I would like to chime in on this. I like to think that I had a good if not excellent marriage. We both agreed to keep it on a biblical basis as taught by twi from the beginning. So yes I was the “boss†and she would submit to my decisions. But I remembered our marriage was to be an example of the mystery and that my charge was to love my wife as Jesus Christ loved his church, which I understood to be Israel, so I used the gospels as an example.
From a practical stand point this meant that if my wife wanted to do something like go out to dinner and I wanted to sit at home and watch TV, I should take her to dinner and record a show if it was that important to me. I believed Christ would do just about anything to “bless†his church as long as it wasn’t “off the Wordâ€. A major example of this occurred after we were married a couple of years. One of Sue’s aunts died suddenly in Florida, we lived in Atlanta. She told me it was very important to here to go down for the funeral to represent her family who could not make it. I agreed to it because it was important to her.
Also I felt that as my wife/best friend/companion I could should and wanted to discuss any major decision with her. We would talk about it, and I would tell here why I made a decision, (once again isn’t that what JC did with his church?) and always left the door open to change (trying it her way) if it did not work out.
Sue did cheat though, if she felt my decision was wrong or that I wasn’t ready to make a decision she would pray about it until I came around. As far as I know it worked every time. Her mother had been a nag and she had seen how it contributed to the destruction of her parent’s marriage.
I remember getting complementary comments by people when we with twi, but we or at least I got several more after we left, they saw me being a “good husband†some missed the fact that I couldn’t do it without a “spiritually great wife†even if she was in a wheel chair.
I'm fellowshipper's fiance and I want to add my thoughts on subjection if that's ok.....
This is what I have worked through for myself on what subjection means for me. I have worked it through both biblical word study and narative and practical experience of one failed marriage and one successful 'courtship'!
Subjection: the art of holding myself with an open hand as a gift towards others (especially my husband) If he demands my submission, it is no longer mine to give and if others demand it on his behalf it is also no longer mine to give.
Therefore, I can on ly be truly submissive when I am truly free.
Jesus always submitted himself in complete freedom to others. Whenever submissioon was demanded of him (usually by the teachers of the law and therefore, those who ought to have known better)he refised.
You cannot give what you have not got.
Therefore, in my estimation, submission has nothing to do with authority or who;s 'better' than whom, it has to do with the giving of the gift of myself in a loving and trusting, mutually equally realtionship.
This may or may not contribute to the discussion, but it's something I have struggled with for many years and is close to my heart. Hope it has been of some use to launch more conversation
Again - so much depended on where you lived, whom your leadership was and the timeframe of when you were in.
It takes a long time for me to type now...I'll be back and edit this post when I've typed it all out in Word. (yeah - I know we're not supposed to do that!)
-----------------------------------
I am going to write this all down even though I know many of you will either not believe it – or else you’ll deny it…just as with those ladies who were “sex victims†but write I will.
Wives were to be submissive to the husbands because the husband was responsible to God for the marriage and the wife. “Submission†was supposed to go like this: husbands and wives were to discuss things by proper arrangement and deliberate decision and if there was an “impasse†the husband cast the deciding vote. I have no problem with this given the responsibility of the husband before God.. However…practice was often not in the same vein.
During our innie years – we needed to replace a washing machine, clothes drier and a vacuum. I took my responsibilities seriously…I looked around in several appliance stores looking for the features etc. I felt best met my needs in getting the family laundry done. I went with my husband to show him what I thought was best. He did not agree…but there was no discussion. He purchased what he wanted to. At this time there was no financial restrictions – but I picked something that had a minimum of extra goodies since most of the time these little do-dads break down anyway and aren’t of much value (at least to me in the context of our family) – but there were a few I considered basic and necessary - such as several water temps and 3 water levels. I wanted a bleach and softener dispenser since they would save me 2 extra trips down the stairs to add those things when desired. Besides saving trips down the stairs, the convenience of not interrupting what I was doing to attend to those tasks. Given the size of our family, a large capacity machine would have been very useful.
Husband bought a very basic machine which was highly rated by Consumer Reports. He did not consider any of my requests as “relevant†and when I tried to explain them…he walked away in the store.
I learned! In general, that set the example for everything…that will give you a frame of reference for how things worked most of the time. It took almost 3 weeks for me to convince him we needed a new clothes drier…and that was accomplished only by my dragging loads of wet laundry to the Laundromat with piles of quarters. But I never put any energy into selecting one…I learned from the first experience.
We got a new vacuum and I never knew it until it came in the house!
Maybe tomorrow I’ll give you some insight as to how money issues were handled. (typing is a bitch right now – so maybe I won’t)
Relational Subordination, Evaluative Consistency and Socinian Hags.
Some ex-Wayfers argue that Jesus' subjection to the Father contraindicates there being equality between them.
If biblical indication of relational subordination signifies an inequality that involves an inferiority of nature, however, every married woman on this forum is inferior in what constitutes her essential nature to that which constitutes the essential nature of her husband.
Doctrine & practice, not always "parrellel". :P-->
I never heard it "officially" taught that being the head meant lording it over the wife. Even in the Martindale's Class BPBF (Bozos Pretending & Biblical Fakeouts) it was taught that if the husband & wife could not agree then they should "hold it in abeyance" until they could agree.
One of the things that made the rounds in our area was that the woman was the keeper, or guardian of the home (there's a couple of verses where this is mentioned - forgot where), and that this meant that she was responsible for the spiritual atmosphere of the home. This was interpreted to mean not only the decor, but what was discussed over dinner, music, what was on the bookshelf - pretty much all the "physicals" and how they contributed or took away from the spiritual atmosphere.
This teaching overlapped with the "husband as the head of the household" teaching.
The problem was always how teachings were applied and incorporated into counselling. Leaders would play these two concepts "head of the household" and "keeper of the home" in such a way as to ensure the behavior that they wanted from married couples.
In our area, most of the women were strong, independent minded, go-getters. They really latched onto the "keeper of the home" concept. Most of the men were not interested in using the position of "head" to lord it over their wives. So what was happening was that leaders alternated between nagging the men to stand up and "be the head" (without any information as to what that really meant) and nagging the women to be better "keepers of the home".
Sometimes the couple was set against each other by leaders, telling each that they needed to stand up and "do the Word", standing against their spouses.
My experience was often the opposite of Krysilis' in that my ex-wife would stand firm on a decision that I disagreed with, invoking her authority as "keeper of the home" to take unilateral action.
In my experience I saw little that indicated a second-class status for TWI women, but that leaders would denigrate whoever they felt was weaker, or less committed to "the Word". In the last years of my marriage I saw it flip back & forth several times.
(((oak))) I am so sorry. I shouldn`t have said most men in my post...Many Many of you guys were wonderfull loving gentlemen....My bitterness of much of what I saw ... at times over shadows the memories of all of you guys who were doing your best to just serve God and love your family.
What happened to you was criminal imo....
I don`t think you guys even knew what crap we were being fed...my husband certainly didn`t....
I don`t know why some were so mean and some were not...I don`t know why some heard the teachings and caught on to the part about loving the wife like Jesus loved the church ...and some used the same teaching as a liscense to throw their weight around...to bully and demean....
I do know that when we finally reexamined our *marriage* beliefs as taught by twi...and tossed em....Mark was damn glad to have a real partner at last....we worked together for the first time.....rather than having some kiss a-- servant who mindlessly agreed with everything he says...with no valid opinion...kind of like some mindless bobble head doll....
Whether the family sinks or swims does not rest entirely on his shoulders any more...it isn`t his burden alone anymore.
The pressure of having to get everything JUST right ...of being spiritually sharp 100 % of the time lest some evil befall his family due to some lack of attention to some minor detail...was an enormous burden for him to carry alone.
I know that you guys had it rough....having to deal with all of the normal pressures of life, work raising kids ...plus answereing to leadership for every little thing...any little shortcoming of any member in your family was your personal failing at some vital issue.
Not many twi marriages I know survived ..... I think it is because what we were taught interfered with how the partnership functions....created many unnecessary pressures on you guys and bred discontent with the women ...
The only thing we really held to post-way was pushing ourselves to come to an agreement of some kind when we disagreed. Sometimes we woud have to talk all night... but thats okay...coming up on 17 years. Hubby works so ard now---he counts on me to handle it all most of the time and keep him informed, on rare occaisions, I have to call and do the "we need to talk" about whatever, but not much...we were older when we got married and both had a fair amount of life experience, despite George Hendley putting down my husband at our rehearsal dinner...but htat's another thread.
I have seen very few TWI marriages survive. But then the marriage survival rate for the general population is not that high either. Some of the marriages that "survive", don't seem like they should have. Neither person seems very happy.
My TWI originated marriage did not survive, but there were reasons other than TWI for that. My ex and I could have stayed living at the same address, having common property, appearing in public together, but does that constitute a marriage? If there is no love, respect, caring, laughter, playing, what's the point? It took me over a decade to wake up and realize that if a marriage didn't include love, etc, it needed to begin to include it or end. After two years of trying (marriage retreats, counseling) to figure out what it would take for the ex to treat me like a human, I realized it wasn't going to happen.
So I got a tattoo, a motorcycle and rode off into the sunset. And never looked back.
I had one relationship after my divorce. The guy was a Bhuddist. Nice guy, had some fun, but didn't feel a connection. The relationship ended when he tried to make me choose between him and one of my dogs. Easy decision. The dog stayed. That conversation showed me all I needed to know about the future of that relationship. When someone expects you to give up something that is almost as important to you as breathing, to suit them, they don't love you. They just find you useful.
quote:I am still the head of my household, I even have my wife’s permission to say so.
I knew someone would beat me to that line.
As my stepson and I tell my wife often: "It's her world and we're just living in it"... as long as we keep this thought in our minds things seem to go better...
It was a pretty twisted 'doctrine' that TWI came up with...
There are a myriad of things that need to be adressed first. You posted that you are used to verbal abuse, guilt and a slave mentality. Before you can begin to look for what you do want, you have to recognize what you don't want.
If your behavior and thought processes are still tangled in the above characteristics you will draw to yourself men who will abuse you and you will fall back into the patterns of guilt and enslavement.
Honey, you need to take care of you first. Once your core self gets healed up from your experiances, then you will be a better judge of what you do want .
Weither it is TWI or someone who believes deeply in the Bible, it is up to you to set boundries and limits as to how you want to be treated. You have already experianced via the Bible, personal mistreatment. It's not about the Bible, it's about the individual that carries it. So be smart and heal.
In all relationships respect is paramount. If the expectation from the one you are dating is for you to change, in any way, then that individual does not embrace...who you really are. Time to say goodby.
It is a mutual space giving and respect. And if your doing all the work in a relationship...say goodby again. This stuff is fundemental and you don't need the Bible to give you permission to take care of yourself. That was a given the day you were born.
My husband was one of the WOWs who got me in the word.
But I married him because he reminded me of my Dad--smart, generous, funny, kind, hard working.
That was the best decision I made during the Way years. (That and the decision not to go into the corps!)
We went through many difficult times our last five or six years in TWI, plus just life things, like lay offs, medical emergencies etc.
But the core man remains the same. He never once pulled the 'I'm the Head' card on me, though we saw it happening all around us. And he thought the branch's attitude that wives should be treated like twelve year olds was absurd.
We've always talked and come to agreements about decisions, and I have never felt like a servant. The Way's marriage doctrine never really made it into our relationship. I'm glad.
Excellent advice Imbus...Respect is so important....very difficult to achieve during my twi years.......
Wow Bramble...he sounds like a Gem.... I think it was very hard NOT to be influinced by the example of leaders.... So glad that your marriage remained untainted by twi doctrine.
My ex-husband was more like my mother than my father. My mom is mentally ill and I spent my growing up years trying to cover for her as the mother to all of my siblings and make her happy. Of course it never worked. After my divorce, I realized I had done the same for my mentally ill husband. It took me a long time and hearing from several professionals to believe that my ex-husband was mentally ill and that I was never going to be able to make him happy, cover for him enough or help him get better. Both of my parents were extremely abusive, so being with someone like my dad is not at all appealing to me.
Since I have gotten some post divorce emotional wellness, I find myself attracted to men that have personalities, characters, dispositions very similar to one of my brothers. This brother is the only one of the 5 that stood up to my parents (like I did), set some healthy boundaries, doesn't allow either of my parents to abuse him verbally or play emotional black mail games. This brother has always loved me unconditionally and is the most honest person I know. He is open about his Christian beliefs and lives them. He has told me he prays for me even when I couldn't believe in prayer and I believe him.
He has been a big influence on me not giving up on men all together.
Smurfette: Just watched that movie 'American Beauty'. I saw it before when it was first on video. I thought of it as a comedy; Blockbuster has it in drama.
If you haven't seen it, it has two very screwed up marriages living right next door to each other; screwed up for opposite reasons. After seeing it I feel like the most normal person in the world.
A biblical marriage is one where God joins the two together. Just because TWI clergy performed the ceremony doesn't mean God DIDN'T join the two together.
quote: For healing's sake, I was wondering how the rest of you would define the above terms. I have some decisions to make and need a clearer picture than I have right now due to previous years experience. If I were to persue a new relationship, what qualities should I look for since I am used to the verbal abuse, guilt, slave mentality and submitting that twi teaches.
My contribution would be that twi submitting is wife be quiet and do as told.
Smurfette -- Loretta Lynn (country singer) used to sing songs about "relationships", and was M&A by the country music association for doing so. She was asked in an interview by a (male) reporter -- "Do you really believe a marriage should be 50/50?"
To which she replied -- "I don't believe in 50/50. Marriage should be 100/100."
Loretta had the right idea. Go thou, and do likewise! :)-->
Ok.... my Dad in his wedding vows last year...made a solemn oath to his bride...that EACH day.... that he would do everything within his power to ensure that this day would be even BETTER than the one they enjoyed the day before...lol
It seems to be working for them as they are still deleriously happy together.
Far cry from the *instruction* I recievd in twi ...I once was told that all I needed to know for a *successfull* marriage, was to employ the two *f*s ....simply, this was all that was required of me to make it a happy marriage....
Feed em n F--- em ... nice right? God forbid *I* should need anything in addition... adherence to this excellent advice probably explains the size of my fanny and number of my progeny ... sigh
"Do you mean that if I had studied the bible more I would have had less problems? Cause if THATS what you mean....it would be inapropriate..."
I did not mean that, yes I know it sounded bad, sorry.
I like word-studies, and I like the idea of a written standard of morals.
I did not mean that YOU needed to do more Bible study, nor more prayer, I see how it sounded, I am sorry.
I have no issues really with fundamentalism, but they need to stay there and not go off into left field. So many see the phrase of "Head of Household" and immediately want to have an iron fist.
Is that really what is seen from any Biblical examples?
Can you picture Jesus ruling with an Iron fist?
"bad treatment.... wrong decisions...inapropriate behavior....we must submit to this...and THEN God would bless us...regardless of whether the husband was right or wrong... husband making foolish decisions....Our whole role in the marriage our insights...our longsuits would be dismissed at a whim...as unimportant..thus fully discarding half of what was needed for a healthy marriage and happy family."
It offends me, it is so obviously wrong. We can today see cultures wherein the men rule their households in that method. Their women are silent and stay home. There is no running water, no sanitation, no electricity, . . . can you picture, can anyone picture a culture wherein I could provide for my entire family with 4 wives 20 children and relatives all from a herd of 30 goats? Abject poverty, ignorant people and no hope of prosperity, or freedom. Is that the guideline to be set for us?
You can not say, well it is the Biblical guideline. There were ancient societys that did prosper. Rahab was the head of her own household, she owned her own home, she had employees, she supported her relatives, she was known in the city. People desire to call her a prostitute, the Bible does not. In the full vocanulary used through-out the Bible 'prostitute' is used many times, but not used of Rahab. She was an independant women, who through un-specified mis-fortune (maybe she was just very head-strong and no man was her equal) became her own head of household.
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ckeer
I would like to chime in on this. I like to think that I had a good if not excellent marriage. We both agreed to keep it on a biblical basis as taught by twi from the beginning. So yes I was the “boss†and she would submit to my decisions. But I remembered our marriage was to be an example of the mystery and that my charge was to love my wife as Jesus Christ loved his church, which I understood to be Israel, so I used the gospels as an example.
From a practical stand point this meant that if my wife wanted to do something like go out to dinner and I wanted to sit at home and watch TV, I should take her to dinner and record a show if it was that important to me. I believed Christ would do just about anything to “bless†his church as long as it wasn’t “off the Wordâ€. A major example of this occurred after we were married a couple of years. One of Sue’s aunts died suddenly in Florida, we lived in Atlanta. She told me it was very important to here to go down for the funeral to represent her family who could not make it. I agreed to it because it was important to her.
Also I felt that as my wife/best friend/companion I could should and wanted to discuss any major decision with her. We would talk about it, and I would tell here why I made a decision, (once again isn’t that what JC did with his church?) and always left the door open to change (trying it her way) if it did not work out.
Sue did cheat though, if she felt my decision was wrong or that I wasn’t ready to make a decision she would pray about it until I came around. As far as I know it worked every time. Her mother had been a nag and she had seen how it contributed to the destruction of her parent’s marriage.
I remember getting complementary comments by people when we with twi, but we or at least I got several more after we left, they saw me being a “good husband†some missed the fact that I couldn’t do it without a “spiritually great wife†even if she was in a wheel chair.
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fellowshipper
Hi
I'm fellowshipper's fiance and I want to add my thoughts on subjection if that's ok.....
This is what I have worked through for myself on what subjection means for me. I have worked it through both biblical word study and narative and practical experience of one failed marriage and one successful 'courtship'!
Subjection: the art of holding myself with an open hand as a gift towards others (especially my husband) If he demands my submission, it is no longer mine to give and if others demand it on his behalf it is also no longer mine to give.
Therefore, I can on ly be truly submissive when I am truly free.
Jesus always submitted himself in complete freedom to others. Whenever submissioon was demanded of him (usually by the teachers of the law and therefore, those who ought to have known better)he refised.
You cannot give what you have not got.
Therefore, in my estimation, submission has nothing to do with authority or who;s 'better' than whom, it has to do with the giving of the gift of myself in a loving and trusting, mutually equally realtionship.
This may or may not contribute to the discussion, but it's something I have struggled with for many years and is close to my heart. Hope it has been of some use to launch more conversation
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krys
I'm alsoo "weigh in" here.
Are we discussing doctrine?? or practice?
Again - so much depended on where you lived, whom your leadership was and the timeframe of when you were in.
It takes a long time for me to type now...I'll be back and edit this post when I've typed it all out in Word. (yeah - I know we're not supposed to do that!)
-----------------------------------
I am going to write this all down even though I know many of you will either not believe it – or else you’ll deny it…just as with those ladies who were “sex victims†but write I will.
Wives were to be submissive to the husbands because the husband was responsible to God for the marriage and the wife. “Submission†was supposed to go like this: husbands and wives were to discuss things by proper arrangement and deliberate decision and if there was an “impasse†the husband cast the deciding vote. I have no problem with this given the responsibility of the husband before God.. However…practice was often not in the same vein.
During our innie years – we needed to replace a washing machine, clothes drier and a vacuum. I took my responsibilities seriously…I looked around in several appliance stores looking for the features etc. I felt best met my needs in getting the family laundry done. I went with my husband to show him what I thought was best. He did not agree…but there was no discussion. He purchased what he wanted to. At this time there was no financial restrictions – but I picked something that had a minimum of extra goodies since most of the time these little do-dads break down anyway and aren’t of much value (at least to me in the context of our family) – but there were a few I considered basic and necessary - such as several water temps and 3 water levels. I wanted a bleach and softener dispenser since they would save me 2 extra trips down the stairs to add those things when desired. Besides saving trips down the stairs, the convenience of not interrupting what I was doing to attend to those tasks. Given the size of our family, a large capacity machine would have been very useful.
Husband bought a very basic machine which was highly rated by Consumer Reports. He did not consider any of my requests as “relevant†and when I tried to explain them…he walked away in the store.
I learned! In general, that set the example for everything…that will give you a frame of reference for how things worked most of the time. It took almost 3 weeks for me to convince him we needed a new clothes drier…and that was accomplished only by my dragging loads of wet laundry to the Laundromat with piles of quarters. But I never put any energy into selecting one…I learned from the first experience.
We got a new vacuum and I never knew it until it came in the house!
Maybe tomorrow I’ll give you some insight as to how money issues were handled. (typing is a bitch right now – so maybe I won’t)
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Cynic
Relational Subordination, Evaluative Consistency and Socinian Hags.
Some ex-Wayfers argue that Jesus' subjection to the Father contraindicates there being equality between them.
If biblical indication of relational subordination signifies an inequality that involves an inferiority of nature, however, every married woman on this forum is inferior in what constitutes her essential nature to that which constitutes the essential nature of her husband.
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ex10
fellowshipper's beloved
That was very beautifully put.
:)-->
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Oakspear
Doctrine & practice, not always "parrellel".
:P-->
I never heard it "officially" taught that being the head meant lording it over the wife. Even in the Martindale's Class BPBF (Bozos Pretending & Biblical Fakeouts) it was taught that if the husband & wife could not agree then they should "hold it in abeyance" until they could agree.
One of the things that made the rounds in our area was that the woman was the keeper, or guardian of the home (there's a couple of verses where this is mentioned - forgot where), and that this meant that she was responsible for the spiritual atmosphere of the home. This was interpreted to mean not only the decor, but what was discussed over dinner, music, what was on the bookshelf - pretty much all the "physicals" and how they contributed or took away from the spiritual atmosphere.
This teaching overlapped with the "husband as the head of the household" teaching.
The problem was always how teachings were applied and incorporated into counselling. Leaders would play these two concepts "head of the household" and "keeper of the home" in such a way as to ensure the behavior that they wanted from married couples.
In our area, most of the women were strong, independent minded, go-getters. They really latched onto the "keeper of the home" concept. Most of the men were not interested in using the position of "head" to lord it over their wives. So what was happening was that leaders alternated between nagging the men to stand up and "be the head" (without any information as to what that really meant) and nagging the women to be better "keepers of the home".
Sometimes the couple was set against each other by leaders, telling each that they needed to stand up and "do the Word", standing against their spouses.
My experience was often the opposite of Krysilis' in that my ex-wife would stand firm on a decision that I disagreed with, invoking her authority as "keeper of the home" to take unilateral action.
In my experience I saw little that indicated a second-class status for TWI women, but that leaders would denigrate whoever they felt was weaker, or less committed to "the Word". In the last years of my marriage I saw it flip back & forth several times.
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rascal
(((oak))) I am so sorry. I shouldn`t have said most men in my post...Many Many of you guys were wonderfull loving gentlemen....My bitterness of much of what I saw ... at times over shadows the memories of all of you guys who were doing your best to just serve God and love your family.
What happened to you was criminal imo....
I don`t think you guys even knew what crap we were being fed...my husband certainly didn`t....
I don`t know why some were so mean and some were not...I don`t know why some heard the teachings and caught on to the part about loving the wife like Jesus loved the church ...and some used the same teaching as a liscense to throw their weight around...to bully and demean....
I do know that when we finally reexamined our *marriage* beliefs as taught by twi...and tossed em....Mark was damn glad to have a real partner at last....we worked together for the first time.....rather than having some kiss a-- servant who mindlessly agreed with everything he says...with no valid opinion...kind of like some mindless bobble head doll....
Whether the family sinks or swims does not rest entirely on his shoulders any more...it isn`t his burden alone anymore.
The pressure of having to get everything JUST right ...of being spiritually sharp 100 % of the time lest some evil befall his family due to some lack of attention to some minor detail...was an enormous burden for him to carry alone.
I know that you guys had it rough....having to deal with all of the normal pressures of life, work raising kids ...plus answereing to leadership for every little thing...any little shortcoming of any member in your family was your personal failing at some vital issue.
Not many twi marriages I know survived ..... I think it is because what we were taught interfered with how the partnership functions....created many unnecessary pressures on you guys and bred discontent with the women ...
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washingtonweather
The only thing we really held to post-way was pushing ourselves to come to an agreement of some kind when we disagreed. Sometimes we woud have to talk all night... but thats okay...coming up on 17 years. Hubby works so ard now---he counts on me to handle it all most of the time and keep him informed, on rare occaisions, I have to call and do the "we need to talk" about whatever, but not much...we were older when we got married and both had a fair amount of life experience, despite George Hendley putting down my husband at our rehearsal dinner...but htat's another thread.
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Mary Cate
I have seen very few TWI marriages survive. But then the marriage survival rate for the general population is not that high either. Some of the marriages that "survive", don't seem like they should have. Neither person seems very happy.
My TWI originated marriage did not survive, but there were reasons other than TWI for that. My ex and I could have stayed living at the same address, having common property, appearing in public together, but does that constitute a marriage? If there is no love, respect, caring, laughter, playing, what's the point? It took me over a decade to wake up and realize that if a marriage didn't include love, etc, it needed to begin to include it or end. After two years of trying (marriage retreats, counseling) to figure out what it would take for the ex to treat me like a human, I realized it wasn't going to happen.
So I got a tattoo, a motorcycle and rode off into the sunset. And never looked back.
I had one relationship after my divorce. The guy was a Bhuddist. Nice guy, had some fun, but didn't feel a connection. The relationship ended when he tried to make me choose between him and one of my dogs. Easy decision. The dog stayed. That conversation showed me all I needed to know about the future of that relationship. When someone expects you to give up something that is almost as important to you as breathing, to suit them, they don't love you. They just find you useful.
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Tom Strange
As my stepson and I tell my wife often: "It's her world and we're just living in it"... as long as we keep this thought in our minds things seem to go better...
It was a pretty twisted 'doctrine' that TWI came up with...
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Tom Strange
OH... and welcome to posting slippingfellow's fiance!
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imbus
Dearest Smurfett,
There are a myriad of things that need to be adressed first. You posted that you are used to verbal abuse, guilt and a slave mentality. Before you can begin to look for what you do want, you have to recognize what you don't want.
If your behavior and thought processes are still tangled in the above characteristics you will draw to yourself men who will abuse you and you will fall back into the patterns of guilt and enslavement.
Honey, you need to take care of you first. Once your core self gets healed up from your experiances, then you will be a better judge of what you do want .
Weither it is TWI or someone who believes deeply in the Bible, it is up to you to set boundries and limits as to how you want to be treated. You have already experianced via the Bible, personal mistreatment. It's not about the Bible, it's about the individual that carries it. So be smart and heal.
In all relationships respect is paramount. If the expectation from the one you are dating is for you to change, in any way, then that individual does not embrace...who you really are. Time to say goodby.
It is a mutual space giving and respect. And if your doing all the work in a relationship...say goodby again. This stuff is fundemental and you don't need the Bible to give you permission to take care of yourself. That was a given the day you were born.
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Bramble
My husband was one of the WOWs who got me in the word.
But I married him because he reminded me of my Dad--smart, generous, funny, kind, hard working.
That was the best decision I made during the Way years. (That and the decision not to go into the corps!)
We went through many difficult times our last five or six years in TWI, plus just life things, like lay offs, medical emergencies etc.
But the core man remains the same. He never once pulled the 'I'm the Head' card on me, though we saw it happening all around us. And he thought the branch's attitude that wives should be treated like twelve year olds was absurd.
We've always talked and come to agreements about decisions, and I have never felt like a servant. The Way's marriage doctrine never really made it into our relationship. I'm glad.
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rascal
Excellent advice Imbus...Respect is so important....very difficult to achieve during my twi years.......
Wow Bramble...he sounds like a Gem.... I think it was very hard NOT to be influinced by the example of leaders.... So glad that your marriage remained untainted by twi doctrine.
You have my respect.
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excathedra
what's bad is when you marry your father and he was an a sshole
ps. rascal, have i told you how much i love your posts ? and that my bird rascal is a girl ?
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Mary Cate
Ex,
My ex-husband was more like my mother than my father. My mom is mentally ill and I spent my growing up years trying to cover for her as the mother to all of my siblings and make her happy. Of course it never worked. After my divorce, I realized I had done the same for my mentally ill husband. It took me a long time and hearing from several professionals to believe that my ex-husband was mentally ill and that I was never going to be able to make him happy, cover for him enough or help him get better. Both of my parents were extremely abusive, so being with someone like my dad is not at all appealing to me.
Since I have gotten some post divorce emotional wellness, I find myself attracted to men that have personalities, characters, dispositions very similar to one of my brothers. This brother is the only one of the 5 that stood up to my parents (like I did), set some healthy boundaries, doesn't allow either of my parents to abuse him verbally or play emotional black mail games. This brother has always loved me unconditionally and is the most honest person I know. He is open about his Christian beliefs and lives them. He has told me he prays for me even when I couldn't believe in prayer and I believe him.
He has been a big influence on me not giving up on men all together.
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excathedra
i understand dear mc. i have 5 brothers and well.... i hear ya
hugs
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johniam
Smurfette: Just watched that movie 'American Beauty'. I saw it before when it was first on video. I thought of it as a comedy; Blockbuster has it in drama.
If you haven't seen it, it has two very screwed up marriages living right next door to each other; screwed up for opposite reasons. After seeing it I feel like the most normal person in the world.
A biblical marriage is one where God joins the two together. Just because TWI clergy performed the ceremony doesn't mean God DIDN'T join the two together.
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dmiller
Smurfette -- Loretta Lynn (country singer) used to sing songs about "relationships", and was M&A by the country music association for doing so. She was asked in an interview by a (male) reporter -- "Do you really believe a marriage should be 50/50?"
To which she replied -- "I don't believe in 50/50. Marriage should be 100/100."
Loretta had the right idea. Go thou, and do likewise!
:)-->
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rascal
Ok.... my Dad in his wedding vows last year...made a solemn oath to his bride...that EACH day.... that he would do everything within his power to ensure that this day would be even BETTER than the one they enjoyed the day before...lol
It seems to be working for them as they are still deleriously happy together.
Far cry from the *instruction* I recievd in twi ...I once was told that all I needed to know for a *successfull* marriage, was to employ the two *f*s ....simply, this was all that was required of me to make it a happy marriage....
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excathedra
what's the other *f* ?
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rascal
Feed em n F--- em ... nice right? God forbid *I* should need anything in addition... adherence to this excellent advice probably explains the size of my fanny and number of my progeny ... sigh
It sure wasn`t very much help ....
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Galen
rascal:
"Do you mean that if I had studied the bible more I would have had less problems? Cause if THATS what you mean....it would be inapropriate..."
I did not mean that, yes I know it sounded bad, sorry.
I like word-studies, and I like the idea of a written standard of morals.
I did not mean that YOU needed to do more Bible study, nor more prayer, I see how it sounded, I am sorry.
I have no issues really with fundamentalism, but they need to stay there and not go off into left field. So many see the phrase of "Head of Household" and immediately want to have an iron fist.
Is that really what is seen from any Biblical examples?
Can you picture Jesus ruling with an Iron fist?
"bad treatment.... wrong decisions...inapropriate behavior....we must submit to this...and THEN God would bless us...regardless of whether the husband was right or wrong... husband making foolish decisions....Our whole role in the marriage our insights...our longsuits would be dismissed at a whim...as unimportant..thus fully discarding half of what was needed for a healthy marriage and happy family."
It offends me, it is so obviously wrong. We can today see cultures wherein the men rule their households in that method. Their women are silent and stay home. There is no running water, no sanitation, no electricity, . . . can you picture, can anyone picture a culture wherein I could provide for my entire family with 4 wives 20 children and relatives all from a herd of 30 goats? Abject poverty, ignorant people and no hope of prosperity, or freedom. Is that the guideline to be set for us?
You can not say, well it is the Biblical guideline. There were ancient societys that did prosper. Rahab was the head of her own household, she owned her own home, she had employees, she supported her relatives, she was known in the city. People desire to call her a prostitute, the Bible does not. In the full vocanulary used through-out the Bible 'prostitute' is used many times, but not used of Rahab. She was an independant women, who through un-specified mis-fortune (maybe she was just very head-strong and no man was her equal) became her own head of household.
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excathedra
galen
tell me something in one line or less
mwah
that's a kiss
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