oh... I thought it looked very similar to this one posted here about a year ago that had "Revised March 2003" at the top... I think it's the same one...
This causes theme song from CSI: to run through my mind. You know “Won’t be Fooled Again” by the Who. But this is about CES right? If you are interested in joining this "camaraderie of the committed" be sure to take JAL up on his suggestion to check them out and see how well they are applying the keys to the bibles interpretation and why they think VP would be so proud.
This is a document on their site: in reference to Jesus Christ the glue that knits them together and whom they stand for:
and the part about Dr. Wierwille would be proud" (!) I do declare, it makes my head spin.
Long letters are often a sign of neuroticism... and that's what this is.... fundamentalist neuroticism.
"the keys" work as well as they ever did, John, ..fine, for those who wish to remain in a biblicist fog
I just read Marcus Borg's "Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time"...now there's a biblical scholar actually worth spending some time with. Warning, not for spiritually emaciated, no-fruit-of-the-spirit, nous in the sand Christians (New Knoxville style).
To all -- and it's just another IMHO, so you can "read" --For What It's Worth".
Jal, and CES have changed. Neither are the same entity that they were in times past. Both have grown, and both are realizing, and accepting larger responsibilities.
While I am not sure about the "vpw would be proud" statement, I can say that CES has done it's "homework". The ministry they used to be, well -- they are not today. What they used to teach, well -- they don't teach the same stuff these days. Some of the teachings ( www.truthortradition.com ) still sound like twi, but most have better explanations and scriptural reference, than vpw gave.
They have evolved from an "information" group, to the "full-service" outfit, that frankly, meets more needs, even internationally. But imho, they are still an "informational group" that can be counted on to dig for stuff, and present it to the public.
I am one of their (small) financial supporters (I don't give a whole lot, each month), but I believe they are doing what they can to further the cause of Christ (more than me, by a long shot).
All pages on any of the 3 CES sites, are printer friendly, and one is encouraged to do so. I believe the cesonline is less so, since it is more or less the "home site".
are one's you can "tap" into, and see what they are up to, today.
What JAL wrote, be it from 1988, or present, is his heart today. It was posted from a site that all can access. We've been burnt, we've been thrown out, we've been considered "so much garbage". I see that in the letter, yet I also see the fact that we can accept another WAY, the original one -- Jesus Christ.
As I said -- this is just an IMHO. I want the fish, and not the bones. ;)-->
Hi Jeff...hope you're doing well. Tell John Lynn that he's welcome to come in here to "chat" with us anytime...of course, we are not sitting quietly in our seats, listening to him pontificate from a pulpit. He would be sitting at a normal table in a normal chair, here at the GS cafe. We are not his audience, but he is welcome to converse here like everybody who follows the rules. Same goes for Shoenheit and Graeser...but if they're looking for the "lost sheep of twi", tell em to keep looking...someplace else....Oh, they might rope in few strays, but they better be ready to face those who are not impressed with their "biblical research".
quote: I wish that I could adequately communicate to you how thrilling life is when the Lord Jesus Christ is a daily reality.
Yes, JAL, we know, we were all thrilled to have all those easy answers once ourselves.
And now, alas, we have to trudge through daily life like all those other peons... seeking what little light God grants to people without the "keys" to the perfect uninterpreted Word.
You know, I wouldn't trade in reality for all the illusions in Hollywood. Actually, I AM thrilled to be in a relationship with The One Who IS based on honesty and intellectual integrity rather than scriptural parlor tricks.
I know you wish you could show me how thrilling it is; that's the first step to getting into my life and wallet. No, thanks. Your Way is not my way. Why can't fundamentalists leave the rest of us alone? What bug is up their butt?
I know what they think it is. (love) but they have no self-knowledge... it's fear. If they can convince us, that's one more proof that their house of cards will stand (it won't).
If they are lucky it will stand till they die..then they will learn what the rest of us already know. There is no 'system' of truth wrapped up in brown paper (or India paper) with thin little red ribbons.
Ah, after all these years do I still need to express anger that these false teachers left me with? Or am I righteously angry, like my Lord was at the Pharisees? Is there a difference?
I am glad I now know that Jesus is Lord (not God) but Lord. In ALL my days in TWI I can honestly say I never knew the Lord Jesus. John Lynn will be the first to tell you that as well.
Hi Jeff...hope you're doing well. Tell John Lynn that he's welcome to come in here to "chat" with us anytime...of course, we are not sitting quietly in our seats, listening to him pontificate from a pulpit. He would be sitting at a normal table in a normal chair, here at the GS cafe. We are not his audience, but he is welcome to converse here like everybody who follows the rules. Same goes for Shoenheit and Graeser...but if they're looking for the "lost sheep of twi", tell em to keep looking...someplace else....Oh, they might rope in few strays, but they better be ready to face those who are not impressed with their "biblical research".
I agree they're welcome to join in as an active participant and
an equal.
(Of course, mine is only one voice in the gallery, also, so my
DISagreement wouldn't count for much. :)--> )
However, since many of us use screen-names, I've no guarantee they
don't already visit or post under a pseudonym.
I'm reasonably certain they already know this is not a good site
to do recruitment. (So far, only one person seems to disagree.) :)-->
What kind of person say "I love you" in a form letter? I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's being honest, at least as he sees it. Still, kind of cheesy.
Maybe he just holding onto the Mog thinking, so one day he will be the man.
He had a preaty good letter going except the Dr. part and the I love u twice.
Seemed to me if he was in the know and not kissed the ring of TWI it would of saved a whole bunch of pain to lots of us. Where was you backbone and stood up for what was right then. And why would i think You would stand up now with ending your letter about Dr. Who the hell cares what a dead man might think. How about this for a wild thought What does God think?
Jeff you might be a fine guy. Thanks but no thanks.
Yeah, I remember getting this letter in my email at one time (whichever version it was, 1.0, 1.2........).
quote: I was only one of the "poor substitutes" that people looked to when they should have been looking to the Lord Jesus Christ.
I see, it's OUR fault.
So then, why exactly do we need you?
quote: Each letter has an order form listing all the materials we have so you can order anything you like.
All for the low, low price of 19.95 (except where noted).
quote:In closing, let me say that I honestly believe that Dr. Wierwille would be very proud of what we are doing.
I can see why you would think people who go to an exway site would take the opinion of a man who led such an 'exemplary' life. I don't know about you, but I have some difficulty with deathbed 'conversions'.
A person realizes he/she's going to die and suddenly, faced with the prospect of going to 'hell' renounces everything they stood for in life. This is why you seem to find a LOT of 'Christians' in prison.
Please forgive my cynicism (which, I believe, your 'book' implores you to do). Thanks, but no thanks.
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Schwaigers
John,
"Dr. Wierwille would be very proud of what we are doing" ????? Who cares?
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Tom Strange
isn't this the same old letter? I don't see a date...
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GarthP2000
Doncha really like those form letters that says "I love you"?
So personal and so touching, ..... NOT!!
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Jeff USAF RET
This letter is new.
The original letter John Lynn did in 1988 about the breakup of TWI and all the behind the scene stuff is located at:
http://www.swiftlynx.com/beyondTheWayInternational/
:-)
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Tom Strange
oh... I thought it looked very similar to this one posted here about a year ago that had "Revised March 2003" at the top... I think it's the same one...
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Jeff USAF RET
That's the one!
:-)
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ckeer
This causes theme song from CSI: to run through my mind. You know “Won’t be Fooled Again” by the Who. But this is about CES right? If you are interested in joining this "camaraderie of the committed" be sure to take JAL up on his suggestion to check them out and see how well they are applying the keys to the bibles interpretation and why they think VP would be so proud.
This is a document on their site: in reference to Jesus Christ the glue that knits them together and whom they stand for:
http://christianeducational.org/faq/v4i6b.pdf
I learned about it on this thread at LES
http://mail.bluzecentral.net/smf/index.php?topic=36.0
"Won't be fooled again!" - Fade to commercial ...
:)-->
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dmiller
Hiya Jeff!
:)--> How's the "supply guy' doing? Is this your way of spending a "quality" Saturday evening? 
;)--> 
:D--> 
;)-->
Tell John hi for me. Was good to see him at the festival in Bloomington.
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Juan Cruz
I'm sorry... I can't even read this.
and the part about Dr. Wierwille would be proud" (!) I do declare, it makes my head spin.
Long letters are often a sign of neuroticism... and that's what this is.... fundamentalist neuroticism.
"the keys" work as well as they ever did, John, ..fine, for those who wish to remain in a biblicist fog
I just read Marcus Borg's "Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time"...now there's a biblical scholar actually worth spending some time with. Warning, not for spiritually emaciated, no-fruit-of-the-spirit, nous in the sand Christians (New Knoxville style).
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JustThinking
Jeff,
This was posted at John's request?
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jackmm
John,
Just for your info, I threw out the baby, bathwater, soap, tub, bible, lexicons, concordances, everything!
The only time you'll find me in a religious environment is for a wedding or funeral.
Jack
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Jeff USAF RET
Hi JustThinking......
It is posted on the web in general and I know he would love everyone that had anything to do with TWI to read it.
So....I thought I would post it here for all to see his heart.
:-)
After I retired from the USAF I came to work for the ministry he started.
http://www.CESonline.org
:-)
Jeff
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WordWolf
"Isn't this the same old letter? I don't see a date?"
"This letter is new."
"I thought it looked very similar to this one posted here about a year ago that
had 'Revised March 2003' at the top...I think it's the same one..."
*links to identical letter, posted 12 months ago*
"That's the one!"
=====================
So,
isn't that functionally-equivalent to
"I was wrong-this is at least 12 months old.
It's new compared to the 'original', 1988 version"?
====================
I really think it's significant that the 2003 version of this letter-
the version 15 years after the 1988 version, has certain things identical.
Over 15 years later, he still left in
"In closing, let me say that I honestly believe that Dr. Wierwille would be very
proud of what we are doing."
Previously, GS'ers had some comments about this.
A pair of my favourites follow...
"Ok, so he was proud of Tick, proud of his boom-boom bus, and visibly proud of
his status as the 'man of God', #1 substitute for that absent Christ John Lynn
mentions.
Should the reader take this to be a posthumous endorsement of a philandering
sociopath, oh yeah, and cult leader?" "The reality is, Victor Paul Wierwille was a
seedy, sleazy, perverted, self-aggrandizing, thoroughly AND throughly
self-serving dirt baf, whatever he taught.Some of it had value, because, like all
counterfeits, it had to be close to the real thing. His odious approval in life,
AND from beyond the grave (what a laugh) is worth less than the bag of dirt he
was."
"To balance out the above,
Dr Wierwille's ministry also brought many people into a relationship with God and
through his ministry many people received eternal life."
Anything else I add to that will just be rehashes of one or the other.
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dmiller
To all -- and it's just another IMHO, so you can "read" --For What It's Worth".
Jal, and CES have changed. Neither are the same entity that they were in times past. Both have grown, and both are realizing, and accepting larger responsibilities.
While I am not sure about the "vpw would be proud" statement, I can say that CES has done it's "homework". The ministry they used to be, well -- they are not today. What they used to teach, well -- they don't teach the same stuff these days. Some of the teachings ( www.truthortradition.com ) still sound like twi, but most have better explanations and scriptural reference, than vpw gave.
They have evolved from an "information" group, to the "full-service" outfit, that frankly, meets more needs, even internationally. But imho, they are still an "informational group" that can be counted on to dig for stuff, and present it to the public.
I am one of their (small) financial supporters (I don't give a whole lot, each month), but I believe they are doing what they can to further the cause of Christ (more than me, by a long shot).
All pages on any of the 3 CES sites, are printer friendly, and one is encouraged to do so. I believe the cesonline is less so, since it is more or less the "home site".
But the site www.biblicalunitarian.com
and the site www.truthortradition.com
are one's you can "tap" into, and see what they are up to, today.
What JAL wrote, be it from 1988, or present, is his heart today. It was posted from a site that all can access. We've been burnt, we've been thrown out, we've been considered "so much garbage". I see that in the letter, yet I also see the fact that we can accept another WAY, the original one -- Jesus Christ.
As I said -- this is just an IMHO. I want the fish, and not the bones.
;)-->
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GrouchoMarxJr
Hi Jeff...hope you're doing well. Tell John Lynn that he's welcome to come in here to "chat" with us anytime...of course, we are not sitting quietly in our seats, listening to him pontificate from a pulpit. He would be sitting at a normal table in a normal chair, here at the GS cafe. We are not his audience, but he is welcome to converse here like everybody who follows the rules. Same goes for Shoenheit and Graeser...but if they're looking for the "lost sheep of twi", tell em to keep looking...someplace else....Oh, they might rope in few strays, but they better be ready to face those who are not impressed with their "biblical research".
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Juan Cruz
Yes, JAL, we know, we were all thrilled to have all those easy answers once ourselves.
And now, alas, we have to trudge through daily life like all those other peons... seeking what little light God grants to people without the "keys" to the perfect uninterpreted Word.
You know, I wouldn't trade in reality for all the illusions in Hollywood. Actually, I AM thrilled to be in a relationship with The One Who IS based on honesty and intellectual integrity rather than scriptural parlor tricks.
I know you wish you could show me how thrilling it is; that's the first step to getting into my life and wallet. No, thanks. Your Way is not my way. Why can't fundamentalists leave the rest of us alone? What bug is up their butt?
I know what they think it is. (love) but they have no self-knowledge... it's fear. If they can convince us, that's one more proof that their house of cards will stand (it won't).
If they are lucky it will stand till they die..then they will learn what the rest of us already know. There is no 'system' of truth wrapped up in brown paper (or India paper) with thin little red ribbons.
Ah, after all these years do I still need to express anger that these false teachers left me with? Or am I righteously angry, like my Lord was at the Pharisees? Is there a difference?
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Jeff USAF RET
Here is an article you might want to check out.
I have found it very healing and insightful.
It is posted in the doctrinal section.
I am glad I now know that Jesus is Lord (not God) but Lord. In ALL my days in TWI I can honestly say I never knew the Lord Jesus. John Lynn will be the first to tell you that as well.
Check it out.
Who is Jesus? by John Lynn
http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=9...552&m=569105224
Much love to ya!
Jeff
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WordWolf
I agree they're welcome to join in as an active participant and
an equal.
(Of course, mine is only one voice in the gallery, also, so my
DISagreement wouldn't count for much.
:)--> )
However, since many of us use screen-names, I've no guarantee they
don't already visit or post under a pseudonym.
I'm reasonably certain they already know this is not a good site
to do recruitment. (So far, only one person seems to disagree.)
:)-->
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TheInvisibleDan
I guess he's been working on the same letter for the past 20 years.
Does anyone recall his prophecies and interpretations being all the same as well?
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Danny
Dr. Hahahahahahahahahahhahahahhahaahahhahahahahahahahahhahahaha What kind of drugs are you taking? Can you say Idoltry.
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JustThinking
What kind of person say "I love you" in a form letter? I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's being honest, at least as he sees it. Still, kind of cheesy.
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Danny
Maybe he just holding onto the Mog thinking, so one day he will be the man.
He had a preaty good letter going except the Dr. part and the I love u twice.
Seemed to me if he was in the know and not kissed the ring of TWI it would of saved a whole bunch of pain to lots of us. Where was you backbone and stood up for what was right then. And why would i think You would stand up now with ending your letter about Dr. Who the hell cares what a dead man might think. How about this for a wild thought What does God think?
Jeff you might be a fine guy. Thanks but no thanks.
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TheManOfa Thousand ScreenNames
Yeah, I remember getting this letter in my email at one time (whichever version it was, 1.0, 1.2........).
I see, it's OUR fault.
So then, why exactly do we need you?
All for the low, low price of 19.95 (except where noted).
I can see why you would think people who go to an exway site would take the opinion of a man who led such an 'exemplary' life. I don't know about you, but I have some difficulty with deathbed 'conversions'.
A person realizes he/she's going to die and suddenly, faced with the prospect of going to 'hell' renounces everything they stood for in life. This is why you seem to find a LOT of 'Christians' in prison.
Please forgive my cynicism (which, I believe, your 'book' implores you to do). Thanks, but no thanks.
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Don'tFenceMeIn
Come on in here and duke it out John.
Don't be sending your little gopher boy in here with a mess of pottage (sorry Jeff).
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