I was actually viewing my statements as calming the attempted stirring of waters that many posters do here non-stop.
Did you mean to say YOUR INTENTION was to calm the discussion down somewhat? Your intention appears not to have translated into a message which could accomplish such an objective.
Do you REALLY think how you were actually viewing your statements matters at all to anyone? Not just here, but anywhere?
Let me see, I'll try it for you, see if this makes any sense to you,
Quote
I intended to dial down the temperature of the discussion because you bozos rarely, if ever, read the message I intended to convey.
Honestly Mike, WTF? More than two decades of doing the same thing and you expect different results?
This little theory or hunch I am airing out here is still in the making. I am not insisting that this double door and tight budget thing is true.It just seems to help me think sometimes, and it has been persistent over decades in popping up in my mind.
cool - I think what you admit here is honest...
HOWEVER - rather than insisting the ideas are hidden somewhere in Scripture is NOT cool - it's not being honest with the Word of God.
For something to keep popping up in your head might just mean you need to look elsewhere than the Bible.
Philosophy of religion is the philosophical examination of the central themes and concepts involved in religious traditions...it's not biblical theology...you get to examine and evaluate other religions. Philosophical discussions on such topics date from ancient times, and appear in the earliest known texts concerning philosophy. The field is related to many other branches of philosophy, including metaphysics, epistemology, and ethics.
Last few years I've gotten more into and enjoy reading and learning stuff from Taoism, Confucianism - will check out Zoroastrianism soon. ..The Case for God by Karen Armstrong is another good book - there is often commonality in all religions when they try to address the big questions of life.
The non-counterfeitability of SIT was something I studied long and hard in the decades before GreaseSpot, but then I put my notes down, and I never got into it here, so I am very rusty on it. But it is an important subject.
I have a folders (paper and digital) on this topic also going back to the 70s. In the digital is an .mp4 of an old 1990s VHS of Andy Kaufman playing bongos and singing in tongues or faking it.
Hard to tell which is which.
silly example Mike
you just cheapen this whole topic and appear you don’t know what you’re talking about.
On 3/3/2023 at 2:52 PM, Mike said:
How do you know your HS gibberish was not genuine tongues?
Because I know by comparing what having real spiritual gifts feels like. I have confidence in what I offer in service to others that I don’t need wierwille’s counterfeit validation or someone’s silly analytics to blow smoke up my a$$ to make me feel good about myself.
On 3/3/2023 at 2:52 PM, Mike said:
BTW, my theater friends told me they call it gibberish in their circles.
is one of your theater friends named Kermit?
its time to put on makeup
it’s time to light the lights
god I love that show!
On 3/3/2023 at 2:52 PM, Mike said:
They also will do low volume "raspberries and strawberries" mantras to simulate a crowd of people talking randomly amongst themselves.
I have thought people like Andy Kaufman (my hero, along with Firesign) might be born again and his bongo SIT was real.
I noticed someone here posted a different Andy Kaufman doing non-singing gibberish, again maybe SIT.
here’s the thing. I believe if someone has a gift they know it. In the natural realm , if someone has a gift for investing, painting, building repairing - whatever- they know it! Schooling and experiences may help hone their skills but the gift to almost effortlessly do whatever they do at any stage in their career I would think comes naturally.
On 3/3/2023 at 2:52 PM, Mike said:
I also studied complex rhythms in dance were similar to complex rhythms of rap artist friends of mine when I was doing Open Mics.
that does not make you a lingusitic expert
On 3/3/2023 at 2:52 PM, Mike said:
In your HS gibberish did you ever go for VERY LONG periods of time, like 10 or 20 minutes to see if there were repeating patterns? Did you even know to do such an experiment?
i could do my schtick all different ways - and had a few pat phrases - doesn't mean anything or prove anything. all that was done by me deliberately thinking and articulating what phony foreign language words to say
On 3/3/2023 at 2:52 PM, Mike said:
I am very rusty on this, but re-awakening circuits as I type. If I ever have time we ought to get into this, and I'll break out my folders.
Meanwhile, I have explored the repetitiveness of gibberish with my friends to see if it resembled the repetitiveness we see in many PFAL grads.
repetitiveness means NOTHING unless it's actual words using a real language. you don't understand what is being said. I had a lab/springer spaniel who would get excited when we played with her and she'd start making weird noises like she was trying to roll her "R"s. sounded funny. was it a language ? don't know I only speak poor English.
you need to take a long hard look at the instances of SIT in Acts. Certain Witnesses understood the language. That’s what authenticated it!
wierwille and sycophants use tongues of angels as a gimmick to hide behind the fact their tongues produced in mass quantities all over PFAL-ville are languages…what is the language of angels? Get some linguistic experts on it - languages of any race , species or beings will follow the norms of what makes a language.
can’t believe I bought into wierwille’s fakery for 12 years!
On 3/3/2023 at 2:52 PM, Mike said:
But grad repetitiveness is what I looked at most, and helped others overcome the most. Being able to SIT for 10 or 20 minutes out loud with no noticeable repetition patterns is a big deal.
how so? I could do my schtick for a loooooooooo zzzZZZzzzz zzzZZZZzz ng time.
On 3/3/2023 at 2:52 PM, Mike said:
I have often thought that part of the non-counterfeitability of SIT was due to the ZERO motivation counterfeiters have to get fluent with it.
oh there is lot's of motivation to fake it. new students don't want to look like they failed. You don't want to be the only one in the class who DOESN'T manifest...you're kidding yourself if you think there was no pressure on new students to speak in tongues...class coordinators got called on the carpet if they report a new grad didn't manifest.
and while we're on the subject of manifestations - I challenge you to study I Corinthians 12, 13, & 14 in the Greek text and in alternate translations...wierwille steered us wrong ! the Holy Spirit does the distributing of gifts - not some VHS or Betamax tape from TWI...and you don't need a class to be taught how to serve with a gift energized by the Holy Spirit - - it's NOT dependent on you and wierwille coaching you to use your dinky holy car battery.
The Holy Spirit is a person! Not an inanimate car battery! In our language we capitalize proper names -Holy Spirit - so it's not holy spirit...and here I play by T-Bone's house rules so it's wierwille and NOTWierwille because there's nothing proper about a pathological liar, drunkard, lying-thieving-weasel, plagiarizing, megalomaniac, abusive, egotistical, exploitative, malignant narcissist, sexual predator, cult-leader...if I left anything out - let me know...
...so with all of your great analytical skills examining spiritual things - taking note of repetitiveness, intensity and modulation - how come you've never noticed that wierwille was a repeat offender, an unrepentant sinner, a career criminal with many talents, distortions and transforming himself into a man-of-God?
On 3/3/2023 at 2:52 PM, Mike said:
I have noticed with repetitive grads, that if you listen REAL close, there are all sorts of modulations of volume and rhythm that seems to augment the vocalization envelopes. So if the vocalization envelopes for these grads carries less information due to repetition, but the volume and rhythm modulation carries lots of info, then the repetition that is most noticeable ain't so bad.
Maybe you're hearing things...I've noticed you miss a lot of details - not reading long posts by others - taking forever to read Undertow...seems like you have the attention span of a cat - and that makes you a linguistic expert?
On 3/3/2023 at 2:52 PM, Mike said:
Anyway, that’s all the time I have for SIT right now.I am swamped with a large backlog of posts I want to respond to next, and some posts I haven’t even read yet.
I’m home sick today so I may get to some of that backlog today.
get well soon
On 3/3/2023 at 2:52 PM, Mike said:
PLUS, I want to post my Double Doors scriptures. There are not that many. I culled out the most clear ones to keep things more simple.
Of course our job (It's one of those big jobs assigned by God you're always talking about) is to stir the waters.
If we didn't the truth about Saint Vic's phoniness and sins would soon be forgotten.
Isn't that why you're bothered by our constant stirring?
You're right - stirring the waters can go both ways. I was referring to Mike's phrase "finite character" regarding Jesus Chris as his way of instigating a discussion that imho is undeserving of one. Mind you, I've been known to be wrong about things.
you just cheapen this whole topic and appear you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Because I know by comparing what having real spiritual gifts feels like. I have confidence in what I offer in service to others that I don’t need wierwille’s counterfeit validation or someone’s silly analytics to blow smoke up my a$$ to make me feel good about myself.
is one of your theater friends named Kermit?
its time to put on makeup
it’s time to light the lights
god I love that show!
here’s the thing. I believe if someone has a gift they know it. In the natural realm , if someone has a gift for investing, painting, building repairing - whatever- they know it! Schooling and experiences may help hone their skills but the gift to almost effortlessly do whatever they do at any stage in their career I would think comes naturally.
that does not make you a lingusitic expert
i could do my schtick all different ways - and had a few pat phrases - doesn't mean anything or prove anything. all that was done by me deliberately thinking and articulating what phony foreign language words to say
repetitiveness means NOTHING unless it's actual words using a real language. you don't understand what is being said. I had a lab/springer spaniel who would get excited when we played with her and she'd start making weird noises like she was trying to roll her "R"s. sounded funny. was it a language ? don't know I only speak poor English.
you need to take a long hard look at the instances of SIT in Acts. Certain Witnesses understood the language. That’s what authenticated it!
wierwille and sycophants use tongues of angels as a gimmick to hide behind the fact their tongues produced in mass quantities all over PFAL-ville are languages…what is the language of angels? Get some linguistic experts on it - languages of any race , species or beings will follow the norms of what makes a language.
can’t believe I bought into wierwille’s fakery for 12 years!
how so? I could do my schtick for a loooooooooo zzzZZZzzzz zzzZZZZzz ng time.
oh there is lot's of motivation to fake it. new students don't want to look like they failed. You don't want to be the only one in the class who DOESN'T manifest...you're kidding yourself if you think there was no pressure on new students to speak in tongues...class coordinators got called on the carpet if they report a new grad didn't manifest.
and while we're on the subject of manifestations - I challenge you to study I Corinthians 12, 13, & 14 in the Greek text and in alternate translations...wierwille steered us wrong ! the Holy Spirit does the distributing of gifts - not some VHS or Betamax tape from TWI...and you don't need a class to be taught how to serve with a gift energized by the Holy Spirit - - it's NOT dependent on you and wierwille coaching you the use your dinky holy car battery.
The Holy Spirit is a person! Not an inanimate car battery! In our language we capitalize proper names -Holy Spirit - so it's not holy spirit...and here I play by T-Bone's house rules so it's wierwille and NOTWierwille because there's nothing proper about a pathological liar, drunkard, lying-thieving-weasel, plagiarizing, megalomaniac, abusive, egotistical, exploitative, malignant narcissist, sexual predator, cult-leader...if I left anything out - let me know...
...so with all of your great analytical skills examining spiritual things - taking note of repetitiveness, intensity and modulation - how come you've never noticed that wierwille was a repeat offender, an unrepentant sinner, a career criminal with many talents, distortions and transforming himself into a man-of-God?
Maybe you're hearing things...I've noticed you miss a lot of details - not reading long posts by others - taking forever to read Undertow...seems like you have the attention span of a cat - and that makes you a linguistic expert?
In the early 1970s I put much effort into my own study of who Jesus is, and who the Bible says he is, and what Jesus said himself OF HIMSELF. At times this study could be called feverish or emotionally driven.My Catholic background and family were a strong trinity tug in my pre-Bible mind, so I was literally afraid of getting it wrong, who Jesus was.
This was all a few years before JCNG came out in 1976.
Because I had made this topic “my own” at such an early date, when the 1986 meltdown of TWI happened, I watched grad after grad succumb to trinity pressures that I had wrestled with years before.Most grads barely read that book with retention, and hardly anyone did their own systematic scouring of their KJV on the topic like I had.
One of the things I noticed about this, is that grads who had NOT made the idea that Jesus was not God very deeply seated in their minds, still often held on to a god-like image of him that tradition teaches.
Grads who could only mouth the phrases of JCNG, often still had Jesus being God in the deep internal images of their minds.
I was deeply impressed by 1 Tim 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”
I see one infinite character and one finite character in that verse.
Another disingenuous pile of horse puckey. Somehow VP struggled with the topic before going off the self publication isolationist cliff.
Oh but Mikey was solid on all the concepts way before the book even came out. Then latched onto it with all of his minuscule ostrich head burying tactics. The only “systematic scouring” that ever happens there is censorship of material presented by the entire body of Christ.
Jesus Christ appeared to Thomas in his resurrected body. Jesus Christ exhorted Thomas to touch his side and to look at his hands with the nail prints from the cross. He confronted him and said “stop doubting but believe”.
When Thomas followed the instruction of the resurrected Christ he said “my Lord and God”.
Jesus didn’t correct him. If VP was right in his apostasy, then Jesus would have said “Thomas all glory goes to my Father, as I am just a resurrected man”.
You see God Himself has foreknowledge, and would have seen what a large divide that would be caused by Arianism in the future so would have protected His Word and Body of Christ by a simple clarification there.
But He didn’t. Why not? It was the perfect opportunity to correct a slight error in statement. Jesus corrected them on so many other aspects of scripture and concept that it would be ludicrous to assume he would let go such a major error here in his perfectly renewed mind and body.
What is the hucksters so called solution that I supposedly didn’t pay attention to or retain according to Mike? Oh it’s an “orientalist” that supposedly means “my godly lord”.
What in the literal f?
Orientalisms or eastern expressions do not substitute the infinite for the finite.
But what it does illustrate is VPs absolute dedication to the stupid “keys to the Words interpretation “ where he feels that the “difficult verses must be understood in light of the clear verses”.
Chapter and verse on that one? Not a chance it is something made up in the mind of Wierwille.
You can’t magnify 1 Tim 2:5 and throw away John 20:27,28.
Well obviously you can because that’s what VP did in the JCNG book.
To me that verse in John 20:28 indicates that if you don’t accept Jesus as “my Lord and God” like the paradigm example in the Bible did, then you are doubting and do not believe.
Understand the difficult verses for themselves, don’t dumb them down and force square pegs into round holes.
Or you are left with an idol. A dashboard bobblehead Jesus, and a bronze statue of Wierwille.
Emerson wrote “a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds”. That is what all of this artificial shoe horning or scripture is.
Apparent contradictions introduce a duality in concept, as opposed to a logical fallacy that has to be resolved. There is no need to resolve logical fallacies. Just accept the duality as it was given.
Then like all the rest of the body of Christ you have a common goal with so many other non cult followers in the world.
Also I think Mikes motivation to pick on this topic is to cause division amongst those seeking to eradicate the illogical Way Bible interpretations from their lives.
Regardless of what you believe regarding the deity of Christ, accepting him as Lord and Savior gets you born again and part of a large family and body of Christ.
Another disingenuous pile of horse puckey. Somehow VP struggled with the topic before going off the self publication isolationist cliff.
Oh but Mikey was solid on all the concepts way before the book even came out. Then latched onto it with all of his minuscule ostrich head burying tactics. The only “systematic scouring” that ever happens there is censorship of material presented by the entire body of Christ.
Jesus Christ appeared to Thomas in his resurrected body. Jesus Christ exhorted Thomas to touch his side and to look at his hands with the nail prints from the cross. He confronted him and said “stop doubting but believe”.
When Thomas followed the instruction of the resurrected Christ he said “my Lord and God”.
Jesus didn’t correct him. If VP was right in his apostasy, then Jesus would have said “Thomas all glory goes to my Father, as I am just a resurrected man”.
You see God Himself has foreknowledge, and would have seen what a large divide that would be caused by Arianism in the future so would have protected His Word and Body of Christ by a simple clarification there.
But He didn’t. Why not? It was the perfect opportunity to correct a slight error in statement. Jesus corrected them on so many other aspects of scripture and concept that it would be ludicrous to assume he would let go such a major error here in his perfectly renewed mind and body.
What is the hucksters so called solution that I supposedly didn’t pay attention to or retain according to Mike? Oh it’s an “orientalist” that supposedly means “my godly lord”.
What in the literal f?
Orientalisms or eastern expressions do not substitute the infinite for the finite.
But what it does illustrate is VPs absolute dedication to the stupid “keys to the Words interpretation “ where he feels that the “difficult verses must be understood in light of the clear verses”.
Chapter and verse on that one? Not a chance it is something made up in the mind of Wierwille.
You can’t magnify 1 Tim 2:5 and throw away John 20:27,28.
Well obviously you can because that’s what VP did in the JCNG book.
To me that verse in John 20:28 indicates that if you don’t accept Jesus as “my Lord and God” like the paradigm example in the Bible did, then you are doubting and do not believe.
Understand the difficult verses for themselves, don’t dumb them down and force square pegs into round holes.
Or you are left with an idol. A dashboard bobblehead Jesus, and a bronze statue of Wierwille.
Emerson wrote “a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds”. That is what all of this artificial shoe horning or scripture is.
Apparent contradictions introduce a duality in concept, as opposed to a logical fallacy that has to be resolved. There is no need to resolve logical fallacies. Just accept the duality as it was given.
Then like all the rest of the body of Christ you have a common goal with so many other non cult followers in the world.
Also I think Mikes motivation to pick on this topic is to cause division amongst those seeking to eradicate the illogical Way Bible interpretations from their lives.
Regardless of what you believe regarding the deity of Christ, accepting him as Lord and Savior gets you born again and part of a large family and body of Christ.
wow wee wow - this may be a Grease Spot first - a post that visually represents tongues with interpretation...except it seems to be mostly an unknown tongue.
Hey Mike, back up and try again - I realize you may have something important to say in all that.
(a comment from a moderator- I deleted the glitchy post at Mike’s request)
On 3/3/2023 at 12:20 PM, T-Bone said:
wierwille taught me how to fake speaking in tongues in PFAL - just like he relates how he did it in “The Way: Living in Love”.
*/*/*
You and I briefly discussed this idea of counterfeit tongues, and I said I had no more to offer, and was too busy to continue it. But then I remembered where a certain old post was located, so I am rekindling this little fire.
I am still working on a response to a few of So_crates posts, but I noticed this excerpt from an old post by Ralph D had several ties into this whole thread, as well as our mini discussion on SIT.
I slightly re-formatted Ralph’s post, and bold-fonted some selected excerpts, but you can find the entire original post here dated March 4th.
These excerpts were originally in a thread titled “How did the ordination of clergy thing work in TWI?”on page 4.
Look below for the genuineness of T.I.P.and also for a verification of what I said earlier in this thread about the way the Word moved in the early 1970s on Long Island, just across the bridge from Rye.
… i too experienced similar "niceties" from vic when he thought i had something in my life and background he could use......
my mother took the class, foundational, intermediate, after i left for the in-rez corps training, and was a "vocal" and active believer in the area i left behind for the corps "training".
..........however, my father, a professor of linguistics at ccny, and nyc high school foreign language department chairman and teacher, who was fluent in 13 different languages, was never "converted", despite vic's best efforts.
........my dad attended a sunday night fellowship at the rye presbyterian church once, in the fall of 1971, where steve heefner taught
.........as per twi "liturgy", there were "worship manifestations" at the beginning of that service, which included 2 "interpretation of tongues" which my father recognized as "known languages"
..........one, according to him, "portugese with a 'noticeable castillian spanish accent', and, the other a northern syriac dialect he recognized..
........his comment to me later that night when we got home............"neither of those people accurately translated what they spoke in those languages.........it was more of a 'rough paraphrase' (his words") in the english"
............of course, to me, this was a "miracle", and i recounted this for the believers to share with them how frustrating my father's "unbelief" was to me, despite this "miracle" god had performed for him!!
...........it was an incident which made the rounds among the fellowships back then........a great "witnessing tool" in spite of my father's refusal to "believe"!
my parents attended the roa '75, in lima,,,,,,,,,having spent the week previous visiting my wife and i at hq upon our return from our interim year of the corps............during that time, my mom cooked a sauerbraten which she prepared for us, in the kitchen of the wierwille home, and we ate the dinner she cooked, in the dining room of the "president's home" with vic, dotsie, uncle harry and naomi, my parents and my wife and i.........had a great time, 'cuz my mom was a german native, and we spent a couple of hours laughing and joking in german with the wierwille brothers and their wives.
......the next night, vic and dotsie took my parents and my wife and i out for dinner, at the wooden shoe in in minster, in order to "witness" to my father and "get him in the class"!
..........vic brought up the incident from the rye meeting i recounted above, which had occurred 4 years previously, as "proof" to my dad, that christ's resurrection and the "gift of holy spirit" were indeed true.
........and then he said to my dad, "i'm convinced you'd love the intellectual logic and mathematical exactness of what i teach in my class..........why not take it and see for yourself?"..........my father's reply......."until you can put holy spirit under a microscope for me, so that i can analyze it, i prefer to remain the agnostic that i am".
........LOL!...............my mouth must've dropped to the floor as i gasped out that good wooden shoe inn chicken when i heard that resaponse!!!
........i was expecting the worst, but vic just chuckled, and ordered another pitcher of beer for our table, and said, "well sir, that's just something i am not able to do"...........
during the rock, just several days later, vic called me backstage, where gary curtis was with him, and asked if i would introduce gary, who was the "head" of the twi translations department, to my father, because vic and gary wanted to ask my dad to translate the pfal book and class into french, which was my father's favorite of the 13 languages he was fluent in.
.......so, i took gary over to meet my dad, and they talked for about 25 minutes, with the discussion ending with my father "respectfully declining" to participate until that microscope of his had holy spirit under its lenses!
.............i still have that microscope of his!!............point being, that, all those nice, friendly things vic did for me, and my parents, were simply designed to get my dad to do the first french translation of vic's class!!
........pure and simple.............at the time, i was so disappointed that the mog himself could not win my dad for his "ministry", but today, looking back, i just laugh to myself, and whisper a little "way to go pops!" in loving memory and respect for my father's "unbelief"!
as i've stated previously on this thread, it was'nt vic who "fooled me" into the new birth.........it was my hippie, musician friends who first "witnessed" to me.......and dragged me to my first fellowships, where i met steve heefner and others in the early days of the way east "revival".
........as socks posted above, "I would like to say ditto to many of the things that have been said of Jim and Steve. I met them both way long ago, in 1968 and am glad I did.
There were a few years there when the amazing and the unusual were the pattern of the day. It'sbecause of those things I came to know beyond any doubt that Jesus Christ is living today and that God is my Father."...........amen, bro!
..........the miracles, signs, and wonders which "followed" all those friends of mine, and which were present in palpable abundance during that way east revival, throughout the many fellowhips sprouting up all over ny...........that was what "fooled" me into the outstretched arms of the risen christ!
.............vic's conspicuous "absence" from those early fellowhips had a lot more to do with that revival than did his later "conspicuous presence", imho!!
.............that "conspicuous presence" is what choked the true life out of that revival, as it did to the one in the way west, and the one in the old "northern ohio branch" mentioned in several posts on this thread!............it was wanting to see that kind of genuine, christian revival repeated again and again around the globe, which hooked me!.......and vic, ever the master manipulator and showman that he was, deftly transferred that desire to see the "resurrection power of christianity" with it's attendant miracles, signs and wonders, to his "ministry", in the stead of the ministry of jesus christ............that's where i got "fooled", and yes, that cult deception was indeed "poignant" for me, and thousands of others who experienced it!.................fool me once, shame on you.......fool me twice, shame on me!
Edited June 7, 2008 by Don'tWorryBeHappy
*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/
I was there too. Things really happened big on Long Island in the 1970’s, before the Corps over-organization (dare I call it Wierwille’s Folly) ruined it.I was forever hooked, just like Ralph, on ever wanting to see that kind of Church on fire happen again.It absolutely can!
On 3/3/2023 at 12:20 PM, T-Bone said:
wierwille taught me how to fake speaking in tongues in PFAL - just like he relates how he did it in “The Way: Living in Love”.
*/*/*
You and I briefly discussed this idea of counterfeit tongues, and I said I had no more to offer, and was too busy to continue it. But then I remembered where a certain old post was located, so I am rekindling this little fire.
I am still working on a response to a few of So_crates posts, but I noticed this excerpt from an old post by Ralph D had several ties into this whole thread, as well as our mini discussion on SIT.
I slightly re-formatted Ralph’s post, and bold-fonted some selected excerpts, but you can find the entire original post here dated March 4th.
These excerpts were originally in a thread titled “How did the ordination of clergy thing work in TWI?”on page 4.
Look below for the genuineness of T.I.P.and also for a verification of what I said earlier in this thread about the way the Word moved in the early 1970s on Long Island, just across the bridge from Rye.
… i too experienced similar "niceties" from vic when he thought i had something in my life and background he could use......
my mother took the class, foundational, intermediate, after i left for the in-rez corps training, and was a "vocal" and active believer in the area i left behind for the corps "training".
..........however, my father, a professor of linguistics at ccny, and nyc high school foreign language department chairman and teacher, who was fluent in 13 different languages, was never "converted", despite vic's best efforts.
........my dad attended a sunday night fellowship at the rye presbyterian church once, in the fall of 1971, where steve heefner taught
.........as per twi "liturgy", there were "worship manifestations" at the beginning of that service, which included 2 "interpretation of tongues" which my father recognized as "known languages"
..........one, according to him, "portugese with a 'noticeable castillian spanish accent', and, the other a northern syriac dialect he recognized..
........his comment to me later that night when we got home............"neither of those people accurately translated what they spoke in those languages.........it was more of a 'rough paraphrase' (his words") in the english"
............of course, to me, this was a "miracle", and i recounted this for the believers to share with them how frustrating my father's "unbelief" was to me, despite this "miracle" god had performed for him!!
...........it was an incident which made the rounds among the fellowships back then........a great "witnessing tool" in spite of my father's refusal to "believe"!
my parents attended the roa '75, in lima,,,,,,,,,having spent the week previous visiting my wife and i at hq upon our return from our interim year of the corps............during that time, my mom cooked a sauerbraten which she prepared for us, in the kitchen of the wierwille home, and we ate the dinner she cooked, in the dining room of the "president's home" with vic, dotsie, uncle harry and naomi, my parents and my wife and i.........had a great time, 'cuz my mom was a german native, and we spent a couple of hours laughing and joking in german with the wierwille brothers and their wives.
......the next night, vic and dotsie took my parents and my wife and i out for dinner, at the wooden shoe in in minster, in order to "witness" to my father and "get him in the class"!
..........vic brought up the incident from the rye meeting i recounted above, which had occurred 4 years previously, as "proof" to my dad, that christ's resurrection and the "gift of holy spirit" were indeed true.
........and then he said to my dad, "i'm convinced you'd love the intellectual logic and mathematical exactness of what i teach in my class..........why not take it and see for yourself?"..........my father's reply......."until you can put holy spirit under a microscope for me, so that i can analyze it, i prefer to remain the agnostic that i am".
........LOL!...............my mouth must've dropped to the floor as i gasped out that good wooden shoe inn chicken when i heard that resaponse!!!
........i was expecting the worst, but vic just chuckled, and ordered another pitcher of beer for our table, and said, "well sir, that's just something i am not able to do"...........
during the rock, just several days later, vic called me backstage, where gary curtis was with him, and asked if i would introduce gary, who was the "head" of the twi translations department, to my father, because vic and gary wanted to ask my dad to translate the pfal book and class into french, which was my father's favorite of the 13 languages he was fluent in.
.......so, i took gary over to meet my dad, and they talked for about 25 minutes, with the discussion ending with my father "respectfully declining" to participate until that microscope of his had holy spirit under its lenses!
.............i still have that microscope of his!!............point being, that, all those nice, friendly things vic did for me, and my parents, were simply designed to get my dad to do the first french translation of vic's class!!
........pure and simple.............at the time, i was so disappointed that the mog himself could not win my dad for his "ministry", but today, looking back, i just laugh to myself, and whisper a little "way to go pops!" in loving memory and respect for my father's "unbelief"!
as i've stated previously on this thread, it was'nt vic who "fooled me" into the new birth.........it was my hippie, musician friends who first "witnessed" to me.......and dragged me to my first fellowships, where i met steve heefner and others in the early days of the way east "revival".
........as socks posted above, "I would like to say ditto to many of the things that have been said of Jim and Steve. I met them both way long ago, in 1968 and am glad I did.
There were a few years there when the amazing and the unusual were the pattern of the day. It'sbecause of those things I came to know beyond any doubt that Jesus Christ is living today and that God is my Father."...........amen, bro!
..........the miracles, signs, and wonders which "followed" all those friends of mine, and which were present in palpable abundance during that way east revival, throughout the many fellowhips sprouting up all over ny...........that was what "fooled" me into the outstretched arms of the risen christ!
.............vic's conspicuous "absence" from those early fellowhips had a lot more to do with that revival than did his later "conspicuous presence", imho!!
.............that "conspicuous presence" is what choked the true life out of that revival, as it did to the one in the way west, and the one in the old "northern ohio branch" mentioned in several posts on this thread!............it was wanting to see that kind of genuine, christian revival repeated again and again around the globe, which hooked me!.......and vic, ever the master manipulator and showman that he was, deftly transferred that desire to see the "resurrection power of christianity" with it's attendant miracles, signs and wonders, to his "ministry", in the stead of the ministry of jesus christ............that's where i got "fooled", and yes, that cult deception was indeed "poignant" for me, and thousands of others who experienced it!.................fool me once, shame on you.......fool me twice, shame on me!
Edited June 7, 2008 by Don'tWorryBeHappy
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I was there too. Things really happened big on Long Island in the 1970’s, before the Corps over-organization (dare I call it Wierwille’s Folly) ruined it.I was forever hooked, just like Ralph, on ever wanting to see that kind of Church on fire happen again.It absolutely can!
Edited March 4 by Mike
A friend of a friend of mine's cousin's wife once saw a space alien. I, too, was a bit skeptical until I found out that her nephew had been a janitor at NASA and confirmed her description closely matched an alien he had seen in a Sci-Fi thriller in the 1950s. Life sure is strange.
(Be right back. I have to go drop some coins in that parking meter I found using the law of believing.)
edit: She no longer posts here, but you can take my word on this.
..........however, my father, a professor of linguistics at ccny, and nyc high school foreign language department chairman and teacher, who was fluent in 13 different languages, was never "converted", despite vic's best efforts.
........my dad attended a sunday night fellowship at the rye presbyterian church once, in the fall of 1971, where steve heefner taught
.........as per twi "liturgy", there were "worship manifestations" at the beginning of that service, which included 2 "interpretation of tongues" which my father recognized as "known languages"
..........one, according to him, "portugese with a 'noticeable castillian spanish accent', and, the other a northern syriac dialect he recognized..
........his comment to me later that night when we got home............"neither of those people accurately translated what they spoke in those languages.........it was more of a 'rough paraphrase' (his words") in the english"
............of course, to me, this was a "miracle", and i recounted this for the believers to share with them how frustrating my father's "unbelief" was to me, despite this "miracle" god had performed for him!!
And I don't doubt a word of it. However, it begs the question, what changed? Wierwille took control of everything he could for his own base greed and squeezed the life out of everything he could. I do not believe wierwille's lo shonta garbage was genuine. That others did manifest legit tongues points to Christ, not wierwille.
For the past two weeks I have been reading a lot here; far more than every before.I’ve also been resisting the urge to post every time I see an opportunity. That has helped my reading progress.I even got another chapter read yesterday in “Undertow.”
This post is dated March 2nd 2023, 8:06 AM.
What chapter of Undertow are you up to now?
And what’s some of your thoughts so far?
On 3/2/2023 at 8:06 AM, Mike said:
OldSkool, the more you share your life here, the more I can relate to what you folks are doing here.A few others have also helped me relate to how things went at TWI after I left in 1988. In my mind I was leaving before 1988, and openly criticizing the Corps tactics and structure even as early as 1982.So I turned a deaf ear to lots of TWI-2 by the ’86 meltdown.
The more I read the more I see that things changed more than I thought in the late 80s and thru the 90s.
I have to admit, this separating the baby from the bathwater is more complicated than I thought it would be 20 years ago.
What I am trying to say is I am better recognizing the culty trappings of the Corps and TWI-2 and TWI-3, and the difficulties in breaking away from them.Translated into action, these observations have led me to read more and post less.
Does this mean you don’t see any “culty trappings” in TWI-1 under wierwille?
Are you saying you wish it would all revert back to TWI-1 under wierwille?
On 3/2/2023 at 8:06 AM, Mike said:
This little theory or hunch I am airing out here is still in the making. I am not insisting that this double door and tight budget thing is true.It just seems to help me think sometimes, and it has been persistent over decades in popping up in my mind.
I can understand doing a thinking experiment and using various motifs to think through a problem.
But do you think you’re pushing it too far when you try squeezing Scripture to fit into your mental model? So far you have NOT demonstrated how your double door / budget theory is a good fit with Scripture.
Why would God Almighty have to be concerned with accidentally giving the adversary access to mess things up? Do you think the adversary is a pretty close match for God Almighty?
On 3/2/2023 at 8:06 AM, Mike said:
But NEVER have I been entertaining the thought that God is interested in “turning off miracles.”
I always see it as a temporary STRATEGIC measure, that God would cause the doors to close.It’s limiting the adversary’s power over us that I see as God’s motivation behind the closed doors.I think He is always looking for the safe opportunity for Him to bless us in ways that do not allow the adversary the ability to mess it up. Opening the doors for a direct and powerful intervention seems to not be His inclination, due to circumstances.
strategic measures = used to track progress in achieving objectives and goals.
How is God closing said “doors” tracking the progress of limiting the adversary’s power over us? Is it too difficult for God to do a one-time nuke to stop him dead in his tracks? Serious question here! Why do you think the adversary has been allowed to harass humankind from the get-go?
On 3/2/2023 at 8:06 AM, Mike said:
God not only looks at our believing before a miracle occurs, but afterwards as well.
He sees in fore-knowledge where our believing will be after the miracle. I feel God looks to see that we are ready and able and believing for the miracle, but He ALSO looks at our believing to handle the “after-challenges” of the adversary.
An example of this might be how Elisha handled the post-healing scenario with Naaman, compared to how Gehazi mis-handled it.
An interesting observation Mike! Thanks ! Good stuff !
I think there’s a lot of other big lessons to unpack in II Kings 5.
Gehazi’s greed may have cast doubt over the integrity of Elisha’s prophetic office – by Gehazi telling Naaman the situation had changed and Elisha had now changed his mind over accepting a gift for Naaman’s healing (which he declined in verse 16) ; Gehazi lied and said it was for a good cause – 2 young sons of he prophets just got into town and needed money and a change of clothes.
Gehazi’s actions / lies reveal a lack of faith in God’s ability to provide. Gehazi intended to take something from Naaman – and in classic OT poetic justice – he “took” Naaman’s leprosy…for Gehazi - personal gain had become more important than serving God…I find in this account a great lesson about true service being motivated by love and devotion to God and seeks no personal gain.
Perhaps this should give one pause and reflect on what it says about TWI-1 under wierwille. I find it hard to believe wierwille had good intentions – motivated by love and devotion to God – since his ministry was largely based on plagiarism for personal gain.
With those preliminary remarks out of the way – enjoy reading II Kings 5:
1Now Naaman was commander of the army of the king of Aram. He was a great man in the sight of his master and highly regarded, because through him the Lord had given victory to Aram. He was a valiant soldier, but he had leprosy.
2Now bands of raiders from Aram had gone out and had taken captive a young girl from Israel, and she served Naaman’s wife. 3She said to her mistress, “If only my master would see the prophet who is in Samaria! He would cure him of his leprosy.”
4Naaman went to his master and told him what the girl from Israel had said. 5“By all means, go,” the king of Aram replied. “I will send a letter to the king of Israel.” So Naaman left, taking with him ten talents b of silver, six thousand shekels c of gold and ten sets of clothing. 6The letter that he took to the king of Israel read: “With this letter I am sending my servant Naaman to you so that you may cure him of his leprosy.”
7As soon as the king of Israel read the letter, he tore his robes and said, “Am I God? Can I kill and bring back to life? Why does this fellow send someone to me to be cured of his leprosy? See how he is trying to pick a quarrel with me!”
8When Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had torn his robes, he sent him this message: “Why have you torn your robes? Have the man come to me and he will know that there is a prophet in Israel.” 9So Naaman went with his horses and chariots and stopped at the door of Elisha’s house. 10Elisha sent a messenger to say to him, “Go, wash yourself seven times in the Jordan, and your flesh will be restored and you will be cleansed.”
11But Naaman went away angry and said, “I thought that he would surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the Lord his God, wave his hand over the spot and cure me of my leprosy. 12Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Couldn’t I wash in them and be cleansed?” So he turned and went off in a rage.
13Naaman’s servants went to him and said, “My father, if the prophet had told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more, then, when he tells you, ‘Wash and be cleansed’!” 14So he went down and dipped himself in the Jordan seven times, as the man of God had told him, and his flesh was restored and became clean like that of a young boy.
15Then Naaman and all his attendants went back to the man of God. He stood before him and said, “Now I know that there is no God in all the world except in Israel. So please accept a gift from your servant.”
16The prophet answered, “As surely as the Lord lives, whom I serve, I will not accept a thing.” And even though Naaman urged him, he refused.
17“If you will not,” said Naaman, “please let me, your servant, be given as much earth as a pair of mules can carry, for your servant will never again make burnt offerings and sacrifices to any other god but the Lord. 18But may the Lord forgive your servant for this one thing: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I have to bow there also—when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the Lord forgive your servant for this.”
After Naaman had traveled some distance, 20Gehazi, the servant of Elisha the man of God, said to himself, “My master was too easy on Naaman, this Aramean, by not accepting from him what he brought. As surely as the Lord lives, I will run after him and get something from him.”
21So Gehazi hurried after Naaman. When Naaman saw him running toward him, he got down from the chariot to meet him. “Is everything all right?” he asked.
22“Everything is all right,” Gehazi answered. “My master sent me to say, ‘Two young men from the company of the prophets have just come to me from the hill country of Ephraim. Please give them a talent d of silver and two sets of clothing.’ ”
23“By all means, take two talents,” said Naaman. He urged Gehazi to accept them, and then tied up the two talents of silver in two bags, with two sets of clothing. He gave them to two of his servants, and they carried them ahead of Gehazi. 24When Gehazi came to the hill, he took the things from the servants and put them away in the house. He sent the men away and they left.
25When he went in and stood before his master, Elisha asked him, “Where have you been, Gehazi?”
“Your servant didn’t go anywhere,” Gehazi answered.
26But Elisha said to him, “Was not my spirit with you when the man got down from his chariot to meet you? Is this the time to take money or to accept clothes—or olive groves and vineyards, or flocks and herds, or male and female slaves? 27Naaman’s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever.” Then Gehazi went from Elisha’s presence and his skin was leprous—it had become as white as snow.
On 3/3/2023 at 12:20 PM, T-Bone said:
wierwille taught me how to fake speaking in tongues in PFAL - just like he relates how he did it in “The Way: Living in Love”.
*/*/*
You and I briefly discussed this idea of counterfeit tongues, and I said I had no more to offer, and was too busy to continue it. But then I remembered where a certain old post was located, so I am rekindling this little fire.
I am still working on a response to a few of So_crates posts, but I noticed this excerpt from an old post by Ralph D had several ties into this whole thread, as well as our mini discussion on SIT.
I slightly re-formatted Ralph’s post, and bold-fonted some selected excerpts, but you can find the entire original post here dated March 4th.
These excerpts were originally in a thread titled “How did the ordination of clergy thing work in TWI?”on page 4.
Look below for the genuineness of T.I.P.and also for a verification of what I said earlier in this thread about the way the Word moved in the early 1970s on Long Island, just across the bridge from Rye.
… i too experienced similar "niceties" from vic when he thought i had something in my life and background he could use......
my mother took the class, foundational, intermediate, after i left for the in-rez corps training, and was a "vocal" and active believer in the area i left behind for the corps "training".
..........however, my father, a professor of linguistics at ccny, and nyc high school foreign language department chairman and teacher, who was fluent in 13 different languages, was never "converted", despite vic's best efforts.
........my dad attended a sunday night fellowship at the rye presbyterian church once, in the fall of 1971, where steve heefner taught
.........as per twi "liturgy", there were "worship manifestations" at the beginning of that service, which included 2 "interpretation of tongues" which my father recognized as "known languages"
..........one, according to him, "portugese with a 'noticeable castillian spanish accent', and, the other a northern syriac dialect he recognized..
........his comment to me later that night when we got home............"neither of those people accurately translated what they spoke in those languages.........it was more of a 'rough paraphrase' (his words") in the english"
............of course, to me, this was a "miracle", and i recounted this for the believers to share with them how frustrating my father's "unbelief" was to me, despite this "miracle" god had performed for him!!
...........it was an incident which made the rounds among the fellowships back then........a great "witnessing tool" in spite of my father's refusal to "believe"!
my parents attended the roa '75, in lima,,,,,,,,,having spent the week previous visiting my wife and i at hq upon our return from our interim year of the corps............during that time, my mom cooked a sauerbraten which she prepared for us, in the kitchen of the wierwille home, and we ate the dinner she cooked, in the dining room of the "president's home" with vic, dotsie, uncle harry and naomi, my parents and my wife and i.........had a great time, 'cuz my mom was a german native, and we spent a couple of hours laughing and joking in german with the wierwille brothers and their wives.
......the next night, vic and dotsie took my parents and my wife and i out for dinner, at the wooden shoe in in minster, in order to "witness" to my father and "get him in the class"!
..........vic brought up the incident from the rye meeting i recounted above, which had occurred 4 years previously, as "proof" to my dad, that christ's resurrection and the "gift of holy spirit" were indeed true.
........and then he said to my dad, "i'm convinced you'd love the intellectual logic and mathematical exactness of what i teach in my class..........why not take it and see for yourself?"..........my father's reply......."until you can put holy spirit under a microscope for me, so that i can analyze it, i prefer to remain the agnostic that i am".
........LOL!...............my mouth must've dropped to the floor as i gasped out that good wooden shoe inn chicken when i heard that resaponse!!!
........i was expecting the worst, but vic just chuckled, and ordered another pitcher of beer for our table, and said, "well sir, that's just something i am not able to do"...........
during the rock, just several days later, vic called me backstage, where gary curtis was with him, and asked if i would introduce gary, who was the "head" of the twi translations department, to my father, because vic and gary wanted to ask my dad to translate the pfal book and class into french, which was my father's favorite of the 13 languages he was fluent in.
.......so, i took gary over to meet my dad, and they talked for about 25 minutes, with the discussion ending with my father "respectfully declining" to participate until that microscope of his had holy spirit under its lenses!
.............i still have that microscope of his!!............point being, that, all those nice, friendly things vic did for me, and my parents, were simply designed to get my dad to do the first french translation of vic's class!!
........pure and simple.............at the time, i was so disappointed that the mog himself could not win my dad for his "ministry", but today, looking back, i just laugh to myself, and whisper a little "way to go pops!" in loving memory and respect for my father's "unbelief"!
as i've stated previously on this thread, it was'nt vic who "fooled me" into the new birth.........it was my hippie, musician friends who first "witnessed" to me.......and dragged me to my first fellowships, where i met steve heefner and others in the early days of the way east "revival".
........as socks posted above, "I would like to say ditto to many of the things that have been said of Jim and Steve. I met them both way long ago, in 1968 and am glad I did.
There were a few years there when the amazing and the unusual were the pattern of the day. It'sbecause of those things I came to know beyond any doubt that Jesus Christ is living today and that God is my Father."...........amen, bro!
..........the miracles, signs, and wonders which "followed" all those friends of mine, and which were present in palpable abundance during that way east revival, throughout the many fellowhips sprouting up all over ny...........that was what "fooled" me into the outstretched arms of the risen christ!
.............vic's conspicuous "absence" from those early fellowhips had a lot more to do with that revival than did his later "conspicuous presence", imho!!
.............that "conspicuous presence" is what choked the true life out of that revival, as it did to the one in the way west, and the one in the old "northern ohio branch" mentioned in several posts on this thread!............it was wanting to see that kind of genuine, christian revival repeated again and again around the globe, which hooked me!.......and vic, ever the master manipulator and showman that he was, deftly transferred that desire to see the "resurrection power of christianity" with it's attendant miracles, signs and wonders, to his "ministry", in the stead of the ministry of jesus christ............that's where i got "fooled", and yes, that cult deception was indeed "poignant" for me, and thousands of others who experienced it!.................fool me once, shame on you.......fool me twice, shame on me!
Edited June 7, 2008 by Don'tWorryBeHappy
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I was there too. Things really happened big on Long Island in the 1970’s, before the Corps over-organization (dare I call it Wierwille’s Folly) ruined it.I was forever hooked, just like Ralph, on ever wanting to see that kind of Church on fire happen again.It absolutely can!
Edited March 4 by Mike
So Mike now you are reverting back to the groovy Christians of Rye NY - which actually was a Life magazine article.
The roots of that group are Heefner not VPW.
VPW was the one that came in and removed Heefner by taking power and put his newly graduated Corpse man in there - Bob Moynihan.
Then all the followers were diverted to the cornfields of Ohio to be indoctrinated at the Way farm.
So the church on fire there was part of the “Jesus movement”. This was a grassroots movement that was a genuine body of Christ realization.
VPW usurped the Jesus movement for his own selfish needs.
So Mike now you are reverting back to the groovy Christians of Rye NY - which actually was a Life magazine article.
The roots of that group are Heefner not VPW.
VPW was the one that came in and removed Heefner by taking power and put his newly graduated Corpse man in there - Bob Moynihan.
Then all the followers were diverted to the cornfields of Ohio to be indoctrinated at the Way farm.
So the church on fire there was part of the “Jesus movement”. This was a grassroots movement that was a genuine body of Christ realization.
VPW usurped the Jesus movement for his own selfish needs.
I was there. You got it very wrong.
Heefner was NOT the center attraction. Not at all. Only once per week max did we see him, and only for an hour. And we did not skip a beat when he was booted.
The Bible and Jesus Christ were witnessed to. We witnessed to what PFAL did for us, and ran classes like crazy. VPW visited once in a while, and we just got started on SNT tapes, but they were still rare and reel to reel.
There are lots of stupid errors that get repeated here and you posters end up swallowing and believing your own lies.
You just got the Long Island scene and Rye part 2 all wrong.
The Life Magazine article was earlier, and covered the early Rye scene.
The only reason Heefner had something hot to teach was because he took PFAL and pitched it well.
Heefner was NOT the center attraction. Not at all. Only once per week max did we see him, and only for an hour. And we did not skip a beat when he was booted.
The Bible and Jesus Christ were witnessed to. We witnessed to what PFAL did for us, and ran classes like crazy. VPW visited once in a while, and we just got started on SNT tapes, but they were still rare and reel to reel.
There are lots of stupid errors that get repeated here and you posters end up swallowing and believing your own lies.
You just got the Long Island scene and Rye part 2 all wrong.
The Life Magazine article was earlier, and covered the early Rye scene.
The only reason Heefner had something hot to teach was because he took PFAL and pitched it well.
No lies. Early Rye was the Jesus movement that VP usurped. By design. It was a power play like Haight Asbury in the west where he invited the principles out to the farm in Ohio to obtain their allegiance, then removed them from being the head of the congregations they started.
You were a stooge that started lying to yourself about all that stuff right around when it got started.
I was young and enthusiastic about PFAL once also as it represented a counter culture to a many times dead church environment. But the path it led toward and the fruit of PFAL over the world I eventually had to face the fact that it was dividing really great Christians off from interacting with other great Christians.
Once people took PFAL they would never again in their lifetime accept as genuine or collaborate with other Christian denominations and movements.
It’s different saying you do but proselytizing all Christians to VPs scriptural errors and poor moral example. And deifying Wierwille not Christ.
No statues of Jesus in the lobby teaching center. Just a studious VP teacher statue called the “Timothy” statue
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Rocky
He said pen is!
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Rocky
Did you mean to say YOUR INTENTION was to calm the discussion down somewhat? Your intention appears not to have translated into a message which could accomplish such an objective.
Do you REALLY think how you were actually viewing your statements matters at all to anyone? Not just here, but anywhere?
Let me see, I'll try it for you, see if this makes any sense to you,
Honestly Mike, WTF? More than two decades of doing the same thing and you expect different results?
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T-Bone
cool - I think what you admit here is honest...
HOWEVER - rather than insisting the ideas are hidden somewhere in Scripture is NOT cool - it's not being honest with the Word of God.
For something to keep popping up in your head might just mean you need to look elsewhere than the Bible.
Have you ever given much thought to philosophy of religion ?
Philosophy of religion is the philosophical examination of the central themes and concepts involved in religious traditions...it's not biblical theology...you get to examine and evaluate other religions. Philosophical discussions on such topics date from ancient times, and appear in the earliest known texts concerning philosophy. The field is related to many other branches of philosophy, including metaphysics, epistemology, and ethics.
Last few years I've gotten more into and enjoy reading and learning stuff from Taoism, Confucianism - will check out Zoroastrianism soon. ..The Case for God by Karen Armstrong is another good book - there is often commonality in all religions when they try to address the big questions of life.
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T-Bone
silly example Mike
you just cheapen this whole topic and appear you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Because I know by comparing what having real spiritual gifts feels like. I have confidence in what I offer in service to others that I don’t need wierwille’s counterfeit validation or someone’s silly analytics to blow smoke up my a$$ to make me feel good about myself.
is one of your theater friends named Kermit?
its time to put on makeup
it’s time to light the lights
god I love that show!
here’s the thing. I believe if someone has a gift they know it. In the natural realm , if someone has a gift for investing, painting, building repairing - whatever- they know it! Schooling and experiences may help hone their skills but the gift to almost effortlessly do whatever they do at any stage in their career I would think comes naturally.
that does not make you a lingusitic expert
i could do my schtick all different ways - and had a few pat phrases - doesn't mean anything or prove anything. all that was done by me deliberately thinking and articulating what phony foreign language words to say
repetitiveness means NOTHING unless it's actual words using a real language. you don't understand what is being said. I had a lab/springer spaniel who would get excited when we played with her and she'd start making weird noises like she was trying to roll her "R"s. sounded funny. was it a language ? don't know I only speak poor English.
you need to take a long hard look at the instances of SIT in Acts. Certain Witnesses understood the language. That’s what authenticated it!
wierwille and sycophants use tongues of angels as a gimmick to hide behind the fact their tongues produced in mass quantities all over PFAL-ville are languages…what is the language of angels? Get some linguistic experts on it - languages of any race , species or beings will follow the norms of what makes a language.
can’t believe I bought into wierwille’s fakery for 12 years!
how so? I could do my schtick for a loooooooooo zzzZZZzzzz
zzzZZZZzz ng time.
oh there is lot's of motivation to fake it. new students don't want to look like they failed. You don't want to be the only one in the class who DOESN'T manifest...you're kidding yourself if you think there was no pressure on new students to speak in tongues...class coordinators got called on the carpet if they report a new grad didn't manifest.
and while we're on the subject of manifestations - I challenge you to study I Corinthians 12, 13, & 14 in the Greek text and in alternate translations...wierwille steered us wrong ! the Holy Spirit does the distributing of gifts - not some VHS or Betamax tape from TWI...and you don't need a class to be taught how to serve with a gift energized by the Holy Spirit - - it's NOT dependent on you and wierwille coaching you to use your dinky holy car battery.
The Holy Spirit is a person! Not an inanimate car battery! In our language we capitalize proper names - Holy Spirit - so it's not holy spirit...and here I play by T-Bone's house rules so it's wierwille and NOT Wierwille because there's nothing proper about a pathological liar, drunkard, lying-thieving-weasel, plagiarizing, megalomaniac, abusive, egotistical, exploitative, malignant narcissist, sexual predator, cult-leader...if I left anything out - let me know...
...so with all of your great analytical skills examining spiritual things - taking note of repetitiveness, intensity and modulation - how come you've never noticed that wierwille was a repeat offender, an unrepentant sinner, a career criminal with many talents, distortions and transforming himself into a man-of-God?
Maybe you're hearing things...I've noticed you miss a lot of details - not reading long posts by others - taking forever to read Undertow...seems like you have the attention span of a cat - and that makes you a linguistic expert?
get well soon
what ?!?!
that's all you've got ?!?!
you call them "the most clear ones". ?!?!
oi vey - this thread is doomed
Edited by T-BoneAnd furthermore!
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Charity
You're right - stirring the waters can go both ways. I was referring to Mike's phrase "finite character" regarding Jesus Chris as his way of instigating a discussion that imho is undeserving of one. Mind you, I've been known to be wrong about things.
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waysider
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Nathan_Jr
March 3, 2023 was a day rich with treasure.
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chockfull
Another disingenuous pile of horse puckey. Somehow VP struggled with the topic before going off the self publication isolationist cliff.
Oh but Mikey was solid on all the concepts way before the book even came out. Then latched onto it with all of his minuscule ostrich head burying tactics. The only “systematic scouring” that ever happens there is censorship of material presented by the entire body of Christ.
Jesus Christ appeared to Thomas in his resurrected body. Jesus Christ exhorted Thomas to touch his side and to look at his hands with the nail prints from the cross. He confronted him and said “stop doubting but believe”.
When Thomas followed the instruction of the resurrected Christ he said “my Lord and God”.
Jesus didn’t correct him. If VP was right in his apostasy, then Jesus would have said “Thomas all glory goes to my Father, as I am just a resurrected man”.
You see God Himself has foreknowledge, and would have seen what a large divide that would be caused by Arianism in the future so would have protected His Word and Body of Christ by a simple clarification there.
But He didn’t. Why not? It was the perfect opportunity to correct a slight error in statement. Jesus corrected them on so many other aspects of scripture and concept that it would be ludicrous to assume he would let go such a major error here in his perfectly renewed mind and body.
What is the hucksters so called solution that I supposedly didn’t pay attention to or retain according to Mike? Oh it’s an “orientalist” that supposedly means “my godly lord”.
What in the literal f?
Orientalisms or eastern expressions do not substitute the infinite for the finite.
But what it does illustrate is VPs absolute dedication to the stupid “keys to the Words interpretation “ where he feels that the “difficult verses must be understood in light of the clear verses”.
Chapter and verse on that one? Not a chance it is something made up in the mind of Wierwille.
You can’t magnify 1 Tim 2:5 and throw away John 20:27,28.
Well obviously you can because that’s what VP did in the JCNG book.
To me that verse in John 20:28 indicates that if you don’t accept Jesus as “my Lord and God” like the paradigm example in the Bible did, then you are doubting and do not believe.
Understand the difficult verses for themselves, don’t dumb them down and force square pegs into round holes.
Or you are left with an idol. A dashboard bobblehead Jesus, and a bronze statue of Wierwille.
Emerson wrote “a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds”. That is what all of this artificial shoe horning or scripture is.
Apparent contradictions introduce a duality in concept, as opposed to a logical fallacy that has to be resolved. There is no need to resolve logical fallacies. Just accept the duality as it was given.
Then like all the rest of the body of Christ you have a common goal with so many other non cult followers in the world.
Also I think Mikes motivation to pick on this topic is to cause division amongst those seeking to eradicate the illogical Way Bible interpretations from their lives.
Regardless of what you believe regarding the deity of Christ, accepting him as Lord and Savior gets you born again and part of a large family and body of Christ.
Edited by chockfullLink to comment
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OldSkool
Well said, sir. Well said.
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T-Bone
wow wee wow - this may be a Grease Spot first - a post that visually represents tongues with interpretation...except it seems to be mostly an unknown tongue.
Hey Mike, back up and try again - I realize you may have something important to say in all that.
(a comment from a moderator- I deleted the glitchy post at Mike’s request)
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Mike
It looks like you missed my response to this on March 4, the next day.
Here it is again. Sorry for the glitch in my attempt to post this above.
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Posted March 4 (edited)
On 3/3/2023 at 12:20 PM, T-Bone said:
wierwille taught me how to fake speaking in tongues in PFAL - just like he relates how he did it in “The Way: Living in Love”.
*/*/*
You and I briefly discussed this idea of counterfeit tongues, and I said I had no more to offer, and was too busy to continue it. But then I remembered where a certain old post was located, so I am rekindling this little fire.
I am still working on a response to a few of So_crates posts, but I noticed this excerpt from an old post by Ralph D had several ties into this whole thread, as well as our mini discussion on SIT.
I slightly re-formatted Ralph’s post, and bold-fonted some selected excerpts, but you can find the entire original post here dated March 4th.
These excerpts were originally in a thread titled “How did the ordination of clergy thing work in TWI?” on page 4.
Look below for the genuineness of T.I.P. and also for a verification of what I said earlier in this thread about the way the Word moved in the early 1970s on Long Island, just across the bridge from Rye.
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posted June 7, 2008 by DontWorryBeHappy:
… i too experienced similar "niceties" from vic when he thought i had something in my life and background he could use......
my mother took the class, foundational, intermediate, after i left for the in-rez corps training, and was a "vocal" and active believer in the area i left behind for the corps "training".
..........however, my father, a professor of linguistics at ccny, and nyc high school foreign language department chairman and teacher, who was fluent in 13 different languages, was never "converted", despite vic's best efforts.
........my dad attended a sunday night fellowship at the rye presbyterian church once, in the fall of 1971, where steve heefner taught
.........as per twi "liturgy", there were "worship manifestations" at the beginning of that service, which included 2 "interpretation of tongues" which my father recognized as "known languages"
..........one, according to him, "portugese with a 'noticeable castillian spanish accent', and, the other a northern syriac dialect he recognized..
........his comment to me later that night when we got home............"neither of those people accurately translated what they spoke in those languages.........it was more of a 'rough paraphrase' (his words") in the english"
............of course, to me, this was a "miracle", and i recounted this for the believers to share with them how frustrating my father's "unbelief" was to me, despite this "miracle" god had performed for him!!
...........it was an incident which made the rounds among the fellowships back then........a great "witnessing tool" in spite of my father's refusal to "believe"!
my parents attended the roa '75, in lima,,,,,,,,,having spent the week previous visiting my wife and i at hq upon our return from our interim year of the corps............during that time, my mom cooked a sauerbraten which she prepared for us, in the kitchen of the wierwille home, and we ate the dinner she cooked, in the dining room of the "president's home" with vic, dotsie, uncle harry and naomi, my parents and my wife and i.........had a great time, 'cuz my mom was a german native, and we spent a couple of hours laughing and joking in german with the wierwille brothers and their wives.
......the next night, vic and dotsie took my parents and my wife and i out for dinner, at the wooden shoe in in minster, in order to "witness" to my father and "get him in the class"!
..........vic brought up the incident from the rye meeting i recounted above, which had occurred 4 years previously, as "proof" to my dad, that christ's resurrection and the "gift of holy spirit" were indeed true.
........and then he said to my dad, "i'm convinced you'd love the intellectual logic and mathematical exactness of what i teach in my class..........why not take it and see for yourself?"..........my father's reply......."until you can put holy spirit under a microscope for me, so that i can analyze it, i prefer to remain the agnostic that i am".
........LOL!...............my mouth must've dropped to the floor as i gasped out that good wooden shoe inn chicken when i heard that resaponse!!!
........i was expecting the worst, but vic just chuckled, and ordered another pitcher of beer for our table, and said, "well sir, that's just something i am not able to do"...........
during the rock, just several days later, vic called me backstage, where gary curtis was with him, and asked if i would introduce gary, who was the "head" of the twi translations department, to my father, because vic and gary wanted to ask my dad to translate the pfal book and class into french, which was my father's favorite of the 13 languages he was fluent in.
.......so, i took gary over to meet my dad, and they talked for about 25 minutes, with the discussion ending with my father "respectfully declining" to participate until that microscope of his had holy spirit under its lenses!
.............i still have that microscope of his!!............point being, that, all those nice, friendly things vic did for me, and my parents, were simply designed to get my dad to do the first french translation of vic's class!!
........pure and simple.............at the time, i was so disappointed that the mog himself could not win my dad for his "ministry", but today, looking back, i just laugh to myself, and whisper a little "way to go pops!" in loving memory and respect for my father's "unbelief"!
as i've stated previously on this thread, it was'nt vic who "fooled me" into the new birth.........it was my hippie, musician friends who first "witnessed" to me.......and dragged me to my first fellowships, where i met steve heefner and others in the early days of the way east "revival".
........as socks posted above, "I would like to say ditto to many of the things that have been said of Jim and Steve. I met them both way long ago, in 1968 and am glad I did.
There were a few years there when the amazing and the unusual were the pattern of the day. It's because of those things I came to know beyond any doubt that Jesus Christ is living today and that God is my Father."...........amen, bro!
..........the miracles, signs, and wonders which "followed" all those friends of mine, and which were present in palpable abundance during that way east revival, throughout the many fellowhips sprouting up all over ny...........that was what "fooled" me into the outstretched arms of the risen christ!
.............vic's conspicuous "absence" from those early fellowhips had a lot more to do with that revival than did his later "conspicuous presence", imho!!
.............that "conspicuous presence" is what choked the true life out of that revival, as it did to the one in the way west, and the one in the old "northern ohio branch" mentioned in several posts on this thread!............it was wanting to see that kind of genuine, christian revival repeated again and again around the globe, which hooked me!.......and vic, ever the master manipulator and showman that he was, deftly transferred that desire to see the "resurrection power of christianity" with it's attendant miracles, signs and wonders, to his "ministry", in the stead of the ministry of jesus christ............that's where i got "fooled", and yes, that cult deception was indeed "poignant" for me, and thousands of others who experienced it!.................fool me once, shame on you.......fool me twice, shame on me!
Edited June 7, 2008 by Don'tWorryBeHappy
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I was there too. Things really happened big on Long Island in the 1970’s, before the Corps over-organization (dare I call it Wierwille’s Folly) ruined it. I was forever hooked, just like Ralph, on ever wanting to see that kind of Church on fire happen again. It absolutely can!
Edited March 4 by Mike
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waysider
A friend of a friend of mine's cousin's wife once saw a space alien. I, too, was a bit skeptical until I found out that her nephew had been a janitor at NASA and confirmed her description closely matched an alien he had seen in a Sci-Fi thriller in the 1950s. Life sure is strange.
(Be right back. I have to go drop some coins in that parking meter I found using the law of believing.)
edit: She no longer posts here, but you can take my word on this.
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Nathan_Jr
NO!
Not so fast!
Gads! That is a whole lotta salad!
I didn’t miss anything. It seems you failed to understand my post.
I’ll reread your repost when I’m not so busy and have lots of time. Time. Meanwhile, your repost will find a cozy new home in one of my folders.
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OldSkool
And I don't doubt a word of it. However, it begs the question, what changed? Wierwille took control of everything he could for his own base greed and squeezed the life out of everything he could. I do not believe wierwille's lo shonta garbage was genuine. That others did manifest legit tongues points to Christ, not wierwille.
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Nathan_Jr
Tell us about this character you call God.
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T-Bone
This post is dated March 2nd 2023, 8:06 AM.
What chapter of Undertow are you up to now?
And what’s some of your thoughts so far?
Does this mean you don’t see any “culty trappings” in TWI-1 under wierwille?
Are you saying you wish it would all revert back to TWI-1 under wierwille?
I can understand doing a thinking experiment and using various motifs to think through a problem.
But do you think you’re pushing it too far when you try squeezing Scripture to fit into your mental model? So far you have NOT demonstrated how your double door / budget theory is a good fit with Scripture.
Why would God Almighty have to be concerned with accidentally giving the adversary access to mess things up? Do you think the adversary is a pretty close match for God Almighty?
strategic measures = used to track progress in achieving objectives and goals.
How is God closing said “doors” tracking the progress of limiting the adversary’s power over us? Is it too difficult for God to do a one-time nuke to stop him dead in his tracks? Serious question here! Why do you think the adversary has been allowed to harass humankind from the get-go?
An interesting observation Mike! Thanks ! Good stuff !
I think there’s a lot of other big lessons to unpack in II Kings 5.
Gehazi’s greed may have cast doubt over the integrity of Elisha’s prophetic office – by Gehazi telling Naaman the situation had changed and Elisha had now changed his mind over accepting a gift for Naaman’s healing (which he declined in verse 16) ; Gehazi lied and said it was for a good cause – 2 young sons of he prophets just got into town and needed money and a change of clothes.
Gehazi’s actions / lies reveal a lack of faith in God’s ability to provide. Gehazi intended to take something from Naaman – and in classic OT poetic justice – he “took” Naaman’s leprosy…for Gehazi - personal gain had become more important than serving God…I find in this account a great lesson about true service being motivated by love and devotion to God and seeks no personal gain.
Perhaps this should give one pause and reflect on what it says about TWI-1 under wierwille. I find it hard to believe wierwille had good intentions – motivated by love and devotion to God – since his ministry was largely based on plagiarism for personal gain.
With those preliminary remarks out of the way – enjoy reading II Kings 5:
1Now Naaman was commander of the army of the king of Aram. He was a great man in the sight of his master and highly regarded, because through him the Lord had given victory to Aram. He was a valiant soldier, but he had leprosy.
2Now bands of raiders from Aram had gone out and had taken captive a young girl from Israel, and she served Naaman’s wife. 3She said to her mistress, “If only my master would see the prophet who is in Samaria! He would cure him of his leprosy.”
4Naaman went to his master and told him what the girl from Israel had said. 5“By all means, go,” the king of Aram replied. “I will send a letter to the king of Israel.” So Naaman left, taking with him ten talents b of silver, six thousand shekels c of gold and ten sets of clothing. 6The letter that he took to the king of Israel read: “With this letter I am sending my servant Naaman to you so that you may cure him of his leprosy.”
7As soon as the king of Israel read the letter, he tore his robes and said, “Am I God? Can I kill and bring back to life? Why does this fellow send someone to me to be cured of his leprosy? See how he is trying to pick a quarrel with me!”
8When Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had torn his robes, he sent him this message: “Why have you torn your robes? Have the man come to me and he will know that there is a prophet in Israel.” 9So Naaman went with his horses and chariots and stopped at the door of Elisha’s house. 10Elisha sent a messenger to say to him, “Go, wash yourself seven times in the Jordan, and your flesh will be restored and you will be cleansed.”
11But Naaman went away angry and said, “I thought that he would surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the Lord his God, wave his hand over the spot and cure me of my leprosy. 12Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Couldn’t I wash in them and be cleansed?” So he turned and went off in a rage.
13Naaman’s servants went to him and said, “My father, if the prophet had told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more, then, when he tells you, ‘Wash and be cleansed’!” 14So he went down and dipped himself in the Jordan seven times, as the man of God had told him, and his flesh was restored and became clean like that of a young boy.
15Then Naaman and all his attendants went back to the man of God. He stood before him and said, “Now I know that there is no God in all the world except in Israel. So please accept a gift from your servant.”
16The prophet answered, “As surely as the Lord lives, whom I serve, I will not accept a thing.” And even though Naaman urged him, he refused.
17“If you will not,” said Naaman, “please let me, your servant, be given as much earth as a pair of mules can carry, for your servant will never again make burnt offerings and sacrifices to any other god but the Lord. 18But may the Lord forgive your servant for this one thing: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I have to bow there also—when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the Lord forgive your servant for this.”
19“Go in peace,” Elisha said.
After Naaman had traveled some distance, 20Gehazi, the servant of Elisha the man of God, said to himself, “My master was too easy on Naaman, this Aramean, by not accepting from him what he brought. As surely as the Lord lives, I will run after him and get something from him.”
21So Gehazi hurried after Naaman. When Naaman saw him running toward him, he got down from the chariot to meet him. “Is everything all right?” he asked.
22“Everything is all right,” Gehazi answered. “My master sent me to say, ‘Two young men from the company of the prophets have just come to me from the hill country of Ephraim. Please give them a talent d of silver and two sets of clothing.’ ”
23“By all means, take two talents,” said Naaman. He urged Gehazi to accept them, and then tied up the two talents of silver in two bags, with two sets of clothing. He gave them to two of his servants, and they carried them ahead of Gehazi. 24When Gehazi came to the hill, he took the things from the servants and put them away in the house. He sent the men away and they left.
25When he went in and stood before his master, Elisha asked him, “Where have you been, Gehazi?”
“Your servant didn’t go anywhere,” Gehazi answered.
26But Elisha said to him, “Was not my spirit with you when the man got down from his chariot to meet you? Is this the time to take money or to accept clothes—or olive groves and vineyards, or flocks and herds, or male and female slaves? 27Naaman’s leprosy will cling to you and to your descendants forever.” Then Gehazi went from Elisha’s presence and his skin was leprous—it had become as white as snow.
2 Kings 5 NIV
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cman
well.....hmm
the adversary is in me
so is Christ....in me
There isn't any double doors in my head....I think anyways
You know I just wonder who was talking to who in Genesis...I mean really.....
And Job for that matter
Where is all this taking place? And doesn't it sound familiar to anyone who can think for themselves
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chockfull
So Mike now you are reverting back to the groovy Christians of Rye NY - which actually was a Life magazine article.
The roots of that group are Heefner not VPW.
VPW was the one that came in and removed Heefner by taking power and put his newly graduated Corpse man in there - Bob Moynihan.
Then all the followers were diverted to the cornfields of Ohio to be indoctrinated at the Way farm.
So the church on fire there was part of the “Jesus movement”. This was a grassroots movement that was a genuine body of Christ realization.
VPW usurped the Jesus movement for his own selfish needs.
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Raf
I suppose this is where i call bs on the "my dad was a linguist who confirmed SIT produced languages bulls hit story. FYI
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Mike
I was there. You got it very wrong.
Heefner was NOT the center attraction. Not at all. Only once per week max did we see him, and only for an hour. And we did not skip a beat when he was booted.
The Bible and Jesus Christ were witnessed to. We witnessed to what PFAL did for us, and ran classes like crazy. VPW visited once in a while, and we just got started on SNT tapes, but they were still rare and reel to reel.
There are lots of stupid errors that get repeated here and you posters end up swallowing and believing your own lies.
You just got the Long Island scene and Rye part 2 all wrong.
The Life Magazine article was earlier, and covered the early Rye scene.
The only reason Heefner had something hot to teach was because he took PFAL and pitched it well.
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Mike
No. They were laughed at.
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Nathan_Jr
Which was what exactly?
God is able to forgive even this. His ability is equal to his willingness. And he is willing.
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cman
eeyyyy....whatever I was part of a lot of pfal classes too....blah blah blah
It didn't take.....good thing it didn't
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chockfull
No lies. Early Rye was the Jesus movement that VP usurped. By design. It was a power play like Haight Asbury in the west where he invited the principles out to the farm in Ohio to obtain their allegiance, then removed them from being the head of the congregations they started.
You were a stooge that started lying to yourself about all that stuff right around when it got started.
I was young and enthusiastic about PFAL once also as it represented a counter culture to a many times dead church environment. But the path it led toward and the fruit of PFAL over the world I eventually had to face the fact that it was dividing really great Christians off from interacting with other great Christians.
Once people took PFAL they would never again in their lifetime accept as genuine or collaborate with other Christian denominations and movements.
It’s different saying you do but proselytizing all Christians to VPs scriptural errors and poor moral example. And deifying Wierwille not Christ.
No statues of Jesus in the lobby teaching center. Just a studious VP teacher statue called the “Timothy” statue
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