You know...anither thing about many of those *good* leaders (not all)....I noticed that as soon as you were no longer in their area of *responsibility*....they were no longer your best friend, spiritual confidante, brother in christ....etc....you were no longer of any iomportance.
People you had learned to love...to pray for ...to do whatever you could for....when you saw them at roa...they had no use for you any more..
After a while I got pretty cynical about every leader who came along pretending to be my best buddy...wanting me to believe that they were vitally interested in my life ...wanting only the very best for me....blech
I know quite a few good men and women who were in TWI serving as leaders who wanted nothing more than to love God and the people they served.
Over time, many of them became hardened and bitter (B*b M******n). Others who left TWI stayed wonderful and loving (Joe Guarini). But I can't think of too many in that catagory because I lost touch with most of them.
No one who I know of that was a loving and caring leader in TWI 1 or 2 and stayed in through TWI 3 & 4 remained that way. No one. And I watched them change over the years, too. It wasn't a pretty sight.
that is why a guy like Del Duncan did not last in twi. Del was not perfect, duh, none of us are, but Del was true: he never betrayed a confidence and he went to the mat for people. Contrast Del with Blo* M*****an -- self-explanatory...
You know hope, I guess you have a point...some leaders did remain *real* but as you said it seems to me they were driven out or shunted to the side...
After a while it seemed like we were only a means to an end with our leadership...keep us built up.... *happy* so we would preform to standard...witnessing... classes...numbers were always the measuring stick and standard for excellence in any area I was in....seemed like we were only valuable as long as we were producing...
After a while it seemed like we were only a means to an end with our leadership...keep us built up.... *happy* so we would preform to standard...witnessing... classes...numbers were always the measuring stick and standard for excellence in any area I was in....seemed like we were only valuable as long as we were producing...
One sees this in corporate america every day.
One company I worked for awhile back would bring in the "bad boys" to give us all bad news. We'd all get up in arms and ready to quit. The company would let us grouse around for a few hours...even let us not perform our work.
Then the company would send in the "good guys" to "help" us do our jobs. Usually what would happen is the top producing team would be singled out and brought together to "discuss" how the news would have been better received. This gave a feeling of ownership to us worker bees. We'd give ideas of how to soften the blow and what would encourage us to continue producing even in the face of bad news. (Like one year it took 6 months before our raises were reflected in our paychecks.)
What happened is that the company took that information and turned it against our co-workers. People would be taken aside and instead of being given a reward for their work, they were chastised for not measuring up in "times of stress".
It was always the "good guys" who delivered such "counsel".
It was done to make people feel guilty for "thinking evil" about the person who was delivering the "counsel".
Yep, use the "good guys" to do the dirty work...that way people's feelings will be confused...then all you have to do is cash in on the confusion.
I know quite a few good men and women who were in TWI serving as leaders who wanted nothing more than to love God and the people they served.
>>
Were all Way leaders bad ? Oh I don't know about that but in my expeience almost all of the bad I ever experienced while in TWI involved leaders. My experience is far from unique and I daresy more common than not.
In the early 70s I felt that many people had the proverbial "heart for God" but that became a stock rationalization for VPW's behavior and that of others - "Oh he has fatigued himself in the service of God's one true church so on occasion he might indulge a human desire. So what ? He had such a huge heart for God and his people ? No one is perfect you know ?".
I knew some great people in TWI and I certainly
give them (the people) credit for that. And obviously if it was bad from the start then
there would have been no way for TWI to have
flourished as it did. So while I certainly
believe that people were well meaning it certainly doesn't excuse them from the bad
things that they might have perpetrated on
others - either actively or passively by not
standing up and pointing out the growing corruption within the upper ranks.
Some people left while others stayed to see
if it could be worked out. I'm not blaming people who did that. But there were lots of
tyrannial leaders even as far back as the 70s
and certainly in the 80s. I left around 83 so
can't say much after that. the point is that
leaders have a responsibility to point out
the general problems within the organization
even if it means dealing with someone else's
personality problems. But that didn't happen
a lot - at least no in a fashion that made
major differences on the field.
And worse yet, some even took their frustrations
out on those in the field , asserting their
leadership positions to the avergage guy perhaps in reaction to the growing confusion
Wow...*use* the good people to do the dirty work....damn if that doesn`t really make sense...and vpw n ha laughing their -sses off all the way to the bank...(to quote ha)
"I know quite a few good men and women who were in TWI serving as leaders who wanted nothing more than to love God and the people they served."
In theory, I wish such were the case. Such was NOT my experience however.
diazbro:
". . . I don't know about that but in my expeience almost all of the bad I ever experienced while in TWI involved leaders. My experience is far from unique and I daresy more common than not."
I could not agree more.
In my 18 year experience with TWI, the 'good' leaders were those who lived 100+ miles away from me. Each time that we were in small branch-areas, the Limb Coordinators usually could not drag themselves away from the inner-city huge branches, to be bothered with us out in the sparce under-populated areas. Without a doubt the Corpse-nazis who never knew my name, and never visited my twig, who the 'greatest' Men-of-God the ministry had.
Some Country Coordinators were okay, generally just the non-corpse ones though.
Usually it seemed to me, that the ministry worked well and was very loving so long as no corpse were involved.
Edited to be less insulting:
I do not intend to be insulting to ALL Way Corps grads. I have not met all of them, nor do I intend to (within this life). My observations are limited to those individuals within which I have had dealings. I have been told that the majority of Way Corpse Grads were gentle kind and loving. Such has not been my observations, and I can only speak to that which I have both seen and heard. From among those Corpse of whom I have dealt, the majority of them ended as severely negative experiences. I had assumed that such was always the case with most Average Joe Believers. If anyone takes anything that I have written personally and feels insulted, I apologize. I can only speak concerning those of whom I have dealt with myself. On numerous occasions I have named Corpse Grads who have acted un-kindly and carried themselves in a manner which brought a bad name to Christianity. If you are not among those I have so named, then obviously you were never a complete idiot in your dealings with me. There were always many loving godly believers within TWI, who only wanted to worship G-d and serve others.
I think it mattered if you were a favorite of the "mean" ones or not. We were very favored & not put under a lot of scrutiny because, well, we towed the line. And we acted like them when the occasion presented itself.
Make no mistake, if you messed up, these guys would crawl done your throat too...favorite or not.
I always felt that if the good leaders were treating people with goodness it was because they were NOT doing what they were told to do by the higher ups.
Sooner or later they'd be sniffed out and given the TWI leadershi+ ultimatum... shape up or ship out.
"I think the uncorrupted leaders, the ones who genuinely wanted to do their
best for God, were local and not high up the "food chain".
For the most part, if you were in it to "climb the ladder", you didn't stop
at territory coordinator-you pushed for more. If you really were in it for
others, above territory coordinator the others become faceless, and that
can't be good. So, the best, in my opinion, were kept down due to their
"ambition" to serve, which only helped us because they could make a
difference in OUR lives since we could find them."
I could agree with that summation.
I dont recall ever being within a twig that was led by a corpse person, but I do recall hearing that there were some corpse who were just Twig-coordinators. On the few occassions that I was traveling and found myself in a 'heavily populated area' (meaning a city with dozens of corpse living in it), it did seem that the 'lower' corpse were much nicer and could even possibly be considered human. Almost as human as a regular beleiver.
So it would be a reasonable idea that the 'nasty / evil / boot-licking / a$$hole' characteristics may have been painted on thicker as a person climbed higher up the ladder.
Edited to be more gentle:
I do not intend to be insulting to ALL Way Corps grads. I have not met all of them, nor do I intend to (within this life). My observations are limited to those individuals within which I have had dealings. I have been told that the majority of Way Corpse Grads were gentle kind and loving. Such has not been my observations, and I can only speak to that which I have both seen and heard. From among those Corpse of whom I have dealt, the majority of them ended as severely negative experiences. I had assumed that such was always the case with most Average Joe Believers. If anyone takes anything that I have written personally and feels insulted, I apologize. I can only speak concerning those of whom I have dealt with myself. On numerous occasions I have named Corpse Grads who have acted un-kindly and carried themselves in a manner which brought a bad name to Christianity. If you are not among those I have so named, then obviously you were never a complete idiot in your dealings with me. There were always many loving godly believers within TWI, who only wanted to worship G-d and serve others.
quote:So it would be a reasonable idea that the 'nasty / evil / boot-licking / a$$hole' characteristics may have been painted on thicker as a person climbed higher up the ladder.
I can agree with you to a point Galen. If I remember that you said "it would be reasonable"... yeah... it would be... but remember, that still doesn't mean ALL corps... maybe most or all of the ones you came in contact with were like that, and it makes me sad and sick...
Remember, I've been out for over 20 years... I didn't see and personally experience all of the evil that you and others did... I left when I first sniffed it... but I believe it happened and I believe it still happens...
I would like for you to keep in mind who taught all of the "nasty/evil/boot-licking/a$$hole" corps that you encountered... either veepee or craig... and it ultimately goes back to veepee because that's who craig thought he was emulating... they were the ones who set the examples of how a leader was to behave...
not ALL corps were "nasty/evil/boot-licking/a$$hole"... look around here... there's quite a few around here who weren't...
"I always felt that if the good leaders were treating people with goodness it was because they were NOT doing what they were told to do by the higher ups.
Sooner or later they'd be sniffed out and given the TWI leadershi+ ultimatum... shape up or ship out."
True, true, true
Two corps couples that I know of - great love and compassion for their people
R*b and Kat*y H*owe
Nat* and N*ancy Pi*lsbur*
Both just out of the blue - gone. If you guys are out there, we love you and you did a GREAT job loving us. These people really loved Gog and the people they oversaw. It was so obvious.
quote:In the early 70s I felt that many people had the proverbial "heart for God" but that became a stock rationalization for VPW's behavior and that of others - "Oh he has fatigued himself in the service of God's one true church so on occasion he might indulge a human desire. So what ?
this reminds me of one time (of a few) VF screamed at me like i was a dog. i "told on him" ha ha ha ha and was told that he was under a lot of spiritual pressure (he was the universe leader or something). i said, well if he can't handle the pressure, he should get another job. ha ha ha ha ha what an asshoole
I think your observations are pretty astute. From my experience as a branch coordinator, and then territory coordinator, it seems that these "leadership positions" were a real dividing point.
Let me explain. I think the most difficult "position" in TWI was that of a branch coordinator. I'm talking back in the day, when a branch was 7 to 12 twigs. Usually, branch coords were not salaried staff employees, but "volunteers." So they had to do everything else the twig coord's were doing, ie, hold down a full time job, support your family, haul kids around to ball games, run classes, attend "ministry" functions, etc. The demands were many, and ya had to be able to function in "real life."
Step up to territory coord. Then maybe, you got some kind of financial reimbursement, as in "ministry" related expenses, but usually you weren't yet a fully vested Way employee. If you were lucky, you got a few bucks to cover gas and your long distance phone bills, and if your "believing wasn't big enough" for a FREE room to hold meetings for 120 or so people, you might get reimbursed for a room rental fee.
Once a postion above territory coord got offered, the decision had to be made whether to "full time with the ministry" or not. Those who chose to go "full time" had to be pretty sold out to the organization, because now they were employees, usually and dependent on towing the company line for their bread and butter.
The branch and territory coords were still "volunteers" and seemed to be more willing to speak up and be assertive about policies and proceedures, cause we were busting our buts doing everything the regular twiggies were doing and more. Once the waypay started coming in, things changed drastically. Catch my drift?
". . . From my experience as a branch coordinator, and then territory coordinator, it seems that these "leadership positions" were a real dividing point."
We are in agreement.
"Let me explain. I think the most difficult "position" in TWI was that of a branch coordinator. I'm talking back in the day, when a branch was 7 to 12 twigs. Usually, branch coords were not salaried staff employees, but "volunteers." So they had to do everything else the twig coord's were doing, ie, hold down a full time job, support your family, haul kids around to ball games, run classes, attend "ministry" functions, etc. The demands were many, and ya had to be able to function in "real life."
I seem to recall that was about right. In my limited experience within TWI, we were in 2 different branches. In 1980 and again in 1983. One BC was a interim-corpse WOW, and the second was a Corpse-grad couple. Both had to work, though I seem to think that the couple was able to submit some expenses for compensation.
The remainder of our experiences, we were running a twig and interfaced with limb directly. It seemed like at annual-limb-meetings we were usually labeled 'out-lying areas'.
"Step up to territory coord. Then maybe, you got some kind of financial reimbursement, as in "ministry" related expenses, but usually you weren't yet a fully vested Way employee. If you were lucky, you got a few bucks to cover gas and your long distance phone bills, and if your "believing wasn't big enough" for a FREE room to hold meetings for 120 or so people, you might get reimbursed for a room rental fee."
I dont recall ever interfacing with anyone who called themselves a 'Territory Coord'.
"Once a postion above territory coord got offered, the decision had to be made whether to "full time with the ministry" or not. Those who chose to go "full time" had to be pretty sold out to the organization, because now they were employees, usually and dependent on towing the company line for their bread and butter. . . . Once the waypay started coming in, things changed drastically."
Yes, I see entirely. We have dealt with other Twig Coord(TC), 2 Branch Coord(BC), and with various Limb Coords(LC) in different limbs (Connecticut, Virginia, California, Ct, Washington). The best we did in interfacing with them was while stationed in Scotland. I met with C. Geer and C. Kent, and we were named "Country Coords to Americans living in Scotland". As CC we lived 30 minutes from Gartmore, but we had to call Ohio for classes and support.
After reading your post I think that I understand far better now, thank you. It did seem that walking into a limb office, everything was a business, and often it was like since I was not corpse I was an out-sider standing in the wrong office.
Getting classes to run within our twigs became harder and harder to do. Regardless of how many new students you had signed up, not being a club-member, made getting support very hard.
Making a 'stink' about it, once, in the California Limb office, I was finally pulled aside (by the LC) and told to make a copy of PFAL. So I would have it on hand, within my home and able to run it whenever I needed it. That way I would not be having to compete with all those corpse, each time I had new students for the class. He did seem to understand for that short moment, that seperate from all the corpse that he surrounded himself with, there really did exist TCs who ran twigs.
Edited to be more gentle:
I do not intend to be insulting to ALL Way Corps grads. I have not met all of them, nor do I intend to (within this life). My observations are limited to those individuals within which I have had dealings. I have been told that the majority of Way Corpse Grads were gentle kind and loving. Such has not been my observations, and I can only speak to that which I have both seen and heard. From among those Corpse of whom I have dealt, the majority of them ended as severely negative experiences. I had assumed that such was always the case with most Average Joe Believers. If anyone takes anything that I have written personally and feels insulted, I apologize. I can only speak concerning those of whom I have dealt with myself. On numerous occasions I have named Corpse Grads who have acted un-kindly and carried themselves in a manner which brought a bad name to Christianity. If you are not among those I have so named, then obviously you were never a complete idiot in your dealings with me. There were always many loving godly believers within TWI, who only wanted to worship G-d and serve others.
A territory coordinator usually had a few branches or other twig areas in his territory. For example, our territory included a couple of other towns in our part of the state that weren't quite big enough to be branches in and of themselves. They were considered "twig areas." The territory coord. position was mainly for communication purposes. The twig area leaders of those cities still worked pretty directly with our limb coordinator, as did all the branch coords. It's just that when there were mundane communications to pass along, or details to work out about class materials or those kinds of things, the territory coords handled it instead of the limb. It was more of an administrative position than anything else, meant to take the load of the limb.
Only states that had enough of a grad population had territories. We happened to be in Kansas which had tons of twigs all over the state. Our Limb Coordinator/Region Coordinator was "Mr. Way Tree." So he was pretty strick as to how things should work. Problem is, they didn't work very well.
Dang, don't get me started.
White Dove might remember more than I do about the whole "leadership set up" thing. And by the way, White Dove, I think "The Way of Kansas" stills owes us money. :D-->
According to my hazy memory of the old Way Tree class, they had a corporate structure set up before the numbers ever warranted it.
Twig Area: 3 or more twigs, less than 7
Branch: 7 or more twigs
Area: 4 branches
Section: 4 or more areas
Territory: 4 or more sections or a lrage geographic area within a limb
Limb: state, no matter how many twigs or grads were in it
Trunk: country; although I don't recall whether any other countries received the "trunk" designation
For example when I took PFAL in NY in '78 Long Island had 8-10 branches grouped under an Area Coordinator. There were 6 or 7 areas in NY State, although I don't think they all had the large number of branches that LI had. Eventually they started calling each of the areas "territories".
Eventually it seemed like territory coordinators were like ex10 said, mainly for communication purposes, an urban branch coordinator might oversee the "outlying" twigs in his part of the state in addition to his city branch.
I don't recall ever hearing of someone with the title of Section Leader or Coordinator.
In the '90's the titles became more diluted. Any area with more than one fellowship was called a branch.
I am curious, and not being mean by asking this, but I am curious.
You seem to defend the class and VPW with regularity but you bash the corps with the same frequency. I was just wondering how that can be?
Those of us who were decent people who loved God and went in the corps to serve God had to deal with the same ROTTEN corps you dealt with. I will grant you many of them were nasty, ego maniacs that caused much harm. But MANY if not most of the rotten corps were in the "inner - circle" or close to it (as they were sold out, just not brought into the "secrets" yet.)
But who do you think was leading the corps to be self-serving? Who do you think was telling us it was okay "to get your needs met" at the expense of the believer?
BTW you are correct about corps that were kept in smaller twig positions, those of us that were kept in "smaller" positions were the ones fighting against that school of thought. So, we did not rise as we were not "the cream of the crop". We were “bad” corps.
And as with you, with the exception of Joe Guarini and my experiences with Ralph D., most of the other experiences with those close to VPW were bad ones.
I was just wondering how you can be in two different camps? You seem to think the guy who was leading the corps in their "ways" was a great man, yet those he mentored and trained were all horrible? I am interested in why you seem to feel this way.
Those that sold out to VPW’s monkey business were the bad corps of whom you speak. Those who were nice to people and refused to use them, were viewed as the "bad corps" by TWI because we would not sell the Weirwille philosophy.
(This is not a mean spirited post I am just curious)
I think your recollection of the way tree stuff is right. The thing was, it varied from state to state, depending on population and geography. As I recall, the areas and sections were for more densely populated cities, that had large numbers of grads in fairly close proximity. The territory was more of a geographic designation.
The Way Tree set-up was never consistent at all. It just plain didn't work. For one thing, giving a large geographic "territory" to branch coords. put a whole heck of a lot of added pressure, on already overworked, not paid "volunteers." Often, we would be asked to make phones calls (to communicate stuff) to other corps or twig coords in our "territory," sometimes even every corps person in the state. Not only was it time consuming, but our long-distance phone bill was horrendous. Not to mention the cost of shipping class materials around, driving all over creation when needed, heck lots of things.
And we never got reimbursed for anything til I finally started saving all our receipts, phone bills, etc. and showed them to our limb/coord. and he realized that almost half our combined salaries were being spent on "ministry business." and that didn't even include the things our twig coords covered out of their own pockets. It was ridiculous. Especially considering that our branch alone sent in about 50,000 a year in ABS to HQ. (I didn't figure this out til years after leaving TWI. I was cleaning out an old file cabinet and found a couple of years worth of branch and territory "blue forms." Just for the heck of it, I decided to add them all up. Aye chihuahua!!) I would've been better off not knowing how much we sent in a year. It just got us hacked off at being "used" all over again.
Sorry for the derail, but I just figure it would be helpful for folks who didn't know, to see how things worked. Or didn't. :D-->
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rascal
You know...anither thing about many of those *good* leaders (not all)....I noticed that as soon as you were no longer in their area of *responsibility*....they were no longer your best friend, spiritual confidante, brother in christ....etc....you were no longer of any iomportance.
People you had learned to love...to pray for ...to do whatever you could for....when you saw them at roa...they had no use for you any more..
After a while I got pretty cynical about every leader who came along pretending to be my best buddy...wanting me to believe that they were vitally interested in my life ...wanting only the very best for me....blech
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Hope R.
I know quite a few good men and women who were in TWI serving as leaders who wanted nothing more than to love God and the people they served.
Over time, many of them became hardened and bitter (B*b M******n). Others who left TWI stayed wonderful and loving (Joe Guarini). But I can't think of too many in that catagory because I lost touch with most of them.
No one who I know of that was a loving and caring leader in TWI 1 or 2 and stayed in through TWI 3 & 4 remained that way. No one. And I watched them change over the years, too. It wasn't a pretty sight.
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alfakat
that is why a guy like Del Duncan did not last in twi. Del was not perfect, duh, none of us are, but Del was true: he never betrayed a confidence and he went to the mat for people. Contrast Del with Blo* M*****an -- self-explanatory...
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rascal
You know hope, I guess you have a point...some leaders did remain *real* but as you said it seems to me they were driven out or shunted to the side...
After a while it seemed like we were only a means to an end with our leadership...keep us built up.... *happy* so we would preform to standard...witnessing... classes...numbers were always the measuring stick and standard for excellence in any area I was in....seemed like we were only valuable as long as we were producing...
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CoolWaters
One sees this in corporate america every day.
One company I worked for awhile back would bring in the "bad boys" to give us all bad news. We'd all get up in arms and ready to quit. The company would let us grouse around for a few hours...even let us not perform our work.
Then the company would send in the "good guys" to "help" us do our jobs. Usually what would happen is the top producing team would be singled out and brought together to "discuss" how the news would have been better received. This gave a feeling of ownership to us worker bees. We'd give ideas of how to soften the blow and what would encourage us to continue producing even in the face of bad news. (Like one year it took 6 months before our raises were reflected in our paychecks.)
What happened is that the company took that information and turned it against our co-workers. People would be taken aside and instead of being given a reward for their work, they were chastised for not measuring up in "times of stress".
It was always the "good guys" who delivered such "counsel".
It was done to make people feel guilty for "thinking evil" about the person who was delivering the "counsel".
Yep, use the "good guys" to do the dirty work...that way people's feelings will be confused...then all you have to do is cash in on the confusion.
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diazbro
Hope R said:
I know quite a few good men and women who were in TWI serving as leaders who wanted nothing more than to love God and the people they served.
>>
Were all Way leaders bad ? Oh I don't know about that but in my expeience almost all of the bad I ever experienced while in TWI involved leaders. My experience is far from unique and I daresy more common than not.
In the early 70s I felt that many people had the proverbial "heart for God" but that became a stock rationalization for VPW's behavior and that of others - "Oh he has fatigued himself in the service of God's one true church so on occasion he might indulge a human desire. So what ? He had such a huge heart for God and his people ? No one is perfect you know ?".
I knew some great people in TWI and I certainly
give them (the people) credit for that. And obviously if it was bad from the start then
there would have been no way for TWI to have
flourished as it did. So while I certainly
believe that people were well meaning it certainly doesn't excuse them from the bad
things that they might have perpetrated on
others - either actively or passively by not
standing up and pointing out the growing corruption within the upper ranks.
Some people left while others stayed to see
if it could be worked out. I'm not blaming people who did that. But there were lots of
tyrannial leaders even as far back as the 70s
and certainly in the 80s. I left around 83 so
can't say much after that. the point is that
leaders have a responsibility to point out
the general problems within the organization
even if it means dealing with someone else's
personality problems. But that didn't happen
a lot - at least no in a fashion that made
major differences on the field.
And worse yet, some even took their frustrations
out on those in the field , asserting their
leadership positions to the avergage guy perhaps in reaction to the growing confusion
and deception at HQ. I could see this happening.
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rascal
Wow...*use* the good people to do the dirty work....damn if that doesn`t really make sense...and vpw n ha laughing their -sses off all the way to the bank...(to quote ha)
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Galen
Hope R said:
"I know quite a few good men and women who were in TWI serving as leaders who wanted nothing more than to love God and the people they served."
In theory, I wish such were the case. Such was NOT my experience however.
diazbro:
". . . I don't know about that but in my expeience almost all of the bad I ever experienced while in TWI involved leaders. My experience is far from unique and I daresy more common than not."
I could not agree more.
In my 18 year experience with TWI, the 'good' leaders were those who lived 100+ miles away from me. Each time that we were in small branch-areas, the Limb Coordinators usually could not drag themselves away from the inner-city huge branches, to be bothered with us out in the sparce under-populated areas. Without a doubt the Corpse-nazis who never knew my name, and never visited my twig, who the 'greatest' Men-of-God the ministry had.
Some Country Coordinators were okay, generally just the non-corpse ones though.
Usually it seemed to me, that the ministry worked well and was very loving so long as no corpse were involved.
Edited to be less insulting:
I do not intend to be insulting to ALL Way Corps grads. I have not met all of them, nor do I intend to (within this life). My observations are limited to those individuals within which I have had dealings. I have been told that the majority of Way Corpse Grads were gentle kind and loving. Such has not been my observations, and I can only speak to that which I have both seen and heard. From among those Corpse of whom I have dealt, the majority of them ended as severely negative experiences. I had assumed that such was always the case with most Average Joe Believers. If anyone takes anything that I have written personally and feels insulted, I apologize. I can only speak concerning those of whom I have dealt with myself. On numerous occasions I have named Corpse Grads who have acted un-kindly and carried themselves in a manner which brought a bad name to Christianity. If you are not among those I have so named, then obviously you were never a complete idiot in your dealings with me. There were always many loving godly believers within TWI, who only wanted to worship G-d and serve others.
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LuckyGirl
I think it mattered if you were a favorite of the "mean" ones or not. We were very favored & not put under a lot of scrutiny because, well, we towed the line. And we acted like them when the occasion presented itself.
Make no mistake, if you messed up, these guys would crawl done your throat too...favorite or not.
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A la prochaine
I always felt that if the good leaders were treating people with goodness it was because they were NOT doing what they were told to do by the higher ups.
Sooner or later they'd be sniffed out and given the TWI leadershi+ ultimatum... shape up or ship out.
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WordWolf
I think the uncorrupted leaders, the ones who genuinely wanted to do their
best for God, were local and not high up the "food chain".
For the most part, if you were in it to "climb the ladder", you didn't stop
at territory coordinator-you pushed for more. If you really were in it for
others, above territory coordinator the others become faceless, and that
can't be good. So, the best, in my opinion, were kept down due to their
"ambition" to serve, which only helped us because they could make a
difference in OUR lives since we could find them.
This is not to say every territory, branch or tc was so motivated
(some were already trying to climb the ladder), but I think that's where
most of the uncorrupted leaders were.
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Galen
WordWolf:
"I think the uncorrupted leaders, the ones who genuinely wanted to do their
best for God, were local and not high up the "food chain".
For the most part, if you were in it to "climb the ladder", you didn't stop
at territory coordinator-you pushed for more. If you really were in it for
others, above territory coordinator the others become faceless, and that
can't be good. So, the best, in my opinion, were kept down due to their
"ambition" to serve, which only helped us because they could make a
difference in OUR lives since we could find them."
I could agree with that summation.
I dont recall ever being within a twig that was led by a corpse person, but I do recall hearing that there were some corpse who were just Twig-coordinators. On the few occassions that I was traveling and found myself in a 'heavily populated area' (meaning a city with dozens of corpse living in it), it did seem that the 'lower' corpse were much nicer and could even possibly be considered human. Almost as human as a regular beleiver.
So it would be a reasonable idea that the 'nasty / evil / boot-licking / a$$hole' characteristics may have been painted on thicker as a person climbed higher up the ladder.
Edited to be more gentle:
I do not intend to be insulting to ALL Way Corps grads. I have not met all of them, nor do I intend to (within this life). My observations are limited to those individuals within which I have had dealings. I have been told that the majority of Way Corpse Grads were gentle kind and loving. Such has not been my observations, and I can only speak to that which I have both seen and heard. From among those Corpse of whom I have dealt, the majority of them ended as severely negative experiences. I had assumed that such was always the case with most Average Joe Believers. If anyone takes anything that I have written personally and feels insulted, I apologize. I can only speak concerning those of whom I have dealt with myself. On numerous occasions I have named Corpse Grads who have acted un-kindly and carried themselves in a manner which brought a bad name to Christianity. If you are not among those I have so named, then obviously you were never a complete idiot in your dealings with me. There were always many loving godly believers within TWI, who only wanted to worship G-d and serve others.
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Tom Strange
Galen said:
I can agree with you to a point Galen. If I remember that you said "it would be reasonable"... yeah... it would be... but remember, that still doesn't mean ALL corps... maybe most or all of the ones you came in contact with were like that, and it makes me sad and sick...Remember, I've been out for over 20 years... I didn't see and personally experience all of the evil that you and others did... I left when I first sniffed it... but I believe it happened and I believe it still happens...
I would like for you to keep in mind who taught all of the "nasty/evil/boot-licking/a$$hole" corps that you encountered... either veepee or craig... and it ultimately goes back to veepee because that's who craig thought he was emulating... they were the ones who set the examples of how a leader was to behave...
not ALL corps were "nasty/evil/boot-licking/a$$hole"... look around here... there's quite a few around here who weren't...
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outofdafog
"I always felt that if the good leaders were treating people with goodness it was because they were NOT doing what they were told to do by the higher ups.
Sooner or later they'd be sniffed out and given the TWI leadershi+ ultimatum... shape up or ship out."
True, true, true
Two corps couples that I know of - great love and compassion for their people
R*b and Kat*y H*owe
Nat* and N*ancy Pi*lsbur*
Both just out of the blue - gone. If you guys are out there, we love you and you did a GREAT job loving us. These people really loved Gog and the people they oversaw. It was so obvious.
outofdafog
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outofdafog
"not ALL corps were "nasty/evil/boot-licking/a$$hole"... look around here... there's quite a few around here who weren't..."
True, true, true - the four mentioned above were not even close to that kind of junk.
And they loved God, not Gog (oops).
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excathedra
diaz said
this reminds me of one time (of a few) VF screamed at me like i was a dog. i "told on him" ha ha ha ha and was told that he was under a lot of spiritual pressure (he was the universe leader or something). i said, well if he can't handle the pressure, he should get another job. ha ha ha ha ha what an asshooleLink to comment
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ex10
wordwolf
I think your observations are pretty astute. From my experience as a branch coordinator, and then territory coordinator, it seems that these "leadership positions" were a real dividing point.
Let me explain. I think the most difficult "position" in TWI was that of a branch coordinator. I'm talking back in the day, when a branch was 7 to 12 twigs. Usually, branch coords were not salaried staff employees, but "volunteers." So they had to do everything else the twig coord's were doing, ie, hold down a full time job, support your family, haul kids around to ball games, run classes, attend "ministry" functions, etc. The demands were many, and ya had to be able to function in "real life."
Step up to territory coord. Then maybe, you got some kind of financial reimbursement, as in "ministry" related expenses, but usually you weren't yet a fully vested Way employee. If you were lucky, you got a few bucks to cover gas and your long distance phone bills, and if your "believing wasn't big enough" for a FREE room to hold meetings for 120 or so people, you might get reimbursed for a room rental fee.
Once a postion above territory coord got offered, the decision had to be made whether to "full time with the ministry" or not. Those who chose to go "full time" had to be pretty sold out to the organization, because now they were employees, usually and dependent on towing the company line for their bread and butter.
The branch and territory coords were still "volunteers" and seemed to be more willing to speak up and be assertive about policies and proceedures, cause we were busting our buts doing everything the regular twiggies were doing and more. Once the waypay started coming in, things changed drastically. Catch my drift?
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WhiteDove
Ex-10 Catch my drift?
I think so! Are you saying you banked all those room rental checks into your swiss account? Dang I wondered where they all went to.
:D-->
Hey a Mr. Howard Johnson called for you something about a rather large bill.....
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Galen
ex10:
". . . From my experience as a branch coordinator, and then territory coordinator, it seems that these "leadership positions" were a real dividing point."
We are in agreement.
"Let me explain. I think the most difficult "position" in TWI was that of a branch coordinator. I'm talking back in the day, when a branch was 7 to 12 twigs. Usually, branch coords were not salaried staff employees, but "volunteers." So they had to do everything else the twig coord's were doing, ie, hold down a full time job, support your family, haul kids around to ball games, run classes, attend "ministry" functions, etc. The demands were many, and ya had to be able to function in "real life."
I seem to recall that was about right. In my limited experience within TWI, we were in 2 different branches. In 1980 and again in 1983. One BC was a interim-corpse WOW, and the second was a Corpse-grad couple. Both had to work, though I seem to think that the couple was able to submit some expenses for compensation.
The remainder of our experiences, we were running a twig and interfaced with limb directly. It seemed like at annual-limb-meetings we were usually labeled 'out-lying areas'.
"Step up to territory coord. Then maybe, you got some kind of financial reimbursement, as in "ministry" related expenses, but usually you weren't yet a fully vested Way employee. If you were lucky, you got a few bucks to cover gas and your long distance phone bills, and if your "believing wasn't big enough" for a FREE room to hold meetings for 120 or so people, you might get reimbursed for a room rental fee."
I dont recall ever interfacing with anyone who called themselves a 'Territory Coord'.
"Once a postion above territory coord got offered, the decision had to be made whether to "full time with the ministry" or not. Those who chose to go "full time" had to be pretty sold out to the organization, because now they were employees, usually and dependent on towing the company line for their bread and butter. . . . Once the waypay started coming in, things changed drastically."
Yes, I see entirely. We have dealt with other Twig Coord(TC), 2 Branch Coord(BC), and with various Limb Coords(LC) in different limbs (Connecticut, Virginia, California, Ct, Washington). The best we did in interfacing with them was while stationed in Scotland. I met with C. Geer and C. Kent, and we were named "Country Coords to Americans living in Scotland". As CC we lived 30 minutes from Gartmore, but we had to call Ohio for classes and support.
After reading your post I think that I understand far better now, thank you. It did seem that walking into a limb office, everything was a business, and often it was like since I was not corpse I was an out-sider standing in the wrong office.
Getting classes to run within our twigs became harder and harder to do. Regardless of how many new students you had signed up, not being a club-member, made getting support very hard.
Making a 'stink' about it, once, in the California Limb office, I was finally pulled aside (by the LC) and told to make a copy of PFAL. So I would have it on hand, within my home and able to run it whenever I needed it. That way I would not be having to compete with all those corpse, each time I had new students for the class. He did seem to understand for that short moment, that seperate from all the corpse that he surrounded himself with, there really did exist TCs who ran twigs.
Edited to be more gentle:
I do not intend to be insulting to ALL Way Corps grads. I have not met all of them, nor do I intend to (within this life). My observations are limited to those individuals within which I have had dealings. I have been told that the majority of Way Corpse Grads were gentle kind and loving. Such has not been my observations, and I can only speak to that which I have both seen and heard. From among those Corpse of whom I have dealt, the majority of them ended as severely negative experiences. I had assumed that such was always the case with most Average Joe Believers. If anyone takes anything that I have written personally and feels insulted, I apologize. I can only speak concerning those of whom I have dealt with myself. On numerous occasions I have named Corpse Grads who have acted un-kindly and carried themselves in a manner which brought a bad name to Christianity. If you are not among those I have so named, then obviously you were never a complete idiot in your dealings with me. There were always many loving godly believers within TWI, who only wanted to worship G-d and serve others.
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ex10
Galen
A territory coordinator usually had a few branches or other twig areas in his territory. For example, our territory included a couple of other towns in our part of the state that weren't quite big enough to be branches in and of themselves. They were considered "twig areas." The territory coord. position was mainly for communication purposes. The twig area leaders of those cities still worked pretty directly with our limb coordinator, as did all the branch coords. It's just that when there were mundane communications to pass along, or details to work out about class materials or those kinds of things, the territory coords handled it instead of the limb. It was more of an administrative position than anything else, meant to take the load of the limb.
Only states that had enough of a grad population had territories. We happened to be in Kansas which had tons of twigs all over the state. Our Limb Coordinator/Region Coordinator was "Mr. Way Tree." So he was pretty strick as to how things should work. Problem is, they didn't work very well.
Dang, don't get me started.
White Dove might remember more than I do about the whole "leadership set up" thing. And by the way, White Dove, I think "The Way of Kansas" stills owes us money.
:D-->
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WhiteDove
Ex 10
I think the check is in the mail-20 % for Abundant Sharing of course.
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Oakspear
Slight Derailment for boring Way Tree info:
According to my hazy memory of the old Way Tree class, they had a corporate structure set up before the numbers ever warranted it.
- Twig Area: 3 or more twigs, less than 7
- Branch: 7 or more twigs
- Area: 4 branches
- Section: 4 or more areas
- Territory: 4 or more sections or a lrage geographic area within a limb
- Limb: state, no matter how many twigs or grads were in it
- Trunk: country; although I don't recall whether any other countries received the "trunk" designation
For example when I took PFAL in NY in '78 Long Island had 8-10 branches grouped under an Area Coordinator. There were 6 or 7 areas in NY State, although I don't think they all had the large number of branches that LI had. Eventually they started calling each of the areas "territories".Eventually it seemed like territory coordinators were like ex10 said, mainly for communication purposes, an urban branch coordinator might oversee the "outlying" twigs in his part of the state in addition to his city branch.
I don't recall ever hearing of someone with the title of Section Leader or Coordinator.
In the '90's the titles became more diluted. Any area with more than one fellowship was called a branch.
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Dot Matrix
Galen
I am curious, and not being mean by asking this, but I am curious.
You seem to defend the class and VPW with regularity but you bash the corps with the same frequency. I was just wondering how that can be?
Those of us who were decent people who loved God and went in the corps to serve God had to deal with the same ROTTEN corps you dealt with. I will grant you many of them were nasty, ego maniacs that caused much harm. But MANY if not most of the rotten corps were in the "inner - circle" or close to it (as they were sold out, just not brought into the "secrets" yet.)
But who do you think was leading the corps to be self-serving? Who do you think was telling us it was okay "to get your needs met" at the expense of the believer?
BTW you are correct about corps that were kept in smaller twig positions, those of us that were kept in "smaller" positions were the ones fighting against that school of thought. So, we did not rise as we were not "the cream of the crop". We were “bad” corps.
And as with you, with the exception of Joe Guarini and my experiences with Ralph D., most of the other experiences with those close to VPW were bad ones.
I was just wondering how you can be in two different camps? You seem to think the guy who was leading the corps in their "ways" was a great man, yet those he mentored and trained were all horrible? I am interested in why you seem to feel this way.
Those that sold out to VPW’s monkey business were the bad corps of whom you speak. Those who were nice to people and refused to use them, were viewed as the "bad corps" by TWI because we would not sell the Weirwille philosophy.
(This is not a mean spirited post I am just curious)
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ex10
Oak
I think your recollection of the way tree stuff is right. The thing was, it varied from state to state, depending on population and geography. As I recall, the areas and sections were for more densely populated cities, that had large numbers of grads in fairly close proximity. The territory was more of a geographic designation.
The Way Tree set-up was never consistent at all. It just plain didn't work. For one thing, giving a large geographic "territory" to branch coords. put a whole heck of a lot of added pressure, on already overworked, not paid "volunteers." Often, we would be asked to make phones calls (to communicate stuff) to other corps or twig coords in our "territory," sometimes even every corps person in the state. Not only was it time consuming, but our long-distance phone bill was horrendous. Not to mention the cost of shipping class materials around, driving all over creation when needed, heck lots of things.
And we never got reimbursed for anything til I finally started saving all our receipts, phone bills, etc. and showed them to our limb/coord. and he realized that almost half our combined salaries were being spent on "ministry business." and that didn't even include the things our twig coords covered out of their own pockets. It was ridiculous. Especially considering that our branch alone sent in about 50,000 a year in ABS to HQ. (I didn't figure this out til years after leaving TWI. I was cleaning out an old file cabinet and found a couple of years worth of branch and territory "blue forms." Just for the heck of it, I decided to add them all up. Aye chihuahua!!) I would've been better off not knowing how much we sent in a year. It just got us hacked off at being "used" all over again.
Sorry for the derail, but I just figure it would be helpful for folks who didn't know, to see how things worked. Or didn't.
:D-->
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