I think it is a historic document. It documents the insanity that inhabited and inhabits way world and the majority of the ex-way organizations. I'll be nice and not paint them all with the same brush.. some turned out OK.
If some of it is correct, it also documents the last few ranting sniveling moments of herr manogawd, which geero claimed existed but did not write the details. Well, the sniveling about his "men" at headquarters and his family was well recorded, but not the ranting.
It also documents how geero kissed wierwille's rosie rear end.. despite the corruption he was aware of..
and the former buss driver thinks that he as the ability to teach somebody else how to manifest the great power of god..
he was so fearful and insecure, he had to pack heat to protect himself in a church service, when he read his "epistle".
great power of god almighty?
I think the "psycho" reference on other threads here is a fitting description.
It shows us a glimpse of the arrogant, egotistical, self-serving, conniving and man-worshipping small minds that were and now are in charge of others in many, many ministry assignments or positions. The same kind of minds inhabit many of the offshoots.
It would wonderful to discover that conditions have improved.
I stood next to Chris Geer during the 7th Corps Group Wedding at Emporia. As storm clouds threatened to deliver an abrupt rain shower, we stood ready to make sure Wierwille and Martindale were quickly sheltered and that the Emporia campus piano was covered and protected. Having been around Geer on several occasions, I grasped the immense reverence he held to everything wierwille did.....and therefore, was not surprised by this "patriarch" paper and its lavishing praise of its founder/patriarch and the alleged men (trustees) who deserted him.
Having been in-residence corps and on staff during this unique time slot, those seven years before vp's death, I was able to discern the mystique from the man himself. My personal experiences with wierwille, his visions, his projects and cover-ups convinced me that IF twi were to survive as a biblical research center, it would NEED TO MOVE BEYOND WIERWILLE.
1) At Gunnison, vpw's vision was to have a restaurant near the water tower overlooking the Gunnison River where believers from around the country could come, visit, eat and stay on grounds. With riding stables, white-water rafting, outdoor activities, campground teachings, nightowls, etc. the in-residence corps would serve guests, visitors and the elderly for a unique twi-experience. Never happened.
2) Plus, the retired and elderly believers could *personally invest and own* their own cabin and, upon death, relinquish the cabin back to twi ownership. No one did this.
3) Wierwille had two Family Corps guys with engineering backgrounds and gave them parameters on a *Sno-Way* project -- an all-terrain vehicle specifically equipped to be unstoppable in snow terrain. Never reached completion.
4) The riding stables, the Way Brand, rodeo school, rodeo clown era.......all fizzled.
5) Word in Culture Tent at ROA, the buying/selling of in-house [believer] merchandise, the Way Orchestra, etc. was systematically stifled, shutdown and shelved. The independence of corps fanning out into advanced educations, careers, writers, cartoonists, musicians & musical groups, etc. etc. EXPLODED and twi reined in this independence to stop the hemorrhaging. All of that *Word in Culture* teaching disappeared from twi materials.
6) Wierwille's twig-hopper was wrecked in Ontario and hauled back in secrecy to the OSC Building. In the warehouse, a secluded aisle was sectioned off and a temporary paint booth was erected. Flight Services personnel and a few other insiders were designated to fix the repairs and refurbish the motorcycle. Mum was the word.
7) VP Wierwille's eye removal and subsequent health issues were handled in delicate terminology to NOT off-set twi's stance on "the law of believing" and/or the mog's believing regarding healing. Why couldn't twi leadership come clean? Why the cover-up? Was cult ideology driving the message?
8) Country/Western Music and High Country Caravan were dominating twi's airwaves and publications in 1983-84. Seemingly, wierwille was inserting that this type of music and entertainment would carry the Way's message. Really? Was he serious? Was this boot-scooting music going to reach the youth, or anyone?
THUS......imo, many of us who HAD SEEN the unfolding reality of twi-messaging were NOT GOING TO SWALLOW THE GEER PAPER. The dots did not connect. All dots to *living for God* did NOT connect back to wierwille or his "greatness." How many saw the same glimpses of disconnect that I did? Plenty. That's why, I believe, hundreds were slipping away to greener pastures.
Ever notice.....its the dependent ones who remain.
Dependent----financially, emotionally, socially. Those who have few goals in life. Those who have NO WHERE ELSE to go. Those who've been wounded, fractured, seduced, yet still can't seem to break free from their abusers.
That's why.....I believe the Scriptures highlight 1)Walk in love, 2)Walk in light, 3)Walk circumspectly....for if you don't, a wolf is nearby stalking your every move.
Another thing about the paper.. I believe it to also show geero as an enabler. Supposing it to be factual, if indeed the old man came sniveling and crying about his treatment from the trustees and his family, the best thing he could have done would have been to immediately drive him back to the airport and send him home..
but instead it appears he just allowed and enabled more bad behavior.
More sniveling. More tantrums.. more calculated meanness, especially to geero's wife..
My original thought for this thread was from how another poster referenced this particular piece of "history" as not being relevant today. In other words, what good does knowing that the old ministry was being run by delusional, screaming, gun-toting psychopaths? Things did not improve after chrissy poo exited the scene, either.
I know the general attitude: leave me alone, this is not "edifying".
What difference does it all make in regards to my eternal security (ahem, eternal salvation) and all..
I don't see how "truth" always has to be "edifying".
I wonder if *mr* geero still packs heat when he goes to put on a public meeting..
These just might be the kinds of things I would want to know before attending his church..
My original thought for this thread was from how another poster referenced this particular piece of "history" as not being relevant today. In other words, what good does knowing that the old ministry was being run by delusional, screaming, gun-toting psychopaths? Things did not improve after chrissy poo exited the scene, either.
I know the general attitude: leave me alone, this is not "edifying".
What difference does it all make in regards to my eternal security (ahem, eternal salvation) and all..
I don't see how "truth" always has to be "edifying".
I wonder if *mr* geero still packs heat when he goes to put on a public meeting..
These just might be the kinds of things I would want to know before attending his church..
:biglaugh:/>
It's an attempt to change the subject.
The importance of speaking truth is: speaking truth.
If someone finds that truth uncomfortable or dislikes it, they often find issues with it
rather than deal wth their own problems that are the root of the problem.
You'll get lots of smokescreens and misdirections, all to cover fear.
It shows us a glimpse of the arrogant, egotistical, self-serving, conniving and man-worshipping small minds that were and now are in charge of others in many, many ministry assignments or positions. The same kind of minds inhabit many of the offshoots.
It would wonderful to discover that conditions have improved.
Ham, I think conditions have gotten worse. It seems to me that many of the splinter groups are breaking up. However, please me informed if conditions get better for them.
It shows us a glimpse of the arrogant, egotistical, self-serving, conniving and man-worshipping small minds that were and now are in charge of others in many, many ministry assignments or positions. The same kind of minds inhabit many of the offshoots.
It would wonderful to discover that conditions have improved.
On 12/8/2013 at 11:19 AM, skyrider said:
I stood next to Chris Geer during the 7th Corps Group Wedding at Emporia. As storm clouds threatened to deliver an abrupt rain shower, we stood ready to make sure Wierwille and Martindale were quickly sheltered and that the Emporia campus piano was covered and protected. Having been around Geer on several occasions, I grasped the immense reverence he held to everything wierwille did.....and therefore, was not surprised by this "patriarch" paper and its lavishing praise of its founder/patriarch and the alleged men (trustees) who deserted him.
Having been in-residence corps and on staff during this unique time slot, those seven years before vp's death, I was able to discern the mystique from the man himself. My personal experiences with wierwille, his visions, his projects and cover-ups convinced me that IF twi were to survive as a biblical research center, it would NEED TO MOVE BEYOND WIERWILLE.
I love how Grace roots around older threads and digs up some gems…good for review...in case there’s a pop quiz someday…thanks Grace for bringing another gem to my attention !
…anyway…
Something in what Ham & Skyrider said got me thinking about the out-and-out hero-worship that goes on at TWI. I came across something in a small booklet ages ago – around the time of my leaving TWI – it was about cults – especially abusive and controlling cults. It basically said an abusive and controlling cult is usually built around a charismatic leader. I’ve got some links below that might interest some folks – but I wanted to comment on something I see at Grease Spot occasionally and how it ties into this hero-worship stuff….i hope this isn't way off topic…
Well, it’s basically this: have you ever been in a discussion and find a person or persons who is/are unable to look objectively at wierwille – I mean as you might analyze anything - based on facts, things observable, something that can be measured, categorized, documented, etc.
rather – these folks who are still admirers of wierwille, take it as almost a personal affront if you say something critical about wierwille’s licentious lifestyle, unabashed plagiarism, megalomania, etc. It seems to me the set of values that ignores such things sacrifices fact for fiction. The fiction being this myth of wierwille’s greatness…the only thing “patriarchal” about him was that he founded an abusive cult and he was intent on “fathering” worshipful goons to keep the cult alive.
It shows us a glimpse of the arrogant, egotistical, self-serving, conniving and man-worshipping small minds that were and now are in charge of others in many, many ministry assignments or positions. The same kind of minds inhabit many of the offshoots.
It would wonderful to discover that conditions have improved.
Another thing about the paper.. I believe it to also show geero as an enabler. Supposing it to be factual, if indeed the old man came sniveling and crying about his treatment from the trustees and his family, the best thing he could have done would have been to immediately drive him back to the airport and send him home..
but instead it appears he just allowed and enabled more bad behavior.
More sniveling. More tantrums.. more calculated meanness, especially to geero's wife..
Ham, it seems to me, that you can cut right through the BS, and get to the heart of the problem. I think you are right on the money, when you say that Chris G. was an enabler. I think VPW lived a sin-filled life, and when he knew the end was near, felt sorry to face God, or whatever comes after this life. I believe very strongly that we will have some sort of life after death, and try to remember that everyday. How I treat others today, will determine to a large extent the sort of life, I will have in the afterlife. If I died today, God forbid, I pray that God will be happy with what I have done with my life in this world, and treat me accordingly.
I love how Grace roots around older threads and digs up some gems…good for review...in case there’s a pop quiz someday…thanks Grace for bringing another gem to my attention !
…anyway…
Something in what Ham & Skyrider said got me thinking about the out-and-out hero-worship that goes on at TWI. I came across something in a small booklet ages ago – around the time of my leaving TWI – it was about cults – especially abusive and controlling cults. It basically said an abusive and controlling cult is usually built around a charismatic leader. I’ve got some links below that might interest some folks – but I wanted to comment on something I see at Grease Spot occasionally and how it ties into this hero-worship stuff….i hope this isn't way off topic…
Well, it’s basically this: have you ever been in a discussion and find a person or persons who is/are unable to look objectively at wierwille – I mean as you might analyze anything - based on facts, things observable, something that can be measured, categorized, documented, etc.
rather – these folks who are still admirers of wierwille, take it as almost a personal affront if you say something critical about wierwille’s licentious lifestyle, unabashed plagiarism, megalomania, etc. It seems to me the set of values that ignores such things sacrifices fact for fiction. The fiction being this myth of wierwille’s greatness…the only thing “patriarchal” about him was that he founded an abusive cult and he was intent on “fathering” worshipful goons to keep the cult alive.
I love how Grace roots around older threads and digs up some gems…good for review...in case there’s a pop quiz someday…thanks Grace for bringing another gem to my attention !
…anyway…
Something in what Ham & Skyrider said got me thinking about the out-and-out hero-worship that goes on at TWI. I came across something in a small booklet ages ago – around the time of my leaving TWI – it was about cults – especially abusive and controlling cults. It basically said an abusive and controlling cult is usually built around a charismatic leader. I’ve got some links below that might interest some folks – but I wanted to comment on something I see at Grease Spot occasionally and how it ties into this hero-worship stuff….i hope this isn't way off topic…
Well, it’s basically this: have you ever been in a discussion and find a person or persons who is/are unable to look objectively at wierwille – I mean as you might analyze anything - based on facts, things observable, something that can be measured, categorized, documented, etc.
rather – these folks who are still admirers of wierwille, take it as almost a personal affront if you say something critical about wierwille’s licentious lifestyle, unabashed plagiarism, megalomania, etc. It seems to me the set of values that ignores such things sacrifices fact for fiction. The fiction being this myth of wierwille’s greatness…the only thing “patriarchal” about him was that he founded an abusive cult and he was intent on “fathering” worshipful goons to keep the cult alive.
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waysider
I agree, Mr. Squirrel.
It's like the proverbial skull and crossbones icon. No one is "happy" to see it.
However, it's good to know if you have or are about to consume something that is hazardous so you can take appropriate measures.
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Ham
I think it is a historic document. It documents the insanity that inhabited and inhabits way world and the majority of the ex-way organizations. I'll be nice and not paint them all with the same brush.. some turned out OK.
If some of it is correct, it also documents the last few ranting sniveling moments of herr manogawd, which geero claimed existed but did not write the details. Well, the sniveling about his "men" at headquarters and his family was well recorded, but not the ranting.
It also documents how geero kissed wierwille's rosie rear end.. despite the corruption he was aware of..
and the former buss driver thinks that he as the ability to teach somebody else how to manifest the great power of god..
he was so fearful and insecure, he had to pack heat to protect himself in a church service, when he read his "epistle".
great power of god almighty?
I think the "psycho" reference on other threads here is a fitting description.
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skyrider
I stood next to Chris Geer during the 7th Corps Group Wedding at Emporia. As storm clouds threatened to deliver an abrupt rain shower, we stood ready to make sure Wierwille and Martindale were quickly sheltered and that the Emporia campus piano was covered and protected. Having been around Geer on several occasions, I grasped the immense reverence he held to everything wierwille did.....and therefore, was not surprised by this "patriarch" paper and its lavishing praise of its founder/patriarch and the alleged men (trustees) who deserted him.
Having been in-residence corps and on staff during this unique time slot, those seven years before vp's death, I was able to discern the mystique from the man himself. My personal experiences with wierwille, his visions, his projects and cover-ups convinced me that IF twi were to survive as a biblical research center, it would NEED TO MOVE BEYOND WIERWILLE.
1) At Gunnison, vpw's vision was to have a restaurant near the water tower overlooking the Gunnison River where believers from around the country could come, visit, eat and stay on grounds. With riding stables, white-water rafting, outdoor activities, campground teachings, nightowls, etc. the in-residence corps would serve guests, visitors and the elderly for a unique twi-experience. Never happened.
2) Plus, the retired and elderly believers could *personally invest and own* their own cabin and, upon death, relinquish the cabin back to twi ownership. No one did this.
3) Wierwille had two Family Corps guys with engineering backgrounds and gave them parameters on a *Sno-Way* project -- an all-terrain vehicle specifically equipped to be unstoppable in snow terrain. Never reached completion.
4) The riding stables, the Way Brand, rodeo school, rodeo clown era.......all fizzled.
5) Word in Culture Tent at ROA, the buying/selling of in-house [believer] merchandise, the Way Orchestra, etc. was systematically stifled, shutdown and shelved. The independence of corps fanning out into advanced educations, careers, writers, cartoonists, musicians & musical groups, etc. etc. EXPLODED and twi reined in this independence to stop the hemorrhaging. All of that *Word in Culture* teaching disappeared from twi materials.
6) Wierwille's twig-hopper was wrecked in Ontario and hauled back in secrecy to the OSC Building. In the warehouse, a secluded aisle was sectioned off and a temporary paint booth was erected. Flight Services personnel and a few other insiders were designated to fix the repairs and refurbish the motorcycle. Mum was the word.
7) VP Wierwille's eye removal and subsequent health issues were handled in delicate terminology to NOT off-set twi's stance on "the law of believing" and/or the mog's believing regarding healing. Why couldn't twi leadership come clean? Why the cover-up? Was cult ideology driving the message?
8) Country/Western Music and High Country Caravan were dominating twi's airwaves and publications in 1983-84. Seemingly, wierwille was inserting that this type of music and entertainment would carry the Way's message. Really? Was he serious? Was this boot-scooting music going to reach the youth, or anyone?
THUS......imo, many of us who HAD SEEN the unfolding reality of twi-messaging were NOT GOING TO SWALLOW THE GEER PAPER. The dots did not connect. All dots to *living for God* did NOT connect back to wierwille or his "greatness." How many saw the same glimpses of disconnect that I did? Plenty. That's why, I believe, hundreds were slipping away to greener pastures.
Ever notice.....its the dependent ones who remain.
Dependent----financially, emotionally, socially. Those who have few goals in life. Those who have NO WHERE ELSE to go. Those who've been wounded, fractured, seduced, yet still can't seem to break free from their abusers.
That's why.....I believe the Scriptures highlight 1)Walk in love, 2)Walk in light, 3)Walk circumspectly....for if you don't, a wolf is nearby stalking your every move.
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waysider
On a side note:
He wasn't a "Patriarch". (To his own kids, yes. To everyone else, no.)
I suppose it wouldn't have had quite the impact it did if it had been titled "Another country bumpkin croaked.".
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Ham
I think the relevance of the "document" is that in either case, whether his claims were factual or not, it makes out geero as a delusional nutcase.
a royal rear end kisser.. him and those with the same kind of minds..
from what I understand of the old vicster, he needed a ROYAL amount of said kissing to be comfortable anywhere at home, or on his travels.
Would go off on someone if a blade of grass accidentally fell on the wrong spot.
With so much in common, maybe the two should have gotten married, or something..
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skyrider
Exactly.
Within days of this "patriarch" paper, some of us in my department at hq
were saying this. Wierwille was not a patriarch in the sense of a father
over a tribe.....er, unless you bought into that "father in the word" blech.
One definition makes note of "a founder".....but even THAT is not accurate.
Wierwille patched and plagiarized to build his out-house and the stench
was contained within.
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Ham
Another thing about the paper.. I believe it to also show geero as an enabler. Supposing it to be factual, if indeed the old man came sniveling and crying about his treatment from the trustees and his family, the best thing he could have done would have been to immediately drive him back to the airport and send him home..
but instead it appears he just allowed and enabled more bad behavior.
More sniveling. More tantrums.. more calculated meanness, especially to geero's wife..
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excathedra
relevance? big fat 0 just like them
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Ham
My original thought for this thread was from how another poster referenced this particular piece of "history" as not being relevant today. In other words, what good does knowing that the old ministry was being run by delusional, screaming, gun-toting psychopaths? Things did not improve after chrissy poo exited the scene, either.
I know the general attitude: leave me alone, this is not "edifying".
What difference does it all make in regards to my eternal security (ahem, eternal salvation) and all..
I don't see how "truth" always has to be "edifying".
I wonder if *mr* geero still packs heat when he goes to put on a public meeting..
These just might be the kinds of things I would want to know before attending his church..
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Steve Lortz
I heard POP the Corps night G33r first read it, and I think it is still relevant to this day.
All POP did was raise serious, fundamental questions about our involvement with the Corps and TWI, without giving ANY answers!
It took me nearly a decade to reach closure on leaving TWI, and I started out with a LOT of information that many other people still don't have.
For years after the reading of POP, people knew that SOMETHING was wrong, but the leaders of TWI were doing their best to sweep it all under the rug.
Bring all of it from under the rug. EVERYTHING! EVERY BIT OF IT!
There are still people working on obtaining closure from the ordeals they were put through by those remorseless predators.
Love,
Steve
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WordWolf
It's an attempt to change the subject.
The importance of speaking truth is: speaking truth.
If someone finds that truth uncomfortable or dislikes it, they often find issues with it
rather than deal wth their own problems that are the root of the problem.
You'll get lots of smokescreens and misdirections, all to cover fear.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Ham, I think conditions have gotten worse. It seems to me that many of the splinter groups are breaking up. However, please me informed if conditions get better for them.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Way, I think you are so funny!!
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T-Bone
I love how Grace roots around older threads and digs up some gems…good for review...in case there’s a pop quiz someday…thanks Grace for bringing another gem to my attention !
…anyway…
Something in what Ham & Skyrider said got me thinking about the out-and-out hero-worship that goes on at TWI. I came across something in a small booklet ages ago – around the time of my leaving TWI – it was about cults – especially abusive and controlling cults. It basically said an abusive and controlling cult is usually built around a charismatic leader. I’ve got some links below that might interest some folks – but I wanted to comment on something I see at Grease Spot occasionally and how it ties into this hero-worship stuff….i hope this isn't way off topic…
Well, it’s basically this: have you ever been in a discussion and find a person or persons who is/are unable to look objectively at wierwille – I mean as you might analyze anything - based on facts, things observable, something that can be measured, categorized, documented, etc.
rather – these folks who are still admirers of wierwille, take it as almost a personal affront if you say something critical about wierwille’s licentious lifestyle, unabashed plagiarism, megalomania, etc. It seems to me the set of values that ignores such things sacrifices fact for fiction. The fiction being this myth of wierwille’s greatness…the only thing “patriarchal” about him was that he founded an abusive cult and he was intent on “fathering” worshipful goons to keep the cult alive.
== == == ==
dangerous cult leaders
hero-worship
cult of personality
Edited by T-Boneclarity and typos
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Grace Valerie Claire
T-Bone, no problem honey!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Ham, it seems to me, that you can cut right through the BS, and get to the heart of the problem. I think you are right on the money, when you say that Chris G. was an enabler. I think VPW lived a sin-filled life, and when he knew the end was near, felt sorry to face God, or whatever comes after this life. I believe very strongly that we will have some sort of life after death, and try to remember that everyday. How I treat others today, will determine to a large extent the sort of life, I will have in the afterlife. If I died today, God forbid, I pray that God will be happy with what I have done with my life in this world, and treat me accordingly.
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Grace Valerie Claire
T-Bone, you are right about me reading the older threads, but some of them make a great deal of sense to me.
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Grace Valerie Claire
T-Bone, what a great post!!!
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