......"The teenage girls who abandoned their families in Austria to become jihadis for ISIS feel they’ve made a terrible mistake by joining the barbaric lifestyle and they want to come home.
Samra Kesinovic, 17, and Sabina Selimovic, 15, are believed to be married, pregnant and living in the Islamic State-controlled city of Raqqa in northern Syria, Central European News reports.
Dubbed by Austrian media as the poster girls for jihad, the young friends now believe their lives have been turned upside down by their new lifestyles."
I 'fessed much to a friend, who finds it difficult to understand quite how I got so wrapped up in this cult. Really, he has no understanding.
One day we were talking about this foolish young men that went off and joined these middle-eastern terrorist groups. Became suicide bombers. I wondered how they could allow themselves to become so mislead. He just remarked (quite callously I thought), "Well you joined a cult and you did stuff like that."
Not quite like that - but I did abandon family and friends for the sake of my beliefs. Even moved to other countries (none being a conflict zone). And it is true to say that some cult-heads have done totally silly things - committed mass suicide for example.
I do think those young teenage kids - girls and boys - can be helped to return to saner thinking. But it might take a while. How long has it been since most of us left TWI? And we're still working cult-headedness out of ourselves. They don't need to be punished for ever for their adolescent foolishness. But they do need to be received back with caution.
When we got suckered into twi the whole culture of the times was different. In general, people were more trustworthy, so that when a promise like what twi made we expected it would be fulfilled. It was beyond our belief that we could be duped. Today, that's not the case. The culture of the times today is not one of general trust. People are much more cautious so I doubt anything like twi tried to project on us, would't have the same effect on the populace.
When we got suckered into twi the whole culture of the times was different. In general, people were more trustworthy, so that when a promise like what twi made we expected it would be fulfilled. It was beyond our belief that we could be duped. Today, that's not the case. The culture of the times today is not one of general trust. People are much more cautious so I doubt anything like twi tried to project on us, would't have the same effect on the populace.
Relating to what Wordwolf was writing, TWI and their deceptive Material Prosperity teachings. This I understand got even worse under Craig Martindale. Other people may know more about the details of what was taught than me, but I have heard that Martindale did not even allow people to own their own home. Unless I imagine it was completely paid for or at least I hope this was at least allowed when a home was completely paid for. However, owning your own home even with some debt should be O.K. also. As long as it shows good business sense and the debt is not to high and people can afford the monthly payments. So is having to rent and pay a monthly rental expense better than owning your own home with a monthly loan payment? Obviously that would depend of how high the monthly loan payment was and how long it would take to get the loan completely paid for. Obviously the goal should be making enough money to completely pay for your home in full and not having to rent every month. Of course TWI and their greed simply wanted people to sell their homes so that they could get more money in so called donations with a percentage of the sale price of the homes going to them. Anyone with this mind set has pure greed and nothing more. Biblically from the Old Testament God and others wanted every family to own their own home and/or property. Of course, we should have the same thing today.
Relating to what Wordwolf was writing, TWI and their deceptive Material Prosperity teachings. This I understand got even worse under Craig Martindale. Other people may know more about the details of what was taught than me, but I have heard that Martindale did not even allow people to own their own home. Unless I imagine it was completely paid for or at least I hope this was at least allowed when a home was completely paid for. However, owning your own home even with some debt should be O.K. also. As long as it shows good business sense and the debt is not to high and people can afford the monthly payments. So is having to rent and pay a monthly rental expense better than owning your own home with a monthly loan payment? Obviously that would depend of how high the monthly loan payment was and how long it would take to get the loan completely paid for. Obviously the goal should be making enough money to completely pay for your home in full and not having to rent every month. Of course TWI and their greed simply wanted people to sell their homes so that they could get more money in so called donations with a percentage of the sale price of the homes going to them. Anyone with this mind set has pure greed and nothing more. Biblically from the Old Testament God and others wanted every family to own their own home and/or property. Of course, we should have the same thing today.
Mark.....imo, there were many factors to this *debt policy* besides "pure greed and nothing more."
Chief among these factors is CONTROL. In 1981, '82.....twi established The Way Credit Union and, for a few short years, sanctioned loans for which many were utilizing these services to finance car purchases and mortgages. Many staffers at hqs jumped on the bandwagon and acquired mortgages for homes in St. Marys, New Knoxville, Minster and Wapakoneta areas. People like John Linder (8th Corps) were some of the first to mortgage a home.....er, go in debt.
Well....it didn't take long before MANY corps grads were "locked into mortgage payments and all" which, ultimately, meant that THEY DIDN'T WANT TO UPROOT AND TAKE A DIFFERENT CORPS ASSIGNMENT. See, there were corps grads [staffers] who, like Linder,
bought a home in 1981 or shortly thereafter and didn't want TO GO ON THE FIELD.
This was a big problem.......because of corps placements and twi's annual meeting.
How do you tell a corps grad, and family to uproot, sell their home and move 800 miles away?
What if the home doesn't sell for two years? What then? What about the closing costs?
Does twi pay for these costs and extra moving expenses? Who is given special favor to NOT move?
I believe twi had to twist this "no-debt doctrine" ALL FOR THE PURPOSE of controlling wierwille's corps program. Since twi ALLOWED for the creation of The Way Credit Union and the subsequent loans for mortgages......twi, then, had to find a way to correct their blunders!!! Voila......the "no-debt doctrine."
Of course, many staffers and favored insiders were allowed to fly below the radar and KEEP THEIR MORTGAGES......while other field corps grads were chastised for their "debt" and told to sell their homes.
The mortgage-era scenario was a BIG OOPS FOR TWI'S MICROMANAGERS.......and the corps grads were planning their own lives.
Along with other factors, this is ONE of the reasons why many of the 3,200 corps grads exited.
O.K. Skyrider, thanks for the TWI information. What about Non-Way Corps people (people that were not part of the Way Corps)? Were they told no debt on your home and you had to sell it? That could be
My brother sold his home and he wasn't a Corps grad. In fact, later they were put on "spiritual probation" and they realized they were happier and never went back.
They were put on "spiritual probation" because their home wasn't clean enough. As he said it, they were always going to meetings and didn't have enough time to clean their home. (the rental home, I guess, since they had to sell the one they owned)
O.K. Skyrider, thanks for the TWI information. What about Non-Way Corps people (people that were not part of the Way Corps)? Were they told no debt on your home and you had to sell it? That could be :confused:/>
The short answer is yes.
But......to understand twi and its methods, one has to understand their caste system. According to twi's system, the corps grads are the "spiritual elite." [Note: twi-clergy was/is rarily addressed as a body in whole. There were a few years when wierwille had clergy meetings or wrote specific letters addressed to twi-clergy ONLY.] The weekly corps meetings are where corps grads get their marching orders.
In 1994, martindale mandated the no-debt policy to the way corps and staff. This policy [like leaven] was for corps only.....until it grew to consume the whole loaf of twi. In mid-1995, the advanced class grads were issued this no-debt mandate "to keep them sanctified in the true household of God." Soon thereafter, if you had debt [car loan, mortgage, credit card debt].....you were NOT allowed to be a fellowship coordinator. Twi would rather the twig met in a crappy rental place rather than a home with a mortgage.
And, as leaven grows......even applicants for the advanced class NEEDED to have no debt or they were disqualified from taking the advanced class.
Think about this for a minute. ALL OF THIS MEANS that corps grads were/are instructed by martindale/rivenbark and the beady-eyed directors to pry into everyone's finances. They peer over your shoulder to see if you purchased a new car, then confront you on HOW DID YOU PURCHASE THAT? They've railroaded good people OUT of twi who would not sell their home and give up their mortgage. MANY good, people who had mortgage payments LESS than rent payments were told that this was not sound judgement!! So, those years of working hard and building equity were scoffed at.....so martindale's "sanctification" could blossom and bear putrid fruit.
Rosalie has kept to the same doctrine. It maintains control.
But really......time marches on. And, many corps grads do own homes without mortgages now. Besides, no matter how twi tries to spin things......LOTS of corps HAVE NOT MOVED FOR 18 YEARS.
Yet....the no-debt doctrine remains in place.
And....the corps sign-ups are in single dismal digits.
O.K. Skyrider, thanks for the TWI information. What about Non-Way Corps people (people that were not part of the Way Corps)? Were they told no debt on your home and you had to sell it? That could be :confused:/>
I actually HAD a home, free and clear. They wanted me to sell it and move closer to my Twig Leader. You see, my house was 30 miles from fellowship, but only five from where I worked. I was also culpable because I lived alone. Fortunately, I never bought those arguments. Probably part of the reason they booted me. :)
I actually HAD a home, free and clear. They wanted me to sell it and move closer to my Twig Leader. You see, my house was 30 miles from fellowship, but only five from where I worked. I was also culpable because I lived alone. Fortunately, I never bought those arguments. Probably part of the reason they booted me. :)/>
George
[geek joke] Is that what caused "Emerald Twilight?"[/geek joke]
Good information provided by the posters here. One additional simple finance or 6th grade mathematics point also is that if the leaders of TWI can get their followers to sell their homes this is additional money in the banks or pockets of the people under them. With this the leaders of TWI can try to get them to donate some of this money to them. As long as they get more money perhaps they don't care if this also means higher monthly expenses through rent for their followers. Instead a true follower of Jesus Christ would simply want to help others around them and this would include providing good financial advise or letting the individuals figure out there own best financial lives.
Instead a true follower of Jesus Christ would simply want to help others around them and this would include providing good financial advise or letting the individuals figure out there own best financial lives.
Letting people figure out for themselves what is best for them???!!! :o No way! That would be allowing for, for...freedom!
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skyrider
Labeling the honey jar......
Power = Indentured
for = to
Abundant = Substandard
Living = Servitude
Who sets out in life to......1)attend obscure meetings in a home 3X a week?
2) Repeat a foundational class over and over and recruit others?
3) Repeat contrived "manifestations" that have been heard 100's of times?
4) Shun family, lifetime friends and be grafted into pseudo-spiritual ties?
5) Follow orders, mandates and restrictions that "superiors" often ignore?
6) See mog die of cancer.....and STILL refused to discount his greatness?
7) Later, learn of all the plagiarism and predators roaming in midst?
8) Crash and burn of all its "pillars"....and still STAY?
I will grant wierwille with a brazen deception.
Right there in pfal, he notes the trick of mislabeling.....and then, DOES IT.
.
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outandabout
Yes. When I look back on it, I am perplexed and credulous that I ever was such. And I am so glad, even though it was not soon enough, that I got out.
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skyrider
Yeah, outie.....it is perplexing how we were deceived and seduced.
But then....it could have been worse. The youthful mind just doesn't process all that well.
Click Here
......"The teenage girls who abandoned their families in Austria to become jihadis for ISIS feel they’ve made a terrible mistake by joining the barbaric lifestyle and they want to come home.
Samra Kesinovic, 17, and Sabina Selimovic, 15, are believed to be married, pregnant and living in the Islamic State-controlled city of Raqqa in northern Syria, Central European News reports.
Dubbed by Austrian media as the poster girls for jihad, the young friends now believe their lives have been turned upside down by their new lifestyles."
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Twinky
I 'fessed much to a friend, who finds it difficult to understand quite how I got so wrapped up in this cult. Really, he has no understanding.
One day we were talking about this foolish young men that went off and joined these middle-eastern terrorist groups. Became suicide bombers. I wondered how they could allow themselves to become so mislead. He just remarked (quite callously I thought), "Well you joined a cult and you did stuff like that."
Not quite like that - but I did abandon family and friends for the sake of my beliefs. Even moved to other countries (none being a conflict zone). And it is true to say that some cult-heads have done totally silly things - committed mass suicide for example.
I do think those young teenage kids - girls and boys - can be helped to return to saner thinking. But it might take a while. How long has it been since most of us left TWI? And we're still working cult-headedness out of ourselves. They don't need to be punished for ever for their adolescent foolishness. But they do need to be received back with caution.
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krys
When we got suckered into twi the whole culture of the times was different. In general, people were more trustworthy, so that when a promise like what twi made we expected it would be fulfilled. It was beyond our belief that we could be duped. Today, that's not the case. The culture of the times today is not one of general trust. People are much more cautious so I doubt anything like twi tried to project on us, would't have the same effect on the populace.
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Rocky
If only...
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skyrider
In pfal, wierwille notes the trick of mislabeling......and then, DOES IT.
In pfal, wierwille highlights NO private interpretation....and then, DOES IT.
In pfal, wierwille states you can't fake speaking in tongues....and yet, he tells when he DID IT.
What made him the *mog of the universe?*
....1) Who witnessed this divine calling and/or undisputable evidence of confirmation?
....2) The audible voice story was too weak and contrived to be believed.
....3) The "God talked to me" incident only highlights wierwille's dark deception.
....4) No one was ever around when wierwille climbed up the mountain of mogville.
....5) Why was "The Word" associated with only wierwille classes and books?
....6) Every year, the circle of "having da verd" got smaller and smaller.
....7) Those who dissented were immediately labeled with possession.
....8) No one, NO ONE....EVER...had a devil spirit cast out.
....9) Vpee died of cancer....and the cancer-spirit teaching in adv class was shelved.
Yet, today's twi STILL propagates their "living in the true household" slogan.
The grey-haired staffers plug along and smile appropriately....to keep their jobs.
The sunday services are dead zones of going thru the motions as part of their duty.
And STILL, twi demands this servitude TO THE HOUSEHOLD.
What a bizarre, perverted trap wierwille set for the unsuspecting.
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WordWolf
Twi'ers NEVER look around and see the bait-and-switch.
pfal was based on Session 1 and the Blue Book, which begins
with the insistence about MATERIAL PROSPERITY- exceeding
that of the non-Christians.
How's that working out for the twi'ers?
The handful at the top are prospering AT THE EXPENSE OF
everyone else and the tidy nest egg of twi investments.
Everyone else is making do with LESS and CALLING IT "PROSPERITY."
When the excuses are that God never promised riches, that's true-
but wierwille did, twi did, pfal did. That's classic Session 1.
So, to say otherwise is to admit wierwille/twi/pfal say the
opposite of what the Bible says.
Oh, but you can see "prospering" -the people at the top are prospering.
They, obviously, are doing it AT THE EXPENSE of those told to
get by with less.
Why don't twi'ers notice something so obvious, the disconnect?
FEAR.
Twi'ers are afraid. They bought into the nonsense that twi is the
sole group with the truth. They bought into the nonsense that
wierwille was some godly person rather than a detailed FRAUD.
They bought into the claim-which is rather OBVIOUSLY false-
that vpw heard from God and had a special connection with God.
So, they know, on some level, that it's all a FAILURE. But they
huddle around it, afraid that outside twi it is all even WORSE
failures. That's nonsense, but they bought into it, and they're
used to that particular bit of nonsense, so it's what they're
accustomed to. They prefer the FAMILIAR ERROR to a free life
where they can actually hear from God and interact with loving
Christians who aren't preparing reports about their loyalty.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Relating to what Wordwolf was writing, TWI and their deceptive Material Prosperity teachings. This I understand got even worse under Craig Martindale. Other people may know more about the details of what was taught than me, but I have heard that Martindale did not even allow people to own their own home. Unless I imagine it was completely paid for or at least I hope this was at least allowed when a home was completely paid for. However, owning your own home even with some debt should be O.K. also. As long as it shows good business sense and the debt is not to high and people can afford the monthly payments. So is having to rent and pay a monthly rental expense better than owning your own home with a monthly loan payment? Obviously that would depend of how high the monthly loan payment was and how long it would take to get the loan completely paid for. Obviously the goal should be making enough money to completely pay for your home in full and not having to rent every month. Of course TWI and their greed simply wanted people to sell their homes so that they could get more money in so called donations with a percentage of the sale price of the homes going to them. Anyone with this mind set has pure greed and nothing more. Biblically from the Old Testament God and others wanted every family to own their own home and/or property. Of course, we should have the same thing today.
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skyrider
Mark.....imo, there were many factors to this *debt policy* besides "pure greed and nothing more."
Chief among these factors is CONTROL. In 1981, '82.....twi established The Way Credit Union and, for a few short years, sanctioned loans for which many were utilizing these services to finance car purchases and mortgages. Many staffers at hqs jumped on the bandwagon and acquired mortgages for homes in St. Marys, New Knoxville, Minster and Wapakoneta areas. People like John Linder (8th Corps) were some of the first to mortgage a home.....er, go in debt.
Well....it didn't take long before MANY corps grads were "locked into mortgage payments and all" which, ultimately, meant that THEY DIDN'T WANT TO UPROOT AND TAKE A DIFFERENT CORPS ASSIGNMENT. See, there were corps grads [staffers] who, like Linder,
bought a home in 1981 or shortly thereafter and didn't want TO GO ON THE FIELD.
This was a big problem.......because of corps placements and twi's annual meeting.
How do you tell a corps grad, and family to uproot, sell their home and move 800 miles away?
What if the home doesn't sell for two years? What then? What about the closing costs?
Does twi pay for these costs and extra moving expenses? Who is given special favor to NOT move?
I believe twi had to twist this "no-debt doctrine" ALL FOR THE PURPOSE of controlling wierwille's corps program. Since twi ALLOWED for the creation of The Way Credit Union and the subsequent loans for mortgages......twi, then, had to find a way to correct their blunders!!! Voila......the "no-debt doctrine."
Of course, many staffers and favored insiders were allowed to fly below the radar and KEEP THEIR MORTGAGES......while other field corps grads were chastised for their "debt" and told to sell their homes.
The mortgage-era scenario was a BIG OOPS FOR TWI'S MICROMANAGERS.......and the corps grads were planning their own lives.
Along with other factors, this is ONE of the reasons why many of the 3,200 corps grads exited.
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Mark Sanguinetti
O.K. Skyrider, thanks for the TWI information. What about Non-Way Corps people (people that were not part of the Way Corps)? Were they told no debt on your home and you had to sell it? That could be
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outandabout
My brother sold his home and he wasn't a Corps grad. In fact, later they were put on "spiritual probation" and they realized they were happier and never went back.
They were put on "spiritual probation" because their home wasn't clean enough. As he said it, they were always going to meetings and didn't have enough time to clean their home. (the rental home, I guess, since they had to sell the one they owned)
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skyrider
The short answer is yes.
But......to understand twi and its methods, one has to understand their caste system. According to twi's system, the corps grads are the "spiritual elite." [Note: twi-clergy was/is rarily addressed as a body in whole. There were a few years when wierwille had clergy meetings or wrote specific letters addressed to twi-clergy ONLY.] The weekly corps meetings are where corps grads get their marching orders.
In 1994, martindale mandated the no-debt policy to the way corps and staff. This policy [like leaven] was for corps only.....until it grew to consume the whole loaf of twi. In mid-1995, the advanced class grads were issued this no-debt mandate "to keep them sanctified in the true household of God." Soon thereafter, if you had debt [car loan, mortgage, credit card debt].....you were NOT allowed to be a fellowship coordinator. Twi would rather the twig met in a crappy rental place rather than a home with a mortgage.
And, as leaven grows......even applicants for the advanced class NEEDED to have no debt or they were disqualified from taking the advanced class.
Think about this for a minute. ALL OF THIS MEANS that corps grads were/are instructed by martindale/rivenbark and the beady-eyed directors to pry into everyone's finances. They peer over your shoulder to see if you purchased a new car, then confront you on HOW DID YOU PURCHASE THAT? They've railroaded good people OUT of twi who would not sell their home and give up their mortgage. MANY good, people who had mortgage payments LESS than rent payments were told that this was not sound judgement!! So, those years of working hard and building equity were scoffed at.....so martindale's "sanctification" could blossom and bear putrid fruit.
Rosalie has kept to the same doctrine. It maintains control.
But really......time marches on. And, many corps grads do own homes without mortgages now. Besides, no matter how twi tries to spin things......LOTS of corps HAVE NOT MOVED FOR 18 YEARS.
Yet....the no-debt doctrine remains in place.
And....the corps sign-ups are in single dismal digits.
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skyrider
Twi: The Gap in Time 1979-1981
There was a small gap in time when twi, almost, began to soften its cult-like grip
and allow their followers to make their own decisions.
1) The Corps Vet T-shirt
Like the WOW Vet concept, once you finished the WOW program.....you were a veteran.
So, too.....once you graduated from the corps program, you were a "vet" and these
t-shirts were sold in twi's bookstore.
A couple of years later.....twi realized that this was NOT the attitude or mindset
that they wanted to promote. Individual choices and thinking led to life-changing
decisions that were not putting twi first. Many corps grads were going back to
higher education and/or moving into careers.
2) Word in Business and Profession Conferences
These conferences enhances the promotion of business/profession. Plus, many who'd
been a part of twi since 1972 or so......were nearing their thirties and starting
families, so a career move was another step forward.
3) Word in Culture
Remember the tent at roa where you could bring your wares and sell them? For a year
or two, twi was promoting Word in Culture and the whole ministry was busting at the
seams with arts, crafts, music, cd's, cartoon mags, business models, opportunities,
to network. By 1982....twi saw that they'd given to much liberty away and lots of folks
were exiting their doors.
4) The Way Credit Union
The opening of The Way Credit Union meant that twi was putting their stamp of approval
on purchasing of homes.
Note: Twi had to BACKTRACK from all of these endeavors.
My, oh my, how twi reverted deeper into a clenched-fist cult disorder.
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WordWolf
Nearly every time twi based a doctrine on a single verse,
it was ERROR and based on a MISunderstanding of what it said.
Romans 13:8a (KJV)
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another:
Not even the whole verse, supposedly all the justification of the no-debt
policy was there.
Romans 13:7-8 (KJV)
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Romans 13:8 referred to giving people what they were due- whether that was respect,
honor, tribute, etc. The Romans were told to give them that and not owe it to them.
Romans 13:7-8 (NIV)
7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.
This is pretty straightforward. For a supposed Biblical research ministry to flub this
on such a huge scale when reading the preceding verse made it clear is proof that twi
is-and was-lousy at Biblical research and teaching.
And yes, first this was mandated to the Corps as a control measure which ensured
the Corps didn't settle down roots anywhere, but instead let twi dictate where they
would live FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE. (Quite a surprise for people who were never
told, before entering the Corps, that twi would pass orders to them for the rest of
their life, which they would be required to fulfill at their expense.)
Later, as always, this trickled down to the rank-and-file, and twi was supposed to
have entrance into the budgets and finances of their members/"followers."
All of this came from lcm, who would just rattle off whatever fool notion went through
his head, and announce it was revelation from God no matter HOW stupid it was.
Did lcm know anything about budgets and finances?
This was a man who went from his parents' home directly to university, then directly
from university to twi, where he had lived until he was quietly relocated.
(They're STILL paying for his housing and expenses.) He NEVER had to pay rent,
NEVER had to worry about putting food on the table, and only eventually had a job
which probably was more for appearance's sake than not. (He could NOT support himself
completely on the "personal trainer" job. The UPS thing, he probably COULD if he was
willing to live simply- but twi's still paying the bills and owns the building where
he lives.
This was the man who made the decisions affecting the finances of all the members-
demanding they give up houses with manageable mortgage payments for apartments or
houses with, often, higher monthly rents than the mortgage payments.
It's easier to understand how twi made such damaging pronouncements once we see how
they got to coming up with them.
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GeorgeStGeorge
I actually HAD a home, free and clear. They wanted me to sell it and move closer to my Twig Leader. You see, my house was 30 miles from fellowship, but only five from where I worked. I was also culpable because I lived alone. Fortunately, I never bought those arguments. Probably part of the reason they booted me. :)
George
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WordWolf
[geek joke] Is that what caused "Emerald Twilight?"[/geek joke]
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skyrider
George.....was this when martindale was on that "crossing over the bridge to the promised land"
shtick and committed believers needed to rally behind their local corps leadership?
Yeah.....ain't it amazing how many ways they demand you to forsake your goals, your pursuits in life,
your personal decisions.......to force you into servitude?
So, what if the local leader moved again? Were you supposed to be a little puppy dog and
follow him around the state wherever he/she moved? Sheeeesh. The insanity of it all.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Good information provided by the posters here. One additional simple finance or 6th grade mathematics point also is that if the leaders of TWI can get their followers to sell their homes this is additional money in the banks or pockets of the people under them. With this the leaders of TWI can try to get them to donate some of this money to them. As long as they get more money perhaps they don't care if this also means higher monthly expenses through rent for their followers. Instead a true follower of Jesus Christ would simply want to help others around them and this would include providing good financial advise or letting the individuals figure out there own best financial lives.
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Broken Arrow
Letting people figure out for themselves what is best for them???!!! :o No way! That would be allowing for, for...freedom!
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