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TWI 1, 2 and 3 - from Waydale

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TWI1, TWI2, TWI3 -- From Waydale

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engine

Global user

(8/31/00 1:57:08 pm)

Reply TWI I, II, III

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Been thinking about what David Anderson said in another thread that to him there seems to be three twi's and not two.

I. 1973 and before

II. 1974 to circa 1987

III. 1987 and after

I agree.

I. VPW taught class live, Way East, Way West, no control, much personal contact, first and second corps, money stays local, slow growth, oodles of love and miracles.

II. Video class, contact w/ vpw and others limited, Way Tree set in place, begin acquiring properties, money goes to HQ, teeth in the ministry (forgot about that one), salesmanship used more, rapid growth, some miracles. (I saw them drop off).

III. Old guard dead, no class, money demanded, high pressure, mental and emotional abuse, no growth (downsizing).

Maybe it could be Jesus Christ and God and love at the center, less Jesus and God and love and more VPW and teeth, no Jesus and God and love.

I suppose the traits of each could be many, but I agree with Dave on this, and Dave- I would really not have been aware of this if not for all of your previous posts on the making of the class and your heart and thinking of it way back when.

Rob

David A Anderson

Global user

(1/19/00 9:52:02 am)

Reply Re: TWI I, II, III

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Rob: Thanks for starting this thread. It seems that there is a common perception that twi really took off because of the hippies back in the late 60's, but I think that perception is largely distorted.

No doubt Steve Heefner and his long time friend, Jimmy Doop, were a most significant influence during that time, but even they were born and raised in Iowa and not San Francisco.

I haven't seen Karl's book yet, but it sounds like his take on the matter largely reflects the hippie-prime-mover position. Suffice it to say that both Steve and Jimmy left twi in '72- '73. Jimmy evidently returned numerous times but Steve never did.

But let me talk about some other folks that left during that time period, who were victimized by the corporate take over of twi, who, to the best of my knowledge had little, if anything, to do with the hippie movement. I'll stick with first names since some would probably not want to be associated even with this forum.

I say victimized not because of all the money they gave to twi, or sent in to HQ from the donations they received from others as the work they did prospered, but rather because they were betrayed in the very idea of what they thought twi was all about. The list is by no means exhaustive, but every one of them, if their motive be measured, would come down on the side of love, not money.

The work Bill did here in the Cleveland area is still well known, and as recently as the week before Christmas, when richnchrispy came to Cleveland and a bunch of us WayDalers met, almost everybody knew him and had worked with him as the Cleveland "wave" of the late '60's rippled across the world.

Stephen, in the Bronx, is another one who started a work every bit as significant as that of those in other parts of the country. He was a cab driver in NYC. I forget now the name of the fellow that could have taken over where Stephen left off, but he left when Stephen did and so an absolute jerk was appointed branch leader- but that's another story.

Tim started the work in North Carolina at ECU and many folks came out of there who stayed with twi quite a long time- none of them hippies at all.

And Ralph D can tell you about the principal characters in Long Island at the time, although I don't know much about about who left when in that area.

Then there was John up in northern Illinois, and Paul down in Pensicola, and some folks in New Lyme, Ohio, and numerous folks in Dayton, and Columbus, and Xenia, some of whom left twi before I even got there but who introduced many people to twi nevertheless.

Then there were still others that greatly impressed me when I first arrived on the scene but were largely a mystery to me as to why they bailed. Jack from Covington, Jim from Springfield, Rick from Swanton. Don't know how far back they went with VPW, but no doubt they were instrumental in many ways in getting twi off the ground, and no doubt are still enjoying the liberty wherewith Christ has set them free rather than being entangled with the yoke of bondage.

Sorry Rongene for this being so long. If I knew how to say things with more economy of words, I would certainly do so.

engine

Global user

(1/19/00 10:13:00 am)

Reply Re: TWI I, II, III

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Dave,

Write MORE. Forget economy of words!

See? I know nothing prior to Groovy Christians from Rye. Yeh, I don't know about all the groundwork others put in for years before that happened. But now that I think about it, that HAD to be done.

My era was '74 to '86. And some here consider me to be an oldtimer from the good old days.

Betrayal in what way- VPW showed his true Germanic colors?? Take control and be the Boss? Changed the gameplan in midstream? Secret meetings with Ermal and Uncle Harry?

Now, if Del Duncan would get in here, or Doop, or Heefner it would be a real history lesson.

Please, continue....

Rob

Orange Cat

Global user

(1/19/00 1:17:56 pm)

Reply

Re: TWI I, II, III

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Rob - you mean you haven't read Karl's book? He really does a super job of chronicaling the whole shebang, from VP in high school right up to the final she he banged or rather POP.

Pre-Doop, post Doop. Del is interviewed and contributed quite a bit. The hostile take over of the Way West and East.

He even quotes some guy named Anderson - oh and Peter Wade.

Orange Cat

Maure

Global user

(1/19/00 1:39:41 pm)

Reply

Re: TWI I, II, III

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So when I entered in 1982 we were already on a downward spiral--explains much-- for some reason I thought it started about 1983 and could never figure out how I didn't notice--not that that's an excuse mind you--but helps to know it was corrupt when I entered and not that I was totally asleep instead of 75% asleep!

Mo

engine

Global user

(1/19/00 1:41:09 pm)

Reply Re: TWI I, II, III

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Yeh, OC, I did. And I could read another one.

But Dave has information and background not in Karl's book....yet. Bet Karl is working on it though!

As I recall, Karl clearly hit on the Groovy Christian thing and Way East/West, but I don't recall any info on what was happening at NK then and prior to that, or of people like Dave. Maybe I read that part too fast- finished it in 3 days.

The work that preceded all that was not in there, and it cetainly ain't in Elena's book as Dave told us some time ago, nor did she cover the early people who had already left prior to Dave or Del, or made their departure about that time after they had "had enough." That's what I wanted to know more about.

I don't know if I'm clear or not, but I'm trying real hard.

Maybe the info. just ain't there. Maybe there is no more to know, really.

Robino

evanpyle

Global user

(1/19/00 1:42:46 pm)

Reply Re: TWI I, II, III

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I din't get "in" until mid '70. Incidentally, I was with Stefan of Bronx (you know, like Joan of Arc)that night I first spoke in tongues. What a great guy. I heard about what went down with him. I consider it God's hand...got him out early.

Back to topic: Even at that late date, I imagine there were far fewer than 1000 anywhere that anything to do with twi. Really big growth didn't happen till 70, 71. And the big growth was in the Bay Area, Westchester/Long Island, and Wichita. I was aware of Indiana, UNC and other way 'outposts' but the numbers were insignificant. Howerever their contribution to the way leadership pool was significant.

VP treated Donnie Fugit like an independent-but-affiliated ministry until Summer School 70. Then Donnie returned from hq wearing a suit (brown velvet with wide lapels!) carrying a briefcase (?) and acting different. He quit teaching barefoot, was more authoritative, quit singinghis songs with the congregation and started singing from Sing Along the Way.

It's easy for me to view these as good old days. BUT the carnality (sexual and otherwise) among the Wichita group was big already. Why? Bad doctrine, from the start. Produced excitement, but bad fruit.

The doctrinal system was always hopelessly corrupt. To me that makes them all the same, just different degrees of evil in treating people

snufkin

Global user

(1/19/00 7:37:21 pm)

Reply Re: TWI I, II, III

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I got involved in the Way at ECU in 73. I don't know what you mean by hippies but I don't think that term really applies much after the mid to late 1960s. But there was a decidedly young, cool flavor to the Way in those days. Things were fairly loose in NC at the time, but began to get more and more regulated. I think David is basically right about the way things changed, but I think the impact of the changes trickled out to the outlying areas gradually. There was still lots of heart and fun at first. But I can remember getting some very strong pressure from Connie Emerson (Panarello), among others, about what I should do with my life and why. Not a pleasant experience. There was a big sex scandal there at the time that none of us could understand. We thought it was an isolated incident because it was "handled" and hushed up. I always thought that the leader involved was reproved and removed and repented. Now I know that his mistake was letting the other believers find out about it. Thanks David for your interesting perspective on the change in TWI.

Edited by snufkin at: 1/19/00 7:37:21 pm

pawtucket

Global user

(1/19/00 7:46:19 pm)

Reply Re: TWI I, II, III

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I agree that there were three distinct dynasties in twi. For labeling purposes though, this means that we would have to now label twi2 - twi3 and twi - twi2.

Let's just relabel the first one -- twibc(Before Craig) or twilive or pretwi or twibw(Black&White)

Michael

Label Maker Operator

diazbro

Global user

(1/19/00 8:20:08 pm)

Reply Re: TWI I, II, III

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I'm in favor of the "hippy" viewpoint though

as someone pointed out - that term didn't really

apply by the mid to late 70s. But we aren't

really cultural anthropologists here (we'll I'm not) so its not that important (to me anyway) if the term is correctly applied or not.

Whatever it was I do know that most

of the Way folk I encountered at the time

were very laid back, many smoked pot, and even more had checked out other churches that could easily be characterized as cults. And , ahem, there was a fair amount of hanky-panky. This was all fine by me as I was into all that anyway !

You can plant whatever label you'd like on this behavior but I saw it in other so called "Jesus Freak" organizations with distinct roots in the sixties. And of course many followers of such groups were from the "hippy mold". (Its not such a bad thing ya know). This certainly doesn't imply that everyone involved with TW during mid 70s or so was still on a 60s trip. But many were.

Amie Friend

Global user

(1/19/00 8:39:07 pm)

Reply

Re: TWI I, II, III

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I basically agree with one exception. TWI III should begin in 1986 - after POP was read to the whole Corps, not in 1987. Or, you can even add a TWI IV after Craiggy came out of the "fog" -- that's when it REALLY got awful. But that's a whole 'nother topic.

BTW -- what was that FOG all about? I heard those Galatians tapes and never did figure out what the heck his "fog" was. Was he on drugs or sumptin'? That's another thread I guess.

Amie

Sudo

Global user

(1/19/00 9:03:38 pm)

Reply

ECU

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Snufkin,

Hey! Did you know a Carol Saunders at ECU? She was there about the same time you were. If so e-mail me OK? Thanks!: dbdbdb@prodigy.net

sudo

Orange Cat

Global user

(1/19/00 9:04:49 pm)

Reply

Re: TWI I, II, III

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how's this for fog?

fog=focused on @#%$

'fraid of @#%$

f'ed over greatly

Orange Cat

David A Anderson

Global user

(1/19/00 10:19:32 pm)

Reply Re: TWI I, II, III

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Pawtucket: Sorry about the confusion. Perhaps like the first corp, which was known as the Zero Corp, and nobody talked about them any more, a more appropriate name for pre '73 could be twi0. Sure would hate to be the author of confusion here!

Evan: My estimation of you went up about 1000% after reading that you knew Stefan (sorry for misspellng his name). But I think you place way to much emphasis on a presumed "doctrinal system" when in fact there was no such doctrinal system, at least during my tenure- unless you'd like to take the position that everyone has a doctrinal system unique to themselves, no matter how unsystematic it may be.

I understand that you are a preacher these days with a church and so that fact may influence your selection of words. I have no church nor following nor financial support group, which no doubt, affects my choice of words. They are merely my own- with no apologies, and no need to be afraid of offending anyone for fear of the collection plate suffering.

But this brings me to the center of the argument over the goodness or badness of twi. Seems you are arguing over whether a group was good or bad and I could care less about groups. I don't think Jesus Christ ever came to save groups or to make groupies out of people.

The folks I mentioned in my post above never gave me the impression that they were after "leadership positions" within a group. They just did what they did, did it without ulterior motive, and many people were attracted to what they had to say and what they recommended as a result.

I agree that there probably weren't a thousand people that VPW taught his class to prior to the film in '68, but I could be wrong here. I know he did a class in the early '60's in Xenia, Ohio with 50 preachers in it. When he first told me that I could readily understand what a bear of a class that must have been! Imagine 50 Evan Pyle's and John B's in one class! But folks will have to show up here that predated me, to tell more about that one.

What each of them did with the information, how they lived subsequently, how many lives they blessed (or cursed), is not known to me, or probably anybody else for that matter. But that is exactly the point. twi was a teaching ministry of a guy who had a great class, we helped him find people, and he taught it. Simple, very simple.

But I do know that one of these pastors left his pastorate but still thought well enough of VPW to still lend his name to twi, if nothing else, as a trustee of The Way West. I stayed with he and his family back in '68 and they were a delightful family. When Steve Heefner left, VPW became the second trustee and from there is was an easy matter to vote out Jimmy Doop.

My point here is that regardless of where those 50 preachers went or what they did, they had the benifit of PFAL- as you do. You may dismiss it as worthless now but no doubt you will find lots of people on this forum that disagree with you- me for one.

And although I don't know many details at all, there evidently was as big a move in the early '60's with adults as there was in middle '60's with the youth. No doubt the one with adults basically fizzled because they wanted no part of a dictitorial authority structure. I think VPW was a fine teacher, but I'd never vote for him for dictator!

I will agree with you as regards the various departures from twi being a blessing from God, even though outrageous behaviour and twi decisions and policy may have been the apparent cause. It is much easier being comfortably within a group than it is to walk by the spirit of God with no support group at all. At least from a worldly point of view it is. But consider our brother Paul.

And where the balance is here, I have no idea- although I have thought about it for a very long time and even wrote a book on the subject- a book that nobody who had a substantial following could probably ever have risked writing and not lost their job or respect within their sphere of influence. But I knowat least a few that are in those kinds of positions that have read it and appreciated it.

In fact, that reminds me of the last time I was at Stefan's home. I mentioned that schedules, even Bible study on Wednesday evening, had the tendency to get in the way of the walk by the spirit, and suggested that Jesus Christ might just have something different for them to do on any given Wednesday night.

But this was near the very end before Stefan left, (and he didn't leave with any demonstation or objection of any kind but simply notified twi that he had condluded that God had something different in mind for him). But I remember the blank expressions on some of the faces at the meeting, who were incrudulous that I would suggest that God might have something he wanted done more than their going to Bible study that night or the next Wednesday.

And so the main difference to me in regards to twi0 and twi1 was that in twi0 the power of the group was not given much credibility at all, but rather the power of the individual who walked by the spirit of God. No doubt many exceptions to this perception existed, but I never found such people to be very effective at all in recommending PFAL to anyone.

In deference to Karl and his book, we did discuss pre hippie days in our emails, but he was concerned that this might be a whole nother subject that would make the book impossibly long.

And I rather think he was more interested in numbers as Evan appears to be. After all, one individual doesn't get to be known as a cult, and my sense is that in twi0 there was precious little to be found in the area of cultlike behavior- any more than one could find in any neighborhood or local church.

And so it appears to me that the devil has a rather simple approach if someone has anything signifficant to offer.

Step 1 is to try to discredit the work.

If this doesn't succeed, then Step 2 is to try to discredit the man.

And if this doesn't work all that well, Step 3 is to flood the guy with money- which almost certainly will work!

Seems to me it was Step 3 that got Wierwille. God, I just have to laugh at Ralph D's report about the gold stashes. And what's really funny, is that, knowing Wierwille, the amount stashed in the various limbs must have been only the tip of the iceburg.

I can't imagine him betting the farm, even on people he trained- so very many had bailed on him over the years that he would have really been nuts to think he'd become so effective in his control that it wouldn't happen again and again. And somehow, when all those that left before bailed, VPW always managed to kept the money. Looks like he did with Ralph D as well! But oh that gambling in Las Vegas, that must have really ripped him up!

Litwin

Global user

(1/20/00 12:33:36 am)

Reply The Balence

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Hi David - regards your statement, "It is much easier being comfortably within a group than it is to walk by the spirit of God with no support group at all. At least from a worldly point of view it is. But consider our brother Paul.

And where the balance is here, I have no idea".

Just a thoughtful comment, nothing exhaustive - I was one of the Long Island crowd - got involved in 2/71. Steve (correct spelling for this Steve)was the fellowship leader (first fellowship on the Island) and then the branch leader. I became a fellowship leader & when I did I always did whatever he said I should - always. And the reason I always did what he said I should is because he was always right - *always*. Some from that time may disagree, & that's OK, but that is why I did what he said. We had signs, miracles, and wonders happening with increasing frequency & intense spiritual confrontations going on continually - he knew a lot more about how to do& he was just always right.

I remember the first time hw told me to do something & I thought spiritually that he was wrong about something he told me I should do with my fellowship. He told me what - I told him I thought he was wrong - he told me why he thought he was right - I told him why I thought I was right - and he told me that he haad told me what he thought I should do & now I could go do whatever I thought I should - there was no authoritarian anything about it.

But it just seems to me that if people walk with God there doesn't have to be a balance between walking alone by the spirit or walking within a group.

I had certain people I talked to about certain things - none of this you have to talk to your twig coordinator stuff. Whenever there was a need *somebody* was there to fill it. We had what I always thought of as "family lines of ministering" that developed, but nothing was set.

I remember people coming into our area telling us our area was a confused mess because we weren't following the way tree. But we knew exactly what we were doing spiritually. My fellowship grew into over 30 people in a very short time & I could basically tell you any time of day or night where they were or at least how they were doing. It was a God thing - it was *absorbing*. It was not a question of balance; God was doing it. You just knew what was happening spiritually. OF course you could always refer to the weekly schedule everyone was required to submit to you - NOT! Sheeesh.

Sorry, this was only supposed to be a comment.

Growing again,

Tom

engine

Global user

(5/3/00 5:37:21 pm)

Reply PreTwiI

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Evan: another pocket then was Morgantown, WV at WVU. That was my intro to it during the summer of '74. The most well known name out of there was Chip Stansbury- a friend of mine.

Litwin- yeh, even I got to clearly see the supposed disorganization of a twig, but God was handling it all and it was so cool. Organized chaos- wonderful. Let the devil try and keep up with THAT! We went from 10 to about 40 or 50 in one brief summer.

Dave: re Karl's book- Ok, Pretree was discussed. Makes sense that he would omit that for a time since the main concern of that book is the "cult" status it eventually attained and how destroys peoples lives now.

I am very happy with all these comments- I find it all really interesting.

I guess this particular dynasty could be called pretwi or pretree. I kind favor pretree- sets the time frame fairly clearly and gives one of the reasons the thing was so beautifully out of control, i.e., run by God, IMO.

And Dave, I love the comment about VPW pulling in the gold after the gambling loss in Las Vegas came to light. What a hoot.

Robinowski

Edited by engine at: 5/3/00 5:37:21 pm

Sunesis

Local user

(1/20/00 9:34:09 am)

Reply TWI I, II, III

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I got into the Way in 1970 - I was a part of the groovy christians of Rye. I was even there when the photographer was taking pictures of us for the famous Life Magazine article.

New York was hit very hard by the "hippie" movement, everyone did drugs and it astonished me to see the top stoners now turned on to Jesus and going to twig.

Steve and Sandy Heefner were wonderful people - I believe they were pretty much responsible for the massive increase (well, I know God was, but they surely had a true evangelistic minstry). On our off time, we'd go to their house after school and hang out. I believe they turned many lives around. As someone else put it, it was very uncontrolled, sometimes chaotic and messy, but it worked. We had no rules. I first went to fellowship at Tim Bishop's house in Rye, where I had gone to church as a child (his father was a minister and the church was next to the house).

The Heefners were such dynamic teachers of the Word, we couldn't wait to go to fellowship and hear what would be taught next. I have never since seen a movement of God like it in my lifetime. I do believe it was a true movement, in that so many kids got born again. God at time used TWI becuase most of us would never even consider going to a church. He used what was available.

But I remember Dr. came to visit twice and within a year things really started to change - more structure, etc. I eventually drifted away. The "old" ministry as I had know it was gone by '71. But, by a fluke I got back in again when I had moved to the midwest and some people from Rye who were WOW came to my city and I ran into them. It was so great to see familiar faces.

Anyway, I think for those of us oldtimer "groovy Christians of Rye" the New York hippie culture had a huge influence on the growth of TWI.

Rafael Olmeda

Global user

(1/20/00 9:36:03 am)

Reply When did TWI III begin?

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Some say 1986 - when POP debuted.

Some say 1987 - when the exodus began in earnest.

I say 1989. The period from 1986 until 1989 was transitional, a massive effort to keep TWI2 intact. But it was 1989 when Johnny Townsend and Ricardo Caballero were dismissed from the BOT, clergy were forced to choose between LCM and CC@#%$, and masses upon masses of followers abandoned ship. The firing of Townsend and Caballero, in my opinion, is as clear a line of demarcation between TWI2 and TWI3 as you're going to get.

LizzieBean

Global user

(1/20/00 9:59:35 am)

Reply Re: When did TWI III begin?

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I very much agree that TWI had three phases. I suppose I got involved during the second phase, (mid-70's) but because I was in the UK, things were still very personal. We had no corps until 1978 or thereabouts. When VPW visited, many of us got to know him personally, particularly those of in the music group in England. The phases were slightly different in the UK. Since CG was overseeing Europe since about 1982, there were no big differences when POP was read in 1985. The European Corps was disintegrated in the late 80's. Then JAL's tapes got circulated and that started a mass exodus. Not long after that, CG himself up and left, and the entire ministry crumbled. There is no twi now in the UK!

evanpyle

Global user

(1/20/00 11:39:39 am)

Reply Re: When did TWI III begin?

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Lizzie, how lucky can you get?

For all practical purposes the same could be said in the US.....Except!

Those who still have faily members, ex spouses, friends, etc still in. These folks still need our prayers.

*sigh* ok David A.

I'll take your bait, though I get weary at your constant sniping.

Yes, I pastor a small congregation (actually smaller now than 2 yrs ago, but that's another amazing story). You know nothing about this. I do not have a 'following' as you put it. I do preach and minister, and I pray it is to God's glory. Is your loner walk and constant sniping against brothers in the Lord to God's glory? By the way, I provide for myself financially and I receive no compensation from the church whatsoever. I rarely even ask for reimbursement for expenses I uncur fulfilling my ministry before the lord. It is simply my joy and passion to do what I'm doing.

Shame on you.

As to your other comments re: early ministry times, I think you have much insight about how things developed. I might just add one to the "throw money at the man" to corrupt him. That would be unbridled adulation. Probably even more poisonous than the money. The adulation was full-bore already when I got involved.

Sunesis

Local user

(1/20/00 12:18:29 pm)

Reply TWI I

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Evan, you are right about the pure, unbridled adulation of VPW, even in the very early days. When we heard he was coming - you would have thought it was J.C. himself.

I was very disappointed the first time I met him in Rye and heard him teach - I was not impressed and I just didn't like the guy - something about him I didn't trust.

The second time he came, I couldn't wait to get out, I just really did not like him. Everyone told me I was having a "spiritual reaction." I think God was trying to tell me something. So I just learned to ignore him over the years because it was the Word I wanted - I thought it was the greatest thing I had ever heard - it had nothing to do with Dr. I wouldn't have cared who taught it. But I was bothered by how all the young kids, male and female adored him and Dr. never put a stop to it.

Second James

Local user

(1/20/00 12:32:47 pm)

Reply Adoration

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Evan..I must agree with you l00%..the "awe" of Wierwille was the most obvious "temptation" that I believe, any of us in his postion would have had trouble handling..then play that out with the females in awe of him & the adultry that followed....

VP always prayed the prayer of " this is my beloved son (Victor Paul) in whom I am well pleased....always got a kick out of how high he placed himself on the pedestal..despite his secret sins which were ok'd by many with the attitude of "Dr despite his sexual sins..just knew how to be a Man of God, despite his weekness"..I just never bought into it...guilt is guilt & HAS to play out & did.

As to your remark about Anderson being a loner etc...many of us have walked that wilderness walk..not that we want to, but for all the destruction & mistrust it festered...I don't think its a "good finger" to point at anyone..rather encourage the man to reach out to others ..despite where you "think" he's at..believe me God knows where he's at & that's all that matters...s

Fresh Air77

Global user

(1/20/00 12:47:23 pm)

Reply Re: Twi I, II, III, & IV

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Not trying to "muddy the waters" here, BUT I tend to see 4 phases.

Obviously, there are transitional points in each phase as something new

breaks the horizon. And, technically I would agree that the third phase

began in 1989 --- allegiance to craig, @#%$ & others slandered, move out

all "deadwood" and the twi fortress makes repairs.

Then, twi4 ---- 1997 - present

Craig is solely at helm of ship, new foundational class, Don retired in 1996,

Rosalie is key powerplayer to regimentation, Howard will soon be ousted,

Adamant as of 10/97--- Twi is IN the promised land of the prevailing word,

November WIB conference -- pictorial book release entitled "The Way

International: Where God's Word Prevails, extreme controls placed on

corps and advanced class grads re: planning, scheduling, and finances...

Those of you who saw the "early days" and all, it sure is great to hear...

I got involved in '74 and definitely stayed too long!! Oh, the stories I

could tell....but I really don't have time --- yet. Now, I'm going to put

these way mags back in the attic....but I got them out to explain my

reasoning behind phase 4.

But for the sake of simplicity, I think we should still refer to vpw's phase

as twi1 and craig's as twi2.

Maure

Global user

(1/20/00 12:48:20 pm)

Reply

Re: When did TWI III begin?

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I don't think it was a one shot deal re: when TWI2 became TWI3. In AK the end was definitely feb-june of 1988. In other states I would imagine it would depend on a) how much of what was going on was know and b) the quailty of the fellowship in the area--areas with great fellowships who were loving and supportive stuck around while while others didn't

I don't really think TWI3 got off the ground until '91 and I think TWI2 ended in '89 in between it was anarchy

Mo

Fresh Air77

Global user

(1/20/00 1:06:05 pm)

Reply Re: When did TWI III begin?

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Maure....I see your point, but for clarification I would think that most posts

here are in reference to the "head man" initiating such policies.... how it

filters down through the states and individual fellowships would be multi-

faceted.

Amie Friend

Global user

(1/20/00 1:43:06 pm)

Reply

Re: When did TWI III begin?

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Let's also remember that the distinction between TWI I and TWI II is one that has been made by the MOGFOT himself! His definition of TWI II is when the "household of The Way" "crossed over the bridge to the promised land of the Prevailing Word" (a chorus of angels singing in the background - trumpets blaring, flags flying....). I have heard HIM say that the current TWI is NOT the same ministry that VPW founded and ran. Therefore, HE has called it "The Way International, Roman Numeral 2". I guess that clears it up, eh?

Ah, the Rye days. I remember when VP came and taught to us Way kids at Rye Prez on a Saturday Night, and then was allowed to officiate at the church service on Sunday morning. A bunch of us LI kids got to stay at a mansion overnight - there was a huge party in VP's honor! Were you there Sunesis?? I seem to remember you were! I hate to mention names here, but I think the girls house we stayed at was named Heather Reynolds. Her parents were the ones that threw the party. I'd never been in a home like that before -- a lot of us poor kids from Nassau were a bit intimidated! But, what a memorable party it was!

Litwin -- I was also in Steve's branch along with Ralph and Joel and others here! What a time that was! Drop me a line.

Amie Friend

A_Friend06@hotmail.com

evanpyle

Global user

(1/20/00 1:57:27 pm)

Reply Re: an apology

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My comment about David A's loner walk was unnecessary and unkind. I'm sorry and I hope you'll forgive me, David.

evanpyle

Global user

(1/20/00 2:02:52 pm)

Reply Re: When did TWI III begin?

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Amie,

Your description of LCM NAMING it way II is amazing and funny (yes, I hear that same choir of angels singing).

And his oververbed gobbledygook catchphrases (which he has been spinning from way back) should have marked him as a kook from the beginning.

"Crossing over the bridge into the promised land of the Prevailing Word". Indeed.

Too funny.

David A Anderson

Global user

(1/20/00 2:20:24 pm)

Reply Re: Evan

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Sorry if you got the impression that my last post was "bait" for you. I believe I was addressing the focus of your previous post on numbers of people being insignificant and "doctrinal systems" being corrupt.

So thanks for clearing up the matter that you take no salary from your church, wouldn't bother me at all if you did take a salary- a workman is worthy of his hire. But if you think that a group of any size behind you is good evidence of a "ministry", consider our brother Paul.

As for the perception that I may be a loner on this thread, I am far from that! And I'm really not against groups. We all join lots of them- to go to a concert, see a movie or a football game, vote, or contribute to a magazine or go to work.

But we don't make "ministries" out of them, nor suggest that they become a ritual, to the end that some are considered "tripped out" if they don't continue to participate in the same group activity we'd like them to over and over again.

My problem with groups is to consider them in any way as evidence of spirituality, or jutification to point a bigger finger at someone than any individual posesses- the "my group is bigger than yours therefore I'm bigger than you" kind of reasoning.

And so, while the idol worship you mention in your last post is what I also saw toward the end of my tenure with twi, it makes my point that there was a significant difference that happened long about that time.

I neither saw it in the 60's, nor participated in it's promotion, nor believed it myself. I have spoken highly of many people over the years, but that does not mean that I worshipped them or that anybody would ever have suggested I was doing so- any more than my saying Larry Byrd was a great basketball player would suggest to anybody that I thought he was a god.

It is good to see folks showing up on this thread to report their findings from pre'73. I agree that there seldom is a single event that allows one to pinpoint an exact time when a dramatic change occurs. But occur they did and the single issue that caused them was man made control imposed over the walk by the spirit and individual initiative.

My only concern with twi ever was to make PFAL readily available to people. And I have yet to see here on WayDale, anyone show up to condemn the person that introduced them to PFAL.

The group, twi, is readily condemned, but even you, Evan, seem to highly respect Stefan, as do others who mention Steve Heefner, Steve Perez, and so very many others who had the heart and the desire to say to a friend or a stranger, "How about coming with me to this Bible class?" and then show up themselves, make their homes and apartments available for visits day and night, and in many other ways demonstrate that their concern was genuine.

I'm not going to be the one to suggest that any one of them had any less of a ministry than you do Evan, and I mean that as no disgrace to you whatsoever. I never even use the phrase "my ministry" as though I have something bigger than myself that I possess. It is sufficient for me that I have received the spirit which is of God, that I might know the things that are freely given of God, and be allowed to share them with others as I have opportunity.

You see Evan, I am convinced that God loves me, and it is rather immaterial to me if anyone else, or everyone else, in the world thinks he doesn't. And if waking up every morning with a genuine desire to be helpful is an insufficient reason for living, no matter how the day turns out to be, well then, too bad.

It's worked for me for all of my adult life- sort of like Thoreau's, "We need to witness our limits transgressed and some life wandering in a pasture where we've never been before, rather than spending our time atoning for past neglect, which we call doing our duty."- or something like that.

Maybe some folks on WayDale will interpret that as a call to promiscuity and every evil work, but I don't think he meant that at all. On his death bed he was asked if he'd made his peace with God and he replied, "I didn't know we ever had a quarrel!" But Thoreau is a topic for another thread about Thoreau's "Time Bomb" which lots of folks considered the '60's to be, about a hundred years after Thoreau's passing.

Orange Cat

Global user

(1/20/00 2:28:47 pm)

Reply

RyeDale

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Hey Amie - I think I came down that weekend and stayed over night at Chris G's house - at least I stayed with someone who completely ignored me even though we were in the same room. Alone. Sounds like I would have had more fun if I snuck over to where the girls were.

Orange Cat

let there be light

Global user

(1/20/00 5:19:41 pm)

Reply RE: TWI I, II, III

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David.

I would like to make a comment concerning the person you named in the Bronx named Stephan. I would like to use this to make a point. But before I do please allow me to fill you in on a small portion of my background.

I first took PFAL in March 1975 in the Bronx and it was then that I became acquainted with a person named Stephan E, who had been with the Way for some years prior to this time. Some of the people in the Bronx back then where long haired musicians including myself. We were all friends long before we ever heard of PFAL and remain friends even to this day. We played many of the clubs in the Bronx, Westchester County and Long Island and because of this exposure to young people many took the class and joined our happy family.

I was particularly close to a group with which Stephan E had taken the oversight of. Sort of like a guru, an overseer. He lived with them to provide spiritual guidance and by the way he lived off of them also. They were under his “the man of God’s” care. This group was especially popular in the above mentioned clubs and was well known my most of the Saints back then. I remember I would go up to their place and sit and watch Stephan pontificate concerning all things according to the Word. Even then with what little I knew I could tell it was all for his advantage. Others and myself being mere babes, peons, were ignored and even reproved. He was definitely formidable in the scriptures and because of that commanded great respect. However one day it all exploded in all of our faces.

This remains very vivid in my memory because it was the day he decided to take the wife of the drummer in the band. This drummer was and remains one of my best friends. No he didn’t run off with her. No he stayed right there, in all of our faces and did it like it was nothing at all. Like it was no big deal. Kind of reminds me of the “King” mentality. She was one of the singers in this group and what a voice she had! And she was bold in witnessing the Word from the stage. Many times even in the midst of some of the mob owned clubs we used to perform in, she would proclaim that Romans 10:9 and 10 message with all boldness. What powerful times that was for us all. We didn’t have any Advanced Class, WOW or Corps training as yet. We were just little old PFAL grads. We just believed the Word of God about each other and ourselves. No ego, no competition, now we were too dumb for that stuff that yet. I could on and tell story after story of all the great things God was doing back then. And continued to do even though the vain glory of someone threw a monkey wrench into the gears so to speak. As you can imagine this caused no small stir and no small division amongst the Saints who were fellowshipping in love.

The branch leader at the time was a black man named Ken B along with his lovely wife Evelyn. Some years later he was killed while he and his wife were hitchhiking on their way back to Emporia from L.E.A.D. This occurred during my first year in residence. What a sad tragedy that was.

Like I already said things were going along fine back in the Bronx. Johnny and Naomi T were the limb leaders and a wonderful person named Sunny S. was our area coordinator. She later split from Emporia after having had a disagreement with Craig M. about what I still do not know. But in my book this waoman was and is dearly missed.

I will close by saying that this blatantly selfish action by Stephan E. was so against all that we knew to be right that it affected the area for a long time.

There is a moral to this story and it is that we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God. Yes even though we may have done some wonderful things for the Lord we have all missed the mark and sinned. Just ask Karl Kahler (Carl Coller) and others I have wronged in the past because of my absolute ignorance and pride. Because of this vain glory we all will be standing on a pile of ashes after our works are tried by fire according to I Corinthians 3:13-15. I know I’ll be standing on a heap of smoldering ashes on that day. But maybe through His grace and mercy there may be some gold, silver and jewels in those piles of ashes. Nevertheless thank God that this section of scripture also states that the man himself shall be saved. Praise Him for all eternity!

Learning to tell it like it is and not to boast in anything but in Jesus Christ and Him crucified….

light

Maureen Dilley

Global user

(1/20/00 5:36:31 pm)

Reply Re: When did TWI III begin?

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And I see your point also

But this brings up another question---

Just when did LCM start initiating policy???

One of the BIG issues in AK in 1988 was that it was widely believed that LCM and the BOT had reduced Dr. to a mere figurehedd YEARS before he actually turned the ministry over to LCM.

Now it is possible that this was merely an unwillingness to believe that Dr. was a part of the corruption.

But I personally think that Dr. ost a handle on TWI long before it was known that LCM was being groomed as his successor--Any insight from those who were in in the 70's on this?

evanpyle

Global user

(1/20/00 6:10:38 pm)

Reply Re: When did TWI III begin?

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Welcome Maureen!!!

Here's my spin, for what its worth...

Yeah, vp lost the handle somewhere along the line. It was progressive, of course.

He was firmly in control in '75 when I went in residence. But the size of our corps and and the impact made that year in his new role...corps coordinator, made him a rising star. The old 'stalwarts'(J. Townsend, Cummins, etc) began to fade a bit. Same phenom happened when J Lynn did the Corps. After a while the upper ranks of twi were populated by lcm and lynn 'trainees'. Somewhere along the line, critical mass was achieved and power shifted.

Not long after i came on staff in '82, I became involved in a series of meetings on a committee that included DEW, sometimes Howard, and others. Both of them, esp. Howard, exhibited shocking disdain for vpw, even open contempt. And to a slightly lesser degree, so did Mrs. W.

VP was far out of the loop by then

Just my observations

David A Anderson

Global user

(1/21/00 4:28:59 am)

Reply Re: When did TWI III begin?

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Light: I was saddened to read your report. Evidently Stefan (or however his name is spelled) returned to twi after leaving somewhere around '72. I really find it hard to believe that he did- but very little really surprises me any more.

He's surely not the only one, if in fact we're talking about the same person, and the horror stories just continue to grow. But they tend to prove my thesis of a whole different twi festering and growing up by the time I left.

He must have left again shortly after you got into twi because by around '77 he was out in the Bay Area, where a friend of mine put him up for a short time till he could get on his feet out there. She seemed to think he was kind of arrogant too, which always puzzled me- until now.

As for the branch leader you mention, he can't be the same guy I referred to in my earlier post. Moyanahan was Limb Leader of NY at the time I was referring to. I was dating a gal from the Bronx that I'd met on a trip to the Holy Land and went to see her. Moyanahan was indignant that I would come to New York without obtaining his permission first.

I was incredulous! I mean, even the Governor of New York doesn't demand that his permission be obtained before a person can visit HIS state. But it got much worse than that after I returned and received a letter from the gal I was dating that informed me that the Branch Leader had asked her for a date, she had refused, and he had hit her. Whereupon Walter Cummins, who came there to teach a Renewed Mind class, of all things, called her in and blamed the entire incident on her- even more ludicrous than Moynahan's reaction!

So I took the letter, which explained all the gory details and ended with "You know, Walter walks like Dr. Wierwille, talks like Dr. Wierwille, I wonder if he even knows it?" and threw it down on VPW's desk and said, "Read it." He did so, looked up and said, "What do you want me to do, fire everybody?" and I responded, "No, but we'd better get honest around here." The following days before I left for good were merely a hardening of positions.

As for Sunny S, if it's the same person I think it is, I surely agree that she had a heart of gold. I've often wondered what became of her. Glad to hear that she finally got shed of LCM and twi. I took her out to dinner the night before my final departure, down to Dayton and then Richmond, IN to see Ted and Mardelle sing, since she'd seemed to be down in the mouth the previous week as she'd come over to duplicate tapes above my office. I figured that getting fifty miles away for the place would do her good.

We didn't get ten miles donw the road before she started spilling the beans about what was on her mind- not seeing miracles at Hqd's or in the Corp, etc., whereas she'd seen them often before coming to NK, and she thought she was the problem!

I assured her that her not seeing miracles was because they weren't happening since most folks at Hqd's seemed to think they could do things perfectly well on their own and didn't figure they needed God's help any more.

Anyway, by the time the evening was over, she seemed to be her old self again and not second guessing herself for suposedly being "tripped out".

The next day the Anderson Inquisition happened and I often wondered what her take on that event was. Seemed to me that many of the twenty accusations against me were mysteriously similar to our conversations of the evening before.

I always assumed that she got back into the pressure cooker of her corp and was forced to spill the beans to Craig about our conversations. He was in the same corp as she was. Always felt sort of sorry that she got dragged into matter and became the vehicle to bring it to a head.

Sure would like to see her again and compare notes of her part in that day. Craig I had already dismissed as an all-American guy that had turned into an all-American Jerk. As Evan would say, it was a very good day for me! I got to say, "Bye, Bye!" (and I'm not saying what else I said- at least not here!)

let there be light

Global user

(1/21/00 9:46:06 am)

Reply RE: When did TWI III begin?

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David

Its amazing what a little leaven can do isn't it?

Sad to think of all those who so wanted to truly serve God to be used and abused by deceitful men. Although abused by evil men we should take heed to Peter and be encouraged.

I Peter 3:10-17

For he that will love life, and see good

days, let him refrain his tongue from evil,

and his lips that they speak no guile:

Let him eschew evil and do good: let him seek

peace, and ensue it;

For the eyes of the Lord are over the

righteous, and his ears are open to their

prayers: but the face of the Lord is against

them that do evil.

And who is he that will harm you, if ye be

followers of that which is good?

But and if ye suffer for righteouss'sake,

happy are ye:and be not afraid of their

terror, neither be troubled;

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and

be ready always to give an answer to every

man that asketh you a reason of the hope that

is in you with meekness and fear:

Having a good conscience;that, wheras, they

speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may

be ashamed that falsly accuse your good

conversation in Christ.

For it is better, if the will of God be so,

that ye suffer for well doing, than for

evil-doing.

I referred to I Corinthians 3:11-13 in my post to you and would like to add the entire second chapter of II Peter concerning the "reward of unrighteousness" which is the "mist of darkness forever". According to my take this reward is reserved for those who knew better bit still go the way of Balaam.

Like yourself, I am also happy to be away from all that super religious controlling nonsense. The actions of much of the leadership in all the various "WAYS" unfortunately is not unique to that one small organization. I find it to be rampant in other so called "ministries" also.

I know the Lord wants us to be free from all things that bind and so one must make a decision whom they will serve. Whether it be another man or the Lord.

I find it refreshing to be free to go and do whatever the Lord puts on my heart without having to "sell" the revelation to some leader in order to gain his approval. Phooey to that nonsense! Maybe some of us are called to serve Him in the Highways and Byways of life.

In one of the parables of the Kingdom the Lord said that the Kingdom was the World (not in just a local church organization), and the seed which were sown are the children of the kingdom. The tares were also sown in the world by the devil and they are his children. Alas the two grow together until the angels come to harvest the tares to be burned in the fire.

My point is that most people I know who have truly found freedom in Christ rarely limit themselves to some one organization. Oh they may sometimes be a part of one but they are never bound by them and so at some point they are either asked to leave that organization or are forced to leave because of the vain glory of the "leaders".

I believe its the Lord that gives us the desires of our hearts. I take that to mean that He puts the desires in our hearts then its up to us to follow that urge or desire.

One day I realized that unknowinly I was searching for the validation of men. The day in which the Lord revealed this to me was a very remarkable turning point in my life. I wanted so much for someone to recognize that I was a spiritual man. Of course the ego-maniacs will never do this even if it is so. No to the contrary they will do everything to squelch you because of jealousy. I realized what vain glory is is to seek the praise of others. This is why I wanted to be Way Corps or ordained or some other form of public recognition. What a counterfiet. I repented of that immediately!

Paul said in I Timothy 1:12-15. He thanked Christ Jesus who enabled him, for that he counted him faithful, and put him into the ministry.

The validation from men is fleeting and will dry up and die on the vine.

Jesus Christ is still seeking those who are fools in order to confound the wise. and He still uses the "foolishness of preaching" accomplish His ultimate goal of bring tru salvation to men.

A fool who at times is preachy...

light

Sunesis

Local user

(1/21/00 9:47:26 am)

Reply TWI

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I remember Sunny S. being discussed when I was in residence - hush hush. I got the impression there had been a "relationship" between her and Craig at one time.

Anyway, she was "anethema" by then. Somehow, by luck, I ran across some old tapes and teachings she had done in the tape library at Emporia. I don't think anyone realized they were there. I listened to them. Even though I never knew her, she was a wonderful teacher. Blew Donna off the stage. I remember thinking at the time it was too bad this woman was not with the ministry anymore.

Radar OReilly

Global user

(1/21/00 2:57:21 pm)

Reply Re: TWI

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David A,

I think it was 1979..there was some sort of an open weekend in Berkeley CA. There were a number of "managers" in from hq (I specifically remember Vince Finnegan,,,but hey it was 20 years ago) but anyway, Sunny Sanders showed up. She looked beautiful and was sweet as ever. If I remember correctly, she was met by Al Wajnberg....if you get my drift.

Litwin

Global user

(1/22/00 5:39:40 am)

Reply spiritual recognition for "let there be light"

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Hey, I recognize you, you are a spiritual person. What a great post! Thanks for the stuff you said about spiritual people not being bound by an organization and the inevitable response of those who seek vain glory in men. I feel like I'm finally starting to walk again since leaving TWI in '95 or '96 (Isn't it great I can't remember).

You were talking about rewards (ashes & the things like silver that endure the fire); it seems I remember - was it the Lord Jesus - talking about those who seek the praise of men, that they already have their reward.

You said, "I believe its the Lord that gives us the desires of our hearts. I take that to mean that He puts the desires in our hearts then its up to us to follow that urge or desire."

I believe the Lord gives us the desires of our hearts. I also take that to mean that He puts the desires in our hearts then its up to us to follow that urge or desire. But then again after that the Lord really gives us the desires of our hearts in manifestation - reality, not just in our hearts. They both come in the category of increase & that's God's business & he is not slack concerning his promises - even though some of our desires will take the return of Jesus Christ he is still not slack.

Your post was a real healer - thanks again.

Growing again,

Tom Heller

Litwin

Global user

(1/22/00 1:18:09 pm)

Reply the first time "sunesis" met him

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Funny sunesis (funny uh oh not funny ha ha)that you should say, "I was very disappointed the first time I met him in Rye and heard him teach - I was not impressed and I just didn't like the guy - something about him I didn't trust.

The second time he came, I couldn't wait to get out, I just really did not like him. Everyone told me I was having a "spiritual reaction." I think God was trying to tell me something."

The first time I saw him was in Rye & it was all I could do to keep from leaving the church. I did my best to think positively & objectively & pay attention to what he said, but every time I did I thought what I heard was such complete & utter bs - I was so disgusted. He came dressed in flaming pink/violet with lace jutting out past the suit sleeves. I wonder if that was one of the times you saw him there. I told my friend I had to leave this thing (ministry). I couldn't have anything to do with a group that this guy headed up. My friend persuaded my to give it one more try. Dr. W was going to be teaching the following night in Long Island & if I went there & spoke in tongues from the beginning of the teaching to the end & still felt the same way he wouldn't try to persuade me to stay. So I went to the meeting & Dr. W taught on the holy spirit field and homosexuality & I was held by the clarity and power and simple call to power & deliverance. Go figure.

BTW friend if you are reading this, I'm still glad I stayed.

You know Dave whenever people came to a parting of the ways with TWI, not only did Dr W always wind up with the money; he always wound up with the people too. I guess when people parted they were in transition & needed time to rethink & regroup. Would have been nice if we had all told him to kiss off & continued moving with the people in our areas. Well, God is still calling his own.

David A Anderson

Global user

(1/23/00 11:15:50 am)

Reply Re: Litwin

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Good point about VPW not only ending up with the money but the people too. Toward the end of my tenure there was a gal in California who took PFAL and soon afterward hitch hiked up to Alaska to help out a friend who evidently was in desperate straights at the time.

So the gal in Alaska also took PFAL, evidently grabbed on to it, and was helped substantially. Sometime after that, the gal from California bailed on twi and the gal from Alaska railed on her for being "tripped out" and boasted that VPW had saved her life.

But it wasn't some celuloid film that saved her life. It was the gal from California! I never knew VPW to hitchhike from the Bay Area to Alaska to help anyone- although twi did pay for the mailing of the film in all probability- and likely received a return on that "investment", from both the gal in California and the gal in Alaska, that was far in excess of "reasonable compensation".

But for the gal in Alaska to have railed against the friend that helped her, that is far more ugly to me than the mere amassing of wealth that twi engaged in. Hopefully the gal from Alaska bailed on twi sooner or later as well and reconsidered just who really helped her and who did not.

Sunesis

Local user

(1/24/00 9:18:09 am)

Reply TWI

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Litwin - so I wasn't the only who felt that way! I stayed too. It was the Word I wanted and the Heefners were just electrifying. I was able to overlook Dr.!

RalphD1

Global user

(1/24/00 12:51:42 pm)

Reply Re: TWI

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hey dave anderson........it was john garazzo who took over for steffan in early 1972 after steffan split for the first time......nice guy.....but not very personable.......

i find this thread interesting because of the memories it brings back........those were "heady" days back in 1970-71........but i think separating them by numbers like the difference between twi1 and twi2 is a little too "abrupt"......i think that these were more like "mutations" which twi1 evolved through on it's way to becoming a truly destructive cult of personality........

there was a major "mutation" prior to the one in early 1972........IMHO.......it was the one which catapulted vp's class to the level of ''stardom"......this occurred with the presence and prodding and long hours put in by peter j. wade and david anderson in getting vp to film the class.......i would give it the years of 1967-1972........without the pfal class on tape and film,......there never would have been twi1........it was this vehicle which enabled that hokey, chain-smoking, hard-drinkin', harley-drivin', redneck preacher from bumf--- ohio to "reach the world" with his word!......this is what got the heefner's, doop's, mcnulty's, fugit, etc.....into vp's sphere of influence in the early daze of the jesus freak "movement".......it's als

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My chronology

TWI 1942- the India trip

1950s -1964 teaching mainstream doctrine

1964-1969 Pfal put on film, deviations from mainstream theology

1970-1976 Jesus movement taken advantage of, looser mentality, but changes came when vpw pulled coup in Way East and Way West.

1977-1980 age of classes at large universities PFAL 77 at Ball State and Advanced Class 79 at Ohio U.

1981-1985 twi goes corporate, wow auditorium plans made, aos made vpw steps down

1986-1990 lcm keeps things rolling until POP and then loyalty oaths, purges start.

1991-now total legalism creeps in forever changing heart of ministry.

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Thanks for bringing this thread back again - I think this is one of the greatest threads that was ever on Waydale or Greasespot.

What a time it was. We did love God didn't we? I still do. We were so young and naive, but loved God. I am so thankful I lived in the time of a true revival and outpouring of God's spirit like that.

Why did we stay? As one poster stated, we kept trying to perpetuate the "revival," kept trying to keep it going - as if VPW, or us were the ones responsible for it - not God.

Revivals come and go. If we do have another one in this country, this time the Glory will be to God, and not the man who happens to be at the helm at the time.

Anyway, some of these memories almost bring tears to my eyes - very moving. Hopefully all the new "outies" will be blessed by this.

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Wow, I just reread this thread and I have a question.

How do I put this delicately? hmmmm, maybe I missed it somewhere, but.....

Have Reuben and Rhoda passed away? or are they still living?

I have many fond memories of keeping "Uncle" Reuben company at the fuel plaza, and eating dinner with them. They were so incredibly kind and sweet to me, and I was just an in-rez peon.

Does anyone know what became of them? Sorry if I missed it somewhere.

"Uncle" Reuben told me LOTS of stories that I still remember. It was quite enlightening, hanging out with him.

Edited by Guest

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ex10,

As best I remember, "Uncle" Reuben passed away in 1987 or 1988......and Rhoda moved into trailer 5 shortly after the funeral.

One of the reasons why I seem to remember this is because......trailer 5 was equipped with all the European audio/video stuff and was designated specifically for whenever Chris Gxxx came over to help the trustees after POP was publically read at corps week in 1986.

Reuben....such a gentle soul. And, Rhoda, with her strong Mennonite background, seemed always ready to work some more. As far as I know, Rhoda is still living in trailer 5.

Fresh

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Thousands of extras were added to trailer 5......trying to make it pleasing for Chris Gxxx......all the fussing over the details.

And when trailer 5 was finished............NOT one night did Chris G. ever sleep there. At that time, he was refusing to come to HQ....fearing for his life.

Fresh

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Chronology

Yes def59, there are MANY twi's, and probably MANY ways to break them all down - here's one man's view:

Pre-Cult twi:

1942-approx. 1950:

  • Vesper Chimes
  • Radio "Ministry"
  • Denominational pastorates
  • Influence from sources later plagarized

Early 50's:

  • "Research" that would later become PFAL
  • Plagarism of sources later incorporated into PFAL
  • Publication of various pamphlets and monographs

1953:

  • PFAL first taught after attending and then plagarizing BG Leonard's class

Mid - Late 50's:

  • India Trip
  • PFAL taught in areas outside New Knoxville

Proto-cult twi:

1957:

  • VP leaves (or is thrown out of) denomination
  • Group formally incorporated as The Way Inc.
  • Large Board of Directors governs organization

Late 50's - Mid 60's:

  • Doctrine begins to take on unique form that will later solidify into Jesus Christ is not God, Dead not alive, etc.
  • Board of Directors canned by VP in favor of three-man Board of Trustees

Late 60's:

  • Growth begins to accelarate
  • More PFAL classes outside local Ohio area (Mal George and Donnie Fugit also teach class live)
  • Class filmed and distributed
  • Most Way doctrines now "etched in stone" with filming of PFAL

Cult twi I ("Wierwille as the MOG" Regime):

Early 70's:

  • VP takes advantage of aspects of the "hippies" and "Jesus Movement" to form base of new expansion and growth
  • All Abundant sharing brought into HQ
  • ROA's start
  • Way Corps initiated after one false start (zero Corps)
  • WOW program initiated
  • VP takes over semi-independent Way East and Way West
  • Way Tree concept solidifies VP's control as MOG over all fellowships using PFAL
  • Contoversial doctrines put in book form and pushed as doctrinal centerpieces (JCING, ADAN)

Late 70's:

  • Huge growth
  • Huge classes (PFAL 77, Adv Class 79)
  • Worldwide expansion
  • Way Corps groups increase
  • Replacement of non-Way Corps twig and branch leaders by Way Corps grads

Early 80's:

  • Pinnacle of VP as MOG
  • Huge international expansion (e.g. Zaire)
  • Way Corps training in Europe and South America
  • WOW Festivals in Europe, Africa, Australia, South America
  • Martindale begins to push Wierwille aside to establish personal control

Interregnum (aka Fog Years):

Late 80's:

  • Wierwille dies
  • Some top leaders question Martindale
  • Passing of the Patriarch read
  • Geer-Martindale power struggle
  • Five member Board of Trustees
  • Leaders are fired or leave
  • "Loyalty to Loy" letter sent out
  • Offshoots are started by ex-Way leaders
  • Mass defections from twi
  • So-called Galatians tapes recorded

Cult twi II (Martindale really in charge):

Early 90's:

  • Martindale works to re-establish his authority
  • Galatians tapes deseminated as "Leadership tapes" to discredit Geer, Lynn and other ex-Way leaders and offshoot founders
  • Martindale films new PFAL Advanced Class and Defeating the Adversary Class
  • Mark and Avoid and Probation stepped up to keep control
  • Household/Zion concept pushed
  • Martindale's "Rise and Expansion" book published

Late 90's:

  • Martindale's efforts at control turn nasty
  • "Homo" purge
  • Martindale announces that "the Word is over the world"
  • ROA cancelled
  • WOW program replaced by Way Disciples
  • PFAL replaced by Way of Abundance and Power classes after two-year gap with no classes
  • Word in Business cancelled
  • Humiliations, purges, and control increases
  • Advanced Class Specials every other year

Cult twi III (Martindale out - Rosie in):

2000 - :

  • Martindale purged
  • 1/3 of Region Coordinators leave
  • Rivenbark regime
  • "Kinder, gentler" TWI

As each new phase begins, a revionist look at previous phases is introduced. For example,

During the 80's and 90's, Martindale was revered as the supreme MOG, while now his name is never mentioned.

During the late 80's there were times that Chris Geer had de facto control of the Way. Two additional Trustees were added, these facts were not acknowledged in later phases.

The pre-70's Way Inc. is looked back upon as the same as the current Way (household, etc.) when the structure was very different.

Important early leaders who left are never mentioned again (e.g. Peter Wade)

Oakspear

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is

[This message was edited by Oakspear on June 12, 2003 at 13:14.]

Edited by Guest

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Oakie -

I don't think you left anything out. Damn good job. The only thing I would change is JC is NOT God really started coming to light in the early 70's. IMO, the unique and/or controversial teachings besides "Are the Dead Alive Now" in the 50's were the Pentecostal-type teachings like S.I.T. and the other manifestations.

There was also a time between PFAL and WAP that there were NO classes available. Then it took a year of Grad classes before WAP was released to "new" people. I think that had a negative impact on TWI as well. They had nothing to offer.

I think people started realizing that even WITH a class, TWI didn't have much to offer to new people. Then, when WAP finally came out, the grads who took it REALLY saw that TWI had NOTHING to offer.

Anyway - that's a really super chronology!

Hope R. color>size>face>

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Just bringing it to the top again icon_biggrin.gif:D-->

Oakspear icon_cool.gif

"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"

Henri Poincare

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Thanks, Oakspear, for bringing this to the top again.

I've only recently discovered GSC. I've been reading the old posts and was looking for this old thread that some of you had alluded to. Glad I could read some of Doug and Ralph's posts. Made me cry. Ralph was one of the honest ones and fought so hard when he was at HQ for those of us who ran twigs and branches on the field to get some support (once all the $ went to HQ, all the money we needed for classes, large meetings, etc. came out of our own pockets).

I got involved in '73 in Calif. and knew some of the old guys in Oakland, Alameda and Mill Valley area. Del and Nancy, the Abellas, Ralph & Joann Anderson, Brian Yim, Walter Crinnion, Brian Heney, Doug Simeon, Pat Powell, Tom Saffold, Jerry Carr. Mary Jo Roesche Powell and Valerie Good Squibb and my sister and I went to grade school together.

Anyway, many of us were witnessed to and undersheperded by very bold, very sweet and loving people who were the "old timers". We were all teenagers, loved God so very much, each had our great stories of deliverance. I received great physical and mental healing in my life. We loved to witness in those days, teach Romans 10:9 and lead people right into tongues.

I will always remain thankful for those days and being exposed to the Bible for the first time in my life at that young age. God has always been there for me and continues to love me and teach me in such incredible ways.

Thank you to all who shared on those old threads.

Much love,

Jardinero

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One of the great things about this thread is that many people who were actually there in the supposed "good old days" weigh in with their own perceptions of that time. It wasn't all sweetness and light and good times and the love of God.

Occssionally someone pops up and makes the assetion that Martindale ruined it all, but that Wierwille was a true man of God. The whole picturte is a little more complicated than that.

Oakspear icon_cool.gif

"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"

Henri Poincare

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Oakspear,

Ditto on the kudos for bringing this to the top.

I remember reading this long ago when it first appeared.

I too remember Ralph's testemony as outstanding here, especially to the reality of the signs miracles and wonders that WE did, not from the Corporate structure and soap operas, but from the MASSIVE infusion of God's Word and the daring to believe it.

I remember Ralph well from then.

I was there at Rye too.

It was a BIG deal.

This is such a massive set of details. I don't want to say any more here. The only time I want to spend on this thread is READING. I just had to say this much.

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Oak,

quote:
Occssionally someone pops up and makes the assetion that Martindale ruined it all, but that Wierwille was a true man of God. The whole picturte is a little more complicated than that.

For what it is worth, I'll assert that Wierwille ruined it all when he made his power plays to take control of these areas and movements by things like the WOW program, centralizing the abundant sharing, and the Way Tree.

Many movements around the country and around the world were started by people who moved there because God told them to go there. Long Island was started that way. New York State was started that way. I think Kansas was.

When Wierwille put the WOW program into operation, he said that it was because God was telling people to pack up and move to areas to open the Word up, but people were afraid to act on the revelation (BS - that's major bs).

He said that it was only going to be for a brief period, a few years, until people developed the boldness to act directly on the revelation that God was giving them (more BS, obviously).

Before he centralized it, Wierwille complained that people were abusing the abundant sharing. He said he had no method of keeping track of it so that he could hold people accountable (bs). That summer, at summer school, the branch coordinator and his assistant from Long Island - a couple of very sharp people - presented Wierwille with an accounting system for the abundant sharing. Wierwille said he wasn't going to go with it.

He said that people weren't mature enough to handle the money (BS - how can you responsibly handle the spiritual matters of people's lives if you can't handle the physical money. The Word says in no uncertain terms that you can't. Besides, what the heck ever happened to doctrine, reproof, & correction on that one?)

Wierwille said that the centralization of the abundant sharing was only going to be for 1-3 years until the people matured enough to handle it, then he was going to turn it back over to the people (BS: The BS doesn't get any deeper than that folks).

The Word moved wonderfully with signs, miracles, and wonders following in the early '70s because it was a genuine move of the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ was the head of these movements, and the parts worked in holy spirit coordinated symmetry.

The Way Tree was simply Wierwille's power play. The Way Tree was his move to incorporate the body of Christ. It is a simple leadership power structure. You can't concretize the body of Christ that way. The body of Christ comes with its own joints and bands of ministry. The Way Tree takes those out & replaces them with Wierwille ordained leadership. It severely cripples the functioning of the body. It is anti Christ.

Maybe, like Craig said, you can't sell soap without the type of agreed upon loyalty between men that Wierwille introduced and Craig just made worse - BUT soap has no life. I know the idea is scary and seems hopelessly optimistic and dellusional to those who grew accustomed to the Way Tree, but the body of Christ really can operate with Christ as the head. "Yes, but don't we..." I hear people saying. No, we don't need... The move of the Word went better in NY, CA, KC, other places around the country - South America, Europe, places around the world with signs, miracles, and wonders following BEFORE the Way Tree than after it. It was simply Wierwille's bid for control.

After Wierwille took control of these areas, they continued to exponentially increase in numbers for a while because of the math of the way the Word moves and because it was still driven by oldies who wanted to see the original purity of the thing again - but it was NEVER the same.

So went the woe of the way.

Matthew 23:15  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Wierwille was a Pharisee, a hypocrite, and Craig was a disciple he found whom he made twofold more the child of hell than himself.

Edited by Guest

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Tom:

Well said, brother. Yes, the pure and simple move of the Holy Spirit...

Quote:

"The Word moved wonderfully with signs, miracles, and wonders following in the early '70s because it was a genuine move of the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ was the head of these movements, and the parts worked in holy spirit coordinated symmetry.

The body of Christ comes with its own joints and bands of ministry.

the body of Christ really can operate with Christ as the head."

We lived in an area with no leadership "over" us for a number of years and when we moved back to the Bay Area, we were shocked by the confining structure, the squelching of the spirit of God - - the "me, me, me! Let me be in charge, let me rule, let me play God!" mentality that had taken over.

It only got worse with time, and you're right on Tom, with every program, with every administrative level they added, that genuine move of the Spirit got squelched pretty fast.

The scriptural emphasis of Jesus Christ being the head of the body, of him really being our lord, of each believer's loving service to the master was sorely overlooked in teachings and the gracious gift of God to every believer, paid for by Jesus which enables each saved soul to play such a significant, unique and vital part in the edifying of the Body was replaced by "another" gospel.

Truly God is so much bigger than what came to be known as the "move of the Word" in later years.

As for me, I slowly continue to regain true humility before God once again as I loose the bondage I allowed myself to become entangled in. The joy is coming back as I endeavor to live simply before God.

There's much I do not yet fully understand about serving the Master, but day by day...the answers are coming.

Tom, you are very loving to post what you did. I pray that the fire for God within your heart continues to burn and your unique ministry within the Body will be full.

Much love,

Jardinero

P.S. Correction of doctrinal error:

"..but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

Galatians 1:7,8

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Thanks oakspear for bringing this thread up. I read it all the way through and brought some fire in me. Its good to be reminded of the wonderful people that had the love in thier hearts and also good to be reminded of the evil that started because of the corporation brought in. If twi would have left it alone they would have been even more prosperous. But then I don't think it was a matter of money but of control. They wanted the glory. It worked for a while until the ones that were truly moving the Word were gone.

Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!

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This is a great thread. I read it in Waydale and reread it here. RalphD you were one of my favorite teachers of the word. I love your love of God and his people and your humor. I remember seeing you in Boston at the 40th I think anniversary and have a nice picture of you and me. I would love to hear from you sometime.

Dovey

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PS. Ralph I was born in Brooklyn, my fathers family lived in Bedford Stuyvesc ah shoot I can't spell that. anyway you know what i'm talking about, they also had a motorcycle shop there. They sold Indian motorcycles.

Dovey

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We all had our own "personal" TWI's that had more to do with with who "got us in the Word" than who the "leaders" were.

There were good times, good people, and great godly things happening...more in spite of "the Way tree" than because of it

Oakspear icon_cool.gif

"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"

Henri Poincare

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THe thread that started the healing in my life-- How great to see it back-- For the "real" story Ralph D and DAve Anderson gave that made me think thaat maybe just maybe i wasn't as insane as I'd believed

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