Bishop Pillai taught that the word for snake or serpent should be translated or thought of as "enchanter." Some snakes are amazing enchanters; just look at National Geographic. Hence, the downward spiral of Renaissance Art depicting a snake and an apple, corrupting people's mental imagery for centuries.
Lucifer was created to be astoundingly beautiful; he charmed one third of God's angels. Our mind picture of Genesis should have in it an enchanting beauty deceiving Eve, not a slithering snake.
Who in the actual eff are you to say what the Bible should say? Just open the dang thing and read it. It says snake and is obviously figurative and it says snake for a reason. Those twisted wierwillian re-intrepretations of scripture dont fly outside of TWI.
Bishop Pillai taught that the word for snake or serpent should be translated or thought of as "enchanter." Some snakes are amazing enchanters; just look at National Geographic. Hence, the downward spiral of Renaissance Art depicting a snake and an apple, corrupting people's mental imagery for centuries.
Not "should be." COULD be. The Hebrew word means both. Genesis 2 onward is allegory, not historical record - everything is a symbol, an image.
When one is willing to go beyond Pillai, which a 7th-grader can do with ease, one can go father, deeper in one's understanding.
When one is willing to go beyond Pillai, which a 7th-grader can do with ease, one can go father, deeper in one's understanding.
Duh! That is what I did.
I went from KJV verses first, many of them.
Then a year or so later I heard Bishop Pillai.
Then later still I saw Ezekiel 28:13-15.
Then a bunch of years later I figured there had to be a reason Jesus talked to the devil in the desert. My impression of Jesus' conversation with the enchanter was that it took some time and a few rounds of dialog and action for Jesus to see that this enchanting vision is not as good as it appeared at first. Then Jesus rejected the enchanter's attempted influence.,
Think about it. If Jesus knew it was the devil he was considering thoughts with, he'd be making the first mistake Eve made. I don't think it looked like a snake in the desert to Jesus. It probably looked like beautiful something or other... like maybe a burning bush not consumed or something interesting and enchanting.
I surmise without evidence, that Jesus probably thought at first that the vision was his Father or a good angel, and that is why he allowed a conversation to take place. As soon as it was apparent it was a counterfeit to Jesus, by the mishandling of the written Word, Jesus ended the conversation.
I went from KJV verses first, many of them.
Then a year or so later I heard Bishop Pillai.
Then later still I saw Ezekiel 28:13-15.
Then a bunch of years later I figured there had to be a reason Jesus talked to the devil in the desert. My impression of Jesus' conversation with the enchanter was that it took some time and a few rounds of dialog and action for Jesus to see that this enchanting vision is not as good as it appeared at first. Then Jesus rejected the enchanter's attempted influence.,
Think about it. If Jesus knew it was the devil he was considering thoughts with, he'd be making the first mistake Eve made. I don't think it looked like a snake in the desert to Jesus. It probably looked like beautiful something or other... like maybe a burning bush not consumed or something interesting and enchanting.
I surmise without evidence, that Jesus probably thought at first that the vision was his Father or a good angel, and that is why he allowed a conversation to take place. As soon as it was apparent it was a counterfeit to Jesus, by the mishandling of the written Word, Jesus ended the conversation.
You still aren't handling the Hebrew accurately because you lean on the rickety crutch of what Pillai said you SHOULD do.
In Genesis the context is creatures, animals, etc. An enchanting snake. It's not that complicated. Just read what it says. Learn Hebrew, if you don't like English.
If Pillai and victor could have beleeeved big enough to live long enough, which is to say, if they hadn't gotten so tired, they would have been taught. And in that teaching, they would have learned. But their beleeeving was no match for their fatigue, so they stopped running and fell asleep and died. They are not alive now.
I surmise without evidence, that Jesus probably thought at first that the vision was his Father or a good angel, and that is why he allowed a conversation to take place. As soon as it was apparent it was a counterfeit to Jesus, by the mishandling of the written Word, Jesus ended the conversation.
I think your speculation is pure ‘fantasy’ .There isNOTHINGin the temptations recorded in Matthew 4andLuke 4 that even remotely suggests what Jesus thought or why He continued the conversation…and it’s shameful you have such a low opinion of Jesus Christ – as well as projecting your own stupidity into the text.
You’re trying to convince me that it took a couple of rounds of temptations for it to become obvious to Jesus that He was talking to a deceiver ?!?!
It was only in the very early stages that I think he had no idea.
It says he was a man, so we as men ought to be able to relate to what he experienced.
One human reaction to hearing something outrageous is to think "Did I HEAR that wrong?" or another is "DId they really mean to say THAT?"
I think it takes a few rounds for humans to be totally convinced of very unusual things, at times.
Wow wee wow…doubling down on stupidity…okay…think about who you’re talking about and the sequence and context of the situation - obviously you did not REALLY notice what the text informs us about - Jesus was LED by the Spirit TO BE TEMPTED BY the DEVIL…obviously Jesus knew what was going on and who He was dealing with…one of the many lessons we can draw out of this account is to learn to be discerning like Jesus - wish I wasn’t so naive in ‘74 when I took PFAL and fell for all the bull-$hit deceptive teachings of wierwille!
I went from KJV verses first, many of them.
Then a year or so later I heard Bishop Pillai.
Then later still I saw Ezekiel 28:13-15.
Then a bunch of years later I figured there had to be a reason Jesus talked to the devil in the desert. My impression of Jesus' conversation with the enchanter was that it took some time and a few rounds of dialog and action for Jesus to see that this enchanting vision is not as good as it appeared at first. Then Jesus rejected the enchanter's attempted influence.,
Think about it. If Jesus knew it was the devil he was considering thoughts with, he'd be making the first mistake Eve made. I don't think it looked like a snake in the desert to Jesus. It probably looked like beautiful something or other... like maybe a burning bush not consumed or something interesting and enchanting.
I surmise without evidence, that Jesus probably thought at first that the vision was his Father or a good angel, and that is why he allowed a conversation to take place. As soon as it was apparent it was a counterfeit to Jesus, by the mishandling of the written Word, Jesus ended the conversation.
You’re missing the point of the story. You’re missing the forest for trees that haven’t even been planted. You’re reading too much into it. It doesn’t say Jesus was “considering thoughts with the devil.” Jesus is shown to refute and rebuke the temptations of the devil — with power and clarity of thought after 40 DAYS OF FASTING!
You’re so fascinated with debil spurts, you miss the high level teaching in this part of the narrative.
Christ reveals everything in the heart. If you go into the desert by yourself then that is who you have to deal with, yourself, there is no one else to blame.
Let's get back to the topic.
What do you believers in consciousness after death, or consciousness in spite of death, think about the "second" Lazarus, who was Jesus best friend. Do you think this Lazarus was unhappy that Jesus yanked him back to Earth from Heaven?
Secondly, as far as I know anyway - there was never a National Israelite Enquirer issue with the headline JESUS RAISES FRIEND FROM THE DEAD – BUT FRIEND IS UNGRATEFUL! …however, I could be mistaken...let me check on my collection of back issues of NIE…next to the pile of old Way Magazines – I’ll get back to you if I find something.
no one went to heaven before Jesus, he was the first to complete the journey
About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem. Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. As the men were leaving Jesus, Peter said to him, “Master, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” (He did not know what he was saying.)
While he was speaking, a cloud appeared and covered them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.” When the voice had spoken, they found that Jesus was alone. The disciples kept this to themselves and did not tell anyone at that time what they had seen.
I think the real point of the story is that, if you're stuck in the desert for 40 days with no food, you'll still be ok if you have angels to minister to you. That's important to remember the next time you get stuck in the desert for 40 days with no food. But, hey, stuff happens, ya know?
I'm actually undecided on this subject. I no longer take VPW's writings as absolute truth. Another verse that appears to describe deceased people as conscious is Revelation 6:9-11:
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Also the Witch of Endor story in 1 Samuel. The usual explanation we were given in TWI was d.s. influence but the book of Samuel doesn't seem to indicate this incident was an evil spirit fraudulently taking on Samuel's identity.
When the Lord was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal. Elijah said to Elisha, “Stay here; the Lord has sent me to Bethel.”
As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!” And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his garment and tore it in two.
Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jewish leaders. With Pilate’s permission, he came and took the body away. He was accompanied by Nicodemus, the man who earlier had visited Jesus at night. Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds. Taking Jesus’ body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs. At the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had ever been laid. Because it was the Jewish day of Preparation and since the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there.
For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit, in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison
Thought I liked this yesterday. Apparently not. Damn these gloves!
He was such a Bishop.
just…
…. mmmph.
Oh man...twi is the land of reverends, doctors, and an occasional bishop...those suckers love titles and love demanding adoration based on said titles....
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OldSkool
Dude he was a Bishop...
OldSkool
shoulda just brought the cloak like requested....
waysider
Yeah, me neither. But, ya know, you can inflict a lot of physical pain by hitting someone over the head with an actual bible. (Those big, heavy family bibles work best.)
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OldSkool
Who in the actual eff are you to say what the Bible should say? Just open the dang thing and read it. It says snake and is obviously figurative and it says snake for a reason. Those twisted wierwillian re-intrepretations of scripture dont fly outside of TWI.
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waysider
Well, there ya go.
I mean who could possibly know more about it than a guy born in India 2000 years later?
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OldSkool
Dude he was a Bishop...
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Nathan_Jr
Not "should be." COULD be. The Hebrew word means both. Genesis 2 onward is allegory, not historical record - everything is a symbol, an image.
When one is willing to go beyond Pillai, which a 7th-grader can do with ease, one can go father, deeper in one's understanding.
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Mike
Duh! That is what I did.
I went from KJV verses first, many of them.
Then a year or so later I heard Bishop Pillai.
Then later still I saw Ezekiel 28:13-15.
Then a bunch of years later I figured there had to be a reason Jesus talked to the devil in the desert. My impression of Jesus' conversation with the enchanter was that it took some time and a few rounds of dialog and action for Jesus to see that this enchanting vision is not as good as it appeared at first. Then Jesus rejected the enchanter's attempted influence.,
Think about it. If Jesus knew it was the devil he was considering thoughts with, he'd be making the first mistake Eve made. I don't think it looked like a snake in the desert to Jesus. It probably looked like beautiful something or other... like maybe a burning bush not consumed or something interesting and enchanting.
I surmise without evidence, that Jesus probably thought at first that the vision was his Father or a good angel, and that is why he allowed a conversation to take place. As soon as it was apparent it was a counterfeit to Jesus, by the mishandling of the written Word, Jesus ended the conversation.
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Nathan_Jr
You still aren't handling the Hebrew accurately because you lean on the rickety crutch of what Pillai said you SHOULD do.
In Genesis the context is creatures, animals, etc. An enchanting snake. It's not that complicated. Just read what it says. Learn Hebrew, if you don't like English.
If Pillai and victor could have beleeeved big enough to live long enough, which is to say, if they hadn't gotten so tired, they would have been taught. And in that teaching, they would have learned. But their beleeeving was no match for their fatigue, so they stopped running and fell asleep and died. They are not alive now.
If only they knew how (H-O-W) to beleeeve...
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T-Bone
I think your speculation is pure ‘fantasy’ . There is NOTHING in the temptations recorded in Matthew 4 and Luke 4 that even remotely suggests what Jesus thought or why He continued the conversation…and it’s shameful you have such a low opinion of Jesus Christ – as well as projecting your own stupidity into the text.
You’re trying to convince me that it took a couple of rounds of temptations for it to become obvious to Jesus that He was talking to a deceiver ?!?!
OMG Mike you so funny!
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Mike
Well, I mean REALLY obvious.
It was only in the very early stages that I think he had no idea.
It says he was a man, so we as men ought to be able to relate to what he experienced.
One human reaction to hearing something outrageous is to think "Did I HEAR that wrong?" or another is "DId they really mean to say THAT?"
I think it takes a few rounds for humans to be totally convinced of very unusual things, at times.
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T-Bone
Wow wee wow…doubling down on stupidity…okay…think about who you’re talking about and the sequence and context of the situation - obviously you did not REALLY notice what the text informs us about - Jesus was LED by the Spirit TO BE TEMPTED BY the DEVIL…obviously Jesus knew what was going on and who He was dealing with…one of the many lessons we can draw out of this account is to learn to be discerning like Jesus - wish I wasn’t so naive in ‘74 when I took PFAL and fell for all the bull-$hit deceptive teachings of wierwille!
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Nathan_Jr
You’re missing the point of the story. You’re missing the forest for trees that haven’t even been planted. You’re reading too much into it. It doesn’t say Jesus was “considering thoughts with the devil.” Jesus is shown to refute and rebuke the temptations of the devil — with power and clarity of thought after 40 DAYS OF FASTING!
You’re so fascinated with debil spurts, you miss the high level teaching in this part of the narrative.
victor made the same mistakes. All. The. Time.
Edited by Nathan_JrGloves
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cman
Christ reveals everything in the heart. If you go into the desert by yourself then that is who you have to deal with, yourself, there is no one else to blame.
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Mike
Let's get back to the topic.
What do you believers in consciousness after death, or consciousness in spite of death, think about the "second" Lazarus, who was Jesus best friend.
Do you think this Lazarus was unhappy that Jesus yanked him back to Earth from Heaven?
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Nathan_Jr
No! Not so fast! STOP!
I beleeeve Lazarus was stoked. He was bored in heaven and was happy to get back to the bar* with his best bro.
This I surmise without evidence. And because it's what I beleeeve, I can make it fit.
*The bars in "Bible times" were different. A couple Pakistanis told me this.
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T-Bone
First off, since I am unsure if there is consciousness after death as I expressed previously > my March 30th 2023 9:55 PM post on death, and where does the soul / spirit go and > my April 4th 2023 7:12 PM post defining consciousness is the $64,000 question! so, not sure if I meet the requirements for your survey.
Secondly, as far as I know anyway - there was never a National Israelite Enquirer issue with the headline JESUS RAISES FRIEND FROM THE DEAD – BUT FRIEND IS UNGRATEFUL! …however, I could be mistaken...let me check on my collection of back issues of NIE…next to the pile of old Way Magazines – I’ll get back to you if I find something.
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cman
no one went to heaven before Jesus, he was the first to complete the journey
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cman
this is the point of the story
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T-Bone
About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem. Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. As the men were leaving Jesus, Peter said to him, “Master, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” (He did not know what he was saying.)
While he was speaking, a cloud appeared and covered them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.” When the voice had spoken, they found that Jesus was alone. The disciples kept this to themselves and did not tell anyone at that time what they had seen.
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waysider
I think the real point of the story is that, if you're stuck in the desert for 40 days with no food, you'll still be ok if you have angels to minister to you. That's important to remember the next time you get stuck in the desert for 40 days with no food. But, hey, stuff happens, ya know?
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Exidor
I'm actually undecided on this subject. I no longer take VPW's writings as absolute truth. Another verse that appears to describe deceased people as conscious is Revelation 6:9-11:
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Also the Witch of Endor story in 1 Samuel. The usual explanation we were given in TWI was d.s. influence but the book of Samuel doesn't seem to indicate this incident was an evil spirit fraudulently taking on Samuel's identity.
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Mike
I agree.
Peter talks on Pentecost how David did not go to heaven ahead of Jesus, but was still in the grave on that day.
Plus, Jesus did not have to die to go to heaven. He went up to heaven alive, not going down first to the grave, and then to heaven.
Same with us; we will be awoken from sleep and taken up alive like Jesus.
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T-Bone
When the Lord was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal. Elijah said to Elisha, “Stay here; the Lord has sent me to Bethel.”
As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!” And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his garment and tore it in two.
Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jewish leaders. With Pilate’s permission, he came and took the body away. He was accompanied by Nicodemus, the man who earlier had visited Jesus at night. Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds. Taking Jesus’ body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs. At the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had ever been laid. Because it was the Jewish day of Preparation and since the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there.
For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit, in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison
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Nathan_Jr
Thought I liked this yesterday. Apparently not. Damn these gloves!
He was such a Bishop.
just…
…. mmmph.
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cman
this is why you are not taken seriously, ignorance
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OldSkool
Oh man...twi is the land of reverends, doctors, and an occasional bishop...those suckers love titles and love demanding adoration based on said titles....
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