Just a bit off topic. Typical, I guess. I haven't even read more than half of the posts in that trinity thread I did awhile back.
Speculation, in and of itself, is OK. Every post contains a mix of facts, opinions, and speculation. That's how humans communicate.
I am not a 'spiritual heavyweight'....I merely have the spirit of God, incorruptible seed, and peace in my heart.
In 1994 I chose my marriage over the ministry that taught me the word. Sometimes people have to choose their marriage over their job. When those in your life get too bullying and controlling, you have to stand up to them. Not easy to do. VP himself wrote in 'Lifestyle of a believer' that at times you have 2 clear and plain duties which conflict and you have to decide which one to perform and which one to neglect.
In 1994 those a$$holes told me that I and my then 5 year old daughter were welcome, but my wife and then 4 year old autistic son were not. Game over. I wrote a scathing letter and sent copies to limb/region coordinator (who later admitted he'd been following a lunatic for 6 years), trunk cordo, and LCM. Not many days hence I received a letter telling me that I am no longer welcome at any TWI fellowship. Praise God!!!
Twenty eight years later, still married, still have the spirit of God. If I had chosen the ministry that taught me the word in 1994, they would surely have pressured me to divorce and "free myself". I have plenty to show for leaving the ministry that taught me the word. I moved from Michigan to St. Louis under financially questionable circumstances. Got a solvent job, a 4 bedroom house (only had 2 paystubs at closing), and we're doing good. God truly is my sufficiency. TWI thinks I have "departed from the faith"....I think they have made shipwreck of their faith.
You guys can throw all the self righteous vomit at me and Mike that you wish. THAT'S the real 'strawman'.
Just a bit off topic. Typical, I guess. I haven't even read more than half of the posts in that trinity thread I did awhile back.
Speculation, in and of itself, is OK. Every post contains a mix of facts, opinions, and speculation. That's how humans communicate.
I am not a 'spiritual heavyweight'....I merely have the spirit of God, incorruptible seed, and peace in my heart.
In 1994 I chose my marriage over the ministry that taught me the word. Sometimes people have to choose their marriage over their job. When those in your life get too bullying and controlling, you have to stand up to them. Not easy to do. VP himself wrote in 'Lifestyle of a believer' that at times you have 2 clear and plain duties which conflict and you have to decide which one to perform and which one to neglect.
In 1994 those a$$holes told me that I and my then 5 year old daughter were welcome, but my wife and then 4 year old autistic son were not. Game over. I wrote a scathing letter and sent copies to limb/region coordinator (who later admitted he'd been following a lunatic for 6 years), trunk cordo, and LCM. Not many days hence I received a letter telling me that I am no longer welcome at any TWI fellowship. Praise God!!!
Twenty eight years later, still married, still have the spirit of God. If I had chosen the ministry that taught me the word in 1994, they would surely have pressured me to divorce and "free myself". I have plenty to show for leaving the ministry that taught me the word. I moved from Michigan to St. Louis under financially questionable circumstances. Got a solvent job, a 4 bedroom house (only had 2 paystubs at closing), and we're doing good. God truly is my sufficiency. TWI thinks I have "departed from the faith"....I think they have made shipwreck of their faith.
You guys can throw all the self righteous vomit at me and Mike that you wish. THAT'S the real 'strawman'.
My apologies I was a jerk...I can do better. Thanks for sharing your story and you did the right thing for your family...be proud of that. Again, my apologies.
Every post contains a mix of facts, opinions, and speculation. That's how humans communicate.
EVERY post? Not so fast! Some posts are pure fact, some are pure opinion, some are pure speculation; Some are a mix of only fact and opinion; others are speculation and opinion, but no facts.
3 hours ago, johniam said:
the ministry that taught me the word
What does that mean?
The word = YourWalk+YourBelieving+TheBible+ChristInYou?
That "ministry" taught a great deal of factual error, silly opinion and outrageous speculation. I hope you know you can go far beyond what you were taught, if you want.
3 hours ago, johniam said:
When those in your life get too bullying and controlling, you have to stand up to them
TOO bullying and controlling? When those in your life get bullying and controlling AT ALL, you have to stand up to them. Those controlling bullies were imitating and standing on the shoulders of victor paul wierwille.
VP himself wrote in 'Lifestyle of a believer' that at times you have 2 clear and plain duties which conflict and you have to decide which one to perform and which one to neglect.
Is that what VP himself wrote? You think this is some kind of profound insight? It’s not.
This has been obvious to virtually every human being for at least 100,000 years.
I totally agree with an unvarnished hate free history.
That is nice to hear. In my plans, and in my activity so far, including some GreaseSpot people in a history writing committee is important. This place is pretty thorough in the gathering of the negative aspectgs of the history, but overly so. Lots of exaggerations and even lies enter the mix unfiltered.
TWI is just the opposite. Some of them are pretty expert and thorough in gathering the positive aspects of the history, but hiding or whitewashing the negatives.
The history is not that complicated. There is a true version found here and not another version except Mrs VPW book covers early history.
What does TWI say regarding you taking on this endeavor? Do you have any support from them?
I am mostly thinking of TWI history from 1982 to 2022.
I’ve had only the tiniest talks of this with local ministry officials, like just me mentioning something in passing with zero detail.But with a couple of smart unofficial leaders who live very far from me, I have had very detailed conversations for about a year. They want to do it with me. They know their perspective on things will be lost in history if they don’t make an effort to get a full and unvarnished history out and available.
You will never be able to figure that one out unless you see it for yourself, and you arent in their same caste. Why do you think everything with them is condidential? Its not like they are gaurding military secrets...why does a so called Christian ministry need so much secrecy?
I have indicated to them that it was the secrecy that ruined things, when the secrets got out. I agree with you that MOST of the secrecy is extremely inefficient in that it fails to be secret eventually.
But sheltering new students from the garbage of yesteryear has its merits, so this is a matter of getting the right balance of openness and transparency versus sheltering (secrecy) new people from what would distract and discourage them from their study of the Word.
The tricky part for TWI leaders is to know when and how much THEY should tell the new people, as opposed to allowing them to find it out on GreaseSpot, or some other way that eliminates all the positives in an unbalance.
I have indicated to them that it was the secrecy that ruined things, when the secrets got out. I agree with you that MOST of the secrecy is extremely inefficient in that it fails to be secret eventually.
But sheltering new students from the garbage of yesteryear has its merits, so this is a matter of getting the right balance of openness and transparency versus sheltering (secrecy) new people from what would distract and discourage them from their study of the Word.
The tricky part for TWI leaders is to know when and how much THEY should tell the new people, as opposed to allowing them to find it out on GreaseSpot, or some other way that eliminates all the positives in an unbalance.
You're talking about spiritual maturity. Someone mentioned that.
You are treating adults as infants. Adults are not infants. You've broken their trust and that's what you're dancing around.
When you distill these deep reasons to their essence, you will find that essence to be the imitation of and the standing on the shoulders of victor paul wierwille.
I think there is a lot of truth in that.
The Word says everyone has sin in their life.
For those who were so close to VPW that they could see the sin in his life, imitating that sin is an indication of them not having a proper understanding of the Word. Lots of leaders fell this way, and some that I knew very personally, and it was very sad for me when I saw them descend from being great servants to God's people this way.
For those who were so close to VPW that they could see the sin in his life, imitating that sin is an indication of them not having a proper understanding of the Word. Lots of leaders fell this way, and some that I knew very personally, and it was very sad for me when I saw them descend from being great servants to God's people this way.
You are saying that YOU knew better than VPW.
Edited by Bolshevik Revealed my bad grammar nature
it was systemic and you are fully aware and still pumping this trash which at this point makes you culpable by agreeing with it and trying to re-rationalize it all away. It was wrong then, it's wrong now and I don't care if only one person was victimized just a tiny little bit - its all wrong!
Hold on there!
I pump ZERO trash.
I pump the collaterals mostly.
I also pump the anti-trash paper by Schoenheit.
TWICE, about 15 years ago, I had long conversations on the phone with Schoenheit about my focus on the collaterals as my only rule. Each call lasted an hour, and they were separated by about one year. I have posted this story at least twice here.
In each conversation he tried his best to talk me out of it, but in the end he gave up.
I was so amazed and thankful for what he said at the ends of both of those conversations.
He said that if I discipline my life to the collaterals and ONLY the collaterals (and implying that would include applying them to Bible translations), that I would do very well in life.
Of all the people in the world, I would count Schoenheit to be at the top (or near it) of the heap of people who know the collaterals inside and out.
If there was any trash in the collaterals that could mess me up, he would have known about it, and he would have warned me about it messing me up in our long conversations. But he knew they were sans trash.
He said I would do well with a collateral based life BECAUSE there is NO TRASH in them.
ROFLMAO!! What new folks? None of the directors are new. Heck - Bill Greene, John Rupp, and Angela Priester all worked together 25 years ago in the way of the USA, Angela ran the Advanced Class department which was in the way of the USA offices. All of them were around when...
Sorry. I may have been unclear there.
I meant new folks who just took the class, not new leadership.
Both of those "new folks" have been in this discussion, and I think I did not emphasize which I was referring to.
There is a need to shelter new students, new Bible readers, newly born again believers, babes in Christ. It should be a temporary sheltering, though.
If you go back and read my post with this set of "new folks" in mind, then it should make a lot more sense.
Can you imagine Jesus Christ wanting a pity party because people were mocking and misrepresenting him?
I do not want pity at all.
If I did, I am smart enough to know I could never find it here.
What I want is civil conversation about difficult issues, without lots of emotion thrown in to scuttle the conversation.
Now I have to admit, something. I don't know why, but somehow in the past two days there seems to be shift in strategies for dealing with me. The mocking and jeering diminished, and here we are discussing difficult things, and suddenly with far less of the childish type of hystrionics.
Maybe the mocking men and the jeering jesters have figured it out that none of that thwarts me, and they were wasting their time. Plus, it did not make them look good to the read-only audience prancing about like a comic version of LCM in tights.
I am thankful that we have actually been discussing things for the past two, maybe three days!
This place is pretty thorough in the gathering of the negative aspectgs of the history, but overly so. Lots of exaggerations and even lies enter the mix unfiltered.
TWI is just the opposite. Some of them are pretty expert and thorough in gathering the positive aspects of the history, but hiding or whitewashing the negatives
Is this opposite day? I must have missed the memo.
The real thing was a LOT more exciting than you're picturing it. "The huge, stupid, nostalgic error of Paul" was consenting of Stephen's DEATH, and planning to have all the Christians rounded up and imprisoned, including women and children.
That too was a big mistake, but I was referring to Luke blowing the whistle on Paul AFTER his conversion and ministry matured. That was the context of my post there. Luke published an unvarnished account of Paul going to Jerusalem, but the translators varnished it with one comma to erase Paul's mistake there.
The banning of the research paper that condemned adultery was completely an attempt to cover up the adultery. By preventing (they thought) any discussion and any thinking on the subject of adultery, they thought they could keep getting away with it- and some of them DID.
.I completely agreed with that. It was not only an attempt to cover it up, but an extremely stupid one. They were obviously cornered, and they panicked.
They had no idea how much more impact the imparted on the paper.
I Corinthians 13:6 KJV. "6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;" ... It means that I should not join in when someone suggests that orgies are fine with God and tries to twist the meaning of a verse to allow that. It also means that I should take my joy in actually knowing the truth on sexual morality and base my OWN actions on the truth.
The application of that verse that I had in mind is not rejoicing when someone tells another of the stories of TWI iniquity happening, and then reveling in the fact that now there is more to bash them about.
There is already plenty of that, and no need for more, unless you like that sort of thing, and dispense with the verse that condemns it.
We should feel very sad with each new story, and all the more dedicated to pray for them and find effectual ways to help them out of their hole.
So what you are REALLY saying is the truth doesnt make them free....sad. TWI past is so bad you have to hide it until people develop your same level of rationalization.
God truly is my sufficiency. TWI thinks I have "departed from the faith"....I think they have made shipwreck of their faith.
You guys can throw all the self righteous vomit at me and Mike that you wish. THAT'S the real 'strawman'.
Bravo, johniam!
You might find some comfort with the TWI-4.
1994 was a long time ago.
I do not look at myself as a meek follower of TWI-4, but more as a visiting consultant. I am offering them my help, and if they take it that would be great. Maybe after the big changes I'll decide to stay and help more. But I am dedicated to resist their residual baloney. I didn't see any in the locals, and that includes two long standing believers, both Reverends. HQ may still have some baloney to deal with, and I am prepared for that, but I am giving them the benefit of the doubt some. I like the much I see on the field locally, and I like the little I see at HQ so far. Their slowness to open up more, like the locals have, I am not so happy with. But I do know they are swamped with the work in Africa, so I wait a little bit longer.
In my plans, and in my activity so far, including some GreaseSpot people in a history writing committee is important.
All these dependent clauses and prepositional phrases! Yikes!
History is not written by committee, propaganda is.
1 hour ago, Mike said:
This place is pretty thorough in the gathering of the negative aspectgs of the history, but overly so. Lots of exaggerations and even lies enter the mix unfiltered.
Correction: This place is thorough in the gathering of objective historical FACTS. These facts have been objectively and subjectively judged to be mostly negative.
Lies and exaggerations are asserted. Those assertions are dealt with and corrected and sometimes even mocked.
1 hour ago, Mike said:
TWI is just the opposite. Some of them are pretty expert and thorough in gathering the positive aspects of the history, but hiding or whitewashing the negatives.
I have indicated to them that it was the secrecy that ruined things, when the secrets got out. I agree with you that MOST of the secrecy is extremely inefficient in that it fails to be secret eventually.
But sheltering new students from the garbage of yesteryear has its merits, so this is a matter of getting the right balance of openness and transparency versus sheltering (secrecy) new people from what would distract and discourage them from their study of the Word.
The tricky part for TWI leaders is to know when and how much THEY should tell the new people, as opposed to allowing them to find it out on GreaseSpot, or some other way that eliminates all the positives in an unbalance.
Sheltering students from any fact or truth NEVER has has merits, especially when a "teacher" claims to be trustworthy. A balance of openness and coverup? A wicked proposition. Only a deceiver would need to to strike this balance. Honesty, transparency, truth telling are not liabilities requiring a mitigation strategy.
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Twinky
Mike. Get this clear. I hate no-one. I hate ABUSE. Agape thinks no evil? Right. Agape calls evil out!! And I'm calling out the abuse that occurred and likely still occurs. That's not hate
chockfull
Okay reading thru this I find it hard to believe the lack of empathy. Mike is always looking to run down anyone who went thru the Corps as a problem. Actually, I don't find it hard t believe. The w
OldSkool
Correct! But a Christian organization that is all about material abundance is not a Christian orginazation at all because that's not what Christianity is about and its shameful to even attach Christ n
johniam
Just a bit off topic. Typical, I guess. I haven't even read more than half of the posts in that trinity thread I did awhile back.
Speculation, in and of itself, is OK. Every post contains a mix of facts, opinions, and speculation. That's how humans communicate.
I am not a 'spiritual heavyweight'....I merely have the spirit of God, incorruptible seed, and peace in my heart.
In 1994 I chose my marriage over the ministry that taught me the word. Sometimes people have to choose their marriage over their job. When those in your life get too bullying and controlling, you have to stand up to them. Not easy to do. VP himself wrote in 'Lifestyle of a believer' that at times you have 2 clear and plain duties which conflict and you have to decide which one to perform and which one to neglect.
In 1994 those a$$holes told me that I and my then 5 year old daughter were welcome, but my wife and then 4 year old autistic son were not. Game over. I wrote a scathing letter and sent copies to limb/region coordinator (who later admitted he'd been following a lunatic for 6 years), trunk cordo, and LCM. Not many days hence I received a letter telling me that I am no longer welcome at any TWI fellowship. Praise God!!!
Twenty eight years later, still married, still have the spirit of God. If I had chosen the ministry that taught me the word in 1994, they would surely have pressured me to divorce and "free myself". I have plenty to show for leaving the ministry that taught me the word. I moved from Michigan to St. Louis under financially questionable circumstances. Got a solvent job, a 4 bedroom house (only had 2 paystubs at closing), and we're doing good. God truly is my sufficiency. TWI thinks I have "departed from the faith"....I think they have made shipwreck of their faith.
You guys can throw all the self righteous vomit at me and Mike that you wish. THAT'S the real 'strawman'.
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chockfull
Naw man I’d rather celebrate with you the victories you shared. Awesome. God had your back.
Peace out.
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waysider
"The ministry that taught me the word."
Tell me what you really think without telling me what you really think.
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OldSkool
My apologies I was a jerk...I can do better. Thanks for sharing your story and you did the right thing for your family...be proud of that. Again, my apologies.
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Nathan_Jr
What does that mean? What is a spiritual heavyweight? Who "taught" you that term?
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Nathan_Jr
Is it?
EVERY post? Not so fast! Some posts are pure fact, some are pure opinion, some are pure speculation; Some are a mix of only fact and opinion; others are speculation and opinion, but no facts.
What does that mean?
The word = YourWalk+YourBelieving+TheBible+ChristInYou?
That "ministry" taught a great deal of factual error, silly opinion and outrageous speculation. I hope you know you can go far beyond what you were taught, if you want.
TOO bullying and controlling? When those in your life get bullying and controlling AT ALL, you have to stand up to them. Those controlling bullies were imitating and standing on the shoulders of victor paul wierwille.
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Nathan_Jr
Is that what VP himself wrote? You think this is some kind of profound insight? It’s not.
This has been obvious to virtually every human being for at least 100,000 years.
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Mike
That is nice to hear. In my plans, and in my activity so far, including some GreaseSpot people in a history writing committee is important. This place is pretty thorough in the gathering of the negative aspectgs of the history, but overly so. Lots of exaggerations and even lies enter the mix unfiltered.
TWI is just the opposite. Some of them are pretty expert and thorough in gathering the positive aspects of the history, but hiding or whitewashing the negatives.
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Mike
I am mostly thinking of TWI history from 1982 to 2022.
I’ve had only the tiniest talks of this with local ministry officials, like just me mentioning something in passing with zero detail. But with a couple of smart unofficial leaders who live very far from me, I have had very detailed conversations for about a year. They want to do it with me. They know their perspective on things will be lost in history if they don’t make an effort to get a full and unvarnished history out and available.
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Mike
I have indicated to them that it was the secrecy that ruined things, when the secrets got out. I agree with you that MOST of the secrecy is extremely inefficient in that it fails to be secret eventually.
But sheltering new students from the garbage of yesteryear has its merits, so this is a matter of getting the right balance of openness and transparency versus sheltering (secrecy) new people from what would distract and discourage them from their study of the Word.
The tricky part for TWI leaders is to know when and how much THEY should tell the new people, as opposed to allowing them to find it out on GreaseSpot, or some other way that eliminates all the positives in an unbalance.
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Bolshevik
You're talking about spiritual maturity. Someone mentioned that.
You are treating adults as infants. Adults are not infants. You've broken their trust and that's what you're dancing around.
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Mike
I think there is a lot of truth in that.
The Word says everyone has sin in their life.
For those who were so close to VPW that they could see the sin in his life, imitating that sin is an indication of them not having a proper understanding of the Word. Lots of leaders fell this way, and some that I knew very personally, and it was very sad for me when I saw them descend from being great servants to God's people this way.
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Bolshevik
You are saying that YOU knew better than VPW.
Edited by BolshevikRevealed my bad grammar nature
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Mike
Hold on there!
I pump ZERO trash.
I pump the collaterals mostly.
I also pump the anti-trash paper by Schoenheit.
TWICE, about 15 years ago, I had long conversations on the phone with Schoenheit about my focus on the collaterals as my only rule. Each call lasted an hour, and they were separated by about one year. I have posted this story at least twice here.
In each conversation he tried his best to talk me out of it, but in the end he gave up.
I was so amazed and thankful for what he said at the ends of both of those conversations.
He said that if I discipline my life to the collaterals and ONLY the collaterals (and implying that would include applying them to Bible translations), that I would do very well in life.
Of all the people in the world, I would count Schoenheit to be at the top (or near it) of the heap of people who know the collaterals inside and out.
If there was any trash in the collaterals that could mess me up, he would have known about it, and he would have warned me about it messing me up in our long conversations. But he knew they were sans trash.
He said I would do well with a collateral based life BECAUSE there is NO TRASH in them.
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Mike
Sorry. I may have been unclear there.
I meant new folks who just took the class, not new leadership.
Both of those "new folks" have been in this discussion, and I think I did not emphasize which I was referring to.
There is a need to shelter new students, new Bible readers, newly born again believers, babes in Christ. It should be a temporary sheltering, though.
If you go back and read my post with this set of "new folks" in mind, then it should make a lot more sense.
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Mike
I do not want pity at all.
If I did, I am smart enough to know I could never find it here.
What I want is civil conversation about difficult issues, without lots of emotion thrown in to scuttle the conversation.
Now I have to admit, something. I don't know why, but somehow in the past two days there seems to be shift in strategies for dealing with me. The mocking and jeering diminished, and here we are discussing difficult things, and suddenly with far less of the childish type of hystrionics.
Maybe the mocking men and the jeering jesters have figured it out that none of that thwarts me, and they were wasting their time. Plus, it did not make them look good to the read-only audience prancing about like a comic version of LCM in tights.
I am thankful that we have actually been discussing things for the past two, maybe three days!
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waysider
Is this opposite day? I must have missed the memo.
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Mike
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OldSkool
So what you are REALLY saying is the truth doesnt make them free....sad. TWI past is so bad you have to hide it until people develop your same level of rationalization.
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Mike
Bravo, johniam!
You might find some comfort with the TWI-4.
1994 was a long time ago.
I do not look at myself as a meek follower of TWI-4, but more as a visiting consultant. I am offering them my help, and if they take it that would be great. Maybe after the big changes I'll decide to stay and help more. But I am dedicated to resist their residual baloney. I didn't see any in the locals, and that includes two long standing believers, both Reverends. HQ may still have some baloney to deal with, and I am prepared for that, but I am giving them the benefit of the doubt some. I like the much I see on the field locally, and I like the little I see at HQ so far. Their slowness to open up more, like the locals have, I am not so happy with. But I do know they are swamped with the work in Africa, so I wait a little bit longer.
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Nathan_Jr
All these dependent clauses and prepositional phrases! Yikes!
History is not written by committee, propaganda is.
Correction: This place is thorough in the gathering of objective historical FACTS. These facts have been objectively and subjectively judged to be mostly negative.
Lies and exaggerations are asserted. Those assertions are dealt with and corrected and sometimes even mocked.
This is called propaganda.
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Mike
No. What I am saying is that the people who were close to vpw, and who saw his sin, SHOULD have known better than him.
I
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Bolshevik
Kinda the problem with The Way Tree structure is how was anyone supposed to check and balance him?
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Nathan_Jr
Sheltering students from any fact or truth NEVER has has merits, especially when a "teacher" claims to be trustworthy. A balance of openness and coverup? A wicked proposition. Only a deceiver would need to to strike this balance. Honesty, transparency, truth telling are not liabilities requiring a mitigation strategy.
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