I wonder what the age distribution in Jesus' 12 apostles was.
Similarly for the about 500 disciples he eventually got.
Seems like they all were the hippie types, who could kinda drop everything and tour with Jesus like he was Jerry Garcia.
Hmmm, I'd estimate the age distribution to be about mid to late teens and into the twenties. That Jesus would know them cult tactics, too, I guess.
modern day usage of the world “cult” can cover a broad range of adoring fans – from benign, quirky, innocent like that movie or band has a cult following - - to harmful and controlling cults like The Way International or Scientology. After 20 years of his coming to Grease Spot Café I think it’s really creepy that Mike would insinuate the Lord Jesus Christ used harmful and controlling cult tactics. I’ll give him the benefit of a doubt that after 20 years of coming here, Mike may lack the situational awareness of Grease Spot Café’s purpose to expose the harmful and controlling cult tactics of The Way International.
I find it deeply disturbing he indicates he cannot tell the difference between the benevolent, honest, compassionate words and works of the Lord Jesus Christ and the destructive, deceitful, exploitative words and works of wierwille / The Way International.
All we have are scriptures to guide us in these matters, and they plainly say that God's angels were hindered, and it was a tight struggle. I believe God's handling of this matter was the best way, and He tells us, with scriptures, what His angels had to go through. We should not second guess this situation; just learn from it. It was a close, difficult struggle.
Learn = acquire, retain and recall new information.
Theorize = to think of or suggest about what is possibly true or real.
Mike states all we have are the Scriptures as a guide – but he wanders off into theory-ville.
Where does it PLAINLY SAYin the account that “God's angels were hindered, and it was a tight struggle”? Mike’s statement is not using Scriptures as a guide. They’re more like a launchpad for improvisation.
I’ve noticed Mike’s commentary on accounts of divine beings in action, he usually seems to favor the bad guys. Odd…really odd... Reminds me of wierwille’s demonology – always fascinated with the dark side – as if to scare followers into trusting his twisted and perverted slant on the Bible will protect them from the boogie man.
Yes and no. If it's a really old boogie man, you might need the King James Version because of all the thee and thou references. Newer boogie men might be better addressed using The New Revised Version. If they're friendly boogie men, you might do well with The Good News Bible.
edit. Oops! I almost forgot The Children's Bible. That one should handle those "under the bed" variety boogie men.
When we stand before the bema, as the rabbi says, we aren't going to be asked, why weren't you Saint Vic? However, we could be asked why weren't you [your name]?
the difference between the benevolent, honest, compassionate words and works of the Lord Jesus Christ and the destructive, deceitful, exploitative words and works of wierwille / The Way International.
The pen is a double-edged sword. Use it to delete AND add words. Use your tools. Imitate victor in all things.
True dat!
True story:
After I took PFAL in ‘74 I bought a wide margin Bible that had the wide margins in the middle - 2 columns in the middle and passages on either side - sounds like something out of 4 crucified “on either side one” ; smart design cuz you’re not writing close to the edge (for suicidal writers. ) or close to the book binding (for those into bondage. … note same emoji used cuz effects of cult Kool-Aid the same).
I loved this hardbound Bible so much I had a leather cover made with a big fold over flap - put a round TWI logo sticker on the flap.
I put a lot of work into that Bible. It was KJV of course but did not have missing words italicized. So I went through entire Bible and underlined the words that were italicized using the small KJV Bible given to me by my girlfriend who got me in the class.
Used different colored pens and a straight edge to write notes from all of wierwille’s books, my own studies and it even had some corps notes too.
When we left TWI / our assignment location we had a garage sale - I scribbled out my name in the front and sold it for like $5 . I took the leather cover off that bad boy and put it on my hardbound Dakes Annotated Bible - they’re about the same size. I bought Dakes after using one in Rome City corps library - also noticed it might be something wierwille used in some teachings - like when he taught 15 things about blah blah - if you’ve ever used or seen a Dakes you’ll know what I’m talking about…oh yeah took the round TWI sticker off the flap. Still have Dakes - use it sometimes…the research that interprets itself and all that jazz.
Regrets?
Yes - I worry the lady that bought it started her own cult - and didn’t give me any credit for all the plagiarized material I put into it. I should have left my name on it…
I put a lot of work into that Bible. It was KJV of course but did not have missing words italicized. So I went through entire Bible and underlined the words that were italicized using the small KJV Bible given to me by my girlfriend who got me in the class.
Oh my Lord. I had one of those and a custom pen set that was multi-colored so I could underline in color. It was highlighted, underlined, and notated so badly that it was dang near useless by the time I was done with it. It landed in a trash can along with all my class syllabus back in 2008. Never misssed any of it for a second even.
After I took PFAL in ‘74 I bought a wide margin Bible that had the wide margins in the middle - 2 columns in the middle and passages on either side - sounds like something out of 4 crucified “on either side one” ; smart design cuz you’re not writing close to the edge (for suicidal writers. ) or close to the book binding (for those into bondage. … note same emoji used cuz effects of cult Kool-Aid the same).
I loved this hardbound Bible so much I had a leather cover made with a big fold over flap - put a round TWI logo sticker on the flap.
I put a lot of work into that Bible. It was KJV of course but did not have missing words italicized. So I went through entire Bible and underlined the words that were italicized using the small KJV Bible given to me by my girlfriend who got me in the class.
Used different colored pens and a straight edge to write notes from all of wierwille’s books, my own studies and it even had some corps notes too.
When we left TWI / our assignment location we had a garage sale - I scribbled out my name in the front and sold it for like $5 . I took the leather cover off that bad boy and put it on my hardbound Dakes Annotated Bible - they’re about the same size. I bought Dakes after using one in Rome City corps library - also noticed it might be something wierwille used in some teachings - like when he taught 15 things about blah blah - if you’ve ever used or seen a Dakes you’ll know what I’m talking about…oh yeah took the round TWI sticker off the flap. Still have Dakes - use it sometimes…the research that interprets itself and all that jazz.
Regrets?
Yes - I worry the lady that bought it started her own cult - and didn’t give me any credit for all the plagiarized material I put into it. I should have left my name on it…
To T-Bone be the the glory
great things he hath done
he so loved his cult
but now it’s not fun
Yes the Oxford double wide was my Bible. Plenty of room for notes. Unlike some I did not highlight the verses for each PFAL class in a different color. I did have extensive notes from various sources, and of course all the holy spirit markings and Bullingers “also”s marked as part of Corps requirements.
I think that is in a box in my garage still haven’t dumped it. But I read a shelf of various other Bible versions in its place and software lists them in views for the same verse.
Regrets? Yeah all the hamster wheel time put in underlining, marking, etc so that our “Gods Word” would exactly align with VPWs Bible interpretations. Then that large monstrosity became my “only rule for faith and practice” like a good wayfer, then the hamster could “run Forrest run” in the obedient simplistic path to “run more Plaffy classes”.
I regret it all and it’s all interwoven like a tapestry of Dante’s Inferno.
I am recalling way back to the 1970s to when I first started a paper folder for this topic.
The term "double doors" is merely an alliteration for an idea, making it easy go remember, and there are the iconic bar room double doors in our vocabulary. The idea may be in scriptures, but not with my nomenclature.
Nomenclature=Nomenclature is a system of names or terms, or the rules for forming these terms in a particular field of arts or sciences. The principles of naming vary from the relatively informal conventions of everyday speech to the internationally agreed principles, rules and recommendations that govern the formation and use of the specialist terminology used in scientific and any other disciplines.
Naming "things" is a part of general human communication using words and language: it is an aspect of everyday taxonomy as people distinguish the objects of their experience, together with their similarities and differences, which observers identify, name and classify. The use of names, as the many different kinds of nouns embedded in different languages, connects nomenclature to theoretical linguistics, while the way humans mentally structure the world in relation to word meanings and experience relates to the philosophy of language.
I am not trying to be super critical or pedantic…so how about some constructive criticism for developing your communication skills. As the definition says, naming things is a part of general human communication. One thing that bothers me in a discussion is when someone tries to redefine a word or create their own acronyms . Sorry to say this but you do that quite a bit.
A tangent of that is you sometimes attempt to squeeze a modern definition, imagery or concept into an ancient text. This thread for example. I get the idea of a set of bar room doors – same idea as restaurant double doors from dining area to kitchen – facilitates staff / servers to go in / out quickly and easily. I don’t see it in Scripture and thus far you have failed to show the idea in Scripture.
Bar room double doors may be in YOUR nomenclature, but they do not appear in Scripture. If I could make a suggestion of a book that has helped me – more than any other book - to cultivate, discipline and anchor my mind to biblical ideas it’sDictionary of Biblical Imagery by Ryken, Wilhoit, and Longman…the following is an excerpt from Amazon describing the book:
…Every reader of the Bible has encountered the powerful, comforting and sometimes puzzling imagery of Scripture. These concrete pictures with their hidden force have struck sharp and lasting impressions on our minds. Their imprint has etched itself on the language and grammar of Christian faith and Western culture. Why then do traditional Bible dictionaries and reference works offer so little help to explorers of the Bible's galaxy of verbal pictures? They excel in describing the climate, borders and location of Galilee or Sinai. But they are often blind to the artistic expressions and deaf to the musical meanings that echo from within the world of the biblical text.
The Dictionary of Biblical Imagery is the first contemporary reference work dedicated to exploring the images, symbols, motifs, metaphors and literary patterns found in the Bible. More than that, it examines the Bible's universal archetypes or master images--including the plot motifs and character types that recur throughout life, literature, and the Bible. This unique dictionary explores the dazzling variety in which the Word of God comes dressed in clothes of everyday life…
I think it could be very helpful to one’s personal study and could make one a more effective communicator of the correct message of the Bible.
On 2/28/2023 at 4:32 PM, Mike said:
I was thinking of interventions between the spiritual realm into the physical realm as being possible for BOTH God and the devil. That is what the "double" refers to: both God and the devil are limited by them being shut. But when God opens them, both of them suddenly have access.
while I’ve got you on the phone - - - I wanted to point out a certain incoherency.
1.Both God and the devil are limited by bar room double doors being shut.
2.But when God opens them, both of them suddenly have access.
If # 1 - both God and the devil are limited by bar room double doors being shut, then # 2contradicts # 1.
How could God open the bar room double doors if He is also limited by them?
statements 1 & 2 cannot BOTH be true.
maybe this was addressed earlier on this thread - pardon my repetition - I slept since then
On 2/28/2023 at 4:32 PM, Mike said:
If what I am talking is an abundantly clear pattern in the scriptures, then it can rise above the charge of private interpretation.
it's not even remotely a pattern...there is no pattern! You are imagining things...that's okay - but maybe check out the Dict. of Biblical Imagery I recommended - it might clarify patterns in the Bible that you have ignored.
On 2/28/2023 at 4:32 PM, Mike said:
If not then I have to drop it and not teach it.
it doesn't appear to be - you're continuing to theorize / preach / teach it anyway
On 2/28/2023 at 4:32 PM, Mike said:
I will be producing the scriptures that convinced me enough to at least bring it up here in the "Doctrinal Dungeon" as opposed to teaching it in a twig. I have never taught this all these years. I have brought it up to about 3 or 4 people I thought could handle it, and they encouraged me to look into it deeper.
I'm thinking if you had brought it up and be honest in a discussion that uses the Socratic method, we all could have helped to rid the idea of inconsistencies.
As a side note you might want to check out a thread in doctrinal - here's my starter post for Concerning the Bible - confessions of a former fundamentalist > my starter post Nov 1st 2017 3:36 PM ...Many of my beliefs have changed since I came to Grease Spot Cafe 17 years ago - and some are still in a state of flux. Why? I love the Socratic method and talking with others who don't believe the way I do. True communication between people is reciprocal - both parties may experience some shift in their viewpoints.
That is what the "double" refers to: both God and the devil are limited by them being shut. But when God opens them, both of them suddenly have access.
Actually, this is a quote, made by Mike, in T-Bone's post.
Taking into consideration the above quote by Mike:
In a previous post you said that it appeared the devil was winning. If both suddenly have access, then wouldn't there be an much good as evil?
God's willingness equals God's ability, remember? Then the converse must also be true. God's ability equals God's willingness. In other words, if God is able to open the door and do good works, he is willing to.
Naming "things" is a part of general human communication using words and language: it is an aspect of everyday taxonomy as people distinguish the objects of their experience, together with their similarities and differences, which observers identify, name and classify.
“Some folks call it a sling blade, I call it a Kaiser blade.” — Karl Childers
In the early 1970s I put much effort into my own study of who Jesus is, and who the Bible says he is, and what Jesus said himself OF HIMSELF. At times this study could be called feverish or emotionally driven.My Catholic background and family were a strong trinity tug in my pre-Bible mind, so I was literally afraid of getting it wrong, who Jesus was.
This was all a few years before JCNG came out in 1976.
Because I had made this topic “my own” at such an early date, when the 1986 meltdown of TWI happened, I watched grad after grad succumb to trinity pressures that I had wrestled with years before.Most grads barely read that book with retention, and hardly anyone did their own systematic scouring of their KJV on the topic like I had.
One of the things I noticed about this, is that grads who had NOT made the idea that Jesus was not God very deeply seated in their minds, still often held on to a god-like image of him that tradition teaches.
Grads who could only mouth the phrases of JCNG, often still had Jesus being God in the deep internal images of their minds.
I was deeply impressed by 1 Tim 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”
I see one infinite character and one finite character in that verse.
God is a character? Well, if any aspect of ancient religious mythos is deeply rooted in tradition, it is this one.
I should say if any modern religious system is deeply rooted in the traditions of ancient mythos, it is that God is a character, as in a play. (Also, as in an interpretive dance theatrical performance.)
In the early 1970s I put much effort into my own study of who Jesus is, and who the Bible says he is, and what Jesus said himself OF HIMSELF. At times this study could be called feverish or emotionally driven.My Catholic background and family were a strong trinity tug in my pre-Bible mind, so I was literally afraid of getting it wrong, who Jesus was.
This was all a few years before JCNG came out in 1976.
Because I had made this topic “my own” at such an early date, when the 1986 meltdown of TWI happened, I watched grad after grad succumb to trinity pressures that I had wrestled with years before.Most grads barely read that book with retention, and hardly anyone did their own systematic scouring of their KJV on the topic like I had.
One of the things I noticed about this, is that grads who had NOT made the idea that Jesus was not God very deeply seated in their minds, still often held on to a god-like image of him that tradition teaches.
Grads who could only mouth the phrases of JCNG, often still had Jesus being God in the deep internal images of their minds.
I was deeply impressed by 1 Tim 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”
I see one infinite character and one finite character in that verse.
Mike, a few questions:
What does watching a grad succumb to trinity pressures look like?
And what were those pressures that you wrestled with?
How did you notice grads who had NOT made the idea that Jesus was not God in their minds?
How did you know they held on to a god-like image of him that tradition teaches?
If they mouthed the phrases of JCNG – how did you know they still held Jesus being God in the deep internal images of their minds?
What does this Trinity stuff and disparaging grads who still believe in divinity of Christ have to do with God’s budget, double doors and scarcity of miracles?
Mike, do you just drop these nonsensical ideas out to stir up the waters?
What exactly do you mean by "these nonsensical ideas" ?
Do you mean the immediate context of Jesus being a man, even after the Ascension, according to 1 Timothy?
Do you mean the budget thingy? (that is a little non-sensical)
Do you mean the collaterals are a God-send to us?
*/*/*
I find some people's words that describe a relationship with Jesus that goes way beyond the church epistles as non-sensical.
It all depends what you find "normative."
I found that the one-time phrase of the "absent Christ" gave me ZERO impediments to my spiritual growth in the church epistles. It is from the church epistles we learn of Jesus' ministry Part B, seated at the right hand of God.
The absent Christ gave me clarity on what Paul was talking about regarding us looking forward to Christ's return and the end of that absence.
When I talk of a finite man being my mediator, that is done with the most profound respect and care for accuracy. I am glad he is still a man, one of us.
*/*/*
I was actually viewing my statements as calming the attempted stirring of waters that many posters do here non-stop.
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chockfull
I believe that the real deal is possible and the path toward it is to address and correct all the doctrinal and practical error introduced by VPs box top doctorate research. isolation from other
chockfull
The Corps is a necessary cult element providing free labor at the expense of volunteers lives. Any imagery like the Marines promotes extremist behavior. No other Christian seminary or school use
Nathan_Jr
"Teaching" Romans to the Corps, Q&A: LCM: How much does your behavior that people do not see influence your example to them? VPW: It doesn't, unless you believe it will. LCM: You u
Posted Images
T-Bone
modern day usage of the world “cult” can cover a broad range of adoring fans – from benign, quirky, innocent like that movie or band has a cult following - - to harmful and controlling cults like The Way International or Scientology. After 20 years of his coming to Grease Spot Café I think it’s really creepy that Mike would insinuate the Lord Jesus Christ used harmful and controlling cult tactics. I’ll give him the benefit of a doubt that after 20 years of coming here, Mike may lack the situational awareness of Grease Spot Café’s purpose to expose the harmful and controlling cult tactics of The Way International.
I find it deeply disturbing he indicates he cannot tell the difference between the benevolent, honest, compassionate words and works of the Lord Jesus Christ and the destructive, deceitful, exploitative words and works of wierwille / The Way International.
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T-Bone
Learn = acquire, retain and recall new information.
Theorize = to think of or suggest about what is possibly true or real.
Mike states all we have are the Scriptures as a guide – but he wanders off into theory-ville.
Where does it PLAINLY SAY in the account that “God's angels were hindered, and it was a tight struggle”? Mike’s statement is not using Scriptures as a guide. They’re more like a launchpad for improvisation.
I’ve noticed Mike’s commentary on accounts of divine beings in action, he usually seems to favor the bad guys. Odd…really odd... Reminds me of wierwille’s demonology – always fascinated with the dark side – as if to scare followers into trusting his twisted and perverted slant on the Bible will protect them from the boogie man.
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Nathan_Jr
It doesn’t. That’s what the margins are for.
The pen is a double-edged sword. Use it to delete AND add words. Use your tools. Imitate victor in all things.
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waysider
Yes and no. If it's a really old boogie man, you might need the King James Version because of all the thee and thou references. Newer boogie men might be better addressed using The New Revised Version. If they're friendly boogie men, you might do well with The Good News Bible.
edit. Oops! I almost forgot The Children's Bible. That one should handle those "under the bed" variety boogie men.
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So_crates
Which would be a tragic error.
When we stand before the bema, as the rabbi says, we aren't going to be asked, why weren't you Saint Vic? However, we could be asked why weren't you [your name]?
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Nathan_Jr
Indeed. A fundamental error. A cosmic error.
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Nathan_Jr
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T-Bone
True dat!
True story:
After I took PFAL in ‘74 I bought a wide margin Bible that had the wide margins in the middle - 2 columns in the middle and passages on either side - sounds like something out of 4 crucified “on either side one” ; smart design cuz you’re not writing close to the edge (for suicidal writers.
) or close to the book binding (for those into bondage. 
… note same emoji used cuz effects of cult Kool-Aid the same).
I loved this hardbound Bible so much I had a leather cover made with a big fold over flap - put a round TWI logo sticker on the flap.
I put a lot of work into that Bible. It was KJV of course but did not have missing words italicized. So I went through entire Bible and underlined the words that were italicized using the small KJV Bible given to me by my girlfriend who got me in the class.
Used different colored pens and a straight edge to write notes from all of wierwille’s books, my own studies and it even had some corps notes too.
When we left TWI / our assignment location we had a garage sale - I scribbled out my name in the front and sold it for like $5 . I took the leather cover off that bad boy and put it on my hardbound Dakes Annotated Bible - they’re about the same size. I bought Dakes after using one in Rome City corps library - also noticed it might be something wierwille used in some teachings - like when he taught 15 things about blah blah - if you’ve ever used or seen a Dakes you’ll know what I’m talking about…oh yeah took the round TWI sticker off the flap. Still have Dakes - use it sometimes…the research that interprets itself and all that jazz.
Regrets?
Yes - I worry the lady that bought it started her own cult - and didn’t give me any credit for all the plagiarized material I put into it. I should have left my name on it…
To T-Bone be the the glory
great things he hath done
he so loved his cult
but now it’s not fun
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Nathan_Jr
Mmmph
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OldSkool
Oh my Lord. I had one of those and a custom pen set that was multi-colored so I could underline in color. It was highlighted, underlined, and notated so badly that it was dang near useless by the time I was done with it. It landed in a trash can along with all my class syllabus back in 2008. Never misssed any of it for a second even.
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chockfull
Yes the Oxford double wide was my Bible. Plenty of room for notes. Unlike some I did not highlight the verses for each PFAL class in a different color. I did have extensive notes from various sources, and of course all the holy spirit markings and Bullingers “also”s marked as part of Corps requirements.
I think that is in a box in my garage still haven’t dumped it. But I read a shelf of various other Bible versions in its place and software lists them in views for the same verse.
Regrets? Yeah all the hamster wheel time put in underlining, marking, etc so that our “Gods Word” would exactly align with VPWs Bible interpretations. Then that large monstrosity became my “only rule for faith and practice” like a good wayfer, then the hamster could “run Forrest run” in the obedient simplistic path to “run more Plaffy classes”.
I regret it all and it’s all interwoven like a tapestry of Dante’s Inferno.
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T-Bone
Nomenclature = Nomenclature is a system of names or terms, or the rules for forming these terms in a particular field of arts or sciences. The principles of naming vary from the relatively informal conventions of everyday speech to the internationally agreed principles, rules and recommendations that govern the formation and use of the specialist terminology used in scientific and any other disciplines.
Naming "things" is a part of general human communication using words and language: it is an aspect of everyday taxonomy as people distinguish the objects of their experience, together with their similarities and differences, which observers identify, name and classify. The use of names, as the many different kinds of nouns embedded in different languages, connects nomenclature to theoretical linguistics, while the way humans mentally structure the world in relation to word meanings and experience relates to the philosophy of language.
I am not trying to be super critical or pedantic…so how about some constructive criticism for developing your communication skills. As the definition says, naming things is a part of general human communication. One thing that bothers me in a discussion is when someone tries to redefine a word or create their own acronyms . Sorry to say this but you do that quite a bit.
A tangent of that is you sometimes attempt to squeeze a modern definition, imagery or concept into an ancient text. This thread for example. I get the idea of a set of bar room doors – same idea as restaurant double doors from dining area to kitchen – facilitates staff / servers to go in / out quickly and easily. I don’t see it in Scripture and thus far you have failed to show the idea in Scripture.
Bar room double doors may be in YOUR nomenclature, but they do not appear in Scripture. If I could make a suggestion of a book that has helped me – more than any other book - to cultivate, discipline and anchor my mind to biblical ideas it’s Dictionary of Biblical Imagery by Ryken, Wilhoit, and Longman …the following is an excerpt from Amazon describing the book:
…Every reader of the Bible has encountered the powerful, comforting and sometimes puzzling imagery of Scripture. These concrete pictures with their hidden force have struck sharp and lasting impressions on our minds. Their imprint has etched itself on the language and grammar of Christian faith and Western culture. Why then do traditional Bible dictionaries and reference works offer so little help to explorers of the Bible's galaxy of verbal pictures? They excel in describing the climate, borders and location of Galilee or Sinai. But they are often blind to the artistic expressions and deaf to the musical meanings that echo from within the world of the biblical text.
The Dictionary of Biblical Imagery is the first contemporary reference work dedicated to exploring the images, symbols, motifs, metaphors and literary patterns found in the Bible. More than that, it examines the Bible's universal archetypes or master images--including the plot motifs and character types that recur throughout life, literature, and the Bible. This unique dictionary explores the dazzling variety in which the Word of God comes dressed in clothes of everyday life…
I think it could be very helpful to one’s personal study and could make one a more effective communicator of the correct message of the Bible.
while I’ve got you on the phone - - - I wanted to point out a certain incoherency.
1.Both God and the devil are limited by bar room double doors being shut.
2.But when God opens them, both of them suddenly have access.
If # 1 - both God and the devil are limited by bar room double doors being shut, then # 2 contradicts # 1.
How could God open the bar room double doors if He is also limited by them?
statements 1 & 2 cannot BOTH be true.
maybe this was addressed earlier on this thread - pardon my repetition - I slept since then
it's not even remotely a pattern...there is no pattern! You are imagining things...that's okay - but maybe check out the Dict. of Biblical Imagery I recommended - it might clarify patterns in the Bible that you have ignored.
it doesn't appear to be - you're continuing to theorize / preach / teach it anyway
I'm thinking if you had brought it up and be honest in a discussion that uses the Socratic method, we all could have helped to rid the idea of inconsistencies.
As a side note you might want to check out a thread in doctrinal - here's my starter post for Concerning the Bible - confessions of a former fundamentalist > my starter post Nov 1st 2017 3:36 PM ...Many of my beliefs have changed since I came to Grease Spot Cafe 17 years ago - and some are still in a state of flux. Why? I love the Socratic method and talking with others who don't believe the way I do. True communication between people is reciprocal - both parties may experience some shift in their viewpoints.
Love and peace
T-Bone
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So_crates
Actually, this is a quote, made by Mike, in T-Bone's post.
Taking into consideration the above quote by Mike:
In a previous post you said that it appeared the devil was winning. If both suddenly have access, then wouldn't there be an much good as evil?
God's willingness equals God's ability, remember? Then the converse must also be true. God's ability equals God's willingness. In other words, if God is able to open the door and do good works, he is willing to.
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Nathan_Jr
“Some folks call it a sling blade, I call it a Kaiser blade.” — Karl Childers
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Mike
In the early 1970s I put much effort into my own study of who Jesus is, and who the Bible says he is, and what Jesus said himself OF HIMSELF. At times this study could be called feverish or emotionally driven. My Catholic background and family were a strong trinity tug in my pre-Bible mind, so I was literally afraid of getting it wrong, who Jesus was.
This was all a few years before JCNG came out in 1976.
Because I had made this topic “my own” at such an early date, when the 1986 meltdown of TWI happened, I watched grad after grad succumb to trinity pressures that I had wrestled with years before. Most grads barely read that book with retention, and hardly anyone did their own systematic scouring of their KJV on the topic like I had.
One of the things I noticed about this, is that grads who had NOT made the idea that Jesus was not God very deeply seated in their minds, still often held on to a god-like image of him that tradition teaches.
Grads who could only mouth the phrases of JCNG, often still had Jesus being God in the deep internal images of their minds.
I was deeply impressed by 1 Tim 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”
I see one infinite character and one finite character in that verse.
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waysider
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Nathan_Jr
God is a character? Well, if any aspect of ancient religious mythos is deeply rooted in tradition, it is this one.
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waysider
"Ah no! young blade! That was a trifle short!
You might have said at least a hundred things
By varying the tone."
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Nathan_Jr
Who will be your mediator in lieu of Christ Jesus’ finitude and absence?
Oh, never mind. I’ll just write my question on a post card and mail it to The…
…oh, wait…
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Nathan_Jr
I should say if any modern religious system is deeply rooted in the traditions of ancient mythos, it is that God is a character, as in a play. (Also, as in an interpretive dance theatrical performance.)
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Charity
Mike, do you just drop these nonsensical ideas out to stir up the waters?
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T-Bone
Mike, a few questions:
What does watching a grad succumb to trinity pressures look like?
And what were those pressures that you wrestled with?
How did you notice grads who had NOT made the idea that Jesus was not God in their minds?
How did you know they held on to a god-like image of him that tradition teaches?
If they mouthed the phrases of JCNG – how did you know they still held Jesus being God in the deep internal images of their minds?
What does this Trinity stuff and disparaging grads who still believe in divinity of Christ have to do with God’s budget, double doors and scarcity of miracles?
Edited by T-Bonetypos
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Mike
What exactly do you mean by "these nonsensical ideas" ?
Do you mean the immediate context of Jesus being a man, even after the Ascension, according to 1 Timothy?
Do you mean the budget thingy? (that is a little non-sensical)
Do you mean the collaterals are a God-send to us?
*/*/*
I find some people's words that describe a relationship with Jesus that goes way beyond the church epistles as non-sensical.
It all depends what you find "normative."
I found that the one-time phrase of the "absent Christ" gave me ZERO impediments to my spiritual growth in the church epistles. It is from the church epistles we learn of Jesus' ministry Part B, seated at the right hand of God.
The absent Christ gave me clarity on what Paul was talking about regarding us looking forward to Christ's return and the end of that absence.
When I talk of a finite man being my mediator, that is done with the most profound respect and care for accuracy. I am glad he is still a man, one of us.
*/*/*
I was actually viewing my statements as calming the attempted stirring of waters that many posters do here non-stop.
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So_crates
Of course our job (It's one of those big jobs assigned by God you're always talking about) is to stir the waters.
If we didn't the truth about Saint Vic's phoniness and sins would soon be forgotten.
Isn't that why you're bothered by our constant stirring?
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