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Duke Baxter

Could John Lynn be the undisputed king of Offshoot ministries?

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I ran across this and saw it posted on one of the blogs. At 70-something, shouldn't John be retired already, maybe spending some nice quality time with his grand kids? And the guy's already on his third ministry? Give him credit, he obviously has something going for him.

https://onebaddecisionawayfromhomelessness.wordpress.com/2019/08/09/john-lynn-brings-half-century-of-bible-teaching-experience-to-internet-via-the-living-truth-fellowship/

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2 hours ago, Duke Baxter said:

I ran across this and saw it posted on one of the blogs. At 70-something, shouldn't John be retired already, maybe spending some nice quality time with his grand kids? And the guy's already on his third ministry? Give him credit, he obviously has something going for him.

https://onebaddecisionawayfromhomelessness.wordpress.com/2019/08/09/john-lynn-brings-half-century-of-bible-teaching-experience-to-internet-via-the-living-truth-fellowship/

I don't agree with John Lynn's take on the bible or religion, but who are we to tell him he can't live according to what he sees as his life's calling? That's his call, not yours or mine.

Edited by Rocky

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I can't choose his life for him, but I wish he'd consider retirement.  I'm sure he's completely sincere about his desire to help people, but his track record shows a less-than-stellar set of results.    As someone said once of a fictional character, whenever he wants to help someone, he ends up hurting them, like a vicious Saint Bernard.    Between the "personal prophecy" debacle and continuing to shill  "Momentus" under-the-table while saying openly he wasn't,  I think that's enough of a BAD track record to reconsider his choices.  Instead, he's "doubled-down" each time.     

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1 hour ago, WordWolf said:

I can't choose his life for him, but I wish he'd consider retirement.  I'm sure he's completely sincere about his desire to help people, but his track record shows a less-than-stellar set of results.    As someone said once of a fictional character, whenever he wants to help someone, he ends up hurting them, like a vicious Saint Bernard.    Between the "personal prophecy" debacle and continuing to shill  "Momentus" under-the-table while saying openly he wasn't,  I think that's enough of a BAD track record to reconsider his choices.  Instead, he's "doubled-down" each time.     

Wow, I guess I must've had a fairly sheltered life back when I was in the Ministry. I never heard anything about John being associated with a "personal prophecy" debacle, or even shilling "Momentus" under-the-table -- what were those two issues all about? And how exactly did he "double-down" on those controversies? Wasn't John fired from the Ministry back when Craig gave all the leadership and Corp members an ultimatum that they either had to follow him or Jesus Christ? Maybe I was wrong about that one too. In this particular video interview, John seems to be marching lock-step with Dr. Weirwille on the 800-lb gorilla issues of the trinity, speaking in tongues, and eternal salvation. Maybe even sounds a little more eloquent than the Doctor ever did, but John obviously seems to be still totting the old company line at least on these three major topics. Say what you will about John, he's certainly determined, committed, resilient, and faithful to his personal beliefs on God and His Word. 

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The path of JAL through those controversies- and others- can be traced through entire discussions we've had here, and they're NOT hard to find.  It's peculiar to know to come here to discuss JAL but not know we've discussed any of those before.    

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7 hours ago, Duke Baxter said:

Wow, I guess I must've had a fairly sheltered life back when I was in the Ministry. I never heard anything about John being associated with a "personal prophecy" debacle, or even shilling "Momentus" under-the-table -- what were those two issues all about? And how exactly did he "double-down" on those controversies? Wasn't John fired from the Ministry back when Craig gave all the leadership and Corp members an ultimatum that they either had to follow him or Jesus Christ? Maybe I was wrong about that one too. In this particular video interview, John seems to be marching lock-step with Dr. Weirwille on the 800-lb gorilla issues of the trinity, speaking in tongues, and eternal salvation. Maybe even sounds a little more eloquent than the Doctor ever did, but John obviously seems to be still totting the old company line at least on these three major topics. Say what you will about John, he's certainly determined, committed, resilient, and faithful to his personal beliefs on God and His Word. 

I, too, lived a somewhat sheltered life when I was in the ministry. Lots and lots of information escaped my notice. If you aren't familiar with John's connection to the items you listed, you might, if you so choose, revisit some of the many threads here that deal with said items.

More eloquent than the Doctor? In case this bit of information has escaped your notice, I'll just go ahead and let the cat out of the bag. Wierwille was not a doctor. His doctorate was as phony as (insert phony item of choosing here). Yep, that's right. His "doctorate" was awarded by a degree mill. Of course, it served its purpose well. It lent credibility to the façade he used to hide his elaborate plagiarism scheme. What's that you say? You didn't know PFAL was really a bunch of material he stole from other people? He might have gotten away with it, too, if it hadn't been for those pesky, meddling kids at GSC.

Edited by waysider
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I'm not sure what criteria we can use to establish a rating system, but I would probably have to say that VPW was the "undisputed king of offshoot ministries", at least as it relates to the ex-Way community. The Way is really just an offshoot of B.G. Leonard's ministry. The evidence of that is clearly depicted in Mrs. Wierwille's book.

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13 minutes ago, waysider said:

I'm not sure what criteria we can use to establish a rating system, but I would probably have to say that VPW was the "undisputed king of offshoot ministries", at least as it relates to the ex-Way community. The Way is really just an offshoot of B.G. Leonard's ministry. The evidence of that is clearly depicted in Mrs. Wierwille's book.

Excellent point, I never quite looked at it from that perspective. I'm now changing my vote from JAL to VPW as the undisputed King of Offshoot Ministries -- although I still say, JAL is a heck of a lot more eloquent than VPW ever was. Thanks, waysider

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I guess that depends on how you define eloquent. JAL can certainly crank out the corny, hay seed humor as well the best of them.

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Looks like JAL's stuff is all from TWI.. hasn't veered away at all.   Looks good for 75...  Thanks for the link... 

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5 minutes ago, oldiesman said:

Looks like JAL's stuff is all from TWI.. hasn't veered away at all.   Looks good for 75...  Thanks for the link... 

"Looks" is the operative term.  JAL is not ADVERTISING the points where he left twi because his audience is extwi.  So, no blatant stuff about Momentus or PP or anything else he got into no matter how hard he's pushing it now.  Perhaps he learned from vpw that you can pretend you don't do something at all if you never do it while the cameras are rolling.

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1 hour ago, oldiesman said:

Looks like JAL's stuff is all from TWI.. hasn't veered away at all.   Looks good for 75...  Thanks for the link... 

Hey, I'll tell ya something, if life was fair, JAL would probably be the biggest televangelist in the country right now. Compare him, if you will to Joel Osteen, who's old enough to be JAL's son. JAL is by far more intelligent, more eloquent, and more knowledgeable of the Bible than Osteen could ever dream of. Osteen basically inherited the position he's got now. I'm just keeping it real. And, oh yeah, it proves that life isn't always fair.

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If I could be anybody in the world, it wouldn't be Joel Osteen. Cookie monster?...maybe. Psy?...Yeah, baby! But, Joel Osteen? nah.

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"John Lynn brings half a century of Bible teaching experience..."

Well, yeah, he's been teaching something purporting to be Bible teaching, and for half a century - but that doesn't make it true, accurate, honest or (actually) even Biblical.  Take a verse or two out of context and build a doctrine on it... everybody should try it.  Why not?  There's enough fools out there.

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Please do not use this space to "out" posters' real names or ID's.

People who come to GSC need to know that their privacy will be protected.

 

Thank you.

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14 hours ago, Twinky said:

"John Lynn brings half a century of Bible teaching experience..."

Well, yeah, he's been teaching something purporting to be Bible teaching, and for half a century - but that doesn't make it true, accurate, honest or (actually) even Biblical.  Take a verse or two out of context and build a doctrine on it... everybody should try it.  Why not?  There's enough fools out there.

Have you read the book, "One God & One Lord"? It was written by three people that includes John Lynn. It is very well researched and readable. After reading most of the book, I shared some of the content with a Christian that participates in the Catholic church. She agreed with what was explained to her and saw it as factual and godly or spiritual. John can be factual especially when he gets editing from other people. He has learned from other people including someone named Mark Sanguinetti. I wonder who that is?

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1 hour ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

Have you read the book, "One God & One Lord"? It was written by three people that includes John Lynn. It is very well researched and readable. After reading most of the book, I shared some of the content with a Christian that participates in the Catholic church. She agreed with what was explained to her and saw it as factual and godly or spiritual. John can be factual especially when he gets editing from other people. He has learned from other people including someone named Mark Sanguinetti. I wonder who that is?

I guess I admire and respect JAL for still being out there 50+ years later, presenting his knowledge of the Bible to the best of his ability. Is the guy 100 percent accurate on every single jot and tittle he says and writes about the Bible? Probably not, but who is? I think Billy Graham's ministry lasted a little longer than what John's got now, and he probably encountered a few mistakes and inaccuracies along the road. But I tend to think that both Graham and JAL were/are a little more right than they were wrong when it came to the Bible, and then willing to humble themselves and repent to get back on the right track. I don't mean to sound too religious here but I think we're all approaching a day which a lot of folks had wished that they had done more to share God's Word and maybe help others obtain salvation -- or something -- versus just sitting on the sidelines doing nothing. In the famous last words of one of my favorite Rock stars, David Cassidy, former lead singer of the Partridge Family, "There's just too much wasted time." Well, that's my preaching rant for today, I'll shut-up at least till tomorrow.

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1 hour ago, Duke Baxter said:

I guess I admire and respect JAL for still being out there 50+ years later, presenting his knowledge [particular private interpretation] of the Bible to the best of his ability. Is the guy 100 percent accurate on every single jot and tittle he says and writes about the Bible? Probably not, but who is? I think Billy Graham's ministry lasted a little longer than what John's got now, and he probably encountered a few mistakes and inaccuracies along the road. But I tend to think that both Graham and JAL were/are a little more right than they were wrong when it came to the Bible, and then willing to humble themselves and repent to get back on the right track. I don't mean to sound too religious here but I think we're all approaching a day which a lot of folks had wished that they had done more to share God's Word and maybe help others obtain salvation -- or something -- versus just sitting on the sidelines doing nothing. In the famous last words of one of my favorite Rock stars, David Cassidy, former lead singer of the Partridge Family, "There's just too much wasted time." Well, that's my preaching rant for today, I'll shut-up at least till tomorrow.

Carry on.

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4 hours ago, Duke Baxter said:

(snip)

I think Billy Graham's ministry lasted a little longer than what John's got now, and he probably encountered a few mistakes and inaccuracies along the road. But I tend to think that both Graham and JAL were/are a little more right than they were wrong when it came to the Bible, and then willing to humble themselves and repent to get back on the right track.

(snip)

I can't speak about Billy Graham with any real knowledge. About JAL, I know he never apologized for his "personal prophecy" debacle- he just quietly dropped it some time after it blew up in his face and messed up HIS OWN life.  Not one apology for anyone else harmed by it.  As for Momentus, he stopped talking about it publickly but continued to try to get more recruits for it quietly.  He's also made some general insults to the posters here and never apologized for that. Finally, he claimed he was available provided people contacted him entirely on his terms- privately and using their legal names- but we had posters who did that and never got a response from him.   If that was all, it would be enough to keep me from trying to build him a statue or anything.

One last thing he did was this thing where he made comments to people, then had them posted here without him posting them, which allowed him to disavow responsibility while advertising his paid classes and things to the posters and readers here (other messageboards, also, for that matter.)

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7 hours ago, WordWolf said:

I can't speak about Billy Graham with any real knowledge. About JAL, I know he never apologized for his "personal prophecy" debacle- he just quietly dropped it some time after it blew up in his face and messed up HIS OWN life.  Not one apology for anyone else harmed by it.  As for Momentus, he stopped talking about it publickly but continued to try to get more recruits for it quietly.  He's also made some general insults to the posters here and never apologized for that. Finally, he claimed he was available provided people contacted him entirely on his terms- privately and using their legal names- but we had posters who did that and never got a response from him.   If that was all, it would be enough to keep me from trying to build him a statue or anything.

One last thing he did was this thing where he made comments to people, then had them posted here without him posting them, which allowed him to disavow responsibility while advertising his paid classes and things to the posters and readers here (other messageboards, also, for that matter.)

When you had mentioned John's association with Personal Prophecy & Momentus earlier in this Thread, I went ahead & did a Google search on all the relevant Keywords. There was a lot of legal mumbo-jumbo involving John's 2nd ministry that was just plain bizarre, & if John was taking the advice of some type of "female prophetess" in that organization over his then-wife then, yeah, that was pretty poor judgement on JAL's part. The reason I'm not quite ready to throw JAL under the proverbial bus just yet is because everything I read about that whole situation had some involvement with JAL's ex-wife. As the old cliche goes, there are 3 sides to every story: there's HIS side, there's HER side, and then you've got THE TRUTH.  And I would just add to that cliche, it's especially true when you're talking about a couple going through a Divorce -- "THE TRUTH", all of a sudden, starts to become very vague and ambiguous. As far as JAL's current ministry  (The Living Truth Fellowship) goes, that might lead a handful of people to Jesus and get them "born-again" but as for myself, I need a church where I can look the minister in the eye and talk to him face-to-face. Churches (or Ministries) based from the Internet or Cable TV (or Satellite TV) may be the new trend for the 21st century, but it just ain't my cup of tea.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Duke Baxter said:

When you had mentioned John's association with Personal Prophecy & Momentus earlier in this Thread, I went ahead & did a Google search on all the relevant Keywords. There was a lot of legal mumbo-jumbo involving John's 2nd ministry that was just plain bizarre, & if John was taking the advice of some type of "female prophetess" in that organization over his then-wife then, yeah, that was pretty poor judgement on JAL's part. The reason I'm not quite ready to throw JAL under the proverbial bus just yet is because everything I read about that whole situation had some involvement with JAL's ex-wife. As the old cliche goes, there are 3 sides to every story: there's HIS side, there's HER side, and then you've got THE TRUTH.  And I would just add to that cliche, it's especially true when you're talking about a couple going through a Divorce -- "THE TRUTH", all of a sudden, starts to become very vague and ambiguous. As far as JAL's current ministry  (The Living Truth Fellowship) goes, that might lead a handful of people to Jesus and get them "born-again" but as for myself, I need a church where I can look the minister in the eye and talk to him face-to-face. Churches (or Ministries) based from the Internet or Cable TV (or Satellite TV) may be the new trend for the 21st century, but it just ain't my cup of tea.

 

 

Interesting and I remember this now somewhat, but not with the details about the doctrinal and/or practical errors that John's Ex-wife saw and spoke against, but that John did not speak against like his Ex-wife. I also saw the doctrinal and/or practical errors, but do not remember the details of them today as this was years ago.  The Ex-wife tried to correct the poophetess, but the poophetess did not listen to John's Ex-wife and instead was power and authority hungry.  Yes, John made a mistake and sided with the poophetess. instead of John's more doctrinally knowledgeable and practical Ex-wife.  Yes, we all make mistakes. After reading what John's Ex-wife had written on this subject, I saw that John's Ex-wife  regarding biblical doctrine was KNOWLEDGEABLE and PRACTICAL. I then contacted John since I know him and consider him a friend. John listened to me about his Ex-wife and soon after again contacted his Ex-wife. As a result they got back together again. and remarried. His then wife and not Ex-wife called me on the phone and thanked me. 

We all make mistakes and no one is perfect on the planet. The only perfect one is Jesus Christ. However, at least John corrected his mistake with the help of his Ex-wife and someone named Mark Sanguinetti. Who is that person?

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti
Just curios now, but does anyone remember the details of the doctrinal and practical errors, which John's Ex-wife saw and opposed, but John did not oppose?

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I wasn't going to get into specifics about what that PP nonsense COST him personally.  It's fair game to note that- if not FOR that cost- he would STILL be pushing that doctrine, no matter how much it hurt OTHER people-  none of whom got an apology.    We had threads here where we showed how the whole PP thing didn't match the Bible, and we had a thread where we outlined exactly how it worked (there's nothing supernatural about it.)    JAL couldn't see any of that from the beginning,    That doesn't bode well for his skill as a Christian or Biblical leader.   (I'm not trying to lead something, and I saw it immediately and with little effort.)   At the same time, he was still trying to get us to follow where he led.  He neither led wisely nor saw that he was NOT leading wisely.  (I can tell when I'm out of my depth or wrestling outside my weight-class.)    A surfeit of pride-  or a dearth of aptitude and skill-  could explain that, but it certainly doesn't EXCUSE that.   

That doesn't even get into the Momentus debacle that he's STILL pushing-  and has the brains to do silently.  This speaks well for his brains- while speaking POORLY for his INTEGRITY.  He learned from vpw to keep inconvenient truths from the public eye, but not to stop doing the wrong thing- just how to keep from getting caught.

 

Furthermore, his "internet ministry" works well for him on paper.  He has low overhead, can solicit funds, and doesn't have to actually get involved with real people other than by serving up empty platitudes-  like in twi.    The man has made a few cosmetic changes, but is mostly the same alleged "leader" he was in twi, with little actual GROWTH since then.  I've gotten decades more wisdom, why hasn't he?

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8 minutes ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

Interesting and I remember this now somewhat, but not with the details about the doctrinal and/or practical errors that John's Ex-wife saw and spoke against, but that John did not speak against like his Ex-wife. I also saw the doctrinal and/or practical errors, but do not remember the details of them today as this was years ago.  The Ex-wife tried to correct the poophetess, but the poophetess did not listen to John's Ex-wife and instead was power and authority hungry.  Yes, John made a mistake and sided with the poophetess. instead of John's more doctrinally knowledgeable and practical Ex-wife.  Yes, we all make mistakes. After reading what John's Ex-wife had written on this subject, I saw that John's Ex-wife  regarding biblical doctrine was KNOWLEDGEABLE and PRACTICAL. I then contacted John since I know him and consider him a friend. John listened to me about his Ex-wife and soon after again contacted his Ex-wife. As a result they got back together again. and remarried. His then wife and not Ex-wife called me on the phone and thanked me. 

We all make mistakes and no one is perfect on the planet. The only perfect one is Jesus Christ. However, at least John corrected his mistake with the help of his Ex-wife and someone named Mark Sanguinetti. Who is that person?

I know, if I had to choose one or the other to "follow", I'd choose MS over JAL.  He has a lower track record of major boondoggles,  and a LOT more humility.  He also gets involved in people's lives and actually cares about them, and not just what they can do for him.  A few  minutes in a room with one and the other make it obvious they view people completely differently- you can feel the difference and see it for yourself.

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Moderating, lately, has become a full time job. I am not entirely sure why, but whatever.

We have been lax in allowing a particular rule violation in these threads (a rule that I am confident was created to address MY OWN awful behavior in this regard). 

Quote

"distorting another poster's name to insult or ridicule"

This needs to be extended to all people, not just posters. His name is John Lynn. It is not "Lynne-sanity." While JAL is not here often, he has registered with GSC and has posted here on several occasions.

Now, we know that there is a fine line between insult/ridicule and legitimate satire, and we want to be careful not to stifle legitimate and creative expressions of frustration with TWI. So we'll tread as lightly as we can on this one. In this particular case, we are changing the name of the thread to handle the rule violation. In the future, we ask that you all refrain from distorting people's names to insult or ridicule them.

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Just curios now, but does anyone remember the details of the doctrinal and practical errors, which John's Ex-wife saw and opposed, but John did not oppose?

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