twi's error and tithing.

[WordWolf]

It's interesting to note how fast pfal does a 180 when it comes to tithing. 

Christians are not under The Law, we are under Grace.  All our rules come from Pentecost and afterwards...... except for tithing.

The rules quoted are all from The Law, like in Malachi.

One example is quoted that Abraham gave a donation- with nothing saying it was required or even expected. He chose to give it, and he gave it.  That's not proof nor an argument for tithing.  

The only reference in the New Testament?  II Corinthians 9:7.   In the KJV,  it reads:

⁷ Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

 

(For the curious, the NASB reads  "⁷ Each one must do just as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." )

 

vpw used this verse to say that we were required to give 10%- or more!  to "God"- and both he and twi push for twi to be the sole source to receive all that money.

He made no effort to distinguish it from the previous requirement- he called it "tithe"- same as before- which means "tenth." 

But even the verse he quotes says we don't have to tithe!  

If we are REQUIRED to give, the giving is "OF NECESSITY".  ("Under compulsion.")

twi keeps track of their members/"followers" and their tithes/money given under compulsion.  Try giving less than 10% and see how long you go before someone starts giving you static. 

So, after Pentecost, no donations are REQUIRED.  In Acts, there were donations requested at specific times for specific needs at that time.

 

In twi, that's not the final word on the subject.

Suppose you even give 10%.  That's not enough. 

Now you have to "abundantly share." 

Those are donations above the MANDATORY 10%. 

The verses for this....no verses.  "Well, under The Law, they gave 10%, we should do more!" 

 

Wait!

In twi, that's STILL not the final word on the subject.

Outside of vpw, twi, and possibly another group that got this from them, nobody has the sheer nerve to pull this one.

"Plurality giving."

In twi,  that's a thing. It means you sit down, figure out how much you make, calculate how much you need to get by, and subtract that amount from the amount you made.  Then you take EVERYTHING ELSE AND HAND IT OVER TO TWI!

Everywhere else, you can take anything left and invest it, put it towards retirement, save it for emergencies, use it to buy something nice, etc.

That's not recommended anywhere in the Bible.

 

People wondering what difference it makes should learn some of the practical differences it makes.  People in twi are NOT SUPPOSED to save for retirement, invest, etc. They're supposed to hand twi over all that money.   So, when the person gets an emergency, does twi ever donate back a little of that money to compensate! No way! They'll pray for you, but the money is in their hands and not going back.    In twi, you're supposed to distance yourself from family members who are not in twi.....

UNTIL YOU NEED SOMETHING FROM THEM.

THEN you go to them for help to cover for the absence of the money you handed over to twi!

 

If you're in twi, you may HEAR that you're "under Grace", but in many ways, you are NOT treated that way, and that starts with handing over your money.

Lots of people remember that "Christians Should Be Prosperous" (vpw's book that argues you're supposed to hand over 10%)  was required with pfal. Most of us were given a homework assignment right at the beginning of the class, to read it.   As soon as we got the book, we were required to read it. All the pfal material to cover- but the "give us your money" stuff jumped to the front of the queue. 

 

 

[Rocky]

A very insightful post that demarcates the difference between what "the Word" says and the organizational practices, which is the STORY of how the Word is actually communicated by way of do as I say, not as I do.

 

[Nathan_Jr]

WordWolf:

twi keeps track of their members/"followers" and their tithes/money given under compulsion.  Try giving less than 10% and see how long you go before someone starts giving you static. 

 

Ha!

My fellowship commander was faithful to this practice, even though he renounced TWI for deviating from "the original" - the word as it was given to THE Man of God, victor p wierwille. (Bless his heart.)

It had been said that my fellowship commander and his wife lived near the poverty line. They themselves never admitted this. Regardless, I always contributed generously to any social event at their house. (This is just my nature with anyone, and I was ridiculed for it.) If I asked what I could bring, they would answer, and I would provide plus plus - happily, it's just how I do it. Over time, with increasing frequency, I took on the role of host - cooking, cleaning, making cocktails, store runs - in THEIR house. (Later I suspected I was manipulated into this because of my generous nature.)

Now, these parties were by invitation, but they were not optional. If they said what they needed or wanted, I enthusiastically fulfilled the request. And they were grateful, but not enthusiastically grateful. When it came to giving at fellowship, boy, oh, boy!

I usually gave whatever cash I had on me, which wasn't much because who carries cash anymore. However, if I had 3 twenties, a fiver and three ones, I would only throw $8 in the horn. (If I had $60 on me, that money was likely already allocated for another purpose.)

Somehow he knew. Probably because my then wife told him. Or maybe he knew exactly what to expect every week from the other regular attendees, as they always gave the same amount. Likely both are true. He never said anything to me directly, but the subsequent daily emails to "the family" and the next week's fellowship "teaching" were all about tithing, abundant sharing and II Corinthians 9:7. 

The passive-aggressive message to me was clear: I was not a cheerful giver, and God does not love that.

Edited Saturday at 10:54 PM by Nathan_Jr

[Twinky]

TWI's attitude to giving is so against what the Bible teaches and the way God operates that it is unrecognisable. And what they teach about tithing isn't recognisable either.  To whom were the tithes given, tithes of what, where to be presented, and when.  And why (that's a big one, and not one that TWI has ever touched on) (it's not what you might think).

You can research it for yourself.  

It is absolutely wrong to be checking up on people's incomes to make sure they tithed/donated any money.  It's between individuals and God.

Here are the words of Jesus (yes, I know in the gospels, and only for our learning, hahahaha, as not part of the NT according to TWI) as recorded in Mt 6:

when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret.

Now just how private, how secret, is your giving supposed to be, if (hyperbolically) your left hand doesn't know what your right hand is doing?  Your left hand can't know, but your twig leader can?  Huh???

We were badly taught.  But I do believe that God respects those who did give (even if from dishonest teaching).

[Raf]

When we were in our teens, WordWolf once had a bunch of notes from which I used to study, and one of them was "Things in Which Christians Are to Abound," or something close to that. The list was believing, the Word, knowledge, diligence, love and grace. It was drawn from II Corinthians 8:7. 

It took me years to realize what II Corinthians 8 was doing. To really grasp it, you HAVE to let go of the tithe. Only then does the section make sense. A group of Christians was exceedingly generous to Paul, and he was using that group as an example to the Corinthians for how to approach giving. Their gift was both generous and entirely voluntary. The percentage was not discussed. 

And then v. 7 makes total sense. As you abound in one thing, abound in the other. A standard is being set. As you about in A, abound in F. As you abound in B, abound in F. As you abound in C, abound in F.

It's not just a list of things in which we are to abound. It is a standard that is supposed to underscore our motivation to give.

You call yourself a Christian who believes? Give accordingly! You call yourself a speaker of the Word? Give accordingly! You call yourself knowledgeable of the Word? GIve accordingly. You call yourself committed to the spread of the Word? Give accordingly. You say you love? Give accordingly.

Our giving, according to the Bible, is to be motivated by these attributes. Not a percentage. A reflection of your commitment, of your dedication, of your seriousness about this whole Christian thing.

The tithe is not a minimum or a maximum. It's not even a reference point.

Abraham tithed ONE TIME, best as we can tell from scripture. No one told him to do it. No one asked him to do it. He wasn't setting a pattern. If he was, the pattern was this: YOU choose when to give. YOU choose who receives it. YOU choose how much. 

There is no place in scripture where ALL believers are instructed to tithe. It is simply NOT the big deal churches make it out to be.

I've long forgotten my deep dive into tithing. But I do remember this much: believers should give, and give generously. NO ONE defines "generously" but you. Just don't be a hypocrite about it. When something's important to you, you invest in it.

 

[Rocky]

IOW, if the organization badgers you about how much you need to give them, it's a cult. 

BTW, Mormon churches do that too.

[Charity]

3 hours ago, Raf said:

When we were in our teens, WordWolf once had a bunch of notes from which I used to study, and one of them was "Things in Which Christians Are to Abound," or something close to that. The list was believing, the Word, knowledge, diligence, love and grace. It was drawn from II Corinthians 8:7. 

It took me years to realize what II Corinthians 8 was doing. To really grasp it, you HAVE to let go of the tithe. Only then does the section make sense. A group of Christians was exceedingly generous to Paul, and he was using that group as an example to the Corinthians for how to approach giving. Their gift was both generous and entirely voluntary. The percentage was not discussed. 

And then v. 7 makes total sense. As you abound in one thing, abound in the other. A standard is being set. As you about in A, abound in F. As you abound in B, abound in F. As you abound in C, abound in F.

It's not just a list of things in which we are to abound. It is a standard that is supposed to underscore our motivation to give.

You call yourself a Christian who believes? Give accordingly! You call yourself a speaker of the Word? Give accordingly! You call yourself knowledgeable of the Word? GIve accordingly. You call yourself committed to the spread of the Word? Give accordingly. You say you love? Give accordingly.

Our giving, according to the Bible, is to be motivated by these attributes. Not a percentage. A reflection of your commitment, of your dedication, of your seriousness about this whole Christian thing.

The tithe is not a minimum or a maximum. It's not even a reference point.

Abraham tithed ONE TIME, best as we can tell from scripture. No one told him to do it. No one asked him to do it. He wasn't setting a pattern. If he was, the pattern was this: YOU choose when to give. YOU choose who receives it. YOU choose how much. 

There is no place in scripture where ALL believers are instructed to tithe. It is simply NOT the big deal churches make it out to be.

I've long forgotten my deep dive into tithing. But I do remember this much: believers should give, and give generously. NO ONE defines "generously" but you. Just don't be a hypocrite about it. When something's important to you, you invest in it.

 

The reason for this collection in 2 Corinthians 8 is given in Romans 15.

25 but now, I am going to Jerusalem, serving the saints. 26 For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem. 27 For they were pleased to do so, and they are indebted to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in their spiritual things, they are indebted to do them a service also in material things.

How does this compare to what twi does with their collections from the saints?

[Raf]

Good point. I delved into what I called "God's standard for giving," but I never got to the part of God's standard for getting. What to do with money collected from the church would make a great Doctrinal thread.

[waysider]

Three ministers were discussing how they used the weekly offering:

Rev#1: I draw a big circle on the floor and toss the money high into the air. Whatever lands inside the circle, I give to the Lord. Whatever lands outside is my salary.

Rev#2: I draw a big circle on the floor and toss the money high into the air. Whatever lands outside the circle, I give to the Lord. Whatever lands inside is my salary.

Rev#3: I draw a big circle on the floor and toss the money high into the air. If the Lord wants any of it He can grab it while it's up there.