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4 hours ago, Raf said:

As respectfully as I can address a premise I now find ridiculous...

How do we account for a God who creates a tree whose main purpose in existing is to kill man, places it in a garden, then creates man.... and places him in the same F---ing garden? He could have put the tree in Australia. Or some other life-supporting planet in some other solar system. But no. Puts the tree right in front of the man and says don't eat of the delicious fruit of this here yummy tree.

You did WHAT?!?!?!

Well, without the shedding of blood there can be no remission of sin... according to whom? Who came up with THAT idea? Doesn't God get to decide the wages of sin? Why couldn't the wages of sin be $1.50. Because that wouldn't be just??? Who said shedding blood is just? Isn't it just because He said it is? I thought He decides what is just and what is not. The notion that the death of Christ served some independent standard of justice neglects Him as the author of justice.

Who did Christ's death pay? God? Why not just forgive the debt? What do you mean, he can't? Sure he can. He's omnipotent. Of course he can.

Unless the plot prohibits it.

That's the only thing that makes sense.

Wierwille (and Pillai) may have been on to something with the concept of Orientalisms. Except they focused to narrowly on individual phrases and expressions. Why did they not or would they not consider the entire culture from which the Old and New Testaments emerged and try to grasp the overall (i.e. the 30,000 foot view) in the first place? Just sayin'.

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21 hours ago, Rocky said:

Wierwille (and Pillai) may have been on to something with the concept of Orientalisms. Except they focused to narrowly on individual phrases and expressions. Why did they not or would they not consider the entire culture from which the Old and New Testaments emerged and try to grasp the overall (i.e. the 30,000 foot view) in the first place? Just sayin'.

Are you using Orientalisms as a way to explain and understand God’s actions, in requiring a ransom of death be paid to justify man sinning in the Garden of Eden? Not only demanding the death of his son, but burdening the rest of mankind with a sin nature they must carry with them for  the rest of thie lives? 

Are you saying if we fully grasped the full meaning of orientalisms (the 30,000 foot view), we would understand why God did what he did in the Garden of Eden, and then everything Raf suggested would be a moot point? 

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3 hours ago, Stayed Too Long said:

Are you using Orientalisms as a way to explain and understand God’s actions, in requiring a ransom of death be paid to justify man sinning in the Garden of Eden? Not only demanding the death of his son, but burdening the rest of mankind with a sin nature they must carry with them for  the rest of thie lives? 

Are you saying if we fully grasped the full meaning of orientalisms (the 30,000 foot view), we would understand why God did what he did in the Garden of Eden, and then everything Raf suggested would be a moot point? 

No, No and No.

I am saying we don't adequately understand the culture(s) in which these STORIES emerged. Your questions suggest the stories must be taken literally regardless of the cultural context. That's definitely not the point I was making. Thanks for asking. :wave:

 

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I'll put it back at you. IF you are a father (I don't know whether you are or not) and to have a beautiful, perfect child who would one day enable you to have an infinite number of same BUT you knew to have this you would also have a son (Adam) who would nearly screw things up...would you still go ahead and have that first child ?? I can only speak for myself and say YES !!
As for Rafs question of WHY place the tree of knowledge of good and evil smack bang in the 'midst' of the garden ? Well, that just magnifies man's inquisitive and disobedient nature...doesn't it. "Here Adam, here's a WHOLE lotta f...ing garden and panoramic sights for you to ENJOY...BUT don't wander over to that hole in the ground 250 miles to the west lest ye fall in and hurt yourself." Where do you think man's eventually going to go ??

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I love how he adds 250 miles to The Word.

Does The Word say 250 miles? Nope. How about putting it in Australia? Make it hard for him to find. Put it somewhere so that the sin would take actual work to commit.

Why did that tree exist in the first place?

And if another religion approached you saying the reason for suffering is that someone ate from a magic tree at the suggestion of a talking snake, how much serious consideration would you give it?

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4 hours ago, Raf said:

I love how he adds 250 miles to The Word.

Does The Word say 250 miles? Nope. How about putting it in Australia? Make it hard for him to find. Put it somewhere so that the sin would take actual work to commit.

Why did that tree exist in the first place?

And if another religion approached you saying the reason for suffering is that someone ate from a magic tree at the suggestion of a talking snake, how much serious consideration would you give it?

Neither does it say Adam was "in the midst" ? Adam could have been 251 miles away :)

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On 4/28/2022 at 5:07 PM, Stayed Too Long said:

What would you say about a father who allowed his son to suffer unimaginablly and be finally murdered? And at any time, this father could have intervened and put a halt to all this pain. This father stood by and allowed his son to go through a mock trial, allowed false witnesses to testify against him, watched as he was whipped, and thorns put upon his head, and finally murdered.

And why did this son have to endure all this pain and death? Because previously, this same father, set up another son to fail. With the full knowledge his son would not successfully complete the task, he put his son through it anyway. This failure would not only affect this son, but all future sons throughout eternity. Because of this son’s failure, the second son had to die to overcome it. 
 

This is not a good track record of a loving father; one son setup to fail, and the second setup to be murdered. 

This father should be reported to Children Protective Services immediately. It is too late to help these two sons, but current and future sons need to be protected from such an irresponsible parent.

 

 

 

Right. Wickedness. I would NEVER sacrifice my son for anything or anyone. Not for any ideology. Not for man-made theology. Not for self-interpreting stories written by superstitious ancient middle easterners. Not on a boat. Not with a goat. 

Scapegoating - there's a self-interpreting orientalism for you. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoat

Vicarious redemptionhttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitutionary_atonement

This man-made theological paradigm has ancient Jewish and pagan roots in gloved hands. 
 

 

Edited by Nathan_Jr
Glove fitting
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On 6/1/2022 at 12:36 AM, cman said:

My wife and I made 2 sons. I've told them not to do some things and they did it anyway. And I've told them to do some things that they didn't do.

I am sure every parent can relate to your experiences of raising children. Many times they do the opposite of what we wish they would. 
 

However, we are discussing God, the all loving, all knowing, and all powerful, creator. One would think he would have made us, from the beginning, perfect, not able to do stupid stuff. After all, that is exactly how life will be after the return, so it is within God’s grasp to make life perfect. 
 

But, if we look at Genesis 6:5-7: God has done some pretty stupid stuff, and he even acknowledges the error of his ways. This crazy action by God, resulted in mankind being destroyed. “And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the lord said, “I will destroy man….”

If God had fore knowledge, he would have known he created very imperfect people. Why make people, knowing you will wipe them off the face of the earth, in the future?

Cman, would there ever be any evil thing your 2 sons could do, that you would wish they had never been born, and kill them? 

 

Edited by Stayed Too Long
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5 minutes ago, Stayed Too Long said:

. . .

Cman, would there ever be any evil thing your 2 sons could do, that you would wish they had never been born, and kill them? 

 

Like Kill to Party?  We could wade through that flood of emotions and row that party boat until something surfaces.

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14 minutes ago, Stayed Too Long said:

. . .

However, we are discussing God, the all loving, all knowing, and all powerful, creator. One would think he would have made us, from the beginning, perfect, not able to do stupid stuff. After all, that is exactly how life will be after the return, so it is within God’s grasp to make life perfect. 
 

 

Unable to do stupid stuff?

As Father, "shh, don't tell your Mom" is a matter I take very seriously.

Don't get me started on the return.

F the return.

I don't wanna go.

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2 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Then there's the twisted game Yahweh played with Abraham and Isaac. This wicked game of parents murdering/sacrificing their own children is a self-interpreting, recurring theme. So wicked. 

Isn't that what the Trinity is about?  A cycle, right?

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A cycle of mind-F's?
 

It's belief in ideology, in religion, that allows man to justify wicked deeds like slavery, rape and child sacrifice.
 

This is why I don't believe in belief. Either I know or don't know. One must be "taught" how (H-O-W) to rationalize this kind of sickness. Abraham almost muerdering Isaac is a twisted horror story. 

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See Pinocchio was so disobedient his dad went to look for him and Pinocchio had to save him.  In a cave/whale in a flood/ocean.  The blue lady then gave him the holy ghost.  Jiminy Crickets.

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1 minute ago, Nathan_Jr said:

A cycle of mind-F's?
 

It's belief in ideology, in religion, that allows man to justify wicked deeds like slavery, rape and child sacrifice.
 

This is why I don't believe in belief. Either I know or don't know. One must be "taught" how (H-O-W) to rationalize this kind of sickness. Abraham almost muerdering Isaac is a twisted horror story. 

Don't worry, you don't need religion to do any of those things, I am told.

Wicked happens for the symbolic and the skeptic alike.

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Now, you can look at life, or lots of people can look at lots of lives . . .  Come up with themes . . . Make stories that distil into other stories that relate to the majority without explicitly stating what is meant 

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1 minute ago, Bolshevik said:

Don't worry, you don't need religion to do any of those things, I am told.

Wicked happens for the symbolic and the skeptic alike.

Right. But only religion and ideology can justify it. Religion causes otherwise sane and moral people to do stupid and wicked things. 

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Just now, Nathan_Jr said:

Right. But only religion and ideology can justify it. Religion causes otherwise sane and moral people to do stupid and wicked things. 

Are you limiting insanity?

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2 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Now, you can look at life, or lots of people can look at lots of lives . . .  Come up with themes . . . Make stories that distil into other stories that relate to the majority without explicitly stating what is meant 

One doesn't need to explicitly state a meaning that interprets itself in the original. 

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Just now, Nathan_Jr said:

Not at all. Insanity can be determined by chemical imbalance. This is sad. But insanity by free will believing in self-proclaimed authority is stupid. 

But all of experience is one hallucination.  Our illusion of choice is pretermined by a set of possibilities.  Such disfunctional authority is rooted in inevitable failures of systems billions of years old.

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22 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

A cycle of mind-F's?
 

It's belief in ideology, in religion, that allows man to justify wicked deeds like slavery, rape and child sacrifice.
 

If Lot and his daughters were living today they would be in prison, because incest is about as bad as it gets. One of the daughter’s offspring with Lot, was even made the head of the Moabites. Along with slavery, rape, and child sacrifice, add incest to the list of sins God allows. Where, oh where, is his mind?

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17 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

But all of experience is one hallucination.  Our illusion of choice is pretermined by a set of possibilities.  Such disfunctional authority is rooted in inevitable failures of systems billions of years old.

Probably. Predetermined by a set of possibilities or causes? Authority is the 2nd weakest reason to believe anything, according to Peirce  


 

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