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Could John Lynn be the undisputed king of Offshoot ministries?


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On 8/11/2019 at 12:12 AM, Duke Baxter said:

Wow, I guess I must've had a fairly sheltered life back when I was in the Ministry. I never heard anything about John being associated with a "personal prophecy" debacle, or even shilling "Momentus" under-the-table -- what were those two issues all about? And how exactly did he "double-down" on those controversies? Wasn't John fired from the Ministry back when Craig gave all the leadership and Corp members an ultimatum that they either had to follow him or Jesus Christ? Maybe I was wrong about that one too. In this particular video interview, John seems to be marching lock-step with Dr. Weirwille on the 800-lb gorilla issues of the trinity, speaking in tongues, and eternal salvation. Maybe even sounds a little more eloquent than the Doctor ever did, but John obviously seems to be still totting the old company line at least on these three major topics. Say what you will about John, he's certainly determined, committed, resilient, and faithful to his personal beliefs on God and His Word. 

DB, perhaps.   But, is he right?  

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Lotza things kids, Having been around during that period of Lynn 's exit and having spoken with him twice the year he skated out, John Lynn's "quitting/getting fired" from the Way Ministry was ki

9. We do not believe that “faith” is a force generated by the human mind that automatically brings either good or bad into one’s life. To me, that's a very bizarre statement, and reads like it's

Hi Robinette, Your posts have brought up some interesting points and after giving them some thought I wanted to address a few things. God does forgive – but he does not always remove the con

On 8/11/2019 at 8:54 PM, Duke Baxter said:

Hey, I'll tell ya something, if life was fair, JAL would probably be the biggest televangelist in the country right now. Compare him, if you will to Joel Osteen, who's old enough to be JAL's son. JAL is by far more intelligent, more eloquent, and more knowledgeable of the Bible than Osteen could ever dream of. Osteen basically inherited the position he's got now. I'm just keeping it real. And, oh yeah, it proves that life isn't always fair.

DB, I personally have a problem with many televangelists.  I think far to many of them are power hungry, and money mad. JO, for example lives in a multi-million home, and drives a Ferrari.  Is he teaching for the good of society, or for his personal gain?  I think he is in love with living the high life.  Many of his followers can barely make ends meet, yet he throws money away on fancy adult toys.  Jerry Falwell recently resigned from Liberty University in Va,  and reportedly received a multimillion farewell cushion.  I think Olsteen, and others of his ilk, are grifters.  Just my opinion. 

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5 hours ago, T-Bone said:

There are issues with “let’s do the math”:  Counting the years since con artists and false teachers were in power and guessing how to quantify and qualify those still suffering from their cult experience is NOT a viable math problem since you lack relevant facts – guesswork is not facts…Also missing is the clinical research to support your thesis that given X amount of time people should be "over" their bad experiences…Your “thesis” might also suggest there is a no-regard-for-the-thoughts-and-feelings-of-others problem in your own thought process...to expect Grease Spotters  to “get over it ” is a callous and cold thing to say…

Remembering the Holocaust is more than honoring the lives lost and families shattered – among other things here’s what several people have said after reading Holocaust survivor Elie Wisel’s “Night”: “ it is vitally important to inform our children so that in their turn they will stand up and not let such atrocities happen again.” … “It'd kind of disturbing to see and hear how these people where treated, but people need to know this stuff. They really do. Especially racial people who don't like people of a different religion or belief. Knowing this makes us think clearer and realize that we are our own enemy”…“The holocaust is relevant to today because there are still situations that occur around the world many are similar to the holocaust that many of us are unaware of, that’s why we need more people like Mr. Elie because we know so little about what he and the others went through those years”

( from   from  U.S. Holocaust Museum Online – how is the Holocaust relevant today                                       )

The main reason I post on Grease Spot (and I don’t think I’m alone on this) is because there are reasonable and good folks still captivated by a cult mindset – whether they're in The Way International or some splinter group - who check out Grease Spot and hopefully something clicks in their minds and a yearning to think freely takes its first deep breath in.

First off, if you're trying to get someone to settle their differences with somebody else, shouldn't you try to get them to confront their demons, face-to-face? The former Way leaders who often get trashed on this forum by people identifying themselves as, "T-Bone", or "Mickey Mouse" probably wouldn't be too inclined to come here on the Internet if all the criticisms are from a one-way street when they have absolutely no clue who you guys are behind your pseudonyms.

Has anybody here ever invited Chris Geer or Craig Martindale to come on Grease Spot Cafe to address some long lingering concerns? If not, why not? Those guys might tell you to go BLEEP yourselves, but I don't believe either of them would shoot anybody for just asking. The absolute worst thing that could happen is they'd probably just say "No" to you -- Is that too horrifying of an experience for you guys to imagine?

Bottom Line is, I don't think you're handling any counseling opportunities in accordance with  Christian or Biblical standards. Also, do some of these folks coming to Grease Spot Cafe to vent their Tales of Woe about the Way Ministry, have any legal grounds to sue them in Civil Court? If so, why not just recommend them to a lawyer who'd handle their case for a nominal fee? Or maybe help establish a GoFundMe account for them?

Taunting the Way leaders, or swearing at them on the Internet while hiding behind pseudonyms isn't helping anything, it's just making things worse. If folks are still experiencing nightmares and flashbacks 20+ years after leaving the Way Ministry, they probably ought to seek the help of a Psychiatrist and maybe ask them if they could prescribe some medication for them. Actually, there's no shame in doing something like that if you know you need the help.

Besides that, the Way Ministry certainly isn't the first church group in American history to find leaders sexually exploiting its membership and it probably won't be the last. What about the PTL Club, or Jimmy Swaggart, or Marcus Lamb, or more recently, Jerry Falwell Jr.? Heck, for that matter, what about the Baptist church down the street in your neighborhood? There are stories ALL THE TIME about local Pastors, Priests, Rabbis, etc., sexually exploiting their members -- please don't patronize everybody here by claiming that situation is ONLY unique to the Way Ministry.

Lastly -- speaking about Patronizing everybody here on Grease Spot Cafe -- the Way Ministry, even in its "hey day" back in the late 70's thru early 80's was NEVER as big in membership as y'all are claiming it was/is. The Way was NEVER as big as the Unification Church (Moonies), or Hari Krishnas, or Scientology. Nor did it ever have a membership as big as the Mormons, or the Jehovah Witnesses. If I'm wrong, why didn't incidents like, The Passing of the Patriarch, or Craig Martindale's sexual assault lawsuits ever make the National Press? The folks I mentioned in the previous paragraph all made the National Press for their incidents, so why didn't the Way Ministry follow suit? Also, weren't there a handful of people who authored books about the demise of the Way Ministry? If so, how come none of those publications ever made the New York Times Best Seller List, or even, the Amazon Best Seller List?

So many questions, so few answers.

P.S.  In response to Rocky's question: I'm NOT still active in the Way Ministry -- I stopped fellow-shipping with them in '86.

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13 minutes ago, Robinette Byden said:

First off, if you're trying to get someone to settle their differences with somebody else, shouldn't you try to get them to confront their demons, face-to-face?

Do you really assume/surmise that telling the stories people tell on GSC are about "trying to get someone to settle their differences with someone else?

Why might you have a hard time grasping that telling one's story or stories is about anything other than telling one's stories?

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First, to correct a few factual inaccuracies at the same time.....

 

After vpw had unilaterally appointed lcm as his successor, and vpw's health waned,  vpw found out that the system that embraced him while he was The Big Cheese With No Accountability now embraced lcm, and vpw found himself as irrelevant as he'd made everyone else.  Unable to accept being treated like everyone else, vpw ran to Gartmore and cried on Geer's shoulder.  According to CG- whose account I believe reflected what happened-  vpw spent a considerable amount of time making all sorts of predictions (which all failed to come to pass)  and claims that the current leaders of twi had now stepped out from serving God, etc, etc.  

CG wrote all this out as a 40-page letter, "The Passing of the Patriarch."  He insisted on confronting the top leaders with it, and when he addressed the in-residence Corps with the same letter, he brandished a pistol.  (He loved using dogs or guns to try to intimidate people.)   The 40-page letter goes on at great length but never makes any SPECIFICS.  If it was addressing real problems, why couldn't it name even ONE problem that needed fixing?  It was all vague comments.  

Around this time, one or two PRINCIPLED leaders (RD and possibly one or 2 others)  had been approached by people who had been abused/raped by vpw or lcm.   RD immediately went to address this.  He was escorted off grounds that same hour at gunpoint.   A handful of top leaders got together to see if they could salvage the situation.  Unfortunately, part of this was JAL writing an equally vague letter about some nebulous problems at HQ.   JAL went around the US,  telling people what he knew, collecting cash donations,  making himself known, etc.  

Once it was clear that JAL and a few others were more intereted in making a new twi-style group,  RD parted company with them.   JAL and friends formed "Christian Educational Services" - later Spirit and Truth Fellowship International".  In the beginning, they said they were open to discussing doctrine and there being no sacred cows. A few years later, they published a declaration of core beliefs, shut down their messageboard, and shut down disagreements as a whole.

The 2 biggest concerns among their adherents were probably their rather harmful doctrines of "Personal Prophecy" and "Momentus."   (We have entire threads about both subjects- each thread being about ONE of those 2.)  They could now have someone "prophesy" that anyone who disagreed with them was a spiritual danger-  and they did just this.  JAL's aware of this one quite vividly-  his divorce with his then-wife was traced to repeated "prophecies" made in an attempt to shut her up.   To this day, AFAIK,  JAL's never apologized for leading people over the cliff on that one and insisting it was Biblical-  all while silencing discussion on it.

The other was the SECULAR progam "Momentus."  It's an MLM  that runs as a training program.  Its names keep changing so that people can't look it up online and find out all about it.  A few of its names are claimed to be "Christian."  The practices of the program show no connection with practices in the Bible.   There's various activities that a good Psychologist or Sociologist could identify as increasing groupthink and encouraging people to be louder and more aggressive.   A number of participants of Momentus (a number under EACH of its names)  had breakdowns, required psychological assistance, etc as a result of participating.     Eventually, CES/STFI  stopped openly promoting it, and got evasive on whether or not they were still recommending it.  (They refused to be clear about continuing to use it, or beginning to abandon it.)   When people spoke to JAL privately, JAL rebuffed normal discussions and advertised Momentus.  It was impossible to have a normal discussion with him any more- any conversation was a marketing opportunity.       

BTW, eventually JAL and STFI parted ways.  JAL and their other leaders BOTH wanted to be in charge and in control of all the dough.   So,  JAL left and- AGAIN- formed another ex-twi  twi-style group. 

 

 

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There continues to persist the notion that the GSC is REQUIRED to be a Christian messageboard, rather than a messageboard open to all religious positions   (including anti-religious positions and a-religious positions.)  

To require that would be a DISSERVICE to twi survivors who no longer consider themselves Christian.  Some ex-twi were so scarred by twi, by vpw, by lcm, by JAL, by CG, by rfr,  that the flee Christianity completely.  I disagree with their decisions, but I have sympathy for anyone who's been hurt like that.  Telling them to "just suck it up" does not work, and is rather INhuman.    (There's other non-Christians who didn't flee in anger- I think they're also poorly-served by being silenced-  and the twi survivor communities are ill-served by silencing them.)  

The vast majority of discussions about twi don't require one to believe the Bible.  We can discuss what twi says, and what the Bible says, and show they are not connected, without requiring any poster believe the Bible.  (Objective truth is the same no matter one's personal beliefs.)  

 

BTW, there's places on the GSC for someone to post something pro-Christian. 

Also, as the GSC is about twi and its splinters, and surviving them, it's not a requirement for people to continue posting.  Plenty of devout Christians have stopped posting and gotten on with their lives post-twi and post-GSC.  I consider all of them to be GSC SUCCESS STORIES.  They got what they needed and then went on to live their lives. 

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Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works.

 

There's this interesting notion.  It persists among ex-twi, and, apparently, NOBODY ELSE. 

This notion is-  it is WORSE to expose vpw, lcm, JAL, etc as rapists or embezzlers or simonists than it was for any of them to actually BE a rapist, embezzler, or simonist.  The idea is that God is less pleased at whisle-blowers than at felons who still victimize His people.  

it's a bizarre idea.  Verses like II Timothy 4:14  make it obvious-   as if one has to actually be told it's obvious.

 

Hand in hand with that one is the bizarre idea that posters here spent ALL THEIR FREE TIME just posting here, and Christians who post here NEVER do anything Christian because they don't come here blowing a trumpet before them, to be seen of men. 

I don't think it's an HONEST misunderstanding.  I think it's a DEFENSE MECHANISM which is grasped by those who wish to all but deify corrupt, abusive "Christian" leaders who have been caught.  It's not meant to clarify anything- it's meant to fog the issues and change the subject.

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1 hour ago, Robinette Byden said:

First off, if you're trying to get someone to settle their differences with somebody else, shouldn't you try to get them to confront their demons, face-to-face? The former Way leaders who often get trashed on this forum by people identifying themselves as, "T-Bone", or "Mickey Mouse" probably wouldn't be too inclined to come here on the Internet if all the criticisms are from a one-way street when they have absolutely no clue who you guys are behind your pseudonyms.

Has anybody here ever invited Chris Geer or Craig Martindale to come on Grease Spot Cafe to address some long lingering concerns? If not, why not? Those guys might tell you to go BLEEP yourselves, but I don't believe either of them would shoot anybody for just asking. The absolute worst thing that could happen is they'd probably just say "No" to you -- Is that too horrifying of an experience for you guys to imagine?

Bottom Line is, I don't think you're handling any counseling opportunities in accordance with  Christian or Biblical standards. Also, do some of these folks coming to Grease Spot Cafe to vent their Tales of Woe about the Way Ministry, have any legal grounds to sue them in Civil Court? If so, why not just recommend them to a lawyer who'd handle their case for a nominal fee? Or maybe help establish a GoFundMe account for them?

Taunting the Way leaders, or swearing at them on the Internet while hiding behind pseudonyms isn't helping anything, it's just making things worse. If folks are still experiencing nightmares and flashbacks 20+ years after leaving the Way Ministry, they probably ought to seek the help of a Psychiatrist and maybe ask them if they could prescribe some medication for them. Actually, there's no shame in doing something like that if you know you need the help.

Besides that, the Way Ministry certainly isn't the first church group in American history to find leaders sexually exploiting its membership and it probably won't be the last. What about the PTL Club, or Jimmy Swaggart, or Marcus Lamb, or more recently, Jerry Falwell Jr.? Heck, for that matter, what about the Baptist church down the street in your neighborhood? There are stories ALL THE TIME about local Pastors, Priests, Rabbis, etc., sexually exploiting their members -- please don't patronize everybody here by claiming that situation is ONLY unique to the Way Ministry.

Lastly -- speaking about Patronizing everybody here on Grease Spot Cafe -- the Way Ministry, even in its "hey day" back in the late 70's thru early 80's was NEVER as big in membership as y'all are claiming it was/is. The Way was NEVER as big as the Unification Church (Moonies), or Hari Krishnas, or Scientology. Nor did it ever have a membership as big as the Mormons, or the Jehovah Witnesses. If I'm wrong, why didn't incidents like, The Passing of the Patriarch, or Craig Martindale's sexual assault lawsuits ever make the National Press? The folks I mentioned in the previous paragraph all made the National Press for their incidents, so why didn't the Way Ministry follow suit? Also, weren't there a handful of people who authored books about the demise of the Way Ministry? If so, how come none of those publications ever made the New York Times Best Seller List, or even, the Amazon Best Seller List?

So many questions, so few answers.

P.S.  In response to Rocky's question: I'm NOT still active in the Way Ministry -- I stopped fellow-shipping with them in '86.

RB, some of us do use our legal names.  Others don't, or can't perhaps for legal reasons.  

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47 minutes ago, WordWolf said:

There continues to persist the notion that the GSC is REQUIRED to be a Christian messageboard, rather than a messageboard open to all religious positions   (including anti-religious positions and a-religious positions.)  

To require that would be a DISSERVICE to twi survivors who no longer consider themselves Christian.  Some ex-twi were so scarred by twi, by vpw, by lcm, by JAL, by CG, by rfr,  that the flee Christianity completely.  I disagree with their decisions, but I have sympathy for anyone who's been hurt like that.  Telling them to "just suck it up" does not work, and is rather INhuman.    (There's other non-Christians who didn't flee in anger- I think they're also poorly-served by being silenced-  and the twi survivor communities are ill-served by silencing them.)  

The vast majority of discussions about twi don't require one to believe the Bible.  We can discuss what twi says, and what the Bible says, and show they are not connected, without requiring any poster believe the Bible.  (Objective truth is the same no matter one's personal beliefs.)  

 

BTW, there's places on the GSC for someone to post something pro-Christian. 

Also, as the GSC is about twi and its splinters, and surviving them, it's not a requirement for people to continue posting.  Plenty of devout Christians have stopped posting and gotten on with their lives post-twi and post-GSC.  I consider all of them to be GSC SUCCESS STORIES.  They got what they needed and then went on to live their lives. 

WW, yes!!  Excellent post!  Thanks for the information. 

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14 hours ago, Rocky said:

Do you really assume/surmise that telling the stories people tell on GSC are about "trying to get someone to settle their differences with someone else?

Why might you have a hard time grasping that telling one's story or stories is about anything other than telling one's stories?

Rocky, for some reason I thought of the old saying a guilty conscience needs no accuser – where a person knows they are in the wrong reveal their guilt by what they say or even how they interpret what others say. In the context of Grease Spot, this idea comes to mind when folks come on here and vehemently defend, explain away, minimalize, distract, derail a discussion about wierwille, TWI, whatever and/or intensely attack Grease Spotters or the things they say.... sometimes it seems as if a discussion on Grease Spot has struck a nerve...Now when I said the person knows they are in the wrong – I mean as regards to the light of truth exposing some hypocrisy or cult mindset within themselves…a lightsaber splitting open their close-mindedness. I went through that many times myself when I first left TWI; one of the first experiences was while I was shopping for groceries and looking at other people realizing what a spiritual snob I was in TWI – holding back tears, squirming in the light of this new awareness that I was no better than anyone else.

 

There’s another angle on this following WordWolf’s quote

13 hours ago, WordWolf said:

There continues to persist the notion that the GSC is REQUIRED to be a Christian messageboard, rather than a messageboard open to all religious positions   (including anti-religious positions and a-religious positions.)  

To require that would be a DISSERVICE to twi survivors who no longer consider themselves Christian.  Some ex-twi were so scarred by twi, by vpw, by lcm, by JAL, by CG, by rfr,  that the flee Christianity completely.  I disagree with their decisions, but I have sympathy for anyone who's been hurt like that.  Telling them to "just suck it up" does not work, and is rather INhuman.    (There's other non-Christians who didn't flee in anger- I think they're also poorly-served by being silenced-  and the twi survivor communities are ill-served by silencing them.)  

The vast majority of discussions about twi don't require one to believe the Bible.  We can discuss what twi says, and what the Bible says, and show they are not connected, without requiring any poster believe the Bible.  (Objective truth is the same no matter one's personal beliefs.)  

 

BTW, there's places on the GSC for someone to post something pro-Christian. 

Also, as the GSC is about twi and its splinters, and surviving them, it's not a requirement for people to continue posting.  Plenty of devout Christians have stopped posting and gotten on with their lives post-twi and post-GSC.  I consider all of them to be GSC SUCCESS STORIES.  They got what they needed and then went on to live their lives. 

WordWolf, your post made me think of something I learned from Rocky’s "reading assignment" thread  :biglaugh:    - so stay with me on this -  folks that persist in any notions requiring Grease Spot to change reminded me of the scene in Hamlet when Queen Gertrude responded to the insincere overacting of a character portraying her in a play staged by Hamlet (so this is actually a play within a play); when Hamlet asks the Queen (his mother) what she thought of the play – she responded “the lady doth protest too much”  meaning the emphatic declarations made by the actress portraying the Queen are too excessive to be believed     see    Wikipedia - the lady doth protest too much     …usage of the phrase may vary currently – one writer on     Quora        said “thou doth protest too much “ is an indicator of hypocrisy, something like virtue signaling, only stronger…virtue signaling is an expression of moral values with the intent to enhance one's own image - see   Wiki virtue signaling    )…in summary I tend to think much of the negativity directed at Grease Spot and Grease Spotters is just posturing - behavior that is intended to impress or mislead.

Edited by T-Bone
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Wow, I'm not quite sure if I can legitimately compete with someone quoting 'Hamlet', but I'll give it a shot. I'd like to share with all you Bible Scholars, one of my all-time verses of scripture:

But if any man (or woman) be ignorant, let him (or her) be ignorant. --  1 Corinthians 14:38

So I took the liberty to log onto:   WhoIs.com ,  just to see how long GreaseSpotCafe.com has been in existence. August 28, 2000, so this forum has been operating now exactly, 20 years plus one month. Belated Happy Birthday wishes on accomplishing such a fantastic Milestone of longevity as far as Internet forums go these days. Ironically or not, that just happens to be the exact same year that Craig Martindale was Terminated by the Way Ministry -- I can't help but wonder if these two events have any association to each other, but I digress.

Now if you re-read all my posts since I started on this particular thread last Friday (9/25), you'll notice -- assuming, of course, you're honest -- that I've said NOTHING slanderous or vulgar, individually or collectively, against anybody here on this forum. As they say in Evangelical Christian circles, I'm just, "offering loving constructive criticisms to my brothers and sisters in Christ." If y'all choose to just thumb your proverbial noses and ignore everything I've stated thus far on this thread, I'm perfectly fine with that. No hard feelings from my end.

As I stated on an earlier post, 20 years is an awful long time -- it's like two decades long. I believe that's about the length of a Generation. A lot's changed in the Way Ministry, along with its various splinter groups, heck, a lot's changed in the World since the year 2000. For example, John Lynn is now a Pastor in his Third (3) Ministry just since Victor Paul Wierwille passed away -- Can you believe it? Most successful organizations, like businesses and churches, usually meet every so often to reassess or modify their priorities and objectives to remain competitive in the Here and Now.  I'm merely suggesting that perhaps the 20-year plateau might be a good time for the Powers-that-Be of GreaseSpotCafe.com ,  to get together and reassess their goals and objectives for the next few years going forward.  If not, no Biggie, it's no skin off my back.

I won't offer any more "loving constructive criticisms" on this forum, I think I've already stated more than my share. Ditto on this one particular thread, enough said from Yours Truly on this subject -- at least for now.

Agape

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Not entirely sure what you have said that is either loving or constructive; but critical, yes!

And yes, there is a relationship between GSC's arrival, and LCM's departure.  Have you read the court documents detailing his depravity with a certain person's wife?  No?  Okay, look about and you'll find out why these events coincide.

Even now, there are people who have been "out" of TWI for many years (decades, some), who are so traumatized that they are only now addressing some issues.  And the people who post (or at least look in) regularly are the ones who hear and understand - in a way that many outsiders or still-Waybrained, appear unable to recognise.

If you don't find it helpful to be here, you've no obligation to stay.

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20 hours ago, WordWolf said:

Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works.

 

There's this interesting notion.  It persists among ex-twi, and, apparently, NOBODY ELSE. 

This notion is-  it is WORSE to expose vpw, lcm, JAL, etc as rapists or embezzlers or simonists than it was for any of them to actually BE a rapist, embezzler, or simonist.  The idea is that God is less pleased at whisle-blowers than at felons who still victimize His people.  

it's a bizarre idea.  Verses like II Timothy 4:14  make it obvious-   as if one has to actually be told it's obvious.

 

Hand in hand with that one is the bizarre idea that posters here spent ALL THEIR FREE TIME just posting here, and Christians who post here NEVER do anything Christian because they don't come here blowing a trumpet before them, to be seen of men. 

I don't think it's an HONEST misunderstanding.  I think it's a DEFENSE MECHANISM which is grasped by those who wish to all but deify corrupt, abusive "Christian" leaders who have been caught.  It's not meant to clarify anything- it's meant to fog the issues and change the subject.

The main fundamental problem with the Way ministry as I still see it and saw it years ago was that high leaders for the Way could do what ever they wanted to do with no criticism even if they did bad things. While common ordinary people involved in the Way as members were treated much more critically regarding so called evil things that they could do even before they did them. Years ago I even wrote a biblical article on this subject titled "The Lordship of Jesus Christ, Contrasting the Lordship of Imperfect Man". 

I did not know about Victor Weirwille's usage of his religious leadership to have sex with women who he was not married to. While common ordinary people involved in the Way could be criticized for this even before we did this. The one time I personally talked to Victor Weirwille was in about the year 1984 while I was a WOW. I was at a Way event with an auditorium combined with hotel rooms. I saw Victor with his best friend and peacefully walked up to him and told him. "You look familiar, but I don't remember your name, but it sounds something like wear something." I believe God inspired me to say at the end of my sentence "wear something" instead of "werewolf", which I thought I wanted to say before I said my sentence. Victor then said "werewolf" and then the three of us peacefully laughed. The sad thing is now, I did not pet him like he was my dog. It is very difficult to pet a werewolf without getting bitten.

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti
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1 hour ago, Robinette Byden said:

I'm merely suggesting that perhaps the 20-year plateau might be a good time for the Powers-that-Be of GreaseSpotCafe.com ,  to get together and reassess their goals and objectives for the next few years going forward.  If not, no Biggie, it's no skin off my back.

Again, why might you think there's reason to reassess anything when the whole idea is to let people tell their STORIES?

If you don't want to tell us your story, that's no skin off my back. :wink2:  

 

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1 hour ago, Robinette Byden said:

I can't help but wonder if these two events have any association to each other, but I digress.

Yes, they are associated. You need not wonder why or how, as answers abound in the historical record here. It may take a bit of patience, but you can find/figure it out.

:wave: :love3:

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3 hours ago, Robinette Byden said:

Wow, I'm not quite sure if I can legitimately compete with someone quoting 'Hamlet', but I'll give it a shot. I'd like to share with all you Bible Scholars, one of my all-time verses of scripture:

But if any man (or woman) be ignorant, let him (or her) be ignorant. --  1 Corinthians 14:38

So I took the liberty to log onto:   WhoIs.com ,  just to see how long GreaseSpotCafe.com has been in existence. August 28, 2000, so this forum has been operating now exactly, 20 years plus one month. Belated Happy Birthday wishes on accomplishing such a fantastic Milestone of longevity as far as Internet forums go these days. Ironically or not, that just happens to be the exact same year that Craig Martindale was Terminated by the Way Ministry -- I can't help but wonder if these two events have any association to each other, but I digress.

Now if you re-read all my posts since I started on this particular thread last Friday (9/25), you'll notice -- assuming, of course, you're honest -- that I've said NOTHING slanderous or vulgar, individually or collectively, against anybody here on this forum. As they say in Evangelical Christian circles, I'm just, "offering loving constructive criticisms to my brothers and sisters in Christ." If y'all choose to just thumb your proverbial noses and ignore everything I've stated thus far on this thread, I'm perfectly fine with that. No hard feelings from my end.

As I stated on an earlier post, 20 years is an awful long time -- it's like two decades long. I believe that's about the length of a Generation. A lot's changed in the Way Ministry, along with its various splinter groups, heck, a lot's changed in the World since the year 2000. For example, John Lynn is now a Pastor in his Third (3) Ministry just since Victor Paul Wierwille passed away -- Can you believe it? Most successful organizations, like businesses and churches, usually meet every so often to reassess or modify their priorities and objectives to remain competitive in the Here and Now.  I'm merely suggesting that perhaps the 20-year plateau might be a good time for the Powers-that-Be of GreaseSpotCafe.com ,  to get together and reassess their goals and objectives for the next few years going forward.  If not, no Biggie, it's no skin off my back.

I won't offer any more "loving constructive criticisms" on this forum, I think I've already stated more than my share. Ditto on this one particular thread, enough said from Yours Truly on this subject -- at least for now.

Agape

 

So, you "took the liberty to log onto Whols.com" ...... and that got your motor running?  Really?

Hmmm......sounds like you didn't do any diligent study of the background or history of this site.

  • No mention of GSC's predecessor "Waydale."
  • No mention (or understanding?) of the TWO lawsuits against Martindale/TWI.
  • No mention of the out-of-court settlements that led to Waydale's agreement to close.
  • No mention of hundreds of members/posters who have given heartfelt thanks to this site.
  • No mention of second-generation kids who've told their stories of depression and/or abuse.
  • No mention of the deep scars left by 20, 30 or 40 years of cult exploitation.
  • No mention that just 3 years ago......Another Exodus (150-300 people) exited TWI.
  • No mention of how cults use intimidation, manipulation, deception and isolation to overpower.

Maybe that "ignorant" verse that you like some much is succinctly placed.

Will Rogers was known for saying....."Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects."

 

.

  

 

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3 hours ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

The main fundamental problem with the Way ministry as I still see it and saw it years ago was that high leaders for the Way could do what ever they wanted to do with no criticism even if they did bad things. While common ordinary people involved in the Way as members were treated much more critically regarding so called evil things that they could do even before they did them. Years ago I even wrote a biblical article on this subject titled "The Lordship of Jesus Christ, Contrasting the Lordship of Imperfect Man". 

I did not know about Victor Weirwille's usage of his religious leadership to have sex with women who he was not married to. While common ordinary people involved in the Way could be criticized for this even before we did this. The one time I personally talked to Victor Weirwille was in about the year 1984 while I was a WOW. I was at a Way event with an auditorium combined with hotel rooms. I saw Victor with his best friend and peacefully walked up to him and told him. "You look familiar, but I don't remember your name, but it sounds something like wear something." I believe God inspired me to say at the end of my sentence "wear something" instead of "werewolf", which I thought I wanted to say before I said my sentence. Victor then said "werewolf" and then the three of us peacefully laughed. The sad thing is now, I did pet him like he was my dog. It is very difficult to pet a werewolf without getting bitten.

Grease Spot is not letting me edit my posts now. “The sad thing is now, I did NOT pet him like he was my dog.”

 

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2 hours ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

Grease Spot is not letting me edit my posts now. “The sad thing is now, I did NOT pet him like he was my dog.”

 

you can still edit it.

the edit button moved to the upper right of your post...click on the three dots and you will see 3 options: reportshare and edit

I think things got moved around when they did an update

Edited by T-Bone
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1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

you can still edit it.

the edit button moved to the upper right of your post...click on the three dots and you will see 3 options: reportshare and edit

I think things got moved around when they did an update

Thank you for that information T-Bone. The editing worked.

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti
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Glad you made that clear, Mark.  I did think your original comment was a very strange thing for anyone to say!!

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14 hours ago, skyrider said:

 

So, you "took the liberty to log onto Whols.com" ...... and that got your motor running?  Really?

Hmmm......sounds like you didn't do any diligent study of the background or history of this site.

  • No mention of GSC's predecessor "Waydale."
  • No mention (or understanding?) of the TWO lawsuits against Martindale/TWI.
  • No mention of the out-of-court settlements that led to Waydale's agreement to close.
  • No mention of hundreds of members/posters who have given heartfelt thanks to this site.
  • No mention of second-generation kids who've told their stories of depression and/or abuse.
  • No mention of the deep scars left by 20, 30 or 40 years of cult exploitation.
  • No mention that just 3 years ago......Another Exodus (150-300 people) exited TWI.
  • No mention of how cults use intimidation, manipulation, deception and isolation to overpower.

Maybe that "ignorant" verse that you like some much is succinctly placed.

Will Rogers was known for saying....."Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects."

 

.

  

 

IN addition to all of those, immediately after Waydale was the first GSC messageboard, which was replaced by the current messageboard.     

(Not to take away from any of the events you mentioned- most were more important than what I added.)

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First off, if you're trying to get someone to settle their differences with somebody else, shouldn't you try to get them to confront their demons, face-to-face?

[This site is more about all the survivors OF those who held the microphone.  Those who held the microphone have had plenty of chances to speak up.   The GSC gave/gives a voice to those whose voice was stolen.

However, the former and present leaders, as well as former and current members, are welcome to post here.  People are free to use their own names as well as pseudonyms.   A few of them HAVE posted here under pseudonyms.  Ever consider how a screen-name protects THEM?  They can post of their experiences and their thoughts with nobody judging them- other than by the content of their posts.    JAL, however, has flatly refused to participate directly. He's elected to send messages to go-betweens to post them.  In one case, the short version was "it's me, I'm not going to post here, but you can buy my new books at the following location...."   In a later case, he left a note that HINTED at this messageboard without naming it.   At no point will JAL participate in this or any OTHER messageboard, since he can't squelch dissent and shut down disagreement.  He's said he will only dialogue with people BY PHONE.  Thoae who took him up on it were subjected to advertisements for his stuff disguised as phonecalls.   So, JAL will not dialogue with anyone under ANY circumstances. ]

 

The former Way leaders who often get trashed on this forum by people identifying themselves as, "T-Bone", or "Mickey Mouse" probably wouldn't be too inclined to come here on the Internet if all the criticisms are from a one-way street when they have absolutely no clue who you guys are behind your pseudonyms.

 

[They also won't answer those who use their real names.  As for me, all my authority stems from me posting things that make sense.   Any poster here can say the same.    Besides, for them, it's never been about people being anonymous, it's about controlling the discussion.   Ever hear of "Family Tables"?  An active wayfer made up his own messageboard.   When a few people signed up who were not innies, they POLITELY disagreed with something.  He promptly deleted their POSTS and their ACCOUNTS.   He then added elaborate rules where anyone signing up had to be twi insiders.   A short time later, twi got wind of the messageboard, and leaned on him to close it down.      The CES/STFI messageboard was also shut down by the people who put it up.  

These are not people who want to dialogue.  These are people who want to SILENCE dialogue.  "Just shut up, buy my book, and hand over 10% of your income."  It's a common thread.  In the case of JAL, it's a common, REPEATED thread.]

 

Has anybody here ever invited Chris Geer or Craig Martindale to come on Grease Spot Cafe to address some long lingering concerns? If not, why not? Those guys might tell you to go BLEEP yourselves, but I don't believe either of them would shoot anybody for just asking. The absolute worst thing that could happen is they'd probably just say "No" to you -- Is that too horrifying of an experience for you guys to imagine?

 

[The offer's been on the table.  We've even discussed how they'd be welcome here.  I suggested they might want to start by using a screen-name, specifically so they could arrive and avoid all the baggage with being them.  Perhaps later they'd feel free to use their real names.    No, no nibbles.    BTW, I'm sure they're either well aware of us, or going out of their ways to avoid any and all mentions of themselves online.  Seriously, if almost all the mentions of your name were all from a single messageboard, you'd be aware of the messageboard OR you'd be going out of your way to avoid it.  It sounds like you find the idea that they were invited here to be too far-fetched.    I think they won't even participate here because, again, they are control freaks who can't handle  others disagreeing with them or holding the microphone.

BTW,  not everything said about them has been negative.  IIRC, Rivenbark has been unique among all  the twi and splinter top brass as the ONLY one that nobody could come forth and say something nice about.  There WERE some nice things said about vpw and lcm-  I remember because I started one of the threads that specifically invited comments about each, including positive comments,  Frankly, I was shocked at how nobody who'd ever met Rivenbark could remember anything positive about her after seeing how they could say nice things about vpw and lcm]

 

 

Bottom Line is, I don't think you're handling any counseling opportunities in accordance with  Christian or Biblical standards.

 

[ A) Not required for a board not required to be Christian nor Biblical.

B) I disagree anyway.  The flock has had a chance to heal up here.  We don't have a responsibility here to counsel the jackals who spare not the flock.     But, honestly, if lcm (for example) came here, posted under a pseudonym,  quietly contacted people and repented of direct hurts he'd done to them, then later went public with who he was and asked for forgiveness and a chance to communicate here as an equal, I expect he'd get the sane chances to heal , discuss and participate as anyone else. ]

 

Also, do some of these folks coming to Grease Spot Cafe to vent their Tales of Woe about the Way Ministry, have any legal grounds to sue them in Civil Court? If so, why not just recommend them to a lawyer who'd handle their case for a nominal fee? Or maybe help establish a GoFundMe account for them?

 

[There's a switch-  someone went to the existing GSC and asked about possible lawsuits against twi.  If it wasn't FOR lawsuits against twi, there wouldn't BE a GSC!  

 

Look, if neither the people's accounts of the sufferings of themselves or others are to your taste, nor the candid discussions of the evils done by twi and splinter leaders,  you might be on the wrong messageboard.  You are welcome to find one that meets your criteria, or start your own. ]

 

 

Taunting the Way leaders, or swearing at them on the Internet while hiding behind pseudonyms isn't helping anything, it's just making things worse. If folks are still experiencing nightmares and flashbacks 20+ years after leaving the Way Ministry, they probably ought to seek the help of a Psychiatrist and maybe ask them if they could prescribe some medication for them. Actually, there's no shame in doing something like that if you know you need the help.

 

{You belittle both what is done here, and how it helps.  Thousands of people have said they were helped here already.  Plenty of people never posted here, and only lurked.  We don't know how many of those we helped.   Also, revealing hidden truths about people trying to hide their crimes and abuses of people-  all so they can do it some more-  that's very important to the people who don't want to be their current victims.  Those trying to recover from being their current victims have said it was important.  And those who want to get healthy DECADES LATER have reported how important we've been in their recovery and healing/ 

BTW,  some people HAVE seen Psychiatrists to hep recover from twi (as well as Momentus).  Having chances to post here in addition has been useful for their recoveries.   People who have had to hide their voices and deny their own right think or disagree find it healing just to be able to post in their own voices and think for themselves.

Oh, and if you were trying to disagree like this in twi, or STFI, or JAL's latest travesty, you would NEVER have gotten this far.  Your voice would have been silenced.]

 

Besides that, the Way Ministry certainly isn't the first church group in American history to find leaders sexually exploiting its membership and it probably won't be the last. What about the PTL Club, or Jimmy Swaggart, or Marcus Lamb, or more recently, Jerry Falwell Jr.? Heck, for that matter, what about the Baptist church down the street in your neighborhood? There are stories ALL THE TIME about local Pastors, Priests, Rabbis, etc., sexually exploiting their members -- please don't patronize everybody here by claiming that situation is ONLY unique to the Way Ministry.

{Please don't belittle the hurts suffered by people at the hands of twi and splinter people.  Their suffering is no less painful for not having been unique.   

There's plenty of room for messageboards for survivors of Swaggart or PTL and so on.  Those survivors are free to make their own spaces for healing and telling their side of the story.    I'd recommend you go check that out- if I though it was about compassion for them. However, this is all about trying to belittle suffering at the hands of lcm, vpw, jal, etc. in an effort to make the sinful "leaders" look fit for office.]

 

 

Lastly -- speaking about Patronizing everybody here on Grease Spot Cafe -- the Way Ministry, even in its "hey day" back in the late 70's thru early 80's was NEVER as big in membership as y'all are claiming it was/is. The Way was NEVER as big as the Unification Church (Moonies), or Hari Krishnas, or Scientology. Nor did it ever have a membership as big as the Mormons, or the Jehovah Witnesses. If I'm wrong, why didn't incidents like, The Passing of the Patriarch, or Craig Martindale's sexual assault lawsuits ever make the National Press? The folks I mentioned in the previous paragraph all made the National Press for their incidents, so why didn't the Way Ministry follow suit? Also, weren't there a handful of people who authored books about the demise of the Way Ministry? If so, how come none of those publications ever made the New York Times Best Seller List, or even, the Amazon Best Seller List?

{You must be thinking of some other messageboard.  Nobody here claimed that twi was big enough to make the national news.  Even at its height, it was smaller than some megachurches in some CITIES, let alone national groups or international.   vpw and twi and lcm- and rfr-  have slipped through the cracks because, on a national level, they've always been small potatoes.  There was a Time Magazine article that mentioned vpw (it wasn't all about him, he was one leader of one group they discussed.  There was a Life Magazine article about WOWs in Rye, NY around 1971 which was the height of national penetration of twi.  

None of that means we should stop discussing twi.  One careless driver hitting one kid with a van one afternoon on one street is a statistic in that city.  it doesn't warrant statewide nor national news.  However, for that kid, and the people who care about him, that incident would be a big deal and affect their lives (if he survived.) 

So, vpw not managing to rape women in all 50 states doesn't mean we don't discuss the lives he hurt when he DID rape women.  For that matter, if he had "ONLY" raped one woman (there were LOTS, some of whom were drugged),  it would still be important to discuss.]

 

 

So many questions, so few answers.

P.S.  In response to Rocky's question: I'm NOT still active in the Way Ministry -- I stopped fellow-shipping with them in '86.

 

[You may no longer be in the organization.  However, that doesn't mean the organization has not left YOU.    I'm genuinely sorry that you haven't progressed further in your twi recovery journey.   Either you've avoided humans for decades (unlikely)  or you spent more than a decade in one or more splinter groups.    Hopefully, you'll be able to progress beyond twi AND splinters now.   If you want to try, we're here and may be able to help,  If you'd rather remain lockstep with twi or a splinter, then you're just going to find us counter-productive.]

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I also posted this in the thread about The Book of Longings.

A brief excerpt from the Book of Longings. Ana, now the wife of Jesus, speaking with her friend Tabitha, who had earlier in the book been raped. Because of the culture at the time, it was not acceptable for a woman to respond as Tabitha did. She was roughly 15 years old at the time and after the rape she was angry and shouted in the streets naming her rapist. Tabitha's father cut her tongue out and sold her into slavery. It was the only disturbing episode in the book up to this point (I'm 42 percent of the way through it). Ana and Jesus found her near death on the road to Jerusalem for the Passover. She had run away from abusive slave owners. Ana and Jesus rescued her and took her to Jesus' friends house (Mary, Martha and Lazarus) where Tabitha was nursed back to health and given safety. When Ana and Jesus left to return to Nazareth, Ana said the following to Tabitha.


"Years ago, after that day I came to your house, I wrote down your story on papyrus. I wrote about your ferocious spirit, how you stood in the street and cried out what happened to you and were silenced for it. I think every pain in this world wants to be witnessed, Tabitha. That's why you shouted about your rape on the street and it's why I wrote it down."

She stared at me unblinking, then pulled me to her and clung there.

That is what GSC does for people, though cultures now are not the same as during that era.

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Grease Spot is a good conduit for therapy. I think discussing bad experiences is more than telling the other side of the story (as important as that is).  Thinking about these recent posts reminded me of how much good therapy I get from Grease Spot. I know I must bore some old timers here when I go over and over again and again some of my experiences :biglaugh:  . Some of what motivates me is to provide a point of resonance for others who have had similar experiences – so they won’t feel they’re weird or alone. But I sure get a lot out of it too!

So I googled “therapeutic to talk to others about bad experiences” and found a cool article – excerpts are below and the link to the article is below that:

1.       To get support – a 1995 study  squashed the idea that human traumas are uncommon. Now, we might even say it’s the norm. While that might be true, trauma still isn’t something most people feel comfortable publicizing. Therefore, a solution for many people is a survivors’ group. Survivors’ groups can be some of the best ways to find understanding and empathy. If you’re simultaneously in recovery from substance abuse, groups like AA and NA are full of fellow trauma survivors. Support doesn’t have to come from an organized group—it can come from family, friends, a hotline volunteer, or mental health professional. But there’s something about a group of people who have been through a similar experience that can feel like the freshest of air. 

2.       To make sense of what happened – trauma doesn’t make sense, it’s a mess of emotions, reactions and questions – it’s unspeakable – more of a roar than words; therefore turning the unspeakable into language is necessary to make sense of trauma.

3.      To realize you are more than your trauma; Trauma can sometimes seem like the defining point in one’s life. There’s life before the assault, the accident, or the war, and then there’s an entirely different life after. The degree to which people define themselves by their trauma is what psychologists refer to as event centrality. One study found that centrality of trauma can be both a bad sign and a good sign. It’s a bad sign when the trauma overwhelms your identity; But centrality can be a good sign when survivors assimilate the event into their identity. It becomes part of who they are. It made them who they are today. The trauma is central to their lives, but they’ve become a victor rather than a victim.

4.      To get a reality check; trauma turns our understanding of the world upside-down. We think it’s our fault. We think no one can ever be trusted again. We think if anyone gets to know the real us, we’ll be abandoned faster than a beachfront house during hurricane season.

But talking about trauma can debunk these mistaken beliefs. In particular, talking with a therapist about how a trauma has changed your worldview can illuminate your assumptions and force you to question them, as in, “Wait, maybe it was my rapist’s fault I got raped, not mine,” or “Wait, maybe getting help doesn’t mean I’m weak,” or “Wait, just because it happened once doesn’t mean it will happen every time.”

5.      To make meaning; Like pressure turning coal into diamonds, a trauma survivor may make something more meaningful out of trauma; Why? Trauma makes us look inside ourselves. People work hard to make sense of it and to re-evaluate what’s important to them. Often, trauma sharpens our sense of purpose, reminds us to focus on our family or community, or sets us on a mission to give back, appreciate life, or realize our own strength and resilience.

== == == == 

end of excerpts

the above from  Psychology Today – 5 reasons to talk about trauma

Edited by T-Bone
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All of the above, T-Bone.  Thanks for posting.

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