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Indoctrination Central Command


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Wierwille's "ministry" and legacy is in the trash bin of history.  For 20 years, GSC has shown the evil face behind its mask.

Labeling the stolen class [from Rev. B.G. Leonard] as "Power for Abundant Living"........was a marketing ploy.  Wierwille was a thief and had to take his stolen goods to a *chop shop* to strip and alter the vehicle to something else.......to disguise the theft.  He used deception with ease, without guilt or shame.

Labeling his church building "The Way Biblical Research and Teaching Center" did NOT make it so.  With each passing year, he strayed more into private interpretation as he added *Advanced Studies Classes* to generate a system of indoctrination.  Cash flow, baby......  :spy:  I contend that wierwille's narcissist ambitions were to establish a dependency on twi.......not on Christ Jesus, the mediator between God and man.  Wierwille's aim was focused on the subjugation of his followers!!!

These past 20 years, hundreds of GSC threads have exposed Wierwille's revisionist history.  Of course, wierwille boasted and expounded profusely during those corps night owl meetings when he was liquored up with plenty of Drambuie, his favorite drink.  He detailed accounts of hearing an audible voice from God, snow on the gas pumps, studying into the wee hours of the morning for 12 years to unearth the truths of the Scriptures, etc. etc.  And, the Wierwille German  family history was broadcasted loud and proud time and again......even Mrs. Wierwille's book spends ample time on this to tweak the indoctrination message of "The Way, Inc."  The year 1982, the designated year of wierwille's retirement (after 40 years of his ministry work --- cough, cough)........was when Wierwille's narcissism and boasting came center stage.  Hours and hours of detailing the wierwille family history at "Living Victoriously."  Wine glasses with the wierwille crest were sold in the Way's bookstore.  Little wierwille statues could be purchased for your desk or home.

The corps training was an indoctrination program.  The corps were sent forth with marching orders to run classes.......i.e. subjugate followers.  Every cog in the machine was geared for followship........not fellowship.  Even to this day, there are indoctrinated ex-corps who have NOT connected the dots of wierwille's deception.  They are devotees/idolaters who spout the cult-clap cliches and buzzwords that we all heard thousands of times.  Corps who endeavored to research Scripture that was outside the boundaries of wierwille's system were slapped back into line, or black-listed.  Heck, even Schoenheit's research on "Adultery is a Sin" was deep-sixed by Walter Cummings, the Research Department Head Coordinator.  In fact, you'd get pozzezzed just reading it.......what a sh!t-show accusation.  Backed by Geer, Finnegan, Townsend, others?  Nobody could challenge this?

Wierwille died of cancer.  Does twi go back and examine wierwille's teachings at the Advanced Classes that CANCER IS A DEVIL SPIRIT?  Nope.  Silence.  You are not allowed to challenge wierwille's teachings.  You are NOT allowed to disagree with the way cult.

If you dissent, then they "mark and avoid" you.  The Scientologists call it "disconnect."  The Amish consider it "shunning."

A journey that may have started as biblical research for some........morphed into twi-indoctrination.  The errors/deception in doctrine led to errors/deception in practice.  Mandates were established to instill subservience:

  • Foundational books only sold to PFAL grads.  In-house bookstore.  Indoctrination marketing.
  • Series of classes build on twi-doctrine....ie. Renewed Mind.  Why in the past tense?  Scripture says "renewing of the mind"....
  • Cancer is a devil spirit.  Wierwille died of cancer.  Did wierwille die possessed of a devil spirit?  Or, was wierwille wrong?
  • No debt-policy.  For 26 years, twi had a mandated policy of no debt for certain classes, leadership positions.  What changed?
  • No pregnancy policy.  Corps grads were mandated to NOT get pregnant....or released from employment.  Why?
  • No homosexuals allowed......yet, Rosalie had two lesbians living in her basement.  No one could call her out on it?
  • Two-by-two policy.  Who enforced this policy?  Was Donna allowed to go shopping by herself?  LOL
  • Founders Hall mandates.  Off-grounds leniency.  Two-tier system benefits some and not others.
  • Subjugation.  Indoctrination.  Subservience.  It's around every corner at The Way International.

And now, Donna is the CEO of The Way International........when every rule and mandate that wierwille established was that EACH CORPS COUPLE was treated as a unit of one.  If the husband screwed up, both husband and wife were dropped from active corps [DFAC].  If the wife was "off the Word" and rebellious, then the husband was reproved for not leading her correctly and BOTH were dismissed from the corps program.  YET, that is not what happened with Donna.  She was given special compensation, because of her *close association* with Rosalie.  Hypocrisy and complicity.....as the "rulers" have their own set of no accountability. Donna got to lay low for several years and incrementally, and strategically, build her status back to prominence.  LOL.  See how that works?  Rules for thee, but not for SHE.

Indoctrination Central Command is still plugging along.

Welcome to the cult.  :anim-smile:

 

 

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In my opinion, nothing cuts through twi-nostalgia faster than the blunt facts-on-the-ground.

So often, people wonder why way corps throw in the towel.......and walk away.  Lots of reasons, I'm sure.......but the increased burdens and hardships mounted incessantly from 1978 and onward.  When wierwille mandated to ALL CORPS an extra week of work/service to the annual pilgrimage of the rock of ages festival .....IT WAS THE BEGINNING OF THE END.  Wierwille's narcissism blinded him from seeing it coming.

Here at GreaseSpot Cafe.....have you noticed that, most always, the greatest wierwille-apologists are NOT CORPS.  They spout how wierwille "walked with God" and his teachings were incredible.  Yet, they never delve into the realities and burdens of these religious mandates.  Despite wierwille's plagiarism, sexual predation, research foibles, private indoctrination, manipulation and exploitation, etc. ..... wierwille and top-tier leaders didn't have a clue of the daily lives of these followers/corps.

The blunt facts-on-the-ground...

"Going to the Rock and Corps Week was a major ordeal. V.P. wrote a letter to the Corps saying his heart was broken that so many Corps left prior to the Rock. His words were, "Corps...if you can't stand with me at the Rock, then don't bother coming to Corps Week either. If your job won't let you to, quite your job!" Then he said something about wavering in our believing.

So, to pull that off, one had to get a job that gave you 3 weeks vacation a year. It takes about 3 days to drive from Idaho to Ohio, 2 weeks at HQ, 3 days to drive back. It took money to fly, which meant you had to have a good job, which few of us did. So tell me where a person can get a job that gives them 3 weeks off a year right off the bat. Yet, if one was on staff, you were given time for Rock and Corps Week, plus given two weeks vacation a year. Then one day visiting clergy came to the state. One of the Corps Coordinators and taught a seminar on government. Oooh! Now that's certainly worth a 9-hour trip! Afterwards, he meets with the Corps and asks us why more Corps don't come to Way Family Camps. It was then I realized that TWI leadership was completely out of touch with what was going on out on the field. For the first time in my 10-year involvement in TWI, I'm starting to get disgruntled.

Then, to top it off, I received a letter from Donald Wierwille. He's mad because the College Division Alumnae who were also Corps Grads (me) were not attending special College Division functions. He went as far as to say we had "attitude problems". I worked 12-hour days at the Rock, man, for free! In fact, I paid my own way to get there. One year I sold my car just to have enough to go and listen to "God's Word Served on a Silver Platter" for the like the 15th time. Now here's this guy in his ivory tower issuing smart-assed accusations about something of which he knows nothing. I was ....ed!

I was considering writing a nasty letter back and weighing whether it was worth getting kicked out of the Corps over. I doubt I would have had the guts to really do it, but I was on my way. It became a moot point about a week later because that's when Geer read Passing of the Patriarch for the first time. I sort of thought that Dean Don may be somewhat busy at that point.

So, there you have it."

 

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17 minutes ago, skyrider said:

Here at GreaseSpot Cafe.....have you noticed that, most always, the greatest wierwille-apologists are NOT CORPS.  They spout how wierwille "walked with God" and his teachings were incredible.  Yet, they never delve into the realities and burdens of these religious mandates

As I've said many times, the biggest problem wasn't so much about whether we believed "4 crucified" or "the cry of triumph" or whatever other controversial doctrinal issue you might choose. It was about the crazy, out-of-balance lifestyle we were required to live. I initially thought the leadership programs were supposed to advance us academically so we could better fulfill our leadership roles. There was very little, if any, chance for academic growth but plenty of sleep depravation, paltry meals and tedium. This is the part that gets lost on people who weren't in the training programs. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they didn't have to endure it. What's even worse is the people who were subjected to this abuse and are still, 50 years later, not able to see what a large scale scam it was. I posted a short clip in the open forum that deals with cult life on the other side of the world. The parallels are frighteningly sad.

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1 hour ago, waysider said:

As I've said many times, the biggest problem wasn't so much about whether we believed "4 crucified" or "the cry of triumph" or whatever other controversial doctrinal issue you might choose. It was about the crazy, out-of-balance lifestyle we were required to live. I initially thought the leadership programs were supposed to advance us academically so we could better fulfill our leadership roles. There was very little, if any, chance for academic growth but plenty of sleep depravation, paltry meals and tedium. This is the part that gets lost on people who weren't in the training programs. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they didn't have to endure it. What's even worse is the people who were subjected to this abuse and are still, 50 years later, not able to see what a large scale scam it was. I posted a short clip in the open forum that deals with cult life on the other side of the world. The parallels are frighteningly sad.

Yeah, manipulated and isolated from family, friends and career advancements.  With each deception, one is led into classes and programs that FURTHER target you with isolation, dependence and exploitation.  The WOW program was a one-year commitment to a certain city to witness and run pfal classes.  Any involvement with local fellowships and believers was prohibited.  Under no circumstances were WOWs allowed to "leave the field".....i.e. weddings, funerals.  Fellow-Laborers and Way Corps training were far more intense.....and isolating.

Imagine, involvement in an isolated cult for 15-25 years?  Yikes!  

Some of the recent corps leaders exited in 2017.......after 45 years in this toxic environment.  :smilie_kool_aid:

And, now........THEY want to establish other splinter cults.  :mad2:

 

 

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" I posted a short clip in the open forum that deals with cult life on the other side of the world. The parallels are frighteningly sad.'

Waysider........that South Korean cult video shows the same tactics and trappings of all cults.  

Global exploitation and death traps......CULTS ARE EVERYWHERE.

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Speaking of indoctrination, Penworks, a couple of weeks ago shared a letter with me that she wrote (but never sent) to Walter Cummins about a particular contradiction in scripture and TWI teaching (and practice). I have it on my google drive and have set it so that anyone with the link can view it. But I haven't figured out where I might be able to post it online such that I can display it here. She wrote the letter after she left TWI.

Charlene gave me permission to post it to GSC. Here's the text of the letter:

Dear Walter,

I'm in need of help in understanding soul life. Can you help me?

Advanced Class '79 "The first breath of a child is soul life, until that time there is no soul life."

PFAL p. 237 "The soul life is in the blood and is passed on when the sperm impregnates the egg at the time of fertilization." 1971

How do I put this together, especially in regards to abortion issues?    

Lovingly,

Charlene Bishop

--------


I've also never heard anyone from twi explain this contradiction. I suspect they never have addressed the issue. Because they had an abortion fund, I also suspect their position was fluid based on whatever rationalization was necessary at a given moment.

 

 

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Long gone are the days when wierwille could hide behind the mask of revisionist history.  Anyone who wants to know details, timelines, and hard-hitting facts can research the past.  Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve, gives us plenty to dispel the myths.

  • Tragedy, sadness and death at the wierwille farm [p.12]
  • Vpw disliked conformity of riding school bus....got a motorcycle in high school [p.16]
  • The wierwilles married in secret to bypass seminary code regulations [p.28]
  • On July 6, 1941....vpw installed as minister for St. Jacob's Evangelical and Reformed Church in Payne, Ohio [p.33]
  • In June 1944, wierwilles move to Van Wert, Ohio....bigger church, St. Peter's Evangelical and Reformed Church [p.45]
  • Wierwille attends E. Stanley Jones Ashram in North Carolina....in July 1944 [p.48]
  • On July 28, 1948....wierwille gets "doctorate" from degree-mill Pikes Peak Seminary in Manitou Springs, Colorado [p.67]
  • In February 1953....vpw sits thru B.G. Leonard's class "The Gifts of the Spirit" in Calgary, Alberta [p.91]
  • Etc. etc......
  • Wierwilles leave the denominational church in August 1957 [p.216]
  • On December 19, 1957.....wierwilles run first meeting of "The Way, Inc." [p.219]

Back in the 70's.......wierwille bloviated over his calling, accomplishments, credentials, etc. but a thorough study shows the real picture.  Incrementally and strategically, wierwille was an opportunist.  He utilized plagiarism, a degree-mill seminary, and a stolen class to gain a small portion of accreditation. Yet, even then.......adults were not easily fooled by these tactics.  Thus, wierwille's target was the youth.  Once off the church payroll, wierwille struggled immensely for nearly 15 years [1957-1972] to garner a following.  

I contend that wierwille's "career accomplishments" had 3 segments:

  1. 16 years on church payroll.....in Payne and Van Wert, Ohio [1941-1957]
  2. 14 years struggling to build a following and pay the bills  [1958-1972]
  3. 10 years of exceeding growth, prosperity and adulation [1972-1982]

It wasn't until March 1972.....when wierwille swooped in and grabbed Doop's and Hefner's ministry work......that transformed twi into a youth movement.  Mrs. Wierwille's book documents the struggles and challenges.  Even people who sat in wierwille's live classes in 1961, 1962, 1963, etc......did NOT stick.  They sat thru his class, but then went back to their church.  Time and again, wierwille pleads in his mailing list to stay faithful to his ministry and TITHE WEEKLY.  Even when pfal was filmed in 1967, wierwille was struggling mightily to stay ahead of the bills for the studio, lighting, furniture.

Some regard "The Red Thread" as one of wierwille's best teachings......yet, it was plagiarized from Rev. Oral Roberts.  Was wierwille so spiritually bankrupt that even at the tail end of his ministry years he still had to plagiarize from others?  Yep.

Stolen teachings.  Stolen classes. Stolen glory.

So, really......only about 10 years of a thriving ministry until wierwille retired in October 1982 and handed the reins over to Martindale.  When wierwille stepped off-stage.....the power conflicts began in earnest.  Subtle at first.....but nonetheless, they were there.  The top-tier leaders were staking their claims to their regions.  Geer was in Europe.  Former corps coordinators had gained measurable influence.  Wierwille died and twi splintered a hundred ways.

Research the facts.......stop the indoctrination.

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On 6/6/2021 at 10:11 AM, skyrider said:

In my opinion, nothing cuts through twi-nostalgia faster than the blunt facts-on-the-ground.

So often, people wonder why way corps throw in the towel.......and walk away.  Lots of reasons, I'm sure.......but the increased burdens and hardships mounted incessantly from 1978 and onward.  When wierwille mandated to ALL CORPS an extra week of work/service to the annual pilgrimage of the rock of ages festival .....IT WAS THE BEGINNING OF THE END.  Wierwille's narcissism blinded him from seeing it coming.

Here at GreaseSpot Cafe.....have you noticed that, most always, the greatest wierwille-apologists are NOT CORPS.  They spout how wierwille "walked with God" and his teachings were incredible.  Yet, they never delve into the realities and burdens of these religious mandates.  Despite wierwille's plagiarism, sexual predation, research foibles, private indoctrination, manipulation and exploitation, etc. ..... wierwille and top-tier leaders didn't have a clue of the daily lives of these followers/corps.

The blunt facts-on-the-ground...

"Going to the Rock and Corps Week was a major ordeal. V.P. wrote a letter to the Corps saying his heart was broken that so many Corps left prior to the Rock. His words were, "Corps...if you can't stand with me at the Rock, then don't bother coming to Corps Week either. If your job won't let you to, quite your job!" Then he said something about wavering in our believing.

So, to pull that off, one had to get a job that gave you 3 weeks vacation a year. It takes about 3 days to drive from Idaho to Ohio, 2 weeks at HQ, 3 days to drive back. It took money to fly, which meant you had to have a good job, which few of us did. So tell me where a person can get a job that gives them 3 weeks off a year right off the bat. Yet, if one was on staff, you were given time for Rock and Corps Week, plus given two weeks vacation a year. Then one day visiting clergy came to the state. One of the Corps Coordinators and taught a seminar on government. Oooh! Now that's certainly worth a 9-hour trip! Afterwards, he meets with the Corps and asks us why more Corps don't come to Way Family Camps. It was then I realized that TWI leadership was completely out of touch with what was going on out on the field. For the first time in my 10-year involvement in TWI, I'm starting to get disgruntled.

Then, to top it off, I received a letter from Donald Wierwille. He's mad because the College Division Alumnae who were also Corps Grads (me) were not attending special College Division functions. He went as far as to say we had "attitude problems". I worked 12-hour days at the Rock, man, for free! In fact, I paid my own way to get there. One year I sold my car just to have enough to go and listen to "God's Word Served on a Silver Platter" for the like the 15th time. Now here's this guy in his ivory tower issuing smart-assed accusations about something of which he knows nothing. I was ....ed!

I was considering writing a nasty letter back and weighing whether it was worth getting kicked out of the Corps over. I doubt I would have had the guts to really do it, but I was on my way. It became a moot point about a week later because that's when Geer read Passing of the Patriarch for the first time. I sort of thought that Dean Don may be somewhat busy at that point.

So, there you have it."

 

Why it’s mostly non-way corps who are wierwille-apologists at Grease Spot use to mystify me for the longest time until I realized the cause of my bewilderment. I had the “unfortunate advantage” of experiencing the inner workings of The Way International.

 

The actual components that went into   manufacturing “the perfect believer” were only known by those who worked in the factory - the way corps program - a “modern marvel” of mass production - a fully automated facility that gathered the raw material (folks like me who totally bought into wierwille’s delusion).

We were scrutinized,

personal boundaries were compromised,

we were chastised and pulverized,

family and friends may be demonized if the litmus test of “The Word” applies, 

We were cult-leader-mesmerized to the point he was idolized

some of us were even brutalized,

We were socially polarized,

Our intuition was anesthetized even critical thinking was immobilized 

Became a subculture homogenized,  

stringing-chairs-incentivized,

Our cost of living was subsidized,

PFAL galvanized,

authentic-self marginalized,

make-believe-we’re-super-sized-yet-deep inside-we’re-trivialized,

infamously immortalized,

gypsy lifestyle was popularized,

multilevel marketing customized get all the sales reps energized

and officially authorized to be little clones of wierwille - i.e. “the perfect believer”.  

Were you surprised to have realized you were wierwille-ized?

! ! ! !             ! ! ! !

“The perfect believer” existed only in the imagination of wierwille and was never compatible with reality. 

Edited by T-Bone
Somehow I got whacked out on alliteration...no condemnation?
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Hi Skyrider, it’s always good to read your posts! I’ve thought about you quite a bit. I hope all is well with you and your family. :knuddel: :beer:  :rolleyes:

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4 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Why it’s mostly non-way corps who are wierwille-apologists at Grease Spot use to mystify me for the longest time until I realized the cause of my bewilderment. I had the “unfortunate advantage” of experiencing the inner workings of The Way International.

I found it really hard when I got out.  I'd hooked up with some exWayfers who were running fellowships in their home: two fellowships in nearby cities.  And one of these exWayers generously allowed me to stay with him while I was in the process of buying my house.  None of these people had been Corps - in fact, I don't even know if any of them had taken the advanced class.  I was pretty broken and smashed about at the time, but they couldn't hear the pain I was in, couldn't hear the things I said.  The female most sympathetic just thought I should get over it; another male thought he could lord it over me; and the one I was staying with seemed to idolise VPW.  None of them would hear a word against VPW, his plagiarism, the stuff that went on at HQ, etc etc. A couple of years later I learned that a lovely young man in one of these fellowships proposed to go and join Sowers. Having read a lot about that here, I took him out for a walk in the park and told him a few home truths about the likely setup, based on what I knew of WC training.  He decided to go ahead anyway but (happily) couldn't get the visa and never went.

I stopped hanging out with these groups before very long - a few months.  And happily I found a very good church where people realised I was hurting about something I wouldn't talk about, and they just gave me space, but kind space.  Still nobody in the church knows my history.  But I do know that that church has become home to quite a few people who have got out from other abusive church relationships - Plymouth Brethren, among other cultish stuff/

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4 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Were you surprised to have realized you were wierwille-ized?

 

Exactly, T-Bone...... :eusa_clap::eusa_clap::eusa_clap:

I've often referred to the corps program as "The Clone Factory."  Why did we have to be cloned little Johnnie Townsends who followed Wierwille like little puppy dogs....cowering every time our "owner" barked an order?  It was debasement.....lowering ourselves in value, quality, character, dignity, etc.

The corps program was cult indoctrination.  Having attended two years of college education.......THIS was not education.  Oftentimes, we didn't even know the next day's schedule until they told us at breakfast.  This was not a proper curriculum......this was strict, cult obedience.  A good believer is a follower.....thus, attuned to listening and obeying.  How did that work out for us?

I took a break from GSC.......but all is well.  Very well, indeed. 

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23 minutes ago, Twinky said:

I found it really hard when I got out.  I'd hooked up with some exWayfers who were running fellowships in their home: two fellowships in nearby cities.  And one of these exWayers generously allowed me to stay with him while I was in the process of buying my house.  None of these people had been Corps - in fact, I don't even know if any of them had taken the advanced class.  I was pretty broken and smashed about at the time, but they couldn't hear the pain I was in, couldn't hear the things I said.  The female most sympathetic just thought I should get over it; another male thought he could lord it over me; and the one I was staying with seemed to idolise VPW.  None of them would hear a word against VPW, his plagiarism, the stuff that went on at HQ, etc etc. A couple of years later I learned that a lovely young man in one of these fellowships proposed to go and join Sowers. Having read a lot about that here, I took him out for a walk in the park and told him a few home truths about the likely setup, based on what I knew of WC training.  He decided to go ahead anyway but (happily) couldn't get the visa and never went.

I stopped hanging out with these groups before very long - a few months.  And happily I found a very good church where people realised I was hurting about something I wouldn't talk about, and they just gave me space, but kind space.  Still nobody in the church knows my history.  But I do know that that church has become home to quite a few people who have got out from other abusive church relationships - Plymouth Brethren, among other cultish stuff/

Hi Twinky.   Yes, it's alarming to experience that some Christian believers (??) can't hear the pain or know how to support and comfort.  When my wife and I exited twi, several offshoot groups wanted us to join them.  They were offering twi-lite.......warts and all.  Ugh.  No thanks.

Here in Indianapolis......home turf for John Lynn, John Schonheit, Mark Graes3r and others.....splinter cults were everywhere.  One time, when we attended a wedding.....there were people at our reception table (who we had known from years before) in 3 different offshoots. LOL.  We run into people who've left Geer's group, CFF, Finnegan's group, and Panarello's.  Hahahahaha

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The people who have posted to GSC (and before that, Waydale) have been outspoken for a reason. 

Wouldn't it be intriguing to get sociologists/psychologists who study cults to do some legitimate academic research on former (and if possible, current) twi followers to survey various issues... including, but not limited to, the variety of spiritual/religious paths taken by those followers... and the frequency and intensity of psychological disorders, like depression, anxiety and PTSD.

If only anyone had access to a mailing list... (I'd work on finding qualified academic researchers to do such a study). Data can be amazingly eye-opening.

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On 6/6/2021 at 8:04 PM, Rocky said:


Speaking of indoctrination, Penworks, a couple of weeks ago shared a letter with me that she wrote (but never sent) to Walter Cummins about a particular contradiction in scripture and TWI teaching (and practice). I have it on my google drive and have set it so that anyone with the link can view it. But I haven't figured out where I might be able to post it online such that I can display it here. She wrote the letter after she left TWI.

Charlene gave me permission to post it to GSC. Here's the text of the letter:

Dear Walter,

I'm in need of help in understanding soul life. Can you help me?

Advanced Class '79 "The first breath of a child is soul life, until that time there is no soul life."

PFAL p. 237 "The soul life is in the blood and is passed on when the sperm impregnates the egg at the time of fertilization." 1971

How do I put this together, especially in regards to abortion issues?    

Lovingly,

Charlene Bishop

--------


I've also never heard anyone from twi explain this contradiction. I suspect they never have addressed the issue. Because they had an abortion fund, I also suspect their position was fluid based on whatever rationalization was necessary at a given moment.

 

 

The "explanation" given by vpw was that when a person died, they "took their last breath." [CHAPTER AND VERSE, PLEASE.]  Therefore, since life ENDED with the LAST breath [SAYS WHO?]  then it would have to officially BEGIN with the FIRST breath.   The closest there was to any actual Bible verses used was to cite Adam's first breath, and generalize that universally as "the moment when life begins for everyone, everywhere, including animals, in perpetuity."  

 

The sentence "The first breath of the child is soul life, until that time there is no soul life" appears in the Advanced class, but this is yet another time vpw spoke error.  His lack of understanding of deep matters meant he flubbed them a lot if he couldn't recite from memory the answer of someone who understood better than him.

Why am I so sure that this doctrine of vpw and twi IS ERROR?

It's error because the Bible says otherwise......

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4 minutes ago, WordWolf said:

The "explanation" given by vpw was that when a person died, they "took their last breath." [CHAPTER AND VERSE, PLEASE.]  Therefore, since life ENDED with the LAST breath [SAYS WHO?]  then it would have to officially BEGIN with the FIRST breath.   The closest there was to any actual Bible verses used was to cite Adam's first breath, and generalize that universally as "the moment when life begins for everyone, everywhere, including animals, in perpetuity."  

 

The sentence "The first breath of the child is soul life, until that time there is no soul life" appears in the Advanced class, but this is yet another time vpw spoke error.  His lack of understanding of deep matters meant he flubbed them a lot if he couldn't recite from memory the answer of someone who understood better than him.

Why am I so sure that this doctrine of vpw and twi IS ERROR?

It's error because the Bible says otherwise......

I'm also confident that vpw's pronouncement on this subject was an intricate part of his rationalization for effing whomever he pleased (and could convince to let him) and if she got pregnant, then nobody's conscience had to be heavy laden with guilt.

In keeping with the theme of this thread, it reeks of indoctrination that underpinned Wierwille's self-justifying rationalizations.

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https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/24071-when-is-it-a-person-when-is-it-alive/

vpw put forth the erroneous, self-serving doctrine that a baby, before it is born,

is not actually a person. He said it was a THING, a POTENTIAL person,

"until it takes its first breath." This allowed him to have twi'ers counsel women

to have abortions whenever twi found it inconvenient for them to carry to term.

Almost all of it was based purely on vpw's exposition-what he called

"private interpretation." The only verse he EVER used on the subject was

Luke 1:35.

We should all be aware by now that whenever vpw based a doctrine on a single verse,

A) it was self-serving and benefited him

B) it was based on a misreading of the verse (or a deliberate error)

King James Version, Luke 1:35

"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

NIV, Luke 1:35

"The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.

So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God."

NASB, Luke 1:35

"The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God."

ESV, Luke 1:35

"And the angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you;

therefore the child to be born will be called holy--the Son of God."

CEV, Luke 1:35

"The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come down to you, and God's power will come over you. So your

child will be called the holy Son of God."

Then there's the less literal versions.

The only one who mentions a "thing" is the KJV.

In fact, even the NEW KJV says....

NKJV, Luke 1:35

"And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God."

Last time I studied this in the Greek, I found the most literal word-for-word translation for that phrase

matches the NIV and the NKV.

The word "hagion" in the Stephens Text (per the Gordon Ricker-Berry Interlinear) is what the KJV

renders "holy THING."

That's a little odd, since the plural of this word is what's rendered "SAINTS" in the Epistles in the KJV,

the "holy ones".

This "thing" thing is ERROR.

Actually, back in twi-timeframes, I was going verse-by-verse through the Greek on much of the New

Testament. (I had the time.) I did look at this verse, Luke 1:35. It is true that the English calls Jesus

"that holy thing". It also says "replenish" in Genesis, which has nothing to do with the Hebrew meaning

of the word, "to fill". So, we look at the Greek. The most literal Greek I got from Luke 1:35 in that

verse, from the phrase "holy thing", which was the Greek word "hagion", was "Holy One."

That's because the plural of that word, "oi hagioi", is translated as "the saints."

(My Bullinger's Critical Greek Lexicon notes that thus noun was used for "the saints" 61 times, and

"saint" in the singular once.)

This happens in the openings of several Church Epistles, like Romans 1:7, where the word "saints"

in

"to all those who are in Rome beloved of God called saints", the word "saints" is "hagiois".

So Jesus, at the time of "the Annunciation" (Gabriel visiting Mary) was referred to as a "hagios",

and I NOW am referred to as a "hagios". Either we are both a "thing" or we both are NOT.

Basic English places a noun as a person, place or thing. Since I am a person, I am not a "thing",

since I can't be both "person" and "thing" under basic definitions.

(Unless one wants to split hairs and go into different specialist vocabularies in an effort to obscure

the subject, anyway.)

Therefore, since I'm a person or a "holy one" in that expression, so was he.

That's using simple Bible cross-checking: the meaning in Luke 1:35 must agree with ALL usages in Scripture.

=======================================

In other words,

to any REASONABLE standard, it's clear that Jesus was not called a "holy thing" or any other kind

of "thing" anywhere except in the King James Version, and certainly not in the Greek texts from which

the KJV was translated.

Jesus was called a "holy one" there, to be most direct and most literal.

So, twi had/has no basis from Scripture for claiming a person begins only at the moment of birth.

So, does the Bible have anything to say on when an unborn fetus officially becomes a

"baby" or a person? Actually, it does-and it's well short of the 9 months vpw claimed...

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KJV:

"Luke 1:41

"And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost"

Luke 1:44

"For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy."

(Greek word 'brephos', which is also rendered "infant" or "young child" elsewhere.)

John was not born yet, but he was considered a babe/baby.

What month was he at?

Well, according to Gabriel, 6 months.

Luke 1:36.

"And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren."

So, John the Baptist, at 6 months if not sooner, was considered a baby, which is some 3 months before

"first breath" on the average.

That's "sometime before nine months".

Further,

at 6 months, there was some specificity in that he responded to Mary, and his response

somehow indicated a distinction between normal fetal movement and this SPECIFIC reaction.

That was in Luke 1:41, as description, and NOT simply a report of Elizabeth's opinion.

I expect there's any number of women who've carried a baby for the usual 9 months who

could attest to them reacting to stimuli and expressing approval or disapproval

in the last trimester.

=============================

So, what do we know?

We know that, sometime before they take their first breath, they are a baby.

We know that, sometime before 9 months, they are a baby.

We know that, at the 6th month, they are a baby.

We do NOT know if that is the beginning of them being called a baby,

or if there's some timeframe before that where the term begins to be applied.

We know that a baby is capable of responding to stimuli in the last trimester

and is capable of having EMOTIONS (like "joy".)

We do not know when that begins, but we know it applies in the last trimester.

That's hardly the precise, unambiguous answer we modern folk would like,

but it is certainly informative, and it definitely contradicts what vpw/twi

said/say. Even so, some people will refuse to see it no matter what

BECAUSE vpw taught one thing, so the Bible is not allowed to contradict

vpw no matter what.

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Twinky:

"VPW also used this verse to support his claim:

Ex 21:22: If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

VPW said that if she miscarried as a result of the fighting (striving), then the punishment was only a fine. If it had been a person, it would have had a life and the penalties for the taking of a life would have applied [death or banishment]. He glossed over or rather ignored the "no further mischief" aspect.

But look at this same verse in other translations. Several look at this as meaning simply "premature birth" and some go on to talk about premature birth with no further injury (mischief) - ie, death of the child/ren or the mother. The commentaries on this Biblehub link are interesting, especially Gill's commentary (at the bottom of the page)."

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