Kinda the problem with The Way Tree structure is how was anyone supposed to check and balance him?
I am at a point where I see the Way Tree as having lived its life and is now dead. It was supposed to be temporary 50 years ago. I am telling TWI people this slowly.
What prevented me from learning from the collaterals is that they were written in gibberish. But considering the Manifestations, that was the standard.
No. What I am saying is that the truth of the WORD will make them free, and that the UGLY FACTS of the ministry will heavily distract them from the truth.
Can you see the difference?
yeah -- I can see that you think its ok to lie to someone to hook them with PFLAP. Honesty, openess, and intergrity is what is needed...not the hidden things of dishonesty.
I am at a point where I see the Way Tree as having lived its life and is now dead. It was supposed to be temporary 50 years ago. I am telling TWI people this slowly.
But I think it would hurt them to get these facts too early, before they built the Word in their lives.
You are correct. The truth would keep them from believing wierwilles lies in pflap and elsewhere....once they would find out the truth of the way international that should do it...yeah your right.
You are correct. The truth would keep them from believing wierwilles lies in pflap and elsewhere....once they would find out the truth of the way international that should do it...yeah your right.
The extreme ugliness of what the suppression of the Schoenheit paper meant to me in 1987, when I first saw it and after hearing much of it's suppression shook my confidence in what I was taught in the collaterals and everything else AT FIRST. It was emotion. As I went back to the Word I knew, I started processing it better.
The ugliness of TWI that I started gradually knowing in the late 70s, and the completion of that knowing in 1987, have not deterred me from promoting what was MOST BEAUTIFUL that came out of TWI, that is the collaterals.
For those who were so close to VPW that they could see the sin in his life, imitating that sin is an indication of them not having a proper understanding of the Word. Lots of leaders fell this way, and some that I knew very personally, and it was very sad for me when I saw them descend from being great servants to God's people this way.
It was the DOCTRINES of victor paul wierwille that imitators used to justify their sin.
Nope. It is temporary suspension of some facts for some newer people.
You forgot to mention those qualifiers.
And it is FACTS not truth that is the context.
No...that's lying no how many ways you try and say it isn't...it's like being in a relationship with someone who is hiding herpes. Personally I would wanna know to make an informed decision.
It was the DOCTRINES of victor paul wierwille that imitators used to justify their sin.
Not doctrines from the collaterals. Otherwise Schoenheit would have warned me about them. You're not processing what I said a few hours ago about my two full hour conversations with him. Look them up.
Not doctrines from the collaterals. Otherwise Schoenheit would have warned me about them. You're not processing what I said a few hours ago about my two full hour conversations with him. Look them up.
Why the heck does anyone care what Schoenheit thinks...that's the same guy who got caught up in personal prophecies against his buddies...yeah...let's believe him.
There is a need to shelter new students, new Bible readers, newly born again believers, babes in Christ. It should be a temporary sheltering, though.
A temporary sheltering of the truth? A postponed disillusionment?
Wow. The progressive, far left woke want the same thing. Hiding uncomfortable truth deprives people from learning how to deal with and understand it. This is ALWAYS a bad strategy, because truth will always, eventually, emerge. Then what? You are left with people Ill equipped to handle the truth.
No. What I am saying is that the truth of the WORD will make them free,
The primary and lasting error of victor paul wierwille's "ministry" is that the Truth is something to be possessed, and victor is the one who has it, and you, too, can have it if you only imitate him and stand on his shoulders.
Not doctrines from the collaterals. Otherwise Schoenheit would have warned me about them. You're not processing what I said a few hours ago about my two full hour conversations with him. Look them up.
Schoenheit has it? He is the arbiter? He has the Truth?
How would he have known? Why would he be the one that would have known?
He did? That's his opinion. You make him sound like someone with a lack of in depth perception and awareness.
You obviously don't know him or anything about him at all.
Maybe you are projecting in your complete ignorance of him.
He was a super researcher (still is) and the CHIEF WHISTLE BLOWER on the adultery with his famous 1986 paper. Did you read it? It is posted somewhere here. Ask a friend about it and him.
I have indicated to them that it was the secrecy that ruined things, when the secrets got out. I agree with you that MOST of the secrecy is extremely inefficient in that it fails to be secret eventually.
But sheltering new students from the garbage of yesteryear has its merits, so this is a matter of getting the right balance of openness and transparency versus sheltering (secrecy) new people from what would distract and discourage them from their study of the Word.
The tricky part for TWI leaders is to know when and how much THEY should tell the new people, as opposed to allowing them to find it out on GreaseSpot, or some other way that eliminates all the positives in an unbalance.
So you are running into the same ethical dilemma that the ministry leadership is in trying to put new wine in old wineskins?
No. What I am saying is that the truth of the WORD will make them free, and that the UGLY FACTS of the ministry will heavily distract them from the truth.
Can you see the difference?
Now I can see how someone all tangled up in the ugly facts of the ministry could use, in addition to the truths of the Word, could use some some facts regarding the ugly facts of the ministry.
But I think it would hurt them to get these facts too early, before they built the Word in their lives.
What I am totally against, is showing a new person the ugly facts prematurely, and cause them to abort all further learning of the Word from the collaterals in conjunction with Bible versions.
Please check out my two phone conversations with Schoenheit I posted a couple hours ago here on this thread. The collaterals, he implied, don't have any of that ugliness in them, and continuing a study of them will help them to do well.
Right. Ugly truths are to be augmented with prettier truths so they aren’t so ugly. Ugly facts that could lead to ugly truths need to be hidden, because really young believers to the cult need time to build the prettier truths into their head before facing the ugly facts that could direct them to the ugly truths rather than the prettier augmenting truths. And it’s only the prettier truths in the Word that will make them free not the uglier truths.
I see it all now.
I can see the difference.
Thanks for making it all so clear for me.
I think you are the perfect person to write the Ways history from 1982 - present.
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Twinky
Mike. Get this clear. I hate no-one. I hate ABUSE. Agape thinks no evil? Right. Agape calls evil out!! And I'm calling out the abuse that occurred and likely still occurs. That's not hate
chockfull
Okay reading thru this I find it hard to believe the lack of empathy. Mike is always looking to run down anyone who went thru the Corps as a problem. Actually, I don't find it hard t believe. The w
OldSkool
Correct! But a Christian organization that is all about material abundance is not a Christian orginazation at all because that's not what Christianity is about and its shameful to even attach Christ n
Mike
I am at a point where I see the Way Tree as having lived its life and is now dead. It was supposed to be temporary 50 years ago. I am telling TWI people this slowly.
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Bolshevik
What prevented me from learning from the collaterals is that they were written in gibberish. But considering the Manifestations, that was the standard.
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OldSkool
yeah -- I can see that you think its ok to lie to someone to hook them with PFLAP. Honesty, openess, and intergrity is what is needed...not the hidden things of dishonesty.
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Bolshevik
Ponzi schemes have that problem.
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OldSkool
You are correct. The truth would keep them from believing wierwilles lies in pflap and elsewhere....once they would find out the truth of the way international that should do it...yeah your right.
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Mike
The extreme ugliness of what the suppression of the Schoenheit paper meant to me in 1987, when I first saw it and after hearing much of it's suppression shook my confidence in what I was taught in the collaterals and everything else AT FIRST. It was emotion. As I went back to the Word I knew, I started processing it better.
The ugliness of TWI that I started gradually knowing in the late 70s, and the completion of that knowing in 1987, have not deterred me from promoting what was MOST BEAUTIFUL that came out of TWI, that is the collaterals.
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OldSkool
Suppressing the truth is what you were just advocating...which is lying...your ok with that as long as someone takes pflap...shameless.
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Mike
Nope. It is temporary suspension of some facts for some newer people.
You forgot to mention those qualifiers.
And it is FACTS not truth that is the context.
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OldSkool
Wtf is a local ministry officials...the officials are at HQ...your talking to volunteers who hold 0 sway and influence...they do what they are told.
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Nathan_Jr
It was the DOCTRINES of victor paul wierwille that imitators used to justify their sin.
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OldSkool
No...that's lying no how many ways you try and say it isn't...it's like being in a relationship with someone who is hiding herpes. Personally I would wanna know to make an informed decision.
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Mike
Not doctrines from the collaterals. Otherwise Schoenheit would have warned me about them. You're not processing what I said a few hours ago about my two full hour conversations with him. Look them up.
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OldSkool
Heck...wierwille used his own doctrines for those purposes too...acorn - fall - far - oak...something like that...
Malakas la seta bullshonta Mogadishu!
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Mike
Folks, I think we have beaten this horse to death. I have a backlog of responses on another thread, When Religion Becomes Traumatic.
I'll meet you over there.
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Nathan_Jr
How would he have known? Why would he be the one that would have known?
He did? That's his opinion. You make him sound like someone with a lack of in depth perception and awareness.
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OldSkool
Run..rabbit...run.
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OldSkool
Why the heck does anyone care what Schoenheit thinks...that's the same guy who got caught up in personal prophecies against his buddies...yeah...let's believe him.
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Nathan_Jr
A temporary sheltering of the truth? A postponed disillusionment?
Wow. The progressive, far left woke want the same thing. Hiding uncomfortable truth deprives people from learning how to deal with and understand it. This is ALWAYS a bad strategy, because truth will always, eventually, emerge. Then what? You are left with people Ill equipped to handle the truth.
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Nathan_Jr
Why? How could they when they were conditioned to not go beyond what the charlatan taught?
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Nathan_Jr
The primary and lasting error of victor paul wierwille's "ministry" is that the Truth is something to be possessed, and victor is the one who has it, and you, too, can have it if you only imitate him and stand on his shoulders.
A wicked deception.
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Nathan_Jr
Schoenheit has it? He is the arbiter? He has the Truth?
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Mike
You obviously don't know him or anything about him at all.
Maybe you are projecting in your complete ignorance of him.
He was a super researcher (still is) and the CHIEF WHISTLE BLOWER on the adultery with his famous 1986 paper. Did you read it? It is posted somewhere here. Ask a friend about it and him.
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chockfull
So you are running into the same ethical dilemma that the ministry leadership is in trying to put new wine in old wineskins?
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chockfull
Right. Ugly truths are to be augmented with prettier truths so they aren’t so ugly. Ugly facts that could lead to ugly truths need to be hidden, because really young believers to the cult need time to build the prettier truths into their head before facing the ugly facts that could direct them to the ugly truths rather than the prettier augmenting truths. And it’s only the prettier truths in the Word that will make them free not the uglier truths.
I see it all now.
I can see the difference.
Thanks for making it all so clear for me.
I think you are the perfect person to write the Ways history from 1982 - present.
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