Perhaps you are unfamiliar with trauma, PTSD or the sting of being ripped off. I was about to agree with you until you leaned on the cult trope of "crying about decades old offenses". These offenses include rape, sir. They include taking my teenage friends for abortions financed by a handful of money dipped from a free bucket of cash called "tithes". Perhaps giving your entire childhood to a movement that turned out to be a fraud run by grifters and perverts, stings a little.
"Crying" isn.t weakness. It is a basic human emotions. If you don't cry while you're recovering from a literal attack on everything you are and everything you have, then you're the one with the problem.
And by the way, I don't see anyone "crying" in the replies to your post. I see people who learned the hard way and are trying to warn you that these offenses, not all of which are "decades" old, hurt people. People still haven't recovered. Some people died, MAN. Do you have any idea the number of people who have died as a direct result of trauma from this cult? I have friends who died in accidents and were blamed for not being holy enough. It's gross.
There is also no rule that says if you're "crying" about the way's literal crimes, that means that we aren't walking with Jesus. That is a fallacy. Both things can be true. You can walk with Jesus and be wise to The Way's bullcrap. And when we meet a person who says they went to HQ and everyone was so nice, we want you to know that trusting in this group will deceive you and you might not even know it's happening. If you want to stick your hand on the burner to see if fire is really hot, go ahead. You've been warned. But don't pretend that we are all crying. We were trying to warn you.
You mean, like when Jesus overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and chased away the folk that made the temple big business? Jesus walked with God (and, technically, with Jesus) and he was vocal about some of the crimes done on his watch.
In my opinion, The Way is not a reformation of the church, first century or otherwise. It's the remnants of a devious MLM scam, built on lies and plagiarism. I'm not bitter, just stating the factual reality.
Not only is the vast majority of the material content plagiarized, it's filled with inaccurate assertions, such as "the four crucified", the so-called "law of believing", roosters that crowed differently 2,000 years ago, special bar mitzvas for illegitimate boys, inerrancy of scripture, bogus tithing requirements and on and on and on. The Way is and was a lot of things. A reformation of the church is not one of them.
It's possible to conflate the two- mainly because vpw himself worked hard to conflate the two, and convinced a lot of us, ONCE, that it was so.
vpw plagiarized his way through BG Leonard's class, JE Stiles' book, and everything Bullinger ever printed, and made a comfortable living off of it, claiming he was learning all this from God Almighty. When some of these people came up, vpw claimed he "got the error out" of their works- which was a bogus claim. That gave him materials from people who understood God Almighty more than he did- although if they made a mistake, he just copied it over because he lacked the depth of understanding to "get the error out" for real. But he could sure claim he did- and people bought it.
The real results came when vpw hijacked the hippies. He read about the legit Christians at the House of Acts- prayer, healing, REAL movements of God- and all by naive young folk whom he could hoodwink. So, he did. He went there, and performed his full act. Trying to serve God, and sure nobody would lie or deceive them, they became convinced- based on all the plagiarized stuff they thought he'd learned on his own- that this man was the great power of God. In this manner, he bewitched them. He managed to convince some of them to join twi. This was how he managed to strangle a new movement of God Almighty among the people, a move that the Devil no doubt applauded. He took people who were already serving God, seeing miracles, etc, and turned them into twi's sales force, quenching the spirit, and making them into income sources. Those people recruited people to twi, and those people they recruited did the same. Any real movement of God's people in twi was entirely due to those people. So, there are people who had godly experiences in twi- due to those people- and were told it was due to vpw, which was all a smokescreen. They still tried to serve God, but inadvertently advertised a movement of a man. Once those people started arriving, vpw was able to put into practice some things he'd always wanted to but never had the chance- namely, rape and molestation. He was able to put together really elaborate social structures to find him victims, groom the victims, isolate the victims, and cover up anything, and silence the victims if they seemed ready to come forward.
Confusing twi for a " reformation of the church" is possible if one has no idea what happened, why, or who did what. The House of Acts was real, vpw was a fraud. In twi, both interacted. It's that simple.
There is this reformation going on in Christianity. I believe it's called deconstruction. I've been churching a long time.
At IHOPKC the vision was the Arrowhead Stadium Prophecy. At Morningstar it was prophecy and worship. Everywhere it seems the vision was another Azusa Street Revival. Miracles? Where are the miracles? We know this much, God isn't the one who has to change. Well then, who has to change!?
Did any of you catch the recent Asbury Revival? You may not think that was real but don't even waste your time trying to tell me it wasn't.
Dr Wadsworth has just been doing a deep dive on the structure and practices of the first century church. Actually, he's been doing it 40 years or so. He himself started as a professional Sunday-preaching pastor. He does this deep dive and then he compares it to our modern churches with an honest look at our dysfunction.
I'm the one saying the Way incorporated a lot of insights into this dysfunction, perhaps the chief of which is that we the laypersons should be studying the Bible FOR OURSELVES. The Way does that. They teach that.
I don't have much of an answer for those who have memorized a litany of everything the Way did wrong and don't see anything they do right. That has not been my experience. I don't have the energy to change anyone's mind like that. If I don't find anyone here who has something redemptive to say about the Way my time here will be short lived. Not mad at anyone I'm just coming from a different place going in a different direction.
I want everyone to be happy. Just, why are people here? Im only here because I know of no other place to talk to ex-Way people. If I'm the only one who thinks he sees something positive I'm probably in the wrong place.
we the laypersons should be studying the Bible FOR OURSELVES. The Way does that. They teach that.
Oh, man. I hate to keep quoting you on this stuff, but that is exactly what The Way teaches you NOT to do. "No private interpretation" and all that razzamatazz. People have been unceremoniously kicked to the curb and left high and dry for even attempting that. I could go on forever with anecdotes that illustrate my point but I won't. There is 25 years worth of testimony here if you're so inclined to look for it.
It's a good thing I'm a follower of Jesus Christ and not some other man. The Way International taught me that. Previously, I considered myself an atheist.
The narrative of the life of VP Wierwille, maybe I don't know half of it. I do know this, I have Holy Spirit in me, I have some level of discernment, and even though he passed before I came to the ministry, you can't convince the love of God was not in that man.
Now, when you get done gnashing your teeth, I'm fully aware there were other things in the man, too. That's tragic.
How about that miracle worker Lonnie Frisbee. Is somebody surprised that a godly man can get horribly off track? Anybody here know of Paul Cain? Todd Bentley? Mike Bickle? Jimmy Swaggert?
Nothing new under the son, fellas. It's a good thing the Way Introduced me again to Jesus Christ. He doesn't have those kinds of problems.
Yeah, it's like I said, if I'm the only one who has experienced redeeming qualities with the Way I'll just need to be getting on my way.
No offense. All love. We're just doing something different.
Keep in mind, I haven't done much at all since the 1980s. I've experienced flaws. Serious Flaws. The people I talked to at HQ recently, they've experienced flaws too.
For anyone traumatized, I want to give you whatever space you need.
My fellowship commander, an eternally committed Corps grad, did not "teach" me to follow Jesus Christ. Instead, he "taught" me to stand on the shoulders of victor. Jesus Christ was merely a name to be uttered - the name of a bastard Jew far away in absentia.
The one who claims to speak for God is surely the one who does not.
One thing I can say about the Way, it looks like they never discovered good worship. Looks like they still do the performances. The rest of Evangelical Christendom has long known about something much more experiential with the Holy Spirit.
Recent Bob Stanley:
Hillsong:
Way Productions...God Awful
Hillsong music...inspirational, transformational...
Nice words Joyful Sound :)...Me and my family prospered after LEAVING TWI...I put it down to seed sown years previously. We still hold onto much of the 'Word' and occasionally listen to some of LCM's latest teachings (have learnt even more, newer stuff from that) but do not fellowship with any particular church as almost always within the first 5 minutes they're preaching trinity, or the dead are alive or some such diatribe...Psalm 119:104 all day...!!
If you're so motivated, please send $20 via the donate button. If you're not, no one is going to bust any part of you over it. But, yes, it costs money, and donations are cheerfully accepted and rarely solicited.
BTW,
I've been to groups where I was never pushed for donations. Of all things, I was involved for a time with a Catholic church group that never hit me up for donations....although we once did a project to feed homeless, and we did it out-of-pocket. Nobody asked me to, but I opened my pocket.... and in that instance, it actually made a big difference.
This has been my experience as well, the last few years attending mass. No legalism. No compulsion. Haven't heard a peep about "tithing", "abundant sharing".... although it's always "available" when folks come around. Nobody watches you to see if you're giving. Nobody cares.
I don't know how this is going to go over but here it is.
No end of the dead alive, angels, "caught up" to Heaven, visitations of the Lord etc, etc. I used to attend a small gathering in Jacksonville called All Things Restored. In one of their meetings, different ones talked about their out of body experiences.
Now, the Bible is not my God, God is my God, but the Bible is the owner's manual for my life with God. Just remember most of Christendom lived their lives without even having a Bible. I'm still in the process of reconciling everything I'm hearing with the word.
I'm the one saying the Way incorporated a lot of insights into this dysfunction, perhaps the chief of which is that we the laypersons should be studying the Bible FOR OURSELVES. The Way does that. They teach that.
VPW suggested that. VPW said of PFAL "try it.. if it works for you, you have an answer, if not, kick it." But like ALL other religions, TWI has and have inviolate positions and interpretations that make it difficult if not impossible to believe something contrary. Stray from the narrative and you will be out quicker than a fly on s.... They aren't open to change, LIKE ANY OTHER RELIGION. I personally experienced this in TWI through the tithing teaching when I questioned them up and down on it, they were unmovable, and ready to defend the VPW narrative to the end.
I really and truly wish I can say they wanted us to read, study and interpret the bible for ourselves but my experience differs.
And don't think for a minute that the Catholic Church doesn't do likewise. How long do you think I'd last there if I preach PFAL there? LOL x 2 ...
VPW suggested that. VPW said of PFAL "try it.. if it works for you, you have an answer, if not, kick it." But like ALL other religions, TWI has and have inviolate positions and interpretations that make it difficult if not impossible to believe something contrary. Stray from the narrative and you will be out quicker than a fly on s.... They aren't open to change, LIKE ANY OTHER RELIGION. I personally experienced this in TWI through the tithing teaching when I questioned them up and down on it, they were unmovable, and ready to defend the VPW narrative to the end.
I really and truly wish I can say they wanted us to read, study and interpret the bible for ourselves but my experience differs.
And don't think for a minute that the Catholic Church doesn't do likewise. How long do you think I'd last there if I preach PFAL there? LOL x 2 ...
I just read this. All true. All true. Except, does that reflect the Way today? If so, they don't want me there, and I wouldn't want to be there.
All love. Im not on a mission to mess with anything they are doing. Just, as I said, I stopped in to remember, and to feast on the beauty of the grounds. Serendipity, I met some really friendly and happy people. I talked to an old acquaintance from decades ago who had been a very emotionally well-adjusted individual- just nice and happy at the core.
I do receive them as brothers and a sister in Christ. If like to be friends. I could do without any stage performances I've seen but I think talking would be both edifying and healing.
I want to be friends with them. I want to realize our brother and sisterhood. It doesn't matter to me if they have some different beliefs. That's been the story of the past 40 years.
The only issue is whether they will accept me. I'm not exactly virgin clay. I'm not an empty vessel to be filled.
Now, here's a crazy thought. What if, down the road, some people currently with the Way came on this board wanting to talk. What would that look like?
Oops! This is the first thing that will get you in hot water. Make that boiling water. The Word takes precedence over everything... not God, not Christ, not family, not your friends. "You have no friends when it comes to The Word." (VPW). They don't come right out and say it, but, in essence, they worship The Word. "You have to put The Word above everything else." "Having done all, you just stand on The Word and don't let anyone budge you." (VPW). Oh, I could go on and on about how they exalt The Word (at, least, their interpretation of it) above all else, but I probably shouldn't, I have to go shopping for dental floss today..
“The Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word.” -vpw
Nothing. But. The Word. NOTHING.
So, what is the Word? It’s whatever victor paul wierwille says it is. I was “taught” victor did all the “research” so I wouldn’t have to - oh, how he toiled 18hrs/day for years. Such selfless sacrifice on his part, I was “taught.” I should be so grateful.
Oldies is right. It’s like any other religion. (TWI is indeed religion, no matter what they claim.) They are dogmatic, yet call themselves a “research ministry.” This is one of many contradictions illustrating their mathematic inexactness and scientific imprecision.
No doubt they are nice. Super nice, I bet. Friendly, I’m sure. Be friends. Go to their church (yes, it’s a church), fellowship with them. Whatever.
If anyone in TWI came on this board wanting to talk, I suspect they would be welcome. Wierwille apologists have always been welcome and free to post inexhaustible platitudes. Some here might have questions for them. I know I do.
Thank you. Thought maybe it was the guy who wanted me to know Chuck Baldwin is a verboten political figure.
So, who here is Christian? Anyone wanna get saved?
Fairly certain I am the only moderator whose identity is known and who visits all the time. When I am not modcat5, I am Raf.
You can feel free to contact me on either profile. I give $15 a month to GSC and I take nothing.
Pawtucket runs the place. I don't think his ID is secret but I also don't think he publicizes it, so not posting it here.
The other mods are Modgellan and ModSerling, each of whom has chosen to remain anonymous.
Lots of people here are Christians. Lots of people are not. Oldiesman, WordWolf, Allan are believers, though they probably disagree with each other on an issue or two. Chasity, StayedTooLong and I (Raf) are atheist. We try (and often fail) to confine our skepticism to the Atheism subforum in Matters of Faith.
So here's the deal: THIS forum is ABOUT THE WAY. So I was hoping we could get some clarity here:
If you would like to talk about what's going on at TWI TODAY, what they're teaching, how they are conducting themselves, how they are coming to terms with their past and recruiting for the future, awesome. As long as you're standing by what you "report" back to the group.
If you would like to discuss the MERITS of their doctrines, we have a whole "Matters of Faith" section for that.
I am very interested in seeing what TWI is up to, what they're charging for their classes, what The Rock is like, etc.
Anyway, you do not have to GIVE to participate in GSC, but I'm not gonna lie: we appreciate every dime.
Former IHOPPer! This is great! When were you there!? I hope everybody here knows about Willow Creek Church; Gateway Church; Bishop Eddie Long; Ravi Zacharias; Todd Bentley; Daystar; TBN, Celebration Church, etc, etc. If not, newsflash, The Way was not alone.
I loved the worship at IHOPKC (horrific murder/suicide/cult incident there). Like The Way, I never got involved in their programs (Intro to IHOP; IHOP University; Fire in the Night, etc). Eventually, they kicked me out. For one thing, as you might guess, I wasn't a fan of their 'Israel Mandate'.
You're asking the same things I'm asking. How are they processing ALL that happened? I mean, all of it. What's most important for me now, where are they at and where are they going? These are the conversations I'm looking for but I'm not going to grill anyone like they have to meet my approval. So far everyone has been open and kind.
I did listen to one of Craig Martindale's recent teachings on You Tube. Now, there's a resurrection, huh? He still holds Dr Wierwille in highest regards. Don't know about the Way just yet.
Wow, did I grow old, or what? LOL
I was never personally involved with IHOPKC. I learned of Bickle when a couple of his books were part of a Vineyard church library I was overseeing. If you type "bickle" in the search box above, you will see my posts about them. If you want to follow up on any of them, you can do it through those threads.
It makes me wonder how tightly the lines are drawn.
I think this is the only currently active thread and and I haven't posted to any others. This is the third time the boundaries have been laid out for me (second by a mod).
Are you saying the forum is not about people who have been involved with the Way? Just, the Way itself.
I find it very useful learning about the spiritual life of the person I'm talking to. Everyone has had their experiences with the Way and this one came away and became a Catholic. Another came away and sometimes listens to LCM- just, imagine that!? Somebody has been deeply traumatized by his experiences. And, atheists.
Of course I have shared a lot about my Journey, my faith and ministries I've been associated with. Are you saying Im pushing some kind of limit? As far as I know I'm the only one interested in reaching out to them and the truth is, how much a class costs isn't something I've even thought about.
I'm not into rocking boats. I just don't know how strict you are about confining the subject matter.
Comparing the lives of VPW and Lonnie Frisbee, for instance, to me that's very interesting. OTOH, you could say that's not about the Way. I just don't know because this freewheeling exchange has been therapeutic for me. I'm not really in need of anything, however.
There's Charity, now. Comparing IHOPKC and The Way, is that out of bounds?
I was never personally involved with IHOPKC. I learned of Bickle when a couple of his books were part of a Vineyard church library I was overseeing. If you type "bickle" in the search box above, you will see my posts about them. If you want to follow up on any of them, you can do it through those threads.
See, Vineyard librarian. Now, that's the kind of thing I find interesting. I'd love to hear this story. That's not specifically about The Way, however. Out of bounds?
The Way is no longer supporting "tithing", in their STS they talk about "GIVE" and in the last fellowship I participated I was encourage to give freely. So they are not longer asking for 15% even for graduates of the advanced class ( I was)
The Way has changed in the recent years? For sure, ¿ real changes? Not at all. TWI is bringing back the "good old years", uploading VPW teachings on their Youtube Channel, offering basically the same content. And hiding some of their core teachings in order to look more appealing to a younger crowd.
Good people in TWI? For sure, you can find good people everywhere.
You'll receive a lot of love in the beginning (Love-bombing uhh) ; as long as you don't commit to the ministry, they won't ask much of you. When you become deeply involved with TWI, the hell and abuse begin. And even though LCM's abusive tactics are no longer as prevalent, the emotional and psychological manipulation persists. I left TWI a little over two years ago.
If you have any question about current TWI, just ask.
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Joe Maslow
No, thanks.
Rocky
Glad you had a good experience Joyful. For many of us here, it would take a lot more than people being friendly and joyful to overcome the darkness the organization embraced for many years.
Junior Corps Surviver
The foolish man built his house upon the sand and the rains came down and the floods came up... Glad they were nice to you. They are a poorly researched, mean spirited cult who worshipped a man a
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WordWolf
You mean, like when Jesus overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and chased away the folk that made the temple big business? Jesus walked with God (and, technically, with Jesus) and he was vocal about some of the crimes done on his watch.
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WordWolf
It's possible to conflate the two- mainly because vpw himself worked hard to conflate the two, and convinced a lot of us, ONCE, that it was so.
vpw plagiarized his way through BG Leonard's class, JE Stiles' book, and everything Bullinger ever printed, and made a comfortable living off of it, claiming he was learning all this from God Almighty. When some of these people came up, vpw claimed he "got the error out" of their works- which was a bogus claim. That gave him materials from people who understood God Almighty more than he did- although if they made a mistake, he just copied it over because he lacked the depth of understanding to "get the error out" for real. But he could sure claim he did- and people bought it.
The real results came when vpw hijacked the hippies. He read about the legit Christians at the House of Acts- prayer, healing, REAL movements of God- and all by naive young folk whom he could hoodwink. So, he did. He went there, and performed his full act. Trying to serve God, and sure nobody would lie or deceive them, they became convinced- based on all the plagiarized stuff they thought he'd learned on his own- that this man was the great power of God. In this manner, he bewitched them. He managed to convince some of them to join twi. This was how he managed to strangle a new movement of God Almighty among the people, a move that the Devil no doubt applauded. He took people who were already serving God, seeing miracles, etc, and turned them into twi's sales force, quenching the spirit, and making them into income sources. Those people recruited people to twi, and those people they recruited did the same. Any real movement of God's people in twi was entirely due to those people. So, there are people who had godly experiences in twi- due to those people- and were told it was due to vpw, which was all a smokescreen. They still tried to serve God, but inadvertently advertised a movement of a man. Once those people started arriving, vpw was able to put into practice some things he'd always wanted to but never had the chance- namely, rape and molestation. He was able to put together really elaborate social structures to find him victims, groom the victims, isolate the victims, and cover up anything, and silence the victims if they seemed ready to come forward.
Confusing twi for a " reformation of the church" is possible if one has no idea what happened, why, or who did what. The House of Acts was real, vpw was a fraud. In twi, both interacted. It's that simple.
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JoyfulSoul
There is this reformation going on in Christianity. I believe it's called deconstruction. I've been churching a long time.
At IHOPKC the vision was the Arrowhead Stadium Prophecy. At Morningstar it was prophecy and worship. Everywhere it seems the vision was another Azusa Street Revival. Miracles? Where are the miracles? We know this much, God isn't the one who has to change. Well then, who has to change!?
Did any of you catch the recent Asbury Revival? You may not think that was real but don't even waste your time trying to tell me it wasn't.
Dr Wadsworth has just been doing a deep dive on the structure and practices of the first century church. Actually, he's been doing it 40 years or so. He himself started as a professional Sunday-preaching pastor. He does this deep dive and then he compares it to our modern churches with an honest look at our dysfunction.
I'm the one saying the Way incorporated a lot of insights into this dysfunction, perhaps the chief of which is that we the laypersons should be studying the Bible FOR OURSELVES. The Way does that. They teach that.
I don't have much of an answer for those who have memorized a litany of everything the Way did wrong and don't see anything they do right. That has not been my experience. I don't have the energy to change anyone's mind like that. If I don't find anyone here who has something redemptive to say about the Way my time here will be short lived. Not mad at anyone I'm just coming from a different place going in a different direction.
I want everyone to be happy. Just, why are people here? Im only here because I know of no other place to talk to ex-Way people. If I'm the only one who thinks he sees something positive I'm probably in the wrong place.
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waysider
Oh, man. I hate to keep quoting you on this stuff, but that is exactly what The Way teaches you NOT to do. "No private interpretation" and all that razzamatazz. People have been unceremoniously kicked to the curb and left high and dry for even attempting that. I could go on forever with anecdotes that illustrate my point but I won't. There is 25 years worth of testimony here if you're so inclined to look for it.
In Way World, up is down and in is out.
If you don't know the answer, write:
The Teacher
P.O. Box 267
New Knucklehead, Ohio.
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JoyfulSoul
It's a good thing I'm a follower of Jesus Christ and not some other man. The Way International taught me that. Previously, I considered myself an atheist.
The narrative of the life of VP Wierwille, maybe I don't know half of it. I do know this, I have Holy Spirit in me, I have some level of discernment, and even though he passed before I came to the ministry, you can't convince the love of God was not in that man.
Now, when you get done gnashing your teeth, I'm fully aware there were other things in the man, too. That's tragic.
How about that miracle worker Lonnie Frisbee. Is somebody surprised that a godly man can get horribly off track? Anybody here know of Paul Cain? Todd Bentley? Mike Bickle? Jimmy Swaggert?
Nothing new under the son, fellas. It's a good thing the Way Introduced me again to Jesus Christ. He doesn't have those kinds of problems.
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JoyfulSoul
Yeah, it's like I said, if I'm the only one who has experienced redeeming qualities with the Way I'll just need to be getting on my way.
No offense. All love. We're just doing something different.
Keep in mind, I haven't done much at all since the 1980s. I've experienced flaws. Serious Flaws. The people I talked to at HQ recently, they've experienced flaws too.
For anyone traumatized, I want to give you whatever space you need.
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Nathan_Jr
My fellowship commander, an eternally committed Corps grad, did not "teach" me to follow Jesus Christ. Instead, he "taught" me to stand on the shoulders of victor. Jesus Christ was merely a name to be uttered - the name of a bastard Jew far away in absentia.
The one who claims to speak for God is surely the one who does not.
No one can jump over a barn.
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Allan
Way Productions...God Awful
Hillsong music...inspirational, transformational...
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Allan
Nice words Joyful Sound :)...Me and my family prospered after LEAVING TWI...I put it down to seed sown years previously. We still hold onto much of the 'Word' and occasionally listen to some of LCM's latest teachings (have learnt even more, newer stuff from that) but do not fellowship with any particular church as almost always within the first 5 minutes they're preaching trinity, or the dead are alive or some such diatribe...Psalm 119:104 all day...!!
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oldiesman
This has been my experience as well, the last few years attending mass. No legalism. No compulsion. Haven't heard a peep about "tithing", "abundant sharing".... although it's always "available" when folks come around. Nobody watches you to see if you're giving. Nobody cares.
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JoyfulSoul
I don't know how this is going to go over but here it is.
No end of the dead alive, angels, "caught up" to Heaven, visitations of the Lord etc, etc. I used to attend a small gathering in Jacksonville called All Things Restored. In one of their meetings, different ones talked about their out of body experiences.
Now, the Bible is not my God, God is my God, but the Bible is the owner's manual for my life with God. Just remember most of Christendom lived their lives without even having a Bible. I'm still in the process of reconciling everything I'm hearing with the word.
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oldiesman
VPW suggested that. VPW said of PFAL "try it.. if it works for you, you have an answer, if not, kick it." But like ALL other religions, TWI has and have inviolate positions and interpretations that make it difficult if not impossible to believe something contrary. Stray from the narrative and you will be out quicker than a fly on s.... They aren't open to change, LIKE ANY OTHER RELIGION. I personally experienced this in TWI through the tithing teaching when I questioned them up and down on it, they were unmovable, and ready to defend the VPW narrative to the end.
I really and truly wish I can say they wanted us to read, study and interpret the bible for ourselves but my experience differs.
And don't think for a minute that the Catholic Church doesn't do likewise. How long do you think I'd last there if I preach PFAL there? LOL x 2 ...
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JoyfulSoul
I just read this. All true. All true. Except, does that reflect the Way today? If so, they don't want me there, and I wouldn't want to be there.
All love. Im not on a mission to mess with anything they are doing. Just, as I said, I stopped in to remember, and to feast on the beauty of the grounds. Serendipity, I met some really friendly and happy people. I talked to an old acquaintance from decades ago who had been a very emotionally well-adjusted individual- just nice and happy at the core.
I do receive them as brothers and a sister in Christ. If like to be friends. I could do without any stage performances I've seen but I think talking would be both edifying and healing.
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oldiesman
Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to (softly) challenge them on belief(s) you hold that challenges their narrative. LOL...
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JoyfulSoul
I want to be friends with them. I want to realize our brother and sisterhood. It doesn't matter to me if they have some different beliefs. That's been the story of the past 40 years.
The only issue is whether they will accept me. I'm not exactly virgin clay. I'm not an empty vessel to be filled.
Now, here's a crazy thought. What if, down the road, some people currently with the Way came on this board wanting to talk. What would that look like?
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waysider
Oops! This is the first thing that will get you in hot water. Make that boiling water. The Word takes precedence over everything... not God, not Christ, not family, not your friends. "You have no friends when it comes to The Word." (VPW). They don't come right out and say it, but, in essence, they worship The Word. "You have to put The Word above everything else." "Having done all, you just stand on The Word and don't let anyone budge you." (VPW). Oh, I could go on and on about how they exalt The Word (at, least, their interpretation of it) above all else, but I probably shouldn't, I have to go shopping for dental floss today..
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Nathan_Jr
“The Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word.” -vpw
Nothing. But. The Word. NOTHING.
So, what is the Word? It’s whatever victor paul wierwille says it is. I was “taught” victor did all the “research” so I wouldn’t have to - oh, how he toiled 18hrs/day for years. Such selfless sacrifice on his part, I was “taught.” I should be so grateful.
Oldies is right. It’s like any other religion. (TWI is indeed religion, no matter what they claim.) They are dogmatic, yet call themselves a “research ministry.” This is one of many contradictions illustrating their mathematic inexactness and scientific imprecision.
No doubt they are nice. Super nice, I bet. Friendly, I’m sure. Be friends. Go to their church (yes, it’s a church), fellowship with them. Whatever.
If anyone in TWI came on this board wanting to talk, I suspect they would be welcome. Wierwille apologists have always been welcome and free to post inexhaustible platitudes. Some here might have questions for them. I know I do.
Edited by Nathan_JrGloves
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modcat5
Fairly certain I am the only moderator whose identity is known and who visits all the time. When I am not modcat5, I am Raf.
You can feel free to contact me on either profile. I give $15 a month to GSC and I take nothing.
Pawtucket runs the place. I don't think his ID is secret but I also don't think he publicizes it, so not posting it here.
The other mods are Modgellan and ModSerling, each of whom has chosen to remain anonymous.
Lots of people here are Christians. Lots of people are not. Oldiesman, WordWolf, Allan are believers, though they probably disagree with each other on an issue or two. Chasity, StayedTooLong and I (Raf) are atheist. We try (and often fail) to confine our skepticism to the Atheism subforum in Matters of Faith.
So here's the deal: THIS forum is ABOUT THE WAY. So I was hoping we could get some clarity here:
If you would like to talk about what's going on at TWI TODAY, what they're teaching, how they are conducting themselves, how they are coming to terms with their past and recruiting for the future, awesome. As long as you're standing by what you "report" back to the group.
If you would like to discuss the MERITS of their doctrines, we have a whole "Matters of Faith" section for that.
I am very interested in seeing what TWI is up to, what they're charging for their classes, what The Rock is like, etc.
Anyway, you do not have to GIVE to participate in GSC, but I'm not gonna lie: we appreciate every dime.
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Charity
I was never personally involved with IHOPKC. I learned of Bickle when a couple of his books were part of a Vineyard church library I was overseeing. If you type "bickle" in the search box above, you will see my posts about them. If you want to follow up on any of them, you can do it through those threads.
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JoyfulSoul
Modcat5,
It makes me wonder how tightly the lines are drawn.
I think this is the only currently active thread and and I haven't posted to any others. This is the third time the boundaries have been laid out for me (second by a mod).
Are you saying the forum is not about people who have been involved with the Way? Just, the Way itself.
I find it very useful learning about the spiritual life of the person I'm talking to. Everyone has had their experiences with the Way and this one came away and became a Catholic. Another came away and sometimes listens to LCM- just, imagine that!? Somebody has been deeply traumatized by his experiences. And, atheists.
Of course I have shared a lot about my Journey, my faith and ministries I've been associated with. Are you saying Im pushing some kind of limit? As far as I know I'm the only one interested in reaching out to them and the truth is, how much a class costs isn't something I've even thought about.
I'm not into rocking boats. I just don't know how strict you are about confining the subject matter.
Comparing the lives of VPW and Lonnie Frisbee, for instance, to me that's very interesting. OTOH, you could say that's not about the Way. I just don't know because this freewheeling exchange has been therapeutic for me. I'm not really in need of anything, however.
There's Charity, now. Comparing IHOPKC and The Way, is that out of bounds?
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JoyfulSoul
See, Vineyard librarian. Now, that's the kind of thing I find interesting. I'd love to hear this story. That's not specifically about The Way, however. Out of bounds?
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Joe Maslow
For those of you asking.
The Way is no longer supporting "tithing", in their STS they talk about "GIVE" and in the last fellowship I participated I was encourage to give freely. So they are not longer asking for 15% even for graduates of the advanced class ( I was)
The Way has changed in the recent years? For sure, ¿ real changes? Not at all. TWI is bringing back the "good old years", uploading VPW teachings on their Youtube Channel, offering basically the same content. And hiding some of their core teachings in order to look more appealing to a younger crowd.
Good people in TWI? For sure, you can find good people everywhere.
You'll receive a lot of love in the beginning (Love-bombing uhh) ; as long as you don't commit to the ministry, they won't ask much of you. When you become deeply involved with TWI, the hell and abuse begin. And even though LCM's abusive tactics are no longer as prevalent, the emotional and psychological manipulation persists. I left TWI a little over two years ago.
If you have any question about current TWI, just ask.
Have a good day!
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