Well we see the gaslighting part that prevents people from taking accountability for their actions and asking for forgiveness. I guess that is a small illustration.
And using manipulation to say “do this” and I’ll forgive you.
Holy crap this is a great illustration of how that cult used the emotional strings of forgiveness to play us like a violin .
On the topic of unenforceable rules, I was directed to a definition Fred Luskin included in his book, Forgive for Good.
The definition is in chapter 5 of this book. I don't own the book, but you might be able to access it either electronically or in a paper or hardbound book at your local public library.
The class (webinar) I referred to provided an including copies of the pages of chapter 5. I plan to read it later this evening.
Maybe you should own the book at least if you are illustrating it as something that is pertinent to the topic.
Have you read it or is it just a recommendation on Good Reads from someone?
Very true. Online communications on an anon forums is difficult, especially in topics we are emotionally invested in such as those prevelant on GSC. Since the latest round of Mike wars Ive really desired to stop the bickering and I have. Im doing my best to stay objective and not get into the know you are but what am I type arguments that you guys warned me would ensue...lol. Peace all!
Honestly I am divided on this topic. All the bickering is unpleasant. However without it certain people control the narrative 100 percent.
This topic of “forgiveness” is among the worst for that due to how all these cults manipulate it so that they are not responsible to either ask for or to grant forgiveness from another.
False forgiveness keeps people in cults. Genuine forgiveness releases a burden and allows for healing.
Referencing back to my previous posts on forgiveness, here is what Jesus taught in Luke 17:3-4
3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he trespasses against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
Even though as an atheist I have a reprobate mind and cannot understand the things of God, I have found the part about forgiving seven times in a day interesting and perplexing. Is it a figure of speech?
Would someone please provide a scenario in which, you as a Christian, would allow yourself to be violated by a fellow believer, over and over in the same day?
In vs 3, the need to admonish the believer as to what action against you was sinful is noteworthy. The offender is then in the position to make a choice as to whether to repent or not and if they do, then we are to forgive them.
The word "repent" means "to change one's mind or purpose."
Verse 4 brings different scenarios to my mind, but I'll let the verse speak for itself.
Obviously, in twi, confronting leaders was worthy of condemnation and repentance was not a practice you saw modelled by leaders, yet followers were expected to be unconditionally forgiving.
I don’t view atheists as having reprobate minds. I think I called you some names though over the hypocrisy of purporting to speak for what God wants while not believing in Him.
I was over the line calling you names. I apologize.
The scenario I can think of regarding the 70 x 7 answer I can make a parallel to my dogs behavior. I have a hound pup whose nose gets him in trouble and I have to get after him 70 times a day easily. But I can’t get bitter towards him because he’s a pain. He’s a sweet pup. Sometimes I get exhausted dealing with him so he goes in his crate and wife and I get a break.
Thats probably a stupid example but it’s the working one I have.
Referencing back to my previous posts on forgiveness, here is what Jesus taught in Luke 17:3-4
3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he trespasses against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
In vs 3, the need to admonish the believer as to what action against you was sinful is noteworthy. The offender is then in the position to make a choice as to whether to repent or not and if they do, then we are to forgive them.
The word "repent" means "to change one's mind or purpose."
Verse 4 brings different scenarios to my mind, but I'll let the verse speak for itself.
Obviously, in twi, confronting leaders was worthy of condemnation and repentance was not a practice you saw modelled by leaders, yet followers were expected to be unconditionally forgiving.
It does seem evident that the sinner's REPENTANCE is a necessary part of the equation. We forgive IF HE REPENTS. If he continues in sin and demands forgiveness regardless, that's nothing at all like we are instructed to do, and we don't have to do it. We are, however, to be wary around anyone who would demand it, or even ask it, for that matter.
Now, for those who would SINCERELY wonder about someone trespassing AND REPENTING all day (7 times), I would point out that HYPERBOLE is a legitimate figure of speech people use all the time in English, and others understand them all the time. It's possible to misunderstand hyperbole- as it's possible to misunderstand ALL communications- but it's a lot more common if someone's TRYING to misunderstand it. [/b] [/b]
Example of misunderstanding clear communication:
William Shatner: " I’ve spoken to many of you, and some of you have traveled… y’know… hundreds of miles to be here, I’d just like to say… GET A LIFE, will you people? I mean, for crying out loud, it’s just a TV show! I mean, look at you, look at the way you’re dressed! You’ve turned an enjoyable little job, that I did as a lark for a few years, into a COLOSSAL WASTE OF TIME! It's just a TV show!"
Fan: "Are you saying we should pay more attention to the movies?"
Gaslighting is continuing to insist that the things I brought up didn’t happen, or just refusing to address them at all despite very clear instruction on the areas where I am calling out your behavior.
Look. Fine. I'll kiss your BEE-hind. But I'm not insisting ANYthing about what you do or may not have remembered.
THE thing I've been TRYING to do, however, imperfectly, is to redirect this "discussion."
I don't give a RATS patootie what you remember or don't remember. You and I are NOT in any kind of relationship in which it would matter, except maybe between your ears.
I hope you find peace. Based on your words, it sure doesn't seem like you have been succeeding in that regard the last few days.
Take it or leave it however you'd like, but you might find solace in the message of this book: Stillness is the Key.
I don't know you in person. I only know your words on GSC. I apologize for disagreeing with you (and therefore, having somehow offended you).
----
In NO way do I consider myself to be a victim of anything you have said or done.
We are talking about forgiveness and the forgiver and the forgiven and absolution and resentment and responsibility and letting go and…
Repentance
Sincere regret or remorse; a change of mind or purpose… a change within spurred by deep regret or remorse.
This change, this repentance, will be self evident. It will be seen. It will be obvious. It will not require belief.
One may have legitimate doubts about an offender’s apology, especially if it is no sincere apology at all, but it’s a manipulative dodge. And the apology may appear or sound sincere, especially to the good-hearted offended who wants to forgive. Anyone ever in a relationship with an NPD has heard these apologies seven times a day for 7000 consecutive days — they are mere hollow, empty platitudes.
How can you know if someone is truly repentant? They will be changed in their heart and word and deed, they will live this change, and this change will be seen by all.
We are talking about forgiveness and the forgiver and the forgiven and absolution and resentment and responsibility and letting go and…
Repentance
Sincere regret or remorse; a change of mind or purpose… a change within spurred by deep regret or remorse.
This change, this repentance, will be self evident. It will be seen. It will be obvious. It will not require belief.
One may have legitimate doubts about an offender’s apology, especially if it is no sincere apology at all, but it’s a manipulative dodge. And the apology may appear or sound sincere, especially to the good-hearted offended who wants to forgive. Anyone ever in a relationship with an NPD has heard these apologies seven times a day for 7000 consecutive days — they are mere hollow, empty platitudes.
How can you know if someone is truly repentant? They will be changed in their heart and word and deed, they will live this change, and this change will be seen by all.
Exactly. Right on the money. This is the cornerstone to my cult recovery and recovery from alcoholism. Im simply not the same person as I was...true repentance and forgiveness has occured. It has encouraged me to read your summation on the matter. Thanks!
Honestly I am divided on this topic. All the bickering is unpleasant. However without it certain people control the narrative 100 percent.
This topic of “forgiveness” is among the worst for that due to how all these cults manipulate it so that they are not responsible to either ask for or to grant forgiveness from another.
False forgiveness keeps people in cults. Genuine forgiveness releases a burden and allows for healing.
Agreed. The main point I was making is it's a bit easier to see people in person and communicate in a more intimate manner than the interweb. It does help to see people's expressions and such, body languaget, etc. But on the flip side many of our debates on GSC have yielded pleasant enough results. So we are here to discuss and debate and even argue...how else can we prove all things? Great points, Sir!
The topic of forgiveness came up when I visited a Christian on Thursday. When I said I believed we are told in scripture to forgive those once they have repented, she could not accept this and gave me many reasons why I was wrong including Bible verses. One thing she said that stuck out to me was God requires repentance because He's God - we're not God and so that condition does not apply to us. It sounded right, and I left there wondering if it was true or not.
The next day, I did some searches on the internet and found one that listed every reason she had given me the night before also with a Bible verse attached.
1. God still tells me to. 1 Peter 3:8-9
2. Jesus gave me an example when dying on the cross. Luke 23:34 (This one I accept.)
3. So my life isn’t blighted by bitterness and resentment. Hebrews 12:14-15
4. Forgiveness gives me power in my spirit. 1 Timothy 6:11
5. Most people don’t understand the significance of what they do.
There were other websites which basically said the same thing which shows how common a belief this is among Christians, including myself up to a few days ago. Whenever they read the word "forgive" in the Bible, they automaticallyassume it means forgiving unconditionally, and is therefore something we must do and if we don't, we become sinners in God's eyes. I feel it's one of those areas where wrong doctrine crept into the church that appears Godly when it's not.
I did find two sites which do not teach the above. They're listed below.
We are talking about forgiveness and the forgiver and the forgiven and absolution and resentment and responsibility and letting go and…
Repentance
Sincere regret or remorse; a change of mind or purpose… a change within spurred by deep regret or remorse.
This change, this repentance, will be self evident. It will be seen. It will be obvious. It will not require belief.
One may have legitimate doubts about an offender’s apology, especially if it is no sincere apology at all, but it’s a manipulative dodge. And the apology may appear or sound sincere, especially to the good-hearted offended who wants to forgive. Anyone ever in a relationship with an NPD has heard these apologies seven times a day for 7000 consecutive days — they are mere hollow, empty platitudes.
How can you know if someone is truly repentant? They will be changed in their heart and word and deed, they will live this change, and this change will be seen by all.
I agree with this. Dealing with NPDs or those on that spectrum involves a whole level of manipulation way beyond the norms and the abuse and forgiveness cycle to me seems definitely distorted.
Beyond that people’s logic can be affected by emotion. If a person is real upset that clouds their vision and puts blinders on so they can’t see simple logic as it applies to them.
I actually believe scripture to be true about people whose conscience is seared with a hot iron. Those in power who continually make abusive decisions lose their moral compass. In that they completely resemble a narcissist and just can’t see simple truth or logic as it applies to them. One example of this is VPW firing John Schoenheit for publishing a simple word study on the word “adultery”.
My gut feeling is that forgiveness is a broad topic that has many underlying nuanced truths. And that it doesn’t fit really well into an extreme fundamentalist viewpoint. There are too many twists and turns that can be involved.
I think most basically forgiveness opens a door to the future, whether for self or for a relationship.
There are also seemingly contradictory concepts in scripture. You have Jesus teaching to forgive your brother of a trespass 70x7. You also have Jesus teaching about millstones and the future of Pharisees. These need to be balanced by nuanced interpretations not extreme bigoted fundamentalist interpretations.
The topic of forgiveness came up when I visited a Christian on Thursday. When I said I believed we are told in scripture to forgive those once they have repented, she could not accept this and gave me many reasons why I was wrong including Bible verses. One thing she said that stuck out to me was God requires repentance because He's God - we're not God and so that condition does not apply to us. It sounded right, and I left there wondering if it was true or not.
The next day, I did some searches on the internet and found one that listed every reason she had given me the night before also with a Bible verse attached.
1. God still tells me to. 1 Peter 3:8-9
2. Jesus gave me an example when dying on the cross. Luke 23:34 (This one I accept.)
3. So my life isn’t blighted by bitterness and resentment. Hebrews 12:14-15
4. Forgiveness gives me power in my spirit. 1 Timothy 6:11
5. Most people don’t understand the significance of what they do.
There were other websites which basically said the same thing which shows how common a belief this is among Christians, including myself up to a few days ago. Whenever they read the word "forgive" in the Bible, they automaticallyassume it means forgiving unconditionally, and is therefore something we must do and if we don't, we become sinners in God's eyes. I feel it's one of those areas where wrong doctrine crept into the church that appears Godly when it's not.
I did find two sites which do not teach the above. They're listed below.
Hey Charity thanks for the effort searching out topical scriptures and the articles. I’m going to set aside some time to go through all of those just for perspective. I appreciate the work and sharing with us.
One example of this is VPW firing John Schoenheit for publishing a simple word study on the word “adultery”.
I apologize in advance for offending you on this one. Are you sure of timing of the referenced personnel action above and that it was Victor Wierwille who did it?
Hey Charity thanks for the effort searching out topical scriptures and the articles. I’m going to set aside some time to go through all of those just for perspective. I appreciate the work and sharing with us.
You're welcome. Please let me know what your thoughts are as I'm still interested in learning more about this.
I don’t view atheists as having reprobate minds. I think I called you some names though over the hypocrisy of purporting to speak for what God wants while not believing in Him.
God does view me as having a reprobate mind….oh well! God doesn’t have anything good to say about me.
I was over the line calling you names. I apologize.
Thank you and apology accepted
The scenario I can think of regarding the 70 x 7 answer I can make a parallel to my dogs behavior. I have a hound pup whose nose gets him in trouble and I have to get after him 70 times a day easily. But I can’t get bitter towards him because he’s a pain. He’s a sweet pup. Sometimes I get exhausted dealing with him so he goes in his crate and wife and I get a break.
Thats probably a stupid example but it’s the working one I have.
The topic of forgiveness came up when I visited a Christian on Thursday. When I said I believed we are told in scripture to forgive those once they have repented, she could not accept this and gave me many reasons why I was wrong including Bible verses. One thing she said that stuck out to me was God requires repentance because He's God - we're not God and so that condition does not apply to us. It sounded right, and I left there wondering if it was true or not.
The next day, I did some searches on the internet and found one that listed every reason she had given me the night before also with a Bible verse attached.
1. God still tells me to. 1 Peter 3:8-9
2. Jesus gave me an example when dying on the cross. Luke 23:34 (This one I accept.)
3. So my life isn’t blighted by bitterness and resentment. Hebrews 12:14-15
4. Forgiveness gives me power in my spirit. 1 Timothy 6:11
5. Most people don’t understand the significance of what they do.
There were other websites which basically said the same thing which shows how common a belief this is among Christians, including myself up to a few days ago. Whenever they read the word "forgive" in the Bible, they automaticallyassume it means forgiving unconditionally, and is therefore something we must do and if we don't, we become sinners in God's eyes. I feel it's one of those areas where wrong doctrine crept into the church that appears Godly when it's not.
I did find two sites which do not teach the above. They're listed below.
I think there is room to maneuver on this one because forgiving a wrong brings up the ability to discern, or judge, right from wrong and take appropriate action according to the situation. Theres times I have forgiven unconditionally, in the case of the way international's leadership who wronged me, and thers times I havent. I feel that people equate unforgiveness with bitterness and hatred. Nothing could be further from the truth. Its a case by case scenario that has no room for black and white thinking, though modern day churchianity seems to handle the topic in said manner.
I think there is room to maneuver on this one because forgiving a wrong brings up the ability to discern, or judge, right from wrong and take appropriate action according to the situation. Theres times I have forgiven unconditionally, in the case of the way international's leadership who wronged me, and thers times I havent. I feel that people equate unforgiveness with bitterness and hatred. Nothing could be further from the truth. It's a case by case scenario that has no room for black and white thinking, though modern day churchianity seems to handle the topic in said manner.
Well said.
I don't think anyone MUST do ANYTHING. One may forgive or not. It's entirely the prerogative of the harmed. Manipulation by dogmatic doctrine doesn't make the forgiveness righteous and genuine. I don't think compelled forgiveness is forgiveness at all.
Never again will I be manipulated into forgiving anyone. It's my business. It's my heart.
Forgiveness is for the forgiver. Forgiveness may free one from angst, or it may not. There are other ways to let go.
My gut feeling is that forgiveness is a broad topic that has many underlying nuanced truths. And that it doesn’t fit really well into an extreme fundamentalist viewpoint. There are too many twists and turns that can be involved.
I think most basically forgiveness opens a door to the future, whether for self or for a relationship.
There are also seemingly contradictory concepts in scripture. You have Jesus teaching to forgive your brother of a trespass 70x7. You also have Jesus teaching about millstones and the future of Pharisees. These need to be balanced by nuanced interpretations not extreme bigoted fundamentalist interpretations.
1 hour ago, OldSkool said:
I think there is room to maneuver on this one because forgiving a wrong brings up the ability to discern, or judge, right from wrong and take appropriate action according to the situation. Theres times I have forgiven unconditionally, in the case of the way international's leadership who wronged me, and thers times I havent. I feel that people equate unforgiveness with bitterness and hatred. Nothing could be further from the truth. Its a case by case scenario that has no room for black and white thinking, though modern day churchianity seems to handle the topic in said manner.
I agree with both of you. I think of Jesus' request on the cross for God "to forgive them for they know not what they do" as well as Paul saying in 1 Timothy 1 that he was chief among sinners, yet he received mercy because he persecuted and blasphemed the church ignorantly in unbelief. Considering his credentials as a Pharisee, it would seem that he was taught wrongly by the Pharisees he learned from (one of whom was his own father) which would explain his ignorance and unbelief. This can also apply to the many who were misled by vp's and lcm's teachings.
God cannot be fooled though because he looks at our hearts. Paramount to Paul's experience is that when he was presented with the truth by Christ himself, he had a complete change of mind and purpose in his life.
I agree with both of you. I think of Jesus' request on the cross for God "to forgive them for they know not what they do" as well as Paul saying in 1 Timothy 1 that he was chief among sinners, yet he received mercy because he persecuted and blasphemed the church ignorantly in unbelief. Considering his credentials as a Pharisee, it would seem that he was taught wrongly by the Pharisees he learned from (one of whom was his own father) which would explain his ignorance and unbelief. This can also apply to the many who were misled by vp's and lcm's teachings.
God cannot be fooled though because he looks at our hearts. Paramount to Paul's experience is that when he was presented with the truth by Christ himself, he had a complete change of mind and purpose in his life.
Right. Fair. It seems to me forgiving those who know not what they do is rather easy. Like forgiving a wild animal or pet.
But what about those who know exactly what they are doing?
I don't think anyone MUST do ANYTHING. One may forgive or not. It's entirely the prerogative of the harmed. Manipulation by dogmatic doctrine doesn't make the forgiveness righteous and genuine. I don't think compelled forgiveness is forgiveness at all.
Never again will I be manipulated into forgiving anyone. It's my business. It's my heart.
Forgiveness is for the forgiver. Forgiveness may free one from angst, or it may not. There are other ways to let go.
You're right - anything done because of being pressured and not from a willing heart does not benefit the doer. When it comes to listening to God and following His word, it's because of the "we love him because he first loved us" kind of relationship we have with him.
Being forgiven after we have sincerely apologized to the person we hurt as shown by our words and future actions is a welcomed relief and joy for the forgiven one.
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WordWolf
It does seem evident that the sinner's REPENTANCE is a necessary part of the equation. We forgive IF HE REPENTS. If he continues in sin and demands forgiveness regardless, that's nothing at all l
chockfull
Let’s look at this forgiveness topic from another perspective. The BODummies recently sent out a “come on home” postcard to a certain select group in their list of former member/slaves. They did not
OldSkool
The real crux of the issue is offshoots using this garbage as an excuse to keep the cash cow running and preservinvg their jobs. Of course offshoots and anyone still idolizing false prophet wierwille
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chockfull
And this thread is on forgiveness?
Well we see the gaslighting part that prevents people from taking accountability for their actions and asking for forgiveness. I guess that is a small illustration.
And using manipulation to say “do this” and I’ll forgive you.
Holy crap this is a great illustration of how that cult used the emotional strings of forgiveness to play us like a violin .
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chockfull
Maybe you should own the book at least if you are illustrating it as something that is pertinent to the topic.
Have you read it or is it just a recommendation on Good Reads from someone?
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chockfull
Honestly I am divided on this topic. All the bickering is unpleasant. However without it certain people control the narrative 100 percent.
This topic of “forgiveness” is among the worst for that due to how all these cults manipulate it so that they are not responsible to either ask for or to grant forgiveness from another.
False forgiveness keeps people in cults. Genuine forgiveness releases a burden and allows for healing.
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Stayed Too Long
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chockfull
I don’t view atheists as having reprobate minds. I think I called you some names though over the hypocrisy of purporting to speak for what God wants while not believing in Him.
I was over the line calling you names. I apologize.
The scenario I can think of regarding the 70 x 7 answer I can make a parallel to my dogs behavior. I have a hound pup whose nose gets him in trouble and I have to get after him 70 times a day easily. But I can’t get bitter towards him because he’s a pain. He’s a sweet pup. Sometimes I get exhausted dealing with him so he goes in his crate and wife and I get a break.
Thats probably a stupid example but it’s the working one I have.
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WordWolf
It does seem evident that the sinner's REPENTANCE is a necessary part of the equation. We forgive IF HE REPENTS. If he continues in sin and demands forgiveness regardless, that's nothing at all like we are instructed to do, and we don't have to do it. We are, however, to be wary around anyone who would demand it, or even ask it, for that matter.
Now, for those who would SINCERELY wonder about someone trespassing AND REPENTING all day (7 times), I would point out that HYPERBOLE is a legitimate figure of speech people use all the time in English, and others understand them all the time. It's possible to misunderstand hyperbole- as it's possible to misunderstand ALL communications- but it's a lot more common if someone's TRYING to misunderstand it. [/b] [/b]
Example of misunderstanding clear communication:
William Shatner: " I’ve spoken to many of you, and some of you have traveled… y’know… hundreds of miles to be here, I’d just like to say… GET A LIFE, will you people? I mean, for crying out loud, it’s just a TV show! I mean, look at you, look at the way you’re dressed! You’ve turned an enjoyable little job, that I did as a lark for a few years, into a COLOSSAL WASTE OF TIME! It's just a TV show!"
Fan: "Are you saying we should pay more attention to the movies?"
Edited by WordWolfFormatting error.
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Rocky
Look. Fine. I'll kiss your BEE-hind. But I'm not insisting ANYthing about what you do or may not have remembered.
THE thing I've been TRYING to do, however, imperfectly, is to redirect this "discussion."
I don't give a RATS patootie what you remember or don't remember. You and I are NOT in any kind of relationship in which it would matter, except maybe between your ears.
I hope you find peace. Based on your words, it sure doesn't seem like you have been succeeding in that regard the last few days.
Take it or leave it however you'd like, but you might find solace in the message of this book: Stillness is the Key.
I don't know you in person. I only know your words on GSC. I apologize for disagreeing with you (and therefore, having somehow offended you).
----
In NO way do I consider myself to be a victim of anything you have said or done.
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Nathan_Jr
We are talking about forgiveness and the forgiver and the forgiven and absolution and resentment and responsibility and letting go and…
Repentance
Sincere regret or remorse; a change of mind or purpose… a change within spurred by deep regret or remorse.
This change, this repentance, will be self evident. It will be seen. It will be obvious. It will not require belief.
One may have legitimate doubts about an offender’s apology, especially if it is no sincere apology at all, but it’s a manipulative dodge. And the apology may appear or sound sincere, especially to the good-hearted offended who wants to forgive. Anyone ever in a relationship with an NPD has heard these apologies seven times a day for 7000 consecutive days — they are mere hollow, empty platitudes.
How can you know if someone is truly repentant? They will be changed in their heart and word and deed, they will live this change, and this change will be seen by all.
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OldSkool
Exactly. Right on the money. This is the cornerstone to my cult recovery and recovery from alcoholism. Im simply not the same person as I was...true repentance and forgiveness has occured. It has encouraged me to read your summation on the matter. Thanks!
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OldSkool
Agreed. The main point I was making is it's a bit easier to see people in person and communicate in a more intimate manner than the interweb. It does help to see people's expressions and such, body languaget, etc. But on the flip side many of our debates on GSC have yielded pleasant enough results. So we are here to discuss and debate and even argue...how else can we prove all things? Great points, Sir!
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Charity
The topic of forgiveness came up when I visited a Christian on Thursday. When I said I believed we are told in scripture to forgive those once they have repented, she could not accept this and gave me many reasons why I was wrong including Bible verses. One thing she said that stuck out to me was God requires repentance because He's God - we're not God and so that condition does not apply to us. It sounded right, and I left there wondering if it was true or not.
The next day, I did some searches on the internet and found one that listed every reason she had given me the night before also with a Bible verse attached.
1. God still tells me to. 1 Peter 3:8-9
2. Jesus gave me an example when dying on the cross. Luke 23:34 (This one I accept.)
3. So my life isn’t blighted by bitterness and resentment. Hebrews 12:14-15
4. Forgiveness gives me power in my spirit. 1 Timothy 6:11
5. Most people don’t understand the significance of what they do.
6. Because I’m guilty too. John 8:7
The website is called 6 compelling reasons why you should forgive someone who isn't sorry (activechristianity.org)
There were other websites which basically said the same thing which shows how common a belief this is among Christians, including myself up to a few days ago. Whenever they read the word "forgive" in the Bible, they automatically assume it means forgiving unconditionally, and is therefore something we must do and if we don't, we become sinners in God's eyes. I feel it's one of those areas where wrong doctrine crept into the church that appears Godly when it's not.
I did find two sites which do not teach the above. They're listed below.
Do You Have to Forgive People Who Don’t Even Ask for Forgiveness? (davidservant.com)
Do I have to forgive a person who does not apologize? - BibleAsk
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chockfull
I agree with this. Dealing with NPDs or those on that spectrum involves a whole level of manipulation way beyond the norms and the abuse and forgiveness cycle to me seems definitely distorted.
Beyond that people’s logic can be affected by emotion. If a person is real upset that clouds their vision and puts blinders on so they can’t see simple logic as it applies to them.
I actually believe scripture to be true about people whose conscience is seared with a hot iron. Those in power who continually make abusive decisions lose their moral compass. In that they completely resemble a narcissist and just can’t see simple truth or logic as it applies to them. One example of this is VPW firing John Schoenheit for publishing a simple word study on the word “adultery”.
My gut feeling is that forgiveness is a broad topic that has many underlying nuanced truths. And that it doesn’t fit really well into an extreme fundamentalist viewpoint. There are too many twists and turns that can be involved.
I think most basically forgiveness opens a door to the future, whether for self or for a relationship.
There are also seemingly contradictory concepts in scripture. You have Jesus teaching to forgive your brother of a trespass 70x7. You also have Jesus teaching about millstones and the future of Pharisees. These need to be balanced by nuanced interpretations not extreme bigoted fundamentalist interpretations.
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chockfull
Hey Charity thanks for the effort searching out topical scriptures and the articles. I’m going to set aside some time to go through all of those just for perspective. I appreciate the work and sharing with us.
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Rocky
I apologize in advance for offending you on this one. Are you sure of timing of the referenced personnel action above and that it was Victor Wierwille who did it?
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Charity
You're welcome. Please let me know what your thoughts are as I'm still interested in learning more about this.
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Stayed Too Long
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Nathan_Jr
See? That’s how it works. Simple. One coin. Two sides.
Freedom.
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Nathan_Jr
I can’t do your repenting, and you can’t do my forgiving.
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OldSkool
I think there is room to maneuver on this one because forgiving a wrong brings up the ability to discern, or judge, right from wrong and take appropriate action according to the situation. Theres times I have forgiven unconditionally, in the case of the way international's leadership who wronged me, and thers times I havent. I feel that people equate unforgiveness with bitterness and hatred. Nothing could be further from the truth. Its a case by case scenario that has no room for black and white thinking, though modern day churchianity seems to handle the topic in said manner.
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Nathan_Jr
Well said.
I don't think anyone MUST do ANYTHING. One may forgive or not. It's entirely the prerogative of the harmed. Manipulation by dogmatic doctrine doesn't make the forgiveness righteous and genuine. I don't think compelled forgiveness is forgiveness at all.
Never again will I be manipulated into forgiving anyone. It's my business. It's my heart.
Forgiveness is for the forgiver. Forgiveness may free one from angst, or it may not. There are other ways to let go.
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Charity
I agree with both of you. I think of Jesus' request on the cross for God "to forgive them for they know not what they do" as well as Paul saying in 1 Timothy 1 that he was chief among sinners, yet he received mercy because he persecuted and blasphemed the church ignorantly in unbelief. Considering his credentials as a Pharisee, it would seem that he was taught wrongly by the Pharisees he learned from (one of whom was his own father) which would explain his ignorance and unbelief. This can also apply to the many who were misled by vp's and lcm's teachings.
God cannot be fooled though because he looks at our hearts. Paramount to Paul's experience is that when he was presented with the truth by Christ himself, he had a complete change of mind and purpose in his life.
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Nathan_Jr
Right. Fair. It seems to me forgiving those who know not what they do is rather easy. Like forgiving a wild animal or pet.
But what about those who know exactly what they are doing?
Let them repent?
Sure. Let them.
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Charity
You're right - anything done because of being pressured and not from a willing heart does not benefit the doer. When it comes to listening to God and following His word, it's because of the "we love him because he first loved us" kind of relationship we have with him.
Being forgiven after we have sincerely apologized to the person we hurt as shown by our words and future actions is a welcomed relief and joy for the forgiven one.
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Stayed Too Long
I guess we are to assume every illustration you have taken from a book, is sitting on the shelf in your library, or an ebook you have read?
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