New John Juedes video debunking Wierwille books

[Rocky]

26 minutes ago, Mike said:

It is finished for me.

If anyone wants to make further fools of themselves entertaining the idea of bible-idolatry, have at it.

If only!

[So_crates]

2 hours ago, Mike said:

(cue the orchestra)

THE ANSWER IS:

When Jesus cited the greatest commandment, he was quoting from a most pivotal and important scripture for his audience.

Deut 6:1-12
¹These are the commands, decrees and laws the Lord your God directed me to teach you to observe in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess, ² so that you, your children and their children after them may fear the Lord your God as long as you live by keeping all his decrees and commands that I give you, and so that you may enjoy long life.

³ Hear, Israel, and be careful to obey so that it may go well with you and that you may increase greatly in a land flowing with milk and honey, just as the Lord, the God of your ancestors, promised you.

⁴ Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

⁵ Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

⁶ These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts.

⁷ Impress them on your children.

Talk about them when you sit at home

and when you walk along the road,

when you lie down and when you get up.

⁸ Tie them as symbols on your hands

and bind them on your foreheads.

⁹ Write them on the doorframes of your houses

and on your gates.

¹⁰ When the Lord your God brings you into the land he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to give you—a land with large, flourishing cities you did not build, ¹¹ houses filled with all kinds of good things you did not provide, wells you did not dig, and vineyards and olive groves you did not plant—then when you eat and are satisfied, ¹² be careful that you do not forget the Lord, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

The answer is not. Cue the Price Is Right trumpets.

Nobody painted themselves into a corner. You failed to answer Waysider's question. 

7 hours ago, waysider said:

When Jesus spoke of loving God, did it involve developing a reverence for the scrolls?

 

Where did Jesus say anything in your response? How many administrations removed is your answer from Jesus' time? 

Being natural men, I can see why they had to display love in that manner, however we have spirit.

2 hours ago, Mike said:

*/*/*/*

Paraphrasing:  You love God by loving His words and saturating your life with them.

And a little followup for us Christians with:

1 John 5:1-3
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. ² This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. ³ In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome...

 

Note John said keep his commandments, not saturating your life with God's words.

So, by your reasoning, I have to assume Saint Vic didn't love God, as how many of his commandments did he repeatedly break?

Second, Zen Buddhist would say, "Don't confuse the moon with the finger pointing at it." What's that mean? A modern day translation would be "The map is not the territory." Still not getting it?

Get a map of Florida and put it on the floor unfolded. Now stand on Miami. Are you in Miami? (Those who live in Miami and are visiting don't count.)

A map is what we use to find our way around. The with the bible, it helps us find our way around God. It's not God. Just as Robert B. Parker is so much more than the Spenser novels, God is so much more then the bible.

A Way mantra is "The Word, The Word, and nothing but the Word", not "God, God, and nothing but God." So, what are they worshipping? Does that "nothing but" mean nothing, not even God?

Edited July 31, 2023 by So_crates

[So_crates]

35 minutes ago, Mike said:

It is finished for me.

If anyone wants to make further fools of themselves entertaining the idea of bible-idolatry, have at it.

Dude, your mind was made up before you started.

If anyone wants to make further fools of themselves by posting Saint Vic apologetics on an anti-Way site, have at it.

[Charity]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

⁸ Tie them as symbols on your hands

and bind them on your foreheads.

⁹ Write them on the doorframes of your houses

and on your gates.

 ¹² be careful that you do not forget the Lord, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

 

 

1 hour ago, OldSkool said:

Just admit you don't have very much experience loving people and for you it's all an intellectual pursuit where you pontificate this or that....all you are doing is quoting scripture with little depth and scope behind the quotes...It's to be expected because that was wierwille as well and you idolize him. 

 

24 minutes ago, oldiesman said:

Yes.   This is what I surmised in an earlier post, i.e. the written Word aids and helps and directs us to worship Him.

 

17 minutes ago, Mike said:

God told natural men of Israel to love God, and He told them how: become "Bible freaks."
 

Warning:  A longer post with scriptures! 

Mike, do you know what God said about those verses in Deut 6:1–12 that you are gloating about? 

Jer 31:3-33 Behold, the days come, said the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake (sorry - no bible freaks here), although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, said the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

We just happened to get holy spirit before them thanks to the mystery of Christ that Paul talks about in Eph 3. 

Why did Jesus reduce all the law and the prophets into the 2 great commandments?

Because the 2 great commandments are based solely on the love of God – the same love that God poured into our hearts by the holy spirit which He gave to us.

What happened to the law in Deut 6?

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For the letter kills, but the spirit gives life. 

What do we do now?

Mike, the written word is not just letters on a page to be simply quoted like OldSkool spoke of above.  And Oldiesman left out a critical truth in his post – the holy spirit.  We would get absolutely nowhere with God’s Word without the spirit of God within us.  To be living epistles of Christ, we cannot be written with ink in tables of stone, but we must be written with the Spirit of the living God in fleshy tables of the heart.  

[Charity]

And yes Rocky, I know Mike won't read my post  - but I enjoyed writing it.  

[OldSkool]

31 minutes ago, Charity said:

And yes Rocky, I know Mike won't read my post  - but I enjoyed writing it.  

Way to go, now hes gonna read it to say I told ya so....jk mike....

[Rocky]

1 hour ago, So_crates said:

So, by your (Mike's) reasoning, I have to assume Saint Vic didn't love God, as how many of his commandments did he repeatedly break?

Alas... Mike's "reasoning?"

[Mike]

48 minutes ago, Charity said:

And yes Rocky, I know Mike won't read my post  - but I enjoyed writing it.  

I don't know why you think that way.  I always read your posts.
There are so many comments directed at me that there is no way to respond to them all.

You seem to have missed the context in which I cited Deut 6.

The oxymoronic notion of "bible idolatry" had come up, so I asked how else can we love God, but by loving His Word.

God gave natural men, in Deut 6, a formula for loving Him by loving His words. That is how we who have the spirit must start also. How many loved seeing Romans 10:9 and got the spirit that way?

You seemed to imply that me citing Deut 6 was a mistake, because those people failed at it eventually.  But Jesus cited it also as the greatest commandment. You're not going to think that Jesus was in error also, are you?  He might be reading this, so think carefully.

Deut 6 gives us the HOW to love God with our mind.

When we add spirit to that equation it gets even better.

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Mike

[Nathan_Jr]

MIKE "When Jesus cited the greatest commandment, he was quoting from a most pivotal and important scripture for his audience.

Deut 6:1-12"

Indeed, the reference is to Deut 6:5, not this whole passage. This one verse is a distinct commandment to Israel among several in this section.

1. Obey all of Yahweh's laws without exception or else. Obey and get prosperous.
2. Love Yahweh with all your heart, soul and strength.
3. Put those two commandments on your heart, let them permeate every facet of your life.
4. Don't forget Yahweh when you take possession of land and resources developed by others.

"Paraphrasing:  You love God by loving His words and saturating your life with them."

Nope. That's not a paraphrase. It's not EVEN a paraphrase.

"And a little followup for us Christians with:

1 John 5:1-3
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome..."

If you love God, you love his children; to love the Son is to love the Father. To keep the commandments of the Father is to keep the commandments of the Son. There are two great ones and they are like each other. Neighbors are involved, not just fellow believers.

So much of this epistle is about what it means to know Jesus the Christ and to keep his commandments to love one another. To love completely is to know Christ. This will manifest in righteousness. 

 

3 hours ago, Mike said:

God told natural men of Israel to love God, and He told them how: become "Bible freaks."

Except He didn't. He just didn't. Don't take my word for it. Read it for yourself. Hey, I didn't write  the book!

To assert such a fantasy is tantamount to victor's scatological play with the mouth of God. 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Nathan_Jr
Gloves

[So_crates]

4 hours ago, Mike said:

Paraphrasing:  You love God by loving His words and saturating your life with them.

Another flaw in your retconning of biblical history: Not everyone in Deuteronomy had access to the sacred scrolls, so how could they become "bible freaks"?

[Nathan_Jr]

Jesus Christ says loving God is like like loving your neighbor which is like loving yourself. Love completely.

Who is your neighbor? How do you love him?

Jesus answers these questions in a parable that must have been difficult for his listeners to understand.

But for those with eyes to see and ears to hear it is a lesson on how.

 

H

 

 

O

 

 

W

 

 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Nathan_Jr
Gloves

[waysider]

4 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Who is your neighbor? How do you love him?

You lend him your collaterals. Duh.

[Rocky]

28 minutes ago, Mike said:

The oxymoronic notion of "bible idolatry" had come up, so I asked how else can we love God, but by loving His Word.

Isn't that circular "reasoning?" 

[Rocky]

45 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Way to go, now hes gonna read it to say I told ya so....jk mike....

Which he went and actually did. 

[Rocky]

10 minutes ago, waysider said:

You lend him your collaterals. Duh.

Of course! 

[OldSkool]

36 minutes ago, Mike said:

There are so many comments directed at me that there is no way to respond to them all.

Just sounds .... welll....narcissistic....

[OldSkool]

8 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Which he went and actually did. 

Mike....did you? 

[Rocky]

13 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Mike....did you? 

Quote

 

He said this to Charity:

I don't know why you think that way.  I always read your posts.
There are so many comments directed at me that there is no way to respond to them all.

 

And as per usual, he had a lame rationalization for it. 

[OldSkool]

29 minutes ago, Rocky said:

And as per usual, he had a lame rationalization for it. 

Oh yeah...and he reminded us that hes a grease spot superstar with so many followers to respond to ....

[chockfull]

6 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Oh yeah...and he reminded us that hes a grease spot superstar with so many followers to respond to ....

Superstar!!!

 

[Nathan_Jr]

He is his own rainbow.

[Nathan_Jr]

4 hours ago, Mike said:

they all painted themselves into a corner on this one.

No one is painted into a corner. Literally, no one.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Nathan_Jr
Gloves

[Rocky]

32 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

He is his own rainbow.

And a legend in his own mind? 

[Rocky]

2 hours ago, Mike said:

You seem to have missed the context in which I cited Deut 6.

Is that where you want to leave this? If YOU believe Charity did not receive the message you intended to send, what's your responsibility? Are you content with blaming her? Or, do you seek excellence in communication and figure out how to make your intended message more clear to your readers?

[Charity]

1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:

MIKE "When Jesus cited the greatest commandment, he was quoting from a most pivotal and important scripture for his audience.

Deut 6:1-12"

Indeed, the reference is to Deut 6:5, not this whole passage. This one verse is a distinct commandment to Israel among several in this section.

1. Obey all of Yahweh's laws without exception or else. Obey and get prosperous.
2. Love Yahweh with all your heart, soul and strength.
3. Put those two commandments on your heart, let them permeate every facet of your life.
4. Don't forget Yahweh when you take possession of land and resources developed by others.

"Paraphrasing:  You love God by loving His words and saturating your life with them."

Nope. That's not a paraphrase. It's not EVEN a paraphrase.

"And a little followup for us Christians with:

1 John 5:1-3
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome..."

If you love God, you love his children; to love the Son is to love the Father. To keep the commandments of the Father is to keep the commandments of the Son. There are two great ones and they are like each other. Neighbors are involved, not just fellow believers.

So much of this epistle is about what it means to know Jesus the Christ and to keep his commandments to love one another. To love completely is to know Christ. This will manifest in righteousness. 

When I read your post, I felt like I did so many months ago when reading the Absent Christ thread - wanting to learn and grow and know Christ more. 

Separating the verses in Deut 6 that speak of obeying God from the one that speaks of loving God got me thinking about some things and questioning others.  I'm still working it.  

One thing I thought of was the lawyer who asked Jesus which was the great commandment in the law merely for the purpose of tempting Jesus.  Jesus knew how self-righteous the Pharisees believed themselves to be by "obeying" the commandments; yet he also knew that they did not love God in their hearts.  He pointed out their hypocrisy by quoting verse 5 in Deut 6 and naming it the first and great commandment - meaning greater than all of Yahweh's laws which they were gloating about keeping.  (Reminds me about faith, hope and charity abiding, but the greatest of these being charity.)

To me, this is Bibliolatry - exalting a knowledge of scripture above a desire to have charity as it is defined in 1 Cor 13:4-7.  Doing so makes the person a nothing with no spiritual profit gained whatsoever.  

Finally, your last paragraph is why I started the thread about love and what it is.  "To love completely is to know Christ" is very inspiring as is reading 1 John to understand more about the love of God.

Great post - thanks!