Whatever "mark and avoid" really means...twi got it wrong, I'm sure. They used it deceitfully, as a tool, to get rid of folks that were a threat to them...or just to be punitive if you didn't kiss the right a$$.
Whatever thes right and wrongs there are major differences between M&A and excommunication.
As Temple Lady has already pointed out the LDS practice (although it can be for other reasons besides the ones stated also) it is not a way of shunning or avoiding people. Excommunication in the Roman Catholic Church works on a broadly similar principle too - one is excluded from the sacraments but still allowed to attend.
TWI was not a sacramentally based organisation - communion maybe once a year for example. TWI believed that once you had heard the Word of Truth (as defined by TWI) and rejected it (you didn't blindly do everything leadership told you) that you were a cancer, posessed by Satan, and should be delivered up to him.
I was KICKED OUT of the LDS church at the ripe ol' age of 13 for refusing to answer the president's questions when I had the annual meeting with him. He asked about some things that I thought were NONE of his business - I hadn't done anything wrong at all - but didn't like the invasion by someone who didn't know my first name... He told me not to bother coming back until I would "submit" and answer his questions...
...but I digress...
Amazingly enough, I wasn't kicked out of TWI. I was placed on "spiritual probation" when my x-husband was "smoked out" (homo hunt). I wanted to stand with TWI after that and left him. I WAS AFRAID OF WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF I WAS SENT OUTSIDE THE GATE - OUTSIDE THE HOUSEHOLD!
LCM taught, ranted, promised and screamed about how bad things were outside of the Household of God. He promised there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth (funny, that was going on INSIDE the Household too, now that I think about it...) He and other leaders told stories of people who had lost everything, hit rock bottom, returned totally to their "old man" ways and even DIED for leaving TWI.
The funny thing was that even people who had been "kicked out" were presented as having left by their own choosing. "Had they done what they were told to do by leadership they would still be here today" yaddy yaddy yaddy...
After people left it was presented to the fellowship - IF it was mentioned at all - that they had left of their own choosing. Leadership would always go on to spin how they were protecting the Household and how that person was (usually) a conduit for the adversary, or some such muck... In VERY few cases did I ever see this as true.
M&A is a control tool - look at the threats by LCM and others who taught about life outside the Household. Look at how it was used for everything from "homo" to "messy house" - they were out of control with it!
So, in answer to TempleLady's question - the only profit, as I see it now, is to the person who got M&A'ed from TWI! For many it took time away from the ministry to realize that life was really better without the slave-master-leadership bugging them about every little thing in life.
If everyone is afraid to talk to someone who has left it keeps the sources of information down to one. Plus if you ~do~ accidentally hear from another source they are automatically classified as liars and possessed so their warnings and logic can be dismissed. It's a very useful tool.
any group that tries to tell you what your relationship with God is "in your heart" is full of crap and overstepping their bounds... they can decide whether or not they want to fellowship with you, and you with them... but no one else can tell you where your heart is with God, that's something only you can do...
quote:You don't try to co-exist with gangrene; you cut it out.
Rev. Craig Martindale
February 1990
Were the folks who were marked and avoided gangrene? Well no, they were (and are) still children of God; I guess the point he was trying to make is, if you're going to think of Craig as a #1 screw up jerk who's blown it so bad that things'll never change, perhaps its best you go fellowship somewhere else.
Why folks continue to complain about it when Craig was giving them their leave and freeing them from the evil twi, is beyond me. If you think twi is/was so bad, go...leave...good bye. That's all mark and avoid is. Seems pretty reasonable to folks who everlastingly whine and complain. There's ur out.
"TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow."
hmmmm... I wasn't around in the mark and avoid times OM, but from what I've read here it went a lot further than that... not the simple "black and white" that I get as the impression of your statement... sure there were those who were thoroughly disgusted with LCM's leadership, but from what I've read here there was a lot of witch hunting and needless hurt done to people... some of whom may not have agreed with 'everything' going down, but certainly had a heart to just want to 'do it right'... at least that's the impression I get...
My best friend didn't do anything wrong. The leaders just didn't like him and every little thing he did or said was twisted out of proportion and if he made a mistake it was magnified and scrutinized.
He didn't want to leave TWI. He was afraid to leave TWI. He was kicked out of TWI and he lost all his friends and some family members.
I saw what was happening and I didn't quit talking to him, but I was afraid to see him in public anywhere because I didn't want to get in trouble for talking to him if anyone was to see me with him.
quote: I was KICKED OUT of the LDS church at the ripe ol' age of 13 for refusing to answer the president's questions when I had the annual meeting with him. He asked about some things that I thought were NONE of his business - I hadn't done anything wrong at all - but didn't like the invasion by someone who didn't know my first name... He told me not to bother coming back until I would "submit" and answer his questions...
No offense taken--
There are bad bishops just as there are good bishops--My bet is that he was trying to scare you (very inappropriate, not professional )
Excommunication is a formal meeting with the entire presidency--I bet your name is still on membership roles
YOu can write a letter to Salt Lake and ask to have it removed if you like
Or if the only reason you've been staying away is because you thought you were excommunivated and would like to come back --contact your local stake presidency --WE WANT YOU!!!
BUt either way-I luv you Chas for your wisdom and your humor--Please stick around Greasespot forever OKAY??!??
quote:Why folks continue to complain about it when Craig was giving them their leave and freeing them from the evil twi, is beyond me.
I don't think anyone is complaining about getting kicked out in 1989. Heck, I'm grateful it happened. Spared me the wrath to come, if you catch my meaning.
For anyone to treat a 13 year old in such a way, no matter who they are or what they represent is especially reprehensible.
But TempleLady is right - you have no been excommunicated - that is a formal process involving a church court to which you would have been invited and you would also have received a formal notification of the result.
So you would still be "on the books" of the LDS Church.
There are always those in different organisations who like to exercise "unrighteous domination", who think they know more than they know and can do more than they can do - TWI took this to especially ridiculous extremes.
quote:Rom 16:17, 18: Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
quote:Matthew 18:15-17: Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
These are just a few of the verses that TWI uses to justify their M&A policy. The trouble, of course, is that LCM interpreted these verses the context of TWI - as if the bible were written strictly to TWI's participants.
If I recall the gist of his teaching correctly, the people who teach other doctrines are deceitful and devilish – people who don't care about God or his people®.
IMO, that was taken to mean anyone who has left TWI that is part of a spin-off group, or who publicly criticizes them (like - on the internet, f’rinstance), or anyone who didn't obey their leadership when they were told to move, or get a new job, or any other "suggestion" that may have been made to them they didn’t follow, or anyone who was kicked out for any reason at all!
Because TWI hasn't changed any of LCM's teachings on this matter, their policies haven't changed either.
Of course "the doctrine which ye have learned" = "the present truth"® . Therefore if the things that he taught on the subject are still being practiced, then they still bow to his authority. He might as well still be there. But heck, as long as his classes are being taught, his books are being sold, and his orders are still being followed, in a way, he is still there!
As Hope points out, there is a godly purpose for "marking and avoiding." And there were many, as you point out, who were openly defying the leadership of TWI, yet expected to keep their ministerial posts. LCM was wrong to demand an oath of fealty, but he was the President of the organization. If I spent all my time publicly defaming the leaders of the company I work for, I shouldn't be surprised if I were asked to leave it.
Unfortunately, many of us WANTED to stay in but were forced to leave for reasons which weren't biblical or even reasonable. I suppose I should post "my story" elsewhere, but because I wasn't a homosexual and had no debt (and I tithed AND abundantly shared), they had to find some reason to get rid of me, because I kept asking too many questions. In my final "drumhead" meeting, I was chastised by the branch coordinator for 1.) leading songs that not everybody knew; 2.) refusing to sell my house (which I owned free and clear) and move into a Way Home; and 3.) questioning LCM's statement that the only reason for a space program is military dominance! (Ironically, my twig coordinator at the time worked for NASA! Actually, a perfectly good reason for a space program is Psalm 19:1!)
Anyway, I was expelled. My fiancee was given the "option" of leaving me or TWI. Praise God, she chose the latter -- we've been married over six years now, and fellowshipping with other believers in the Houston area.
So, OM, was my being M&A'ed a bad thing? YES. It hurt horribly, and it never should have happened. Am I living a fulfilling life outside of TWI, YES.
I don't recall it being labeled as such JT... similar things happened, though rarely in my experience... during my time, people were given "more slack" if you will... the focus was on building the ministry, not tearing it down... opening doors, not closing them...
mz - I hear what you're saying... I've been there, too. I didn't have a lot of family in TWI, just my x-husband (we didn't divorce until after he was M&A'ed - it was after the divorce that I left TWI - I wasn't M&A'ed). I did have a lot of friends - some closer than family. Many of them are still in - a few have left.
Perhaps your situation is different - I don't wish to sound judgemental - but for me it was a case of where I'd be happier. It scared the crap out of me at the time to do it because I'd bought a lot of the teaching about how dangerous it was to be outside the household. I found it was awkward, a little lonely at first but the people who really loved me have kept in touch. I didn't loose any friends, I think... we're just not in close contact anymore.
I wasn't M&A'ed when I left - it was my own choosing - however, I felt the new leadership in the area had an agenda and treated me very disrespectfully - no love or grace was shown to me. I went from being someone who was considered sharp to the biggest problem child in a month - all with a change in RC/LC when WC assignments were done... I felt torn about making the decision to stay or leave. Then I realized I had more friends who were outside TWI than were left - plus many of the posters at Waydale were very supportive.
Mz - my heart goes out to you - you're in a tough situation, I'm sure. Maybe you should ask yourself 'Am I really loved and why?'
I wasn't formally excommunicated - I didn't say I was - I was told not to come back until I was ready to respond to some nosey questions. Yes, the president of the church was out of control, I'm sure. I not interested in returning, to be truthful. The things the LDS church inspired in me for my realationship with God were pursued when I was in TWI (teaching, going WOW, etc.)and I'm happy with those outcomes.
Chas - the guy was merely the ward bishop or the branch president and was clearly an a$$hole. No you were not excommunicated and your being told to keep away would not have endeared him to his stake president - heck even excommunicated or disfellowshipped members are encouraged to still attend church!
But interested in returning or not, you are still "on the books" as far as SLC is concerned.
Unlike TWI, such an order was only a local one and not binding upon the whole organisation.
I had my name removed by writing a letter so am not carrying a torch for the LDS, but I thought in fairness this needed to be pointed out.
I wasn't around when M&A was activated. Thank God. I do know by experiance what is like to be emotionally cut off and physically isolated. My mother used this tatic over and over again and believe me it is effective. Great means of control and instills greater codependency. :(-->
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GrouchoMarxJr
Whatever "mark and avoid" really means...twi got it wrong, I'm sure. They used it deceitfully, as a tool, to get rid of folks that were a threat to them...or just to be punitive if you didn't kiss the right a$$.
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WordWolf
The so-called profit in Mark and Avoid was the pressure to conform.
As it was originally used by twi in 1989/1990, it was the penalty levied on
those leaders who refused to swear an oath of loyalty to lcm when he demanded
one, no questions asked. Refusal, hesitation, even a desire to discuss it
based on biblical principles was treated the same-Mark and Avoid.
In plain English, firing them and ostracizing them.
As it developed, it became a more general tool to enforce conformity. Someone
a conscientious objector or not 100% supporting the bod? Kick them out.
The concidence of a lot of people kicked out as they approached their
retirement years-thus removing them from twi's sphere of responsibility once
they'd bled out their lifesblood for the organization has been noted by a few.
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Trefor Heywood
Whatever thes right and wrongs there are major differences between M&A and excommunication.
As Temple Lady has already pointed out the LDS practice (although it can be for other reasons besides the ones stated also) it is not a way of shunning or avoiding people. Excommunication in the Roman Catholic Church works on a broadly similar principle too - one is excluded from the sacraments but still allowed to attend.
TWI was not a sacramentally based organisation - communion maybe once a year for example. TWI believed that once you had heard the Word of Truth (as defined by TWI) and rejected it (you didn't blindly do everything leadership told you) that you were a cancer, posessed by Satan, and should be delivered up to him.
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ChasUFarley
No offence to you, TempleLady but...
I was KICKED OUT of the LDS church at the ripe ol' age of 13 for refusing to answer the president's questions when I had the annual meeting with him. He asked about some things that I thought were NONE of his business - I hadn't done anything wrong at all - but didn't like the invasion by someone who didn't know my first name... He told me not to bother coming back until I would "submit" and answer his questions...
...but I digress...
Amazingly enough, I wasn't kicked out of TWI. I was placed on "spiritual probation" when my x-husband was "smoked out" (homo hunt). I wanted to stand with TWI after that and left him. I WAS AFRAID OF WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF I WAS SENT OUTSIDE THE GATE - OUTSIDE THE HOUSEHOLD!
LCM taught, ranted, promised and screamed about how bad things were outside of the Household of God. He promised there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth (funny, that was going on INSIDE the Household too, now that I think about it...) He and other leaders told stories of people who had lost everything, hit rock bottom, returned totally to their "old man" ways and even DIED for leaving TWI.
The funny thing was that even people who had been "kicked out" were presented as having left by their own choosing. "Had they done what they were told to do by leadership they would still be here today" yaddy yaddy yaddy...
After people left it was presented to the fellowship - IF it was mentioned at all - that they had left of their own choosing. Leadership would always go on to spin how they were protecting the Household and how that person was (usually) a conduit for the adversary, or some such muck... In VERY few cases did I ever see this as true.
M&A is a control tool - look at the threats by LCM and others who taught about life outside the Household. Look at how it was used for everything from "homo" to "messy house" - they were out of control with it!
So, in answer to TempleLady's question - the only profit, as I see it now, is to the person who got M&A'ed from TWI! For many it took time away from the ministry to realize that life was really better without the slave-master-leadership bugging them about every little thing in life.
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JustThinking
I think that if done out of love and a genuine desire to protect people from truly harmful types such as pedophiles, absolutely.
Did TWI do anything like that? Not that I saw. A LOT done on emotion. Not much with thinking or love. Bad combination.
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WordWolf
Sure would have been nice if that HAD been what it was used
for, wouldn't it?
Instead, it was used to drive off the godly while the
organization protected molesters and pedophiles who knew how to
suck up to the boss....
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Flay Minion
If everyone is afraid to talk to someone who has left it keeps the sources of information down to one. Plus if you ~do~ accidentally hear from another source they are automatically classified as liars and possessed so their warnings and logic can be dismissed. It's a very useful tool.
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Tom Strange
any group that tries to tell you what your relationship with God is "in your heart" is full of crap and overstepping their bounds... they can decide whether or not they want to fellowship with you, and you with them... but no one else can tell you where your heart is with God, that's something only you can do...
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oldiesman
February 1990
Were the folks who were marked and avoided gangrene? Well no, they were (and are) still children of God; I guess the point he was trying to make is, if you're going to think of Craig as a #1 screw up jerk who's blown it so bad that things'll never change, perhaps its best you go fellowship somewhere else.
Why folks continue to complain about it when Craig was giving them their leave and freeing them from the evil twi, is beyond me. If you think twi is/was so bad, go...leave...good bye. That's all mark and avoid is. Seems pretty reasonable to folks who everlastingly whine and complain. There's ur out.
"TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow."
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Tom Strange
hmmmm... I wasn't around in the mark and avoid times OM, but from what I've read here it went a lot further than that... not the simple "black and white" that I get as the impression of your statement... sure there were those who were thoroughly disgusted with LCM's leadership, but from what I've read here there was a lot of witch hunting and needless hurt done to people... some of whom may not have agreed with 'everything' going down, but certainly had a heart to just want to 'do it right'... at least that's the impression I get...
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simpleton
My best friend didn't do anything wrong. The leaders just didn't like him and every little thing he did or said was twisted out of proportion and if he made a mistake it was magnified and scrutinized.
He didn't want to leave TWI. He was afraid to leave TWI. He was kicked out of TWI and he lost all his friends and some family members.
I saw what was happening and I didn't quit talking to him, but I was afraid to see him in public anywhere because I didn't want to get in trouble for talking to him if anyone was to see me with him.
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templelady
Chas
No offense taken--
There are bad bishops just as there are good bishops--My bet is that he was trying to scare you (very inappropriate, not professional )
Excommunication is a formal meeting with the entire presidency--I bet your name is still on membership roles
YOu can write a letter to Salt Lake and ask to have it removed if you like
Or if the only reason you've been staying away is because you thought you were excommunivated and would like to come back --contact your local stake presidency --WE WANT YOU!!!
BUt either way-I luv you Chas for your wisdom and your humor--Please stick around Greasespot forever OKAY??!??
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Raf
I don't think anyone is complaining about getting kicked out in 1989. Heck, I'm grateful it happened. Spared me the wrath to come, if you catch my meaning.
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Trefor Heywood
For anyone to treat a 13 year old in such a way, no matter who they are or what they represent is especially reprehensible.
But TempleLady is right - you have no been excommunicated - that is a formal process involving a church court to which you would have been invited and you would also have received a formal notification of the result.
So you would still be "on the books" of the LDS Church.
There are always those in different organisations who like to exercise "unrighteous domination", who think they know more than they know and can do more than they can do - TWI took this to especially ridiculous extremes.
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Hope R.
These are just a few of the verses that TWI uses to justify their M&A policy. The trouble, of course, is that LCM interpreted these verses the context of TWI - as if the bible were written strictly to TWI's participants.
If I recall the gist of his teaching correctly, the people who teach other doctrines are deceitful and devilish – people who don't care about God or his people®.
IMO, that was taken to mean anyone who has left TWI that is part of a spin-off group, or who publicly criticizes them (like - on the internet, f’rinstance), or anyone who didn't obey their leadership when they were told to move, or get a new job, or any other "suggestion" that may have been made to them they didn’t follow, or anyone who was kicked out for any reason at all!
Because TWI hasn't changed any of LCM's teachings on this matter, their policies haven't changed either.
Of course "the doctrine which ye have learned" = "the present truth"® . Therefore if the things that he taught on the subject are still being practiced, then they still bow to his authority. He might as well still be there. But heck, as long as his classes are being taught, his books are being sold, and his orders are still being followed, in a way, he is still there!
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GeorgeStGeorge
OldiesMan,
As Hope points out, there is a godly purpose for "marking and avoiding." And there were many, as you point out, who were openly defying the leadership of TWI, yet expected to keep their ministerial posts. LCM was wrong to demand an oath of fealty, but he was the President of the organization. If I spent all my time publicly defaming the leaders of the company I work for, I shouldn't be surprised if I were asked to leave it.
Unfortunately, many of us WANTED to stay in but were forced to leave for reasons which weren't biblical or even reasonable. I suppose I should post "my story" elsewhere, but because I wasn't a homosexual and had no debt (and I tithed AND abundantly shared), they had to find some reason to get rid of me, because I kept asking too many questions. In my final "drumhead" meeting, I was chastised by the branch coordinator for 1.) leading songs that not everybody knew; 2.) refusing to sell my house (which I owned free and clear) and move into a Way Home; and 3.) questioning LCM's statement that the only reason for a space program is military dominance! (Ironically, my twig coordinator at the time worked for NASA! Actually, a perfectly good reason for a space program is Psalm 19:1!)
Anyway, I was expelled. My fiancee was given the "option" of leaving me or TWI. Praise God, she chose the latter -- we've been married over six years now, and fellowshipping with other believers in the Houston area.
So, OM, was my being M&A'ed a bad thing? YES. It hurt horribly, and it never should have happened. Am I living a fulfilling life outside of TWI, YES.
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JustThinking
My time was all TWI II. Was there much or any M&A in TWI I? Just curious.
JT
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Tom Strange
I don't recall it being labeled as such JT... similar things happened, though rarely in my experience... during my time, people were given "more slack" if you will... the focus was on building the ministry, not tearing it down... opening doors, not closing them...
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WordWolf
JT,
My understanding is that in the early days, one or 2 people vanished here and
there, but it wasn't organized, and it wasn't many people. (A few people who
would have blown a whistle were made to vanish before they could do so. Before
the internet, that was very effective.)
It wasn't until lcm drew his line in the sand in 1989 that there was anything
resembling a policy, and it wasn't until Spring of 1989 that he started to use
the mark and avoid verse (without the context and following verse that explained
it.)
If I were to guess from here, lcm got tired of all the information coming to
light, and all the dissent he was facing (at local and leader levels, on
subjects like adultery, the tithe, etc) that he decided to start enacting
draconian rules in overreaction. It's a little like Bill Cosby saying that
parents settle kids arguing that one touched another by declaring
"I don't want anyone in this house to touch another person as long as you live."
So, any disagreement with lcm meant you had to leave. Any hesitation or
independent thought meant you had to leave. Eventually, anything less than
cowering in a prostrate manner before local and national leaders meant you had to
leave.
Of course, on your way out, you were told you'd die horribly, you were outside
the realm of people who care about God, etc, and others were told you were
evil.
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mzimagine
My question is:
Does Mark and Avoid work?
Is it an effective tool that prevents people from leaving?
Do you know anyone who will not leave because they do not want to be mark & avoided?
I do.
Relationships are more important to people that accuracy. Losing family and friends over truth is no easy matter.
What do you think about this statement?
I would rather be loved and wrong than unloved and right.
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ChasUFarley
mz - I hear what you're saying... I've been there, too. I didn't have a lot of family in TWI, just my x-husband (we didn't divorce until after he was M&A'ed - it was after the divorce that I left TWI - I wasn't M&A'ed). I did have a lot of friends - some closer than family. Many of them are still in - a few have left.
Perhaps your situation is different - I don't wish to sound judgemental - but for me it was a case of where I'd be happier. It scared the crap out of me at the time to do it because I'd bought a lot of the teaching about how dangerous it was to be outside the household. I found it was awkward, a little lonely at first but the people who really loved me have kept in touch. I didn't loose any friends, I think... we're just not in close contact anymore.
I wasn't M&A'ed when I left - it was my own choosing - however, I felt the new leadership in the area had an agenda and treated me very disrespectfully - no love or grace was shown to me. I went from being someone who was considered sharp to the biggest problem child in a month - all with a change in RC/LC when WC assignments were done... I felt torn about making the decision to stay or leave. Then I realized I had more friends who were outside TWI than were left - plus many of the posters at Waydale were very supportive.
Mz - my heart goes out to you - you're in a tough situation, I'm sure. Maybe you should ask yourself 'Am I really loved and why?'
I hope the love is for the right reasons.
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ChasUFarley
To the LDS posters -
I wasn't formally excommunicated - I didn't say I was - I was told not to come back until I was ready to respond to some nosey questions. Yes, the president of the church was out of control, I'm sure. I not interested in returning, to be truthful. The things the LDS church inspired in me for my realationship with God were pursued when I was in TWI (teaching, going WOW, etc.)and I'm happy with those outcomes.
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Trefor Heywood
Chas - the guy was merely the ward bishop or the branch president and was clearly an a$$hole. No you were not excommunicated and your being told to keep away would not have endeared him to his stake president - heck even excommunicated or disfellowshipped members are encouraged to still attend church!
But interested in returning or not, you are still "on the books" as far as SLC is concerned.
Unlike TWI, such an order was only a local one and not binding upon the whole organisation.
I had my name removed by writing a letter so am not carrying a torch for the LDS, but I thought in fairness this needed to be pointed out.
Warm regards :D-->
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imbus
I wasn't around when M&A was activated. Thank God. I do know by experiance what is like to be emotionally cut off and physically isolated. My mother used this tatic over and over again and believe me it is effective. Great means of control and instills greater codependency. :(-->
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