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End times viewpoints

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Hopefully I am not opening up too big a can of worms starting this thread.  I remember when I was with TWI, they were very adamantly pre-trib. Since leaving,  have you changed your end-times viewpoint or are you still pre-trib?  if you changed,  what do you believe now?

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Bump.

I don' know if cwb01 is coming back, but this is an interesting question. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Frye?

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According to this web site: http://christinprophecy.org/articles/end-time-viewpoints/ , Amillennialism is the "viewpoint  that is held today by the vast majority of all those who profess to be Christians". I have a hard time believing that amillennialism is the most popular considering the feedback I receive on forums where eschatology is discussed.

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5 hours ago, Infoabsorption said:

According to this web site: http://christinprophecy.org/articles/end-time-viewpoints/ , Amillennialism is the "viewpoint  that is held today by the vast majority of all those who profess to be Christians". I have a hard time believing that amillennialism is the most popular considering the feedback I receive on forums where eschatology is discussed.

It probably is, because it espouses replacement theology (which is very popular.)  Can't say as I agree much with some of the other stuff in that link, though.  "New age" stuff has grown so much that it probably ranks well ahead of a couple of "the four major" he mentions (one of which he says is already "dead.").  And claiming there was "only one view of end times that existed during the first 300 years of the Church"?  Good grief... do they not even read the Bible?  Or maybe they've cut the Pauline epistles out entirely.

Know what I'm referring to?
Well, maybe not. Okay...

2Tim.2:17,18.

What resurrection do these folks think Hymenaeus and Philetus were talking about if not related to the end times?
And evidently they haven't given much (if any) credence to the idea that Tyndale (or some number of other scholars) may have a better translation of 2Thess.2:3.

http://bibleone.net/print_tbs118.html

  

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On 7/17/2018 at 7:33 PM, TLC said:

It probably is, because it espouses replacement theology (which is very popular.)  Can't say as I agree much with some of the other stuff in that link, though.  "New age" stuff has grown so much that it probably ranks well ahead of a couple of "the four major" he mentions (one of which he says is already "dead.").  And claiming there was "only one view of end times that existed during the first 300 years of the Church"?  Good grief... do they not even read the Bible?  Or maybe they've cut the Pauline epistles out entirely.

Know what I'm referring to?
Well, maybe not. Okay...

2Tim.2:17,18.

What resurrection do these folks think Hymenaeus and Philetus were talking about if not related to the end times?
And evidently they haven't given much (if any) credence to the idea that Tyndale (or some number of other scholars) may have a better translation of 2Thess.2:3.

http://bibleone.net/print_tbs118.html

  

If your theological position is weak, phrases like "replacement theology" are used to connote a very negative "feeling" toward an opposing viewpoint so this phrase "replacement theology" sounds anti-Israel or even anti-Semitic. It is your opinion that Amillennialism espouses replacement theology but it is not based on fact. The new covenant is not referring to a physical Israel. Even Paul said that there is " neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." I am actually pro Israel as a nation state, but they are no different than anybody else spiritually in the new covenant. 

"What resurrection do these folks think Hymenaeus and Philetus were talking about if not related to the end times?"

The "end times" was the end of the Mosaic marriage covenant near 70AD, not the erroneous view that the end times is referring to the end of the church age in our future. Hebrews 1:1-2 states: God, who [a]at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son... When was Hebrews written? Paul and the other apostles were in the last days of the old covenant when they wrote the epistles and they knew it. That is why James made this comment in James 5:8:  You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord [a]is at hand. The phrase "at hand" was used by the King James translators. "At hand" comes from the Greek word " ēngiken ". It literally means "has drawn near" . http://biblehub.com/greek/1448.htm No gray area there. Dispensaionalists have come up with very creative explanations for these time statements.

Jesus Christ made a statement about the timing of his coming "in his kingdom" in Matthew 16: 27-28: For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”  This statement could not be any clearer. Christ said that some of the disciples would still be living when he comes in his kingdom. Not only that, in verse 27 Christ mentions the "bema" rewards upon entry into heaven. Most Christians don't realize how spiritually significant the events of the end of the old covenant age were. Josephus wrote about a phenomena that occurred in the skies above Judea in 66AD:

"O]n the twenty-first day of the month of Artemisius [Jyar], a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sunsetting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities" Josephus Wars 6.5.3

Hymenaeus and Philetus were making those statements about a resurrection sometime between 58-65 AD which was before the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple in 70AD. Daniel 12:2 mentions a resurrection. Daniel is told it would occur when the power of the holy people(Israel) is shattered(Daniel 12:7) That occurred in 70AD. This is NOT a future Israel. Many Christians have a hard time imagining that a resurrection has already occurred. 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 mentions that more than 1 resurrection will occur throughout human history " But each in turn:" The last one will occur in our future at the end of human history which is the great white throne mentioned in Revelation 20 after the millennium(not a literal 1000 years). The resurrection that occurred just before the millennium began near 70AD is when Christ came in his kingdom(some of the disciples were still living) Rev 20:4:

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.  Paul was beheaded in Rome during the reign of Nero.

The insistence of futurists that the events in Revelation are global in scale disregard the meaning of the Greek word "ge". "Ge" is not the same as "kosmos". An example of a global scale from the Bible is Ephesians 1:4: just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world(kosmou)   http://biblehub.com/text/ephesians/1-4.htm The Greek word "ge" refers to a region. It also could be translated as "land" which would have been more appropriate than "earth" which is the word that is used in most of Revelation. An example of "ge" translated as "earth" is Revelation 13:11:  Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth(ges), and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. The Greek interlinear of Revelation 13:11 http://biblehub.com/text/revelation/13-11.htm

An example of past fulfillment from the Book of Revelation is Rev 6:6:  Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, “Two pounds[a] of wheat for a day’s wages,[b] and six pounds[c] of barley for a day’s wages,[d] and do not damage the oil and the wine!” 

Rev 6:6 is just one example of the conditions within the city of Jerusalem during 70AD siege by the Roman army. This was recorded by Josephus in his book Wars of the Jews book 5, chapter 10 & verse 2:

The indication they made use of whether they had any or not was taken from the bodies of these miserable wretches; which, if they were in good case, they supposed they were in no want at all of food; but if they were wasted away, they walked off without searching any further; nor did they think it proper to kill such as these, because they saw they would very soon die of themselves for want of food. Many there were indeed who sold what they had for one measure; it was of wheat, if they were of the richer sort; but of barley, if they were poorer. When these had so done, they shut themselves up in the inmost rooms of their houses, and ate the corn they had gotten; some did it without grinding it, by reason of the extremity of the want they were in, and others baked bread of it, according as necessity and fear dictated to them: a table was no where laid for a distinct meal, but they snatched the bread out of the fire, half-baked, and ate it very hastily.

I think it is amazing that both Josephus & John singled out these 2 food items that people had great difficulty obtaining in 70AD. The phrase "do not damage the oil & wine" appears to be a reference to a sacrilegious act by a Zealot faction leader of the revolt named John Levi of Giscala. Josephus records this event in Book 5, chapter 13, verse 6 of Wars:

But as for John, when he could no longer plunder the people, he betook himself to sacrilege, and melted down many of the sacred utensils, which had been given to the temple; as also many of those vessels which were necessary for such as ministered about holy things, the caldrons, the dishes, and the tables; nay, he did not abstain from those pouring vessels that were sent them by Augustus and his wife; for the Roman emperors did ever both honor and adorn this temple; whereas this man, who was a Jew, seized upon what were the donations of foreigners, and said to those that were with him, that it was proper for them to use Divine things, while they were fighting for the Divinity, without fear, and that such whose warfare is for the temple should live of the temple; on which account he emptied the vessels of that sacred wine and oil, which the priests kept to be poured on the burnt-offerings, and which lay in the inner court of the temple, and distributed it among the multitude, who, in their anointing themselves and drinking, used [each of them] above an hin of them. And here I cannot but speak my mind, and what the concern I am under dictates to me, and it is this: I suppose, that had the Romans made any longer delay in coming against these villains, that the city would either have been swallowed up by the ground opening upon them, or been overflowed by water, or else been destroyed by such thunder as the country of Sodom perished by, for it had brought forth a generation of men much more atheistical than were those that suffered such punishments; for by their madness it was that all the people came to be destroyed.

So one of the creatures in John's vision said "do not harm the oil and wine" and Josephus writes about a Zealot leader who abused the sacred oil & wine used by the priests for their work in the temple.

 

 

Edited by Infoabsorption
wrong chapter

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1 hour ago, Infoabsorption said:

I am actually pro Israel as a nation state, but they are no different than anybody else spiritually in the new covenant.

My "position" (so to speak) is far from weak, and I think you just proved my point.

https://www.tms.edu/m/tmsj20d.pdf

However, I have no further interest in arguing the issue, nor will I contend with your belief in (and promotion of) preterism (or partial preterism, or whatever else you might care to call it.)  

 

Edited by TLC

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1 Cor 15:20-28

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. 
NIV

Acts 1:10-11

10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."
NIV

1 Thess 4:13-18

13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words. 
NIV
 

Have we or anyone that sees, hears and thinks for themselves seen the Lord Jesus come down from heaven with a loud command and the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God? No, this is in the future and we do not know when that will be.

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti

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5 hours ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

Have we or anyone that sees, hears and thinks for themselves seen the Lord Jesus come down from heaven with a loud command and the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God? No, this is in the future and we do not know when that will be.

Mark, I do believe another resurrection will take place in our future and I agree with you that nobody knows the timing of it. Revelation 20:5 states: " This is the first resurrection".  If there is a first resurrection there must be a second.

In light of Matthew 16 27-28, Matthew 24:34 states: this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.  "Generation" in Matthew 24:34 comes from the Greek "genea". http://biblehub.com/greek/1074.htm If you scroll down to usage # 3, Thayers Greek Lexicon states: the whole multitude of men living at the same time . Scofield was one of the first to try to explain "genea' to mean "race" in his reference bible. Gary Demar's book Last days Madness goes into a great amount of detail explaining this starting on page 183: https://books.google.com/books?id=Tii3ulwqzW0C&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

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Here is Revelation 20:5 in its context. 

Revelation 20:1-6

20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. 

The Saints Reign with Christ 1000 Years. With this the Devil gets put in prison for 1000 years. Verse 7 calls it prison where the Devil with his demons will be placed during this 1000 year period so that they can not deceive the people of the world. We do have deception now, but my goal is to lessen this deception at least in part. I simply do my best to be truthful during this age which is before the 1000 year reign with Christ on earth. If Jesus Christ literally comes to earth during this 1000 year period and walks and talks I wonder if people will be able to hug him as their friend?

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. 
NKJV

 

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti

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6 hours ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

Here is Revelation 20:5 in its context. 

Revelation 20:1-6

20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. 

The Saints Reign with Christ 1000 Years. With this the Devil gets put in prison for 1000 years. Verse 7 calls it prison where the Devil with his demons will be placed during this 1000 year period so that they can not deceive the people of the world. We do have deception now, but my goal is to lessen this deception at least in part. I simply do my best to be truthful during this age which is before the 1000 year reign with Christ on earth. If Jesus Christ literally comes to earth during this 1000 year period and walks and talks I wonder if people will be able to hug him as their friend?

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. 
NKJV

 

I once believed in the literal view that the millennium mentioned in Rev. is a literal 1000 years and that Christs reign won't begin until he comes down to earth for a literal 1000 years period of time in the new Jerusalem. (By the way, if the new Jerusalem is literal and here on earth the dimensions of it would reach into outer space.) An example of 1000 being used symbolically is Psalm 50:10  For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.I see the symbolic 1000 years as in-progress. Christ is now reigning from his heavenly throne with the saints who took possession of the kingdom of heaven at the 70AD resurrection(Daniel 7:22). Everybody knows that Revelation is full of symbolic imagery but then to take certain verses literally(such as the 1000 years) will throw off the original meaning in my opinion.

Satan being bound is probably not to be taken literally as well. I believe that it is referring to Satan's dominion over the gentile pagan nations. We get a picture of that dominion being transferred to Christ in Daniel 7:13-14. Israel in the old covenant days was set apart and a light to the deceived pagan gentile nations. After the 70AD destruction of Israel,(Daniel 9:26) the torch light so to speak was transferred to the gentiles in the new covenant. Not that there is no deception whatsoever in the world but Satan no longer holds reign over the gentile nations as he had pre-70AD. Looking at history, Christianity has spread worldwide since 70AD. That doesn't mean there will never be hiccups along the way. I do find it interesting that Israel is now a nation state again. This is speculation but I wonder if we are approaching the time when Satan is released to deceive the gentile nations again at the end of the millennium:  http://www.lloyddale.com/papers/A%20Different%20Preterist%20Perspective.pdf 

My position seems odd to a lot of people but I think it is due to the ultra-literal view of scripture we've been taught since the 1830's. I no longer wrestle with certain scriptures with those nasty little time statements such as Matthew 16:27-28 & James 5:8. I don't have to change the meaning of Greek words such as genea (Matthew 24:34). Certain verses no longer get ignored.  

 

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If we are currently in this long period of time, stated as 1000 years where the devil and his deception has been put in prison.  Why would we have wars in these centuries? For example, World War 1 and World War 2. There has also been other dividing and hateful things in the last few centuries. As another example, today in the USA we have legalized bribery of politicians, where the donors want a return on their investment. The bible has a number of verses that are against bribery. With Jesus Christ reigning he would be for the majority of people and for all people. Jesus Christ, is very loving to people. 

Yes, with much figurative language there is a lessening of knowledge with added complexity. The word of God needs to be simplified to overcome this. You mention one verse, Matthew 24:34 mixed in with a many verses teaching of Jesus Christ covering chapters 23, 24 and 25. In order to understand this one verse the other verses need to be read and analyzed. We will have many differences of opinion with added complexity in the bible interpretations. Any gaining of knowledge starts with learning the fundamentals first. For example, Jesus Christ's primary commandment is to love God above all and love your neighbor as yourself. I would think that with Jesus Christ reigning in this long period of time stated in Revelation chapter 20, that there would be an improvement in this. The only improvement that I see today is increased technology. This includes technology for wars that can kill more people in a shorter period of time. 

And you mention Daniel's book. Daniel even had trouble in understanding his symbolic visions. 

Dan 7:19-22

19 "Then I wanted to know the true meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others and most terrifying, with its iron teeth and bronze claws — the beast that crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. 20 I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell — the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully. 21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom. 
NIV

Dan 7:28

28 "This is the end of the matter. I, Daniel, was deeply troubled by my thoughts, and my face turned pale, but I kept the matter to myself." 
NIV
 

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti

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There are a few viewpoints that bounce around in my head about end times.

I've considered many viewpoints over the years without a definite decision on one or the other,

without excluding any totally.

Looking at life itself and lives and my life has to be considered as well I think.

And then all this combines in me for some sort of beliefs.

edit? lines are double spaced for some reason, anyone know how I can fix that?

Edited by cman
double spaced

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On 7/19/2018 at 12:49 PM, Mark Sanguinetti said:

If we are currently in this long period of time, stated as 1000 years where the devil and his deception has been put in prison.  Why would we have wars in these centuries? For example, World War 1 and World War 2. There has also been other dividing and hateful things in the last few centuries. As another example, today in the USA we have legalized bribery of politicians, where the donors want a return on their investment. The bible has a number of verses that are against bribery. With Jesus Christ reigning he would be for the majority of people and for all people. Jesus Christ, is very loving to people. 

Yes, with much figurative language there is a lessening of knowledge with added complexity. The word of God needs to be simplified to overcome this. You mention one verse, Matthew 24:34 mixed in with a many verses teaching of Jesus Christ covering chapters 23, 24 and 25. In order to understand this one verse the other verses need to be read and analyzed. We will have many differences of opinion with added complexity in the bible interpretations. Any gaining of knowledge starts with learning the fundamentals first. For example, Jesus Christ's primary commandment is to love God above all and love your neighbor as yourself. I would think that with Jesus Christ reigning in this long period of time stated in Revelation chapter 20, that there would be an improvement in this. The only improvement that I see today is increased technology. This includes technology for wars that can kill more people in a shorter period of time. 

And you mention Daniel's book. Daniel even had trouble in understanding his symbolic visions. 

Dan 7:19-22

19 "Then I wanted to know the true meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others and most terrifying, with its iron teeth and bronze claws — the beast that crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. 20 I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell — the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully. 21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom. 
NIV

Dan 7:28

28 "This is the end of the matter. I, Daniel, was deeply troubled by my thoughts, and my face turned pale, but I kept the matter to myself." 
NIV
 

Mark, these are very good questions. This subject is very complex and to try to explain this in a few paragraphs is difficult. I think the best way to explain this is by looking at the supernatural rulers portrayed in Daniel. In Daniel 10, the archangel Michael helped another angel (who was opposed by a demonic prince over the Persian kingdom) reach Daniel to give him a message from God. While the angel gave Daniel the message Daniel became stronger. Then in Daniel 10:20-21 He asked, “Do you know why I have come to you? Now I will return to fight the commander of Persia. When I go, the commander of Greece will come. 21 However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the true writings. No one will support me when I fight these commanders except your commander, Michael. 

So in Daniel 10 we get a look at the satanic dominion over Persia & Greece. I think that is why God portrayed these gentile kingdoms as beasts in his visions to Daniel. In Genesis 3:14 God told Lucifer: You are cursed more than all the wild or domestic animals.You will crawl on your belly.You will be the lowest of animals as long as you live. So the theory that the beasts of Daniel are ultimately demonic rulers comes into view. The 4th beast following the line of kingdoms chronologically being Rome. (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome) The 4th beast being destroyed at the AD 70 coming of Christ would be the fallen angels over the Roman empire. The other 3 beasts(fallen angels) were allowed to live into the church age(millennium) Daniel 7:12: As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. 

Ok, so if the time statements are true about Christ's kingdom arriving within the lifetimes of the disciples(Matthew 16:27-28), then the beasts(fallen angels) over Rome were destroyed but it appears the other beasts over Babylon, Medo-Persia, & Greece were allowed to live beyond the time Christ's kingdom began. In other words the millennial reign of Christ. It doesn't appear that all evil is subdued on earth during Christs reign if the fallen angels over Babylon, Persia, & Greece are still around and not only that, the evil within men's hearts will be with us until the end of human history(Great White Throne). Satan being bound in 70AD means that he could no longer prevent the spread of God's word into the gentile regions of the world. Israel was destroyed at 70AD so the remnant of Christians left after the Jewish/Roman martyrdom were the light bearers and Christianity has spread worldwide since AD70 but at some point in the future Satan will be able to deceive the gentile nations again. This is just a theory but it seems Christianity right now is in decline. Even America is described in some circles as "post-Christian". At the same time, Christianity is increasing in Israel although very gradually. There is some speculation that Israel will come to Christ en-mass in the future at the very end of the millennium.

Edited by Infoabsorption

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“Get a chart, get a life!”

That’s the total summation of TLTF’s incredible KKKlass on the end times entitled “The End Times”. It’s got more bullshit and double-speak mumbo-jumbo in it than you’ll find anywhere else on Earth, plus it’s all in Wayspeak! A hyperdispensationalist’s dream as well as a guided tour through the private interpretation and interpolation necessary to believe any of this tripe is “god-breathed”. It even introduces an 8th “administration” which you never knew existed before. Maybe TLC can put this all together for us who don’t believe anything Paul wrote was “scripture”? If anyone can, “put it all together so it fits”, besides dictor Paul himself, I’m SURE TLC can do the job. Impress us pal.

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History tends to repeat itself over and over again. So if the Roman Empire at the time of the writings of John was considered to be a beast. If someone with the same mindset of John or John himself was alive before and during World War 2, what would he consider Nazi Germany under Adolph Hitler? Would he say that Adolph Hitler was part of the reign of Christ or would he think of Hitler with Nazi Germany as a beast? Using the same figurative language after I thought of Nazi Germany as a beast, hopefully I would not disagree with John, the writer of the book of Revelation.

Using common sense and our brains, you would think that under Christ’s reign for the thousand year period of Revelation chapter 20, that deception, hate and evil would lessen and not increase. Since I have a brain, I do see love and peace increasing during this 1000 year reign of Christ. However, over the last number of centuries we have had many wars showing hatred under not service to humanity ruling authorities, which using figurative language could be called beasts.

The Greek word for Beast is used 39 times in the book of Revelation and only 7 additional times in any other New Testament verse. Starting with the first verse of the book of Revelation chapter 20 the word beast in only used twice in the last three chapters of this book.  These two verses are chapter 20, verse 4 which favors people who did not worship the beast and says they will live and reign with Christ during the 1000 year period and chapter 20 verse, 10 which has the beast in the lake of fire being tormented.    

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti

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6 hours ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

History tends to repeat itself over and over again. So if the Roman Empire at the time of the writings of John was considered to be a beast. If someone with the same mindset of John or John himself was alive before and during World War 2, what would he consider Nazi Germany under Adolph Hitler? Would he say that Adolph Hitler was part of the reign of Christ or would he think of Hitler with Nazi Germany as a beast? Using the same figurative language after I thought of Nazi Germany as a beast, hopefully I would not disagree with John, the writer of the book of Revelation.

Using common sense and our brains, you would think that under Christ’s reign for the thousand year period of Revelation chapter 20, that deception, hate and evil would lessen and not increase. Since I have a brain, I do see love and peace increasing during this 1000 year reign of Christ. However, over the last number of centuries we have had many wars showing hatred under not service to humanity ruling authorities, which using figurative language could be called beasts.

The Greek word for Beast is used 39 times in the book of Revelation and only 7 additional times in any other New Testament verse. Starting with the first verse of the book of Revelation chapter 20 the word beast in only used twice in the last three chapters of this book.  These two verses are chapter 20, verse 4 which favors people who did not worship the beast and says they will live and reign with Christ during the 1000 year period and chapter 20 verse, 10 which has the beast in the lake of fire being tormented.    

Oh Ok! I now see where you are coming from. I've been out of dispensationalism for so long that I don't even think in those terms anymore LOL.

Christ is NOT physically on earth during his millennial reign. Christ is reigning from his heavenly throne during this time. In heaven, yes, there is no demonic activity or deception, hate, evil etc. The concept that Christ is here on earth on a throne in a physical new Jerusalem is a dispensational construct. Darby literlized the new Jerusalem in Revelation 21 and various passages in the Old Testament such as Isaiah 11 thinking that Isaiah 11 is showing that the natural order of the animal kingdom will be changed during the 1000 years. Isaiah 11 is not referring to literal wolves and literal lambs. Paul quoted Isaiah 11( Romans 15) to show that Isaiah 11 was fulfilled at the time Paul was sent to the gentiles. Romans 15:12: 12 And again, Isaiah says,“The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; in him the Gentiles will hope.” At that time, there was some contention among some Jews concerning the Gentiles being grafted into the new covenant. Paul quoted Isaiah 11 to show both Jews & Gentiles that it was God's plan for the Gentiles to be included. The Gentiles are represented by "wolves" and the Jews represented by "lambs" in Isaiah 11: https://adammaarschalk.com/2012/01/29/romans-15-shows-that-isaiah-11-is-fulfilled/

Jesus was asked by the pharisees about his coming kingdom: Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst. Christ told the pharisees that when the kingdom arrives it will NOT be physically visible to the people on the earth.Dispensationalists have attempted to separate the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven but they are one & the same. If it is here on earth why did John the Baptist call it the kingdom of heaven? John the Baptist even stated: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.There is that nasty little Greek word ēngiken again. This "has drawn near" time statement that is supposed to mean thousands of years into the future. LOL. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Infoabsorption

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I don't have time to research and write now because of my heavy work schedule. However, here is something from the Nelson Bible Dictionary that can be related to the period of time (one thousand years as worded in the Rev. 20:2-3) when Satan is put in prison.

SECOND COMING

Christ's future return to the earth at the end of the present age. Although the Bible explicitly speaks of Christ's appearance as a "second time," the phrase "second coming" occurs nowhere in the New Testament. Many passages, however, speak of His return. In fact, in the New Testament alone it is referred to over 300 times.

The night before His crucifixion, Jesus told His apostles that He would return (John 14:3). When Jesus ascended into heaven, two angels appeared to His followers, saying that He would return in the same manner as they had seen Him go (Acts 1:11). The New Testament is filled with expectancy of His coming, even as Christians should be today.

Various opinions exist about what is meant by the Second Coming. Some regard it as the coming of the Holy Spirit on the day of PENTECOST. Others regard it as the coming of Christ into the heart at conversion. Christ's coming for the believer at the time of death is still another view. Careful examination of the New Testament, however, makes it clear that the Second Coming will be a climactic historical event. The Lord will return in the same manner in which He left. His coming will be personal, bodily, and visible.

The time of the Second Coming is unknown. In fact, Jesus stated that only the Father knew the time. Therefore, the return of the Lord should be a matter of constant expectancy. As He came the first time, in the "fullness of time" (Gal 4:4), so will the Second Coming be. The believer's task is not to try to determine the time of the Second Coming. We should share the gospel message diligently until He returns (Acts 1:8-11).
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright © 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
 

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On 7/11/2018 at 2:25 PM, cwb01 said:

Hopefully I am not opening up too big a can of worms starting this thread.  I remember when I was with TWI, they were very adamantly pre-trib. Since leaving,  have you changed your end-times viewpoint or are you still pre-trib?  if you changed,  what do you believe now?

 

On 7/17/2018 at 12:54 PM, Raf said:

Bump.

I don' know if cwb01 is coming back, but this is an interesting question. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Frye?

Rad, yes it is an intresting question.  I think I will die, and be with God.  I know a lot of people will wonder how I know this.  I don't know this for certain, but the sun has come up every day for thousands of years, and I am certain it will come up tomorrow.  I have tried to be a good person my entire life; I don't think God is going to forget about me after I die.

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On 7/23/2018 at 5:03 AM, Mark Sanguinetti said:

History tends to repeat itself over and over again. So if the Roman Empire at the time of the writings of John was considered to be a beast. If someone with the same mindset of John or John himself was alive before and during World War 2, what would he consider Nazi Germany under Adolph Hitler? Would he say that Adolph Hitler was part of the reign of Christ or would he think of Hitler with Nazi Germany as a beast? Using the same figurative language after I thought of Nazi Germany as a beast, hopefully I would not disagree with John, the writer of the book of Revelation.

Using common sense and our brains, you would think that under Christ’s reign for the thousand year period of Revelation chapter 20, that deception, hate and evil would lessen and not increase. Since I have a brain, I do see love and peace increasing during this 1000 year reign of Christ. However, over the last number of centuries we have had many wars showing hatred under not service to humanity ruling authorities, which using figurative language could be called beasts.

The Greek word for Beast is used 39 times in the book of Revelation and only 7 additional times in any other New Testament verse. Starting with the first verse of the book of Revelation chapter 20 the word beast in only used twice in the last three chapters of this book.  These two verses are chapter 20, verse 4 which favors people who did not worship the beast and says they will live and reign with Christ during the 1000 year period and chapter 20 verse, 10 which has the beast in the lake of fire being tormented.    

Jeremiah 31:14-16 King James Version (KJV)

14 And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, saith the Lord.

15 Thus saith the Lord; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.

16 Thus saith the Lord; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the Lord; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.

Matthew 2:17-19 King James Version (KJV)

17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying,

18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,

========================================================================

I think some people think the idea of a prophecy coming true twice is something someone made up, and that recently.  If the Gospel of Matthew is to be believed, it includes at least one example of that very thing. (If it isn't to be believed, I don't know why we're having a discussion.)

Edited by WordWolf
An object attached to an inclined plane wrapped helically around an axis.

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Acts 1:4-8

4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, "which," He said, "you have heard from Me;  5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."  6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.  8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

NKJV

The above verses clearly say that with the receiving of the holy spirit, which first occurred on the day of Pentecost as recorded in the next chapter of the book of Acts. What occurred in Acts chapter 1 was only some days from the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts chapter 2. With this the witnesses of Jesus Christ will spread throughout the world or as the verse says, to the end of the earth.  The second coming of Jesus Christ is not required for the witness of Jesus Christ to spread throughout the world.  Instead it is the receiving of the holy spirit for individual people as written in Acts 2.  

 And in the next verses the coming or return of Jesus Christ will be seen and watched in the same way that he left the earth for heaven. Has anyone throughout history seen or at least say they have seen Jesus Christ return from heaven to earth? If this occurred in the year 70 AD, with at least some of his original disciples or some of the new disciples brought to Christ still alive during this year, you would think that they would write their own article, letter or book clearly telling about this with this added to today’s bible.  And with this writing, unlike the book of Revelation, they would not have to worry as much about the crazy hateful people of the first century who wanted to murder the disciples in part because of their clearly written writings. The reason for less worry is that the devil and his agents get put in prison, where they belong with the second coming of Jesus Christ as seen in the book of Revelation chapter 20.

 Acts 1:9-11

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

NKJV

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti

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10 hours ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

Acts 1:4-8

4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, "which," He said, "you have heard from Me;  5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."  6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.  8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

NKJV

The above verses clearly say that with the receiving of the holy spirit, which first occurred on the day of Pentecost as recorded in the next chapter of the book of Acts. What occurred in Acts chapter 1 was only some days from the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts chapter 2. With this the witnesses of Jesus Christ will spread throughout the world or as the verse says, to the end of the earth.  The second coming of Jesus Christ is not required for the witness of Jesus Christ to spread throughout the world.  Instead it is the receiving of the holy spirit for individual people as written in Acts 2.  

 And in the next verses the coming or return of Jesus Christ will be seen and watched in the same way that he left the earth for heaven. Has anyone throughout history seen or at least say they have seen Jesus Christ return from heaven to earth? If this occurred in the year 70 AD, with at least some of his original disciples or some of the new disciples brought to Christ still alive during this year, you would think that they would write their own article, letter or book clearly telling about this with this added to today’s bible.  And with this writing, unlike the book of Revelation, they would not have to worry as much about the crazy hateful people of the first century who wanted to murder the disciples in part because of their clearly written writings. The reason for less worry is that the devil and his agents get put in prison, where they belong with the second coming of Jesus Christ as seen in the book of Revelation chapter 20.

 Acts 1:9-11

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

NKJV

Mark, there is a huge misconception among most Christians that the events described in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 and Revelation are global in scale because of the erroneous translation of the Greek word "ge" as "earth". "Ge" is not the same as "kosmos". "Kosmos" is the Greek word that refers to the world at large. An example of kosmos is John 18:36: "My Kingdom is not of this world". You can see this in the Greek interlinear: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/18-36.htm . "Ge" refers to a particular region namely the land of Judea. "Earth" in Acts 1:8 comes from the Greek word "ges": https://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/1-8.htm ( the earth, soil, land, region, country, inhabitants of a region ) It was to the ends of the Land of Judea that they were to be witnesses. This reminds me of Matthew 10:23: When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

This Greek word "ge" was also translated as "earth" in Matthew 24:30: Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth(ges) will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

It was the tribes of the Land of Judea that were mourning in Matthew 24:30 not the world at large. Matthew 23:36:  Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. The Jewish generation when Christ was on the earth were the ones under judgement. Subsequent Jewish generations after 70AD were/are no longer under that judgement.

The people living in the region of Judea from 66-70AD did see the supernatural phenomenon in the clouds but they were not described as angels or Christ in the eyewitness accounts. They were described as "incredible phenomenon." Here is an actual event that was recorded during this time period(66-70AD) from a non-Christian:

War 6:297
 (6.5.3.297) a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it,


War 6:298
 (6.5.3.298) and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for,
before sunsetting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen

War 6:299
 (6.5.3.299)
 running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover
at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise,

War 6:300
 (6.5.3.300)
 and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, “Let us remove hence.”


 

This coming of Christ to the Land of Judea from 66-70AD (on the clouds of Heaven) does get confused with his return to earth at the final judgement.

Edited by Infoabsorption
Goofs

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1 hour ago, Infoabsorption said:

It was the tribes of the Land of Judea that were mourning in Matthew 24:30 not the world at large. Matthew 23:36:  Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Seems you've conveniently blended "this generation" of Matthew 23 and 24 to make it seem like they are one and the same generation.  However, they aren't.

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1 hour ago, TLC said:

Seems you've conveniently blended "this generation" of Matthew 23 and 24 to make it seem like they are one and the same generation.  However, they aren't.

It was that 1st century generation Jesus was referring to in Matthew 24 when all of the events he described would take place during the time leading up to the dissolution of the temple in 70AD. When Jesus mentioned the destruction of the temple in verse 2 the disciples immediately connected that destruction with his coming and the end of the age. Matthew 24:3:

As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

I can't imagine Jesus telling the disciples about the destruction of the temple which was to occur about 40 years into the future and then ignored that event in the rest of the chapter by describing the signs of his coming which would be thousands of years into the future. The destruction of the 2nd temple mentioned by Christ was what triggered the question of "when will this happen?. If Christ was describing an event that was to occur in the distant future beyond 70AD, then Christ didn't answer the disciples original question of when that destruction of the 2nd temple would take place. That means he completely ignored the original question? I don't buy it.

The signs mentioned by Christ in Matthew 24 occurred during that 40 year period leading up to the destruction of the temple and intensified when the Zealot rebellion against Rome broke out in 66AD. The first sign Christ warned the disciples would occur were the many false messiahs that would come onto the scene. Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. Did that happen in the first century? Yep. This segment comes from the Jewish Encyclopedia: 

 From Josephus it appears that in the first century before the destruction of the Temple a number of Messiahs arose promising relief from the Roman yoke, and finding ready followers. Josephus speaks of them thus: "Another body of wicked men also sprung up, cleaner in their hands, but more wicked in their intentions, who destroyed the peace of the city no less than did these murderers [the Sicarii]. For they were deceivers and deluders of the people, and, under pretense of divine illumination, were for innovations and changes, and prevailed on the multitude to act like madmen, and went before them in the wilderness, pretending that God would there show them signs of liberty" (Josephus, "B. J." ii. 13,)

Then Christ described wars and rumors of wars in verse 6. In 66 AD the Zealots stopped the daily sacrifice on behalf of Rome and the Emperor which triggered the Roman campaign to destroy Israel. The 1st Roman army divisions arrived in Jerusalem in the fall of 66AD. The Zealots had a stronger than expected defense and the Romans had to withdraw. Then in 68AD when Nero died Rome entered a period of civil war. A lot of wars and rumors of wars going on at that time.

Then Christ said there will be famines & earthquakes in various places. In his book Antiquities Josephus recorded this about Queen Helena of Adiabene(50-56AD):

Her arrival (Queen Helena of Adiabene) was very advantageous to the people of Jerusalem; for a famine oppressed them at that time, and many people died for want of money to procure food. Queen Helena sent some of her servants to Alexandria with money to buy a great quantity of grain, and others of them to Cyprus to bring back a cargo of dried figs. They quickly returned with the provisions, which she immediately distributed to those that need. She has thus left a most excellent memorial by the beneficence which she bestowed upon our nation. And when her son Izates was informed of this famine, he sent great sums of money to the principal men in Jerusalem.

Were there also earthquakes during this time? In the writings of the first century historian Tacitus we read a description of the conditions in A.D. 51 in Rome: "This year witnessed many prodigies signs or omens... including repeated earthquakes." Josephus accounts that an earthquake in Judea was such a magnitude that "the constitution of the universe was confounded for the destruction of men." He also wrote wrote that earthquakes were "a common calamity", and indicated that God Himself had brought them about for a special purpose. Then there is the book of Acts that records "a great earthquake that shook the foundations of the prison house" (Acts 16:26). There were earthquakes in Crete, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, Laodicea, Hierapolis, Colosse, Campania, Rome, and Judea. Paul started churches at Colosse and Hierapolis. However, these two cities, along with Laodicea, suffered a great earthquake in approximately A.D. 61.

Did earthquakes happen during the 40 year period leading up to the destruction of the temple in 70AD? Yep.

In Matthew 24:9  Christ goes on to describe the persecution that Christians would suffer before 70AD. A parallel verse is Luke 21:12: But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name.

Are there any Jews today who are going to hand Christians over to synagogues and put us in prison? NO. There are no Jews anywhere in this day & time who would even think along these lines not even in Israel. These persecutions described were occurring in the 1st century and the New Testament is filled with those accounts.

This next verse is supposed to be the preterist killer because it mentions that the gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. "World" in this verse comes from the Greek oikoumené which means the inhabited (Roman) world https://biblehub.com/greek/3625.htm

In verse 15 Christ mentions the abomination of desolation. The Roman armies were always an abomination because they carried with them idolatrous images of the emperor, whom they worshiped. And those armies brought desolation because their commander Titus leveled the city and entered the holy of holies, defiling it similar to Antiochus Epiphanes in 168BC.

These events all happened between 30-70AD!!!

 

 



 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Infoabsorption said:

The people living in the region of Judea from 66-70AD did see the supernatural phenomenon in the clouds but they were not described as angels or Christ in the eyewitness accounts. They were described as "incredible phenomenon." Here is an actual event that was recorded during this time period(66-70AD) from a non-Christian:

War 6:297
 (6.5.3.297) a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it,


War 6:298
 (6.5.3.298) and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for,
before sunsetting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen

War 6:299
 (6.5.3.299)
 running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover
at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise,

War 6:300
 (6.5.3.300)
 and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, “Let us remove hence.”


 

This coming of Christ to the Land of Judea from 66-70AD (on the clouds of Heaven) does get confused with his return to earth at the final judgement.

Why do you want to learn about the future coming of Christ from a NON-Christian? Perhaps someone with Greek Pagan Mythology. What is that which you are quoting from "War"?  I am sorry for you,, but I am not going to learn from someone with a possible Greek Pagan Mind. Regarding spiritual I would rather learn from a very good teacher from the New Testament, named Paul. Or from the person who wrote the book of Acts. Or from Old Testament scriptures that do NOT include a Greek Roman Pagan mindset.

The future thousand year period after the coming of Jesus Christ will, among other positive things that are not seen today,  result in righteous governments which is the world's greatest need today. Here is a quote from a NON-pagan book Isaiah. 

Isaiah 32:1-2

32 See, a king will reign in righteousness
and rulers will rule with justice. 
2 Each man will be like a shelter from the wind
and a refuge from the storm,
like streams of water in the desert
and the shadow of a great rock in a thirsty land. 
NIV

In comparison to rulers who rule with justice, someone like Adolph Hitler before and during World War 2 did not rule with justice. And today in the USA, legalized bribery is not justice either. Instead the bible is against bribery in many scriptures.
 

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti

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11 minutes ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

Why do you want to learn about the future coming of Christ from a NON-Christian? Perhaps someone with Greek Pagan Mythology. What is that which you are quoting from "War"?  I am sorry for you,, but I am not going to learn from someone with a possible Greek Pagan Mind. Regarding spiritual I would rather learn from a very good teacher from the New Testament, named Paul. Or from the person who wrote the book of Acts. Or from Old Testament scriptures that do NOT include a Greek Roman Pagan mindset.

The future thousand year period after the coming of Jesus Christ will, among other positive things that are not seen today,  result in righteous governments which is the world's greatest need today. Here is a quote from a NON-pagan book Isaiah. 

Isaiah 32:1-2

32 See, a king will reign in righteousness
and rulers will rule with justice. 
2 Each man will be like a shelter from the wind
and a refuge from the storm,
like streams of water in the desert
and the shadow of a great rock in a thirsty land. 
NIV

In comparison to rulers who rule with justice, someone like Adolph Hitler before and during World War 2 did not rule with justice. And today in the USA, legalized bribery is not justice either. Instead the bible is against bribery in many scriptures.
 

Mark, you completely missed the point I was trying to make. This historical record came from someone with no Christian bias who could be motivated to make up something that really didn't occur. Now it seems Christians are the one's who are insinuating that Josephus was making up stories.

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