Steve was a grad of the 4th corps and was an ordained twi clergy...his wife Susie died of breast cancer years ago and he apparently remarried...here's more info:
That's terrible. Never knew him, but I remember he wrote an article in the way mag in 1979, comparing being in twi with the line in the song 'Woodstock' about we've got to get ourselves back to the garden, or something. I read here that he left twi in 1985 because LCM reneged on letting BG Leonard speak at that year's ROA plus he destroyed every copy of a tape BG Leonard made at that time. Everybody I ever heard speak of him liked him. He was the limb cordo of Indiana once.
That's terrible. Never knew him, but I remember he wrote an article in the way mag in 1979, comparing being in twi with the line in the song 'Woodstock' about we've got to get ourselves back to the garden, or something. I read here that he left twi in 1985 because LCM reneged on letting BG Leonard speak at that year's ROA plus he destroyed every copy of a tape BG Leonard made at that time. Everybody I ever heard speak of him liked him. He was the limb cordo of Indiana once.
Steve was Limb coordinator of Idaho in 85-86 so I think he stuck around at least until Corps Week '86. Eventually he started an offshoot (don't they all) called Pacific Northwest Fellowship. LCM threw a tizzy over people starting to revere BG Leonard. If I'm not mistaken, I think Leonard was present at Rock '85, but he didn't speak. If Sann was upset by that he never expressed it to us in Idaho. He kind of hinted that he was tired of being a top leader in TWI and that he wanted to do something else on more of a local level. A lot of people liked him. He was easy going and unlike most other twi leaders. In my experience, he had an idea of "cool" and he really didn't let you in to his circle if you didn't fit that definition.
Apparently, he had something more in mind than running an offshoot. To be honest, I'm a little surprised. He didn't seem to be conniving or underhanded or anything weird like that. But, it has been over 30 years. It's a shame.
From what I've read, he scammed people by making telemarketing calls (recording them)...he would ask a question that nearly everyone answers "yes" to...he would then edit the tapes so that it sounded like the people were saying "yes" to buying his voice mail service...they would then be billed about $14 bucks a month on their phone bills under miscellaneous...the tip off to the FCC was that he sold over 119,000 accounts and only 12 were actually in use...119,000 times 14 bucks is over a million dollars a month! Multiply that by about 6 years and there's the 70 million. Scheesh! I think I would have quit after a few months and walked away with enough to live on easy street...did he think he would never get caught?
To answer Excie's question, I think he had the ministry of Flim Flam. :)
From what I've read, he scammed people by making telemarketing calls (recording them)...he would ask a question that nearly everyone answers "yes" to...he would then edit the tapes so that it sounded like the people were saying "yes" to buying his voice mail service...they would then be billed about $14 bucks a month on their phone bills under miscellaneous...the tip off to the FCC was that he sold over 119,000 accounts and only 12 were actually in use...119,000 times 14 bucks is over a million dollars a month! Multiply that by about 6 years and there's the 70 million. Scheesh! I think I would have quit after a few months and walked away with enough to live on easy street...did he think he would never get caught?
To answer Excie's question, I think he had the ministry of Flim Flam.
I was thinking, "grifter" but Flim Flam fits well.
i was so f'ing flipped out and sad beyond sad when i talked my dear friend and she said the fbi was after her. i know sann had influence over her since she was like 15 and got her into the way. i don't know his story and why he would do this. was it the cocaine? what? i don't understand so much
I met Steve a couple of times as he breezed through Indiana trying to get followers after the big breakup. Seemed like a nice enough guy, but don't they all when they want money?
I have no idea why Steve would do what he did...other than the $70 million:)
It's my understanding that even though what he did was unethical, it may not have been illegal
Will give Paula your love
AFAIK, it's a violation of the General Law of Contracts to sign someone up for a contract
who has not signed up for a contract. They were billed for contracted services they never
requested.
If there is no Offer and Acceptance, there is no Contract. The people never AGREED to purchase
the services, so there was no Offer and Acceptance. If they HAD, this would fall under both
Misrepresentation and Clean Hands, but neither applies in the absence of a Contract-either
could void a Contract.
So, QED, what he did was illegal.
Naturally, if we had a contract lawyer chat with us here, he might say something I'm unaware
of, but I strongly doubt he'd look at everything I did and come to the OPPOSITE conclusion.
(Someone showing him a little MIGHT get him to make a statement that didn't apply here,
for example, but not if he had all the facts.)
I met Steve a couple of times as he breezed through Indiana trying to get followers after the big breakup. Seemed like a nice enough guy, but don't they all when they want money?
Most do. With twi and ex-twi, that changes once you're an insider.
Insiders often don't get the "nice guy wants money" thing, they get the
"God's protection racket wants their cut" thing that vpw started and lcm
If there is no Offer and Acceptance, there is no Contract. The people never AGREED to purchase
the services, so there was no Offer and Acceptance.
This is sound to me. I'm wondering if it would apply to the way corps. Sure, they signed up for a lifetime of Christian service, but they didn't AGREE to have sex with every guy in the inner circle, did they? Just wondering.
If there is no Offer and Acceptance, there is no Contract. The people never AGREED to purchase
the services, so there was no Offer and Acceptance.
This is sound to me. I'm wondering if it would apply to the way corps. Sure, they signed up for a lifetime of Christian service, but they didn't AGREE to have sex with every guy in the inner circle, did they? Just wondering.
Sorry, this is a weak analogy, as well as a red herring.
There is quite a difference between receiving a product you never requested and finding the product you requested was misrepresented.
If there is no Offer and Acceptance, there is no Contract. The people never AGREED to purchase
the services, so there was no Offer and Acceptance.
This is sound to me. I'm wondering if it would apply to the way corps. Sure, they signed up for a lifetime of Christian service, but they didn't AGREE to have sex with every guy in the inner circle, did they? Just wondering.
That specific wouldn't apply, but others would, or might, depending on how they were presented in court.
There was no signed contract that said the corps was "signed up for a lifetime of Christian service."
It wasn't anything they SIGNED- it was a SLOGAN for the corps.
IF they HAD signed such a document (which they didn't), it would be unenforceable to be signed up
for "a lifetime" for a program, especially with such a nebulous requirement as "Christian service."
That is far too VAGUE. Working in soup kitchens is "Christian service." Mission fields are
"Christian service." And so on, and so on.
"Misrepresentation" is a separate issue, and violation of twi's fiduciary responsibilities
are completely different issues-but applicable to prosecuting twi.
The main reasons to sue twi are not "breaking contracts". That's a little like bringing in
Al Capone on income tax evasion. It's true and legal, but hardly the main reason to bring in
I know this is technically off topic; we're talking about Steve Sann, not twi. I bet if there was a way to sue them by going thru the back door, Kris would've thought of it.
I know this is technically off topic; we're talking about Steve Sann, not twi. I bet if there was a way to sue them by going thru the back door, Kris would've thought of it.
Statute of Limitations is a key factor. Many of the things people wish they could sue The Way for have long exceeded the allowable time limit. The type of activity and where it took place also come into play. Murder, for example, is not governed by time or place. (as far as I know)---- The Sann incidents, however, appear to be inside an enforceable window of time.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Steve was a grad of the 4th corps and was an ordained twi clergy...his wife Susie died of breast cancer years ago and he apparently remarried...here's more info:
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Montana-Family-Runs-70-Million-52M-Phone-Charge-Scheme-323103.shtml
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johniam
That's terrible. Never knew him, but I remember he wrote an article in the way mag in 1979, comparing being in twi with the line in the song 'Woodstock' about we've got to get ourselves back to the garden, or something. I read here that he left twi in 1985 because LCM reneged on letting BG Leonard speak at that year's ROA plus he destroyed every copy of a tape BG Leonard made at that time. Everybody I ever heard speak of him liked him. He was the limb cordo of Indiana once.
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excathedra
Bibliologic lol - $70 million, $30 million - i don't even know how to think about that kind of money. christians should be prosperous eh? lol
i know he was a big cocaine user at one point and sometimes that leads to crazy sexual adventures which it did
i know he went on some corps reunion trip that john richeson ran a few years back (when so many people were "out")
i know a dear friend of mine was very involved with him. i don't know if she went to jail or not
and of course let's not forget he was ordained as a reverend. what is his gift ministry?
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Twinky
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Broken Arrow
Steve was Limb coordinator of Idaho in 85-86 so I think he stuck around at least until Corps Week '86. Eventually he started an offshoot (don't they all) called Pacific Northwest Fellowship. LCM threw a tizzy over people starting to revere BG Leonard. If I'm not mistaken, I think Leonard was present at Rock '85, but he didn't speak. If Sann was upset by that he never expressed it to us in Idaho. He kind of hinted that he was tired of being a top leader in TWI and that he wanted to do something else on more of a local level. A lot of people liked him. He was easy going and unlike most other twi leaders. In my experience, he had an idea of "cool" and he really didn't let you in to his circle if you didn't fit that definition.
Apparently, he had something more in mind than running an offshoot. To be honest, I'm a little surprised. He didn't seem to be conniving or underhanded or anything weird like that. But, it has been over 30 years. It's a shame.
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GrouchoMarxJr
From what I've read, he scammed people by making telemarketing calls (recording them)...he would ask a question that nearly everyone answers "yes" to...he would then edit the tapes so that it sounded like the people were saying "yes" to buying his voice mail service...they would then be billed about $14 bucks a month on their phone bills under miscellaneous...the tip off to the FCC was that he sold over 119,000 accounts and only 12 were actually in use...119,000 times 14 bucks is over a million dollars a month! Multiply that by about 6 years and there's the 70 million. Scheesh! I think I would have quit after a few months and walked away with enough to live on easy street...did he think he would never get caught?
To answer Excie's question, I think he had the ministry of Flim Flam. :)
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Rocky
I was thinking, "grifter" but Flim Flam fits well.
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GrouchoMarxJr
A little more detailed info on how he pulled it off...
http://www.deceptology.com/2013/01/how-to-run-montana-phone-fraud-operation.html
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excathedra
i was so f'ing flipped out and sad beyond sad when i talked my dear friend and she said the fbi was after her. i know sann had influence over her since she was like 15 and got her into the way. i don't know his story and why he would do this. was it the cocaine? what? i don't understand so much
ps. please give paula my love
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GrouchoMarxJr
I have no idea why Steve would do what he did...other than the $70 million:)
It's my understanding that even though what he did was unethical, it may not have been illegal
Will give Paula your love
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Tzaia
I met Steve a couple of times as he breezed through Indiana trying to get followers after the big breakup. Seemed like a nice enough guy, but don't they all when they want money?
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WordWolf
AFAIK, it's a violation of the General Law of Contracts to sign someone up for a contract
who has not signed up for a contract. They were billed for contracted services they never
requested.
If there is no Offer and Acceptance, there is no Contract. The people never AGREED to purchase
the services, so there was no Offer and Acceptance. If they HAD, this would fall under both
Misrepresentation and Clean Hands, but neither applies in the absence of a Contract-either
could void a Contract.
So, QED, what he did was illegal.
Naturally, if we had a contract lawyer chat with us here, he might say something I'm unaware
of, but I strongly doubt he'd look at everything I did and come to the OPPOSITE conclusion.
(Someone showing him a little MIGHT get him to make a statement that didn't apply here,
for example, but not if he had all the facts.)
Most do. With twi and ex-twi, that changes once you're an insider.
Insiders often don't get the "nice guy wants money" thing, they get the
"God's protection racket wants their cut" thing that vpw started and lcm
exemplified.
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excathedra
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johniam
quote:
If there is no Offer and Acceptance, there is no Contract. The people never AGREED to purchase
the services, so there was no Offer and Acceptance.
This is sound to me. I'm wondering if it would apply to the way corps. Sure, they signed up for a lifetime of Christian service, but they didn't AGREE to have sex with every guy in the inner circle, did they? Just wondering.
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waysider
Sorry, this is a weak analogy, as well as a red herring.
There is quite a difference between receiving a product you never requested and finding the product you requested was misrepresented.
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WordWolf
That specific wouldn't apply, but others would, or might, depending on how they were presented in court.
There was no signed contract that said the corps was "signed up for a lifetime of Christian service."
It wasn't anything they SIGNED- it was a SLOGAN for the corps.
IF they HAD signed such a document (which they didn't), it would be unenforceable to be signed up
for "a lifetime" for a program, especially with such a nebulous requirement as "Christian service."
That is far too VAGUE. Working in soup kitchens is "Christian service." Mission fields are
"Christian service." And so on, and so on.
"Misrepresentation" is a separate issue, and violation of twi's fiduciary responsibilities
are completely different issues-but applicable to prosecuting twi.
The main reasons to sue twi are not "breaking contracts". That's a little like bringing in
Al Capone on income tax evasion. It's true and legal, but hardly the main reason to bring in
the criminal.
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excathedra
never mind
never mind i misunderstood
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johniam
I know this is technically off topic; we're talking about Steve Sann, not twi. I bet if there was a way to sue them by going thru the back door, Kris would've thought of it.
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waysider
Statute of Limitations is a key factor. Many of the things people wish they could sue The Way for have long exceeded the allowable time limit. The type of activity and where it took place also come into play. Murder, for example, is not governed by time or place. (as far as I know)---- The Sann incidents, however, appear to be inside an enforceable window of time.
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GrouchoMarxJr
It's worthy to mention that the prosecutor claims there was no contract...the defense attorney does not agree
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excathedra
with all due respect, who gives a .....
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