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Research Geek

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"Isnt that kind of the reason why we forgive tho, is because what someone done was wrong. I understand what the motivation was. It was power and control. It was self serving from the top. This was the motive that "inspired the doctrine."

No, not me Sky. I forgive because I understand the reasoning behind the behavior. Motives such as what you mentioned, are in my opinion, unforgiveable unless the person has changed and is no longer motivated by such things.

My comment:

Restitution is impossible. There is no way to regain what is lost so it is better to simply grieve and move on, taking with me the knowledge that despite it all and more likely because of it all, I am a stronger and better person now than I was four or five years ago.

Your response:

I dont know about that either abby. If you swim downstream all your life you never get any muscles.

This I don't understand at all, can you please explain to me what you mean?

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Shelly,

"There is a lot of strength to be gained in fighting for your sanity, staying afloat amidst the reproof and corrections, simply surviving what could very well have drown me. "

Exactly. When I finally left twi and stood on my own two feet, when I look back and see where I was and how far I've come, I realize that I have a lot more strength than I ever gave myself credit for prior to my twi days. Knowing that helps me to have the strength I sometimes need to face the new challanges that life throws at me from time to time.

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god forgive me, but did lindyhopper read or post here ? i think a lot of what he has to say.

and simonzelotes also and tomtuttle and fellowshipper and nika and about a few dozen others....

are you ready for them ?

a lot of them live it

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Posted By Research Geek

quote:

Hi folks,

I wonder what Jesus would say if he read our posts on Greasespot. That's an

interesting question, isn't it?


Hmm? Why wonder about that?

quote:
We're a mixed lot: some oldster greasespotters who check out the forums once in a while, but have mostly moved past their prolific posting days, some regulars who still get something out of posting every day, many lurkers who come here to witness this menagerie, and some newbies who really need this forum to air their emotions and seek reinforcement and validation for their feelings and experiences. I come here once in a while to test the wind. I'd like to float this idea to see what you all think. Maybe, for some it will be the appropriate time to consider this, for others not, I know this, so if you are not ready for this yet, OK, maybe later...
I think you are doing more that simply floating an idea. It seems much more likely that you are promoting a YOUR particular version of "forgiveness" and implying that some folks here need to jump on that.

While the Bible clearly tells us to forgive, I am not so sure that what you are suggesting is what I understand the biblical version of forgiveness to actually be.

quote:
One of the loftiest, yet most essential concepts introduced by Jesus Christ, and one of the most foundational tenents of first-century Christianity is forgiveness. It undeniably is one of the most difficult teachings of Jesus to attain, but also is undeniably one of the most healing in its effects. We all have been hurt by lcm and his henchmen, or by other people connected with twi. Some of the offenders are no longer affiliated with twi, some are dead, others are still sitting pretty in that outfit. Meanwhile we are trying to get on with our lives after suffering various levels of abuse by the hands of these aforementioned twi representatives. My question to you is are you ready to try some forgiveness?
Like Satori, I don't necesarily see forgiveness as lofty or necessarily difficult - at least not forgiveness as I understand it. ( Satori's definition works pretty good for the most part). But I would like something more clear from you.

Also, it is interesting that you started your list of those we possibly need to forgive with "LCM and his henchmen" instead of VPW and his henchmen, but I will not make any assumptions there. However, in the spirit of your post (forgiveness as it relates to folks in TWI), it seems to me that VPW should have been at the beginning of the list instead of being unnamed - since much of the harm actually began with him.

quote:
What you say, shall I let them off the hook? They are impenitent still so they do not deserve it!
Letting folks "off the hook" implies absolution and non accountablilty. I don't believe that this is necessarlily a part of human forgiveness in a biblical context. While we were indeed "let off the hook" by God in our salvation by grace, we are not talking about God's forgiveness and grace unto salvation, but instead human forgiveness as taught by Jesus which is directed to those who were allegedly already saved and who abused and ran roughshod over others - in the name of God. I recall something about millstones. I also see in Luke where forgivenss is conditional upon repentance - you seem to have glossed this over.

Where in the scriptures is it suggested that folks should "forgive" the "impentinent"? Where does God himself "forgive" the impentinnent?

quote:
But consider who gets the most benefits from forgiveness. Does the forgiver or the offender benefit the most? From what I have witnessed on Greasespot, there are many of us who still harbor negative feelings for those who abused us. These negative feelings range from minor irritation all the way to vehement revenge. But consider this before you direct a salvo my way... Oftentimes the offender is oblivious, yet we steam, so who is affected more? We are. And undoubtedly these negaitve felings hurt us far more than those they are directed against.
I think you have confused what we are to do when the offender is not repentant with actual forgiveness. True forgiveness does not happen without repentance. God requires it. Why should the standard be set even higher for human beings?

I agree that continued negative feelings (anger, rage, revenge, etc )hurt the one harboring them more than the one they are directed against. However, I am not so sure that what you are suggesting is actually the biblical forgiveness that Jesus exhorted us to do.

quote:
So I ask, is anyone ready for some forgiveness? Is it not true that Job was not healed until he could bring himself to pray for his friends? Is it not true that Jesus told us to pray for our enemies and to love them. Was Jesus nuts, or did he have our best interests in mind? Consider what forgiveness may bring to you.

Does anyone want to talk about this?


Does praying for your friends equate to forgiveness? - I don't think so. Is praying for your enemies the same as forgiveness? Again, I don't necessarily think so. While these things are good and encouraged, they are not "forgiveness".

Research Geek, as a research guy (I take that to mean biblical research), why not lay out a clear and concise biblical research paper on what you think biblical forgiveness actually is. Tie it in to what happend to folks at the hands of VPW, LCM and other so called "leaders". Explain why (according to the bible) these men & women ought to be "forgiven" without their repentance. (An apology so often demanded by some here is not actually repentance.) And explain just what it is they are to be forgiven for.

Goey

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abby:

I dont know about that either abby. If you swim downstream all your life you never get any muscles.

This I don't understand at all, can you please explain to me what you mean?

Just simply that, God doesnt spare us any circumstances wether false doctrines (TWI) ,difficulty with others or lifes other problems in an effort to get us to use his provisions for overcoming the crap.

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quote:
Where in the scriptures is it suggested that folks should "forgive" the "impentinent"?
Goey, off the top of my head, there's a few scriptures that back up the idea of forgiveness without repentence being required first.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

God didn't require our repentence first, before willing to ask Christ to die.

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

By grace we are saved, God's gift, even when we were dead in sins. Not by good works.

Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

In the very same chapter you say repentence is a requirement, Jesus forgave those who were killing him, without them repenting first.

Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Stephen was filled with the spirit. He asked God not to charge those who were killing him with murder. He forgave them without them repenting first.

Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also [do] ye.

Here, the standard for forgiveness is not wait till a person repents first before you can be forbearing and forgive, but you forbear and forgive because even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

It begins with Christ forgiving you (even when you were dead in sins), leaving you free to forgive others.

I'm sure there are additional examples.

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To fogive means "to cancel the debt". Just like God cancelled our debt.

It is very clear in God's Word that our response to God forgiving us--that we are to forgive others.

People who refuse to forgive others have still not come to understand that they themselves have been forgiven. In other words--they dont understand the most basic message of the gospel. It is a perfect example of "walking in the flesh".

People who cannot forgive others have no understanding of what God has forgiven "them" for.

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Here's another biblical account of forgiveness of sin without a requirement of confession or repentence first:

Mar 2:2 And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive [them], no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them.

Mar 2:3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.

Mar 2:4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken [it] up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.

Mar 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

Mar 2:6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,

Mar 2:7 Why doth this [man] thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

Mar 2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

Mar 2:9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, [Thy] sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?

Mar 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

Mar 2:11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.

Mar 2:12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

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Oldiesman, Let me ask you a question, if you had a daughter that was raped or sexually abused, how willing would you be to forgive that person without them showing any godly repentance to their sin? Could you honestly live with yourself and face your daughter with out that person making some kind of godly restitution or would you just simply walk away and forgive him while the creep continues his abuse over and over again.

Maybe Jesus received revelation in each of those situations on whether to ask for repentance first, I believe God sure knew what was in the heart of those men and let his son know where they were at before he did the forgiveness thing.

Cowgirl

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Try this on for size, CW.

God has foreknowledge.

I don't.

When God asked Jesus to die on the cross, He knew that someday people would believe on him unto eternal life. (John 3:16, Rom. 10:9-10, pick your favorite salvation scripture.)

When Jesus forgave the palsied man, he knew what was in the man's heart. And it can be argued that any event recorded in the Bible does not mention every detail, but rather summarizes the event. We don't know if the man repented or not. It doesn't say. Doesn't mean he didn't, just that the emphasis of the story was on the reaction of the scribes and Jesus' teaching, not on the details of the man's state of mind.

Now, when someone sins against me, unless I get revelation, I don't know what is in that person's heart. But if he repents, which I can see by his actions and hear by his words, then I am bound to forgive him.

I agree with you -- I ain't God, and God doesn't expect me to be.

Regards,

Shaz

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Cowgirl, oh what a nice trick question.

First, God doesn't require us to receive revelation first, before we can forgive.

God doesn't require us to have to receive repentence first, before we can forgive someone.

Now if I were witnessing a rape, I wouldn't walk away and forgive right then. I'd do my best to stop it. Laws even allow me to kill, to stop it, and I'd be perfectly justified. So no, I wouldn't just walk away.

But that's different and a far far cry than me hearing about a rape that happened 30 years ago. I believe under those conditions, God wants me to not harbor anger, wrath, and malice, but to be forbearing, tenderhearted, and forgive. Not only is it the godly thing to do, but helps the healing process as Research Geek suggested and helps me be totally free from it and be able to move on. I believe forgiveness helps folks to move on with their lives, among other things.

If you wait for a person to repent before you can forgive them, you may never get to forgive them cause the repentence may never come. And in the case of a dead person, it will never come in your lifetime.

So then that gives you the justification to never forgive?

Nah. We are not bound by the actions of another, before we ourselves can take godly actions.

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Oldiesman, you said "Here's another biblical account of forgiveness of sin without a requirement of confession or repentance first. Mark 2:2-12"

Ok................please explain 1 John 1:9

IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Cowgirl

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Oldies, you don't need to forgive Wierwille, he didn't rape you. Unless perhaps you wanted to forgive him for misrepresentation. Since he's dead, it's a little late.

However, there are a number of his victims who deserve forebearance and tenderheartedness.

Shaz

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And oldies, you got it backwards. You said, "God doesn't require us to have to receive repentence first, before we can forgive someone."

It's true, one can certainly forgive someone who hasn't repented if one wants to. That would be giving mercy -- sometimes a good thing, for the sinner and the one sinned against. But God requires that we forgive someone who has repented.

Shaz

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Another way to look at it.........Romans 12:19

Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Paul demonstrated this when he was talking to Timothy about Alexander the coppersmith. How Alexander had done him a great deal of harm and that the Lord would repay him for what he had done. He even warned Timothy to be on his guard against him. Not only had Paul NOT forgiven Alexander because Alexander had not repented, he also did not whitewash the matter by offering an easy forgiveness to Alexander, instead he did the responsible thing by turning Alexander over to God.

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quote:
Originally posted by Cowgirl:

Ok................please explain 1 John 1:9

IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


All that this verse says that if we fullfil a condition, i.e. confessing our sins, he will forgive those sins. It does not say that if we don't confess our sins he won't or can't forgive them.

Although it pains me to agree with the head brownie-eater himself, one exception to the theory that forgiveness is available only to those who ask for it pretty much disproves it as a rule.

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Good grief.

Oldies, you have already freely admitted that your experience in the cult was a good one. Since the context of this thread seems to be forgiving the cult abusers, I question your input here.

What the heck do you know?

And, for the record, to me, forgiveness of someone who has personally SINNNED against me, is a gift I freely offer. It's not dependent on their state of mind, repentance, guilt, whatever. Actually, I don't think it has as much to do with them, as it does with me.

That being said, spouting platitudes and generalities adds nothing to the dialogue.

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Ahhh Oldies,

Trick Question?

Do you really think CG offered you a "trick question?"

Seems to me you think that because you present such things a "trick question" can offer such an energising subtilty your thoughts. Nah, CG did not offer a trick question to Oldies.

Oldies is up to his own trick answers his trick questions of his past posts. An answer his own trickery which he reads into others. Or maybe his understanding is relevent his training in that he really does not understand what a cult maybe. Hobble upon your own way Oldies, there is a rocking chair where ever you choose to take a sit good man.

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"Just simply that, God doesnt spare us any circumstances wether false doctrines (TWI) ,difficulty with others or lifes other problems in an effort to get us to use his provisions for overcoming the crap."

Well Sky, first I have to say I am not convinced that the crap we have to face in this life comes from God. I would then go on to say, recognizing we cannot change the past, letting go, and moving forward with one's life is hardly swimming downstream. In fact, I would suggest it is the very opposite.

peace

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