It's their denial to put Jesus where he needs to be that gives them their bs doctrine of the "absent Christ." They don't get it, never will get it, and will always be in the dark. Just go there and try to say Jesus without adding Christ.....
I took Pfal in the late 70's. I would say Jesus was on his way out the door way back then. But so he was with many other "orthodox" religions also.
The concept of 'Holiness" which simply means inward cleanliness was lacking back then. Weirwillisms, caned the gospels as irrelevant, thus making Jesus a token figure in Word cliches which became the panacea for the living Lord and the Holy Spirit.
the idea of being ambassadors for God got so out of control I think folks puffed up in what they could do for God while in the way people no longer needed the works of Jesus Christ because what they think they were accomplishing, going wow ,going into the corps, giving money was so much "greater"
I took Pfal in the late 70's. I would say Jesus was on his way out the door way back then. But so he was with many other "orthodox" religions also.
The concept of 'Holiness" which simply means inward cleanliness was lacking back then. Weirwillisms, caned the gospels as irrelevant, thus making Jesus a token figure in Word cliches which became the panacea for the living Lord and the Holy Spirit.
Thanks sky.
Yeah.....by the late 70s, twi was changing into a corporate entity and other things were taking a back seat.
With hindsight......and a 30-year perspective of looking at twi......it seems like they "sold out" to marketing classes, promoting programs, counting numbers, and twisting scriptures.
In a nutshell......twi fell prey to the lusts of the flesh and is fulfilling religious agendas. And, twi will be numbered alongside the others that have come to naught.
Auctioned off to the deceitful bidder........going, going and gone said he.
I think we should clarify things a little bit. Yes VPW used the words "The Word takes the place of the absent Christ". Did he mean that Christ was absent? I don't think so.
When he taught 4 crucified, the day Christ died, the mystery, etc. VPW taught a lot about Jesus Christ. In fact, I personally think it was brilliant the way he taught people about Jesus Christ without preaching at people.
Yet, the absent Christ! I certainly don't think VPW thought Christ was absent, only that he was not physically present on earth. Our physical relation to God and Jesus Christ was this Bible which we could touch, hold, and read.
I do believe that most TWI members (yes, I said members) believed very, very strongly in Jesus Christ during the 60's and 70's. In the early '80's, knowledge became preeminent over one's relationship with their lord and savior. For some reason, people started to literalize the mentioning of the absent Christ as meaning knowledge of the Word is the priority. I personally never believed that, but it seems some did.
Part of it was the whole us-vs-them thing against the churches. The churches talked about Jesus a lot, and VPW and LCM didn't want TWI to be like the churches, so people tried to be Christian, yet not act like, look like, or sound like the churchers. In trying to be un-like the churches, many TWI members went too far in the opposite direction. I was a reaction to circumstances rather than a belief in the truth.
In my opinion, the "absent Christ" doctrine was a classic bait and switch scheme. The written word takes the place of the absent (not here on earth) Christ...and seeing that Veepee was "in charge" of deciphoring the holy writ for us...he "sorta" became the head of the body. Wierwille taught about the "great mystery" but in practice, he preferred the "Moses as man of God" role for himself...of course martindale took the cue and became "Joshua". In effect, the absent Christ doctrine denied an ACTIVE role for Christ in the here and now...his role as head of the body became an academic thing, you were not allowed to converse with him directly. Consequently, the "waytree" echelon took the place of the spiritual body of Christ in how we all interacted.
With Christ not present, the doors were opened for Wierwille's Frankenstein monsters (new creatures) to grow and evolve. Jesus was no longer someone you talked to, he was someone that you "assimilated". Christ in you, the hope of self glory...By severing any attempt to communicate directly with the savior, we were on our own to become spiritual hybrids...self made super conquerors! The focus was on the ego and the pretense was false humility. The waycorps exemplified this. Had anyone in twi actually followed the Lord, the ego trips, sex trips, money trips, and all the abuse would not have been so rampant amoung the top "leaders".
I think it's fair to catagorize twi as Christianity without Christ.
quote:For some reason, people started to literalize the mentioning of the absent Christ as meaning knowledge of the Word is the priority.
That for some reason came from the leadership and teachings from hq on down. I remember my husband and I discussing why they even had songs to and about Jesus in the "Sing Along the Way" songbook after a particularly scathing teaching by Craig. They did a pretty good job of teaching us to hate Jesus in a way.
Everything they did teach about Jesus was a back-handed compliment. The only time we read anything in the gospels was when it validated something Paul taught. Sure, we talked about Jesus at Christmas and at Easter, but it wasn't to give glory to him.
I do believe that most TWI members (yes, I said members) believed very, very strongly in Jesus Christ during the 60's and 70's. In the early '80's, knowledge became preeminent over one's relationship with their lord and savior. For some reason, people started to literalize the mentioning of the absent Christ as meaning knowledge of the Word is the priority. I personally never believed that, but it seems some did.
Part of it was the whole us-vs-them thing against the churches. The churches talked about Jesus a lot, and VPW and LCM didn't want TWI to be like the churches, so people tried to be Christian, yet not act like, look like, or sound like the churchers. In trying to be un-like the churches, many TWI members went too far in the opposite direction. I was a reaction to circumstances rather than a belief in the truth.
You're making it sound like "leadership" was pushing an accurate reflection
of the Bible in doctrine and practice on this,
and that the rank-and-file were messing up and doing things in an ungodly
fashion,
instead of believers doing godly things in spite of self-serving leaders.
Please read up around the site.
I think what some of the other Bible fans have written will surprise the heck
out of you.
Most of us were victims of a BRILLIANT conjob during vpw's lifetime,
In my opinion, the "absent Christ" doctrine was a classic bait and switch scheme. The written word takes the place of the absent (not here on earth) Christ...and seeing that Veepee was "in charge" of deciphoring the holy writ for us...he "sorta" became the head of the body. Wierwille taught about the "great mystery" but in practice, he preferred the "Moses as man of God" role for himself...of course martindale took the cue and became "Joshua". In effect, the absent Christ doctrine denied an ACTIVE role for Christ in the here and now...his role as head of the body became an academic thing, you were not allowed to converse with him directly. Consequently, the "waytree" echelon took the place of the spiritual body of Christ in how we all interacted.
With Christ not present, the doors were opened for Wierwille's Frankenstein monsters (new creatures) to grow and evolve. Jesus was no longer someone you talked to, he was someone that you "assimilated". Christ in you, the hope of self glory...By severing any attempt to communicate directly with the savior, we were on our own to become spiritual hybrids...self made super conquerors! The focus was on the ego and the pretense was false humility. The waycorps exemplified this. Had anyone in twi actually followed the Lord, the ego trips, sex trips, money trips, and all the abuse would not have been so rampant amoung the top "leaders".
I think it's fair to catagorize twi as Christianity without Christ.
Your post certainly addresses some of the failing doctrines of TWI. Unfortunately for me and I think I can speak for others, we took these 'doctrines' as gospel truth and imbedded them into our skull. -->
quote: Had anyone in twi actually followed the Lord, the ego trips, sex trips, money trips, and all the abuse would not have been so rampant amoung the top "leaders".
How simple, yet how true.
For me I knew this was so, but excused 'top leaders' and their ways thinking that the 'pressure' at the top was so unbearable that the 'adversary' was hitting them doubly hard and therefore, they were only men and they would at times succumb to the pressures.
I did not realize that that scum lifestyle was brought on by the doctrine that was propounded.
You said it well when you said,
quote: Christ in you, the hope of self glory...By severing any attempt to communicate directly with the savior, we were on our own to become spiritual hybrids...self made super conquerors! The focus was on the ego and the pretense was false humility.
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Nottawayfer
It's their denial to put Jesus where he needs to be that gives them their bs doctrine of the "absent Christ." They don't get it, never will get it, and will always be in the dark. Just go there and try to say Jesus without adding Christ.....
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sky4it
skyrider:
nice name by the way.
I took Pfal in the late 70's. I would say Jesus was on his way out the door way back then. But so he was with many other "orthodox" religions also.
The concept of 'Holiness" which simply means inward cleanliness was lacking back then. Weirwillisms, caned the gospels as irrelevant, thus making Jesus a token figure in Word cliches which became the panacea for the living Lord and the Holy Spirit.
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mj412
the idea of being ambassadors for God got so out of control I think folks puffed up in what they could do for God while in the way people no longer needed the works of Jesus Christ because what they think they were accomplishing, going wow ,going into the corps, giving money was so much "greater"
really.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
where did all the buddah songs go?
where did all the Native Indians of north america songs go?
hmmm
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skyrider
Thanks sky.
Yeah.....by the late 70s, twi was changing into a corporate entity and other things were taking a back seat.
With hindsight......and a 30-year perspective of looking at twi......it seems like they "sold out" to marketing classes, promoting programs, counting numbers, and twisting scriptures.
In a nutshell......twi fell prey to the lusts of the flesh and is fulfilling religious agendas. And, twi will be numbered alongside the others that have come to naught.
Auctioned off to the deceitful bidder........going, going and gone said he.
skyrider
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Biblefan Dave
I think we should clarify things a little bit. Yes VPW used the words "The Word takes the place of the absent Christ". Did he mean that Christ was absent? I don't think so.
When he taught 4 crucified, the day Christ died, the mystery, etc. VPW taught a lot about Jesus Christ. In fact, I personally think it was brilliant the way he taught people about Jesus Christ without preaching at people.
Yet, the absent Christ! I certainly don't think VPW thought Christ was absent, only that he was not physically present on earth. Our physical relation to God and Jesus Christ was this Bible which we could touch, hold, and read.
I do believe that most TWI members (yes, I said members) believed very, very strongly in Jesus Christ during the 60's and 70's. In the early '80's, knowledge became preeminent over one's relationship with their lord and savior. For some reason, people started to literalize the mentioning of the absent Christ as meaning knowledge of the Word is the priority. I personally never believed that, but it seems some did.
Part of it was the whole us-vs-them thing against the churches. The churches talked about Jesus a lot, and VPW and LCM didn't want TWI to be like the churches, so people tried to be Christian, yet not act like, look like, or sound like the churchers. In trying to be un-like the churches, many TWI members went too far in the opposite direction. I was a reaction to circumstances rather than a belief in the truth.
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GrouchoMarxJr
In my opinion, the "absent Christ" doctrine was a classic bait and switch scheme. The written word takes the place of the absent (not here on earth) Christ...and seeing that Veepee was "in charge" of deciphoring the holy writ for us...he "sorta" became the head of the body. Wierwille taught about the "great mystery" but in practice, he preferred the "Moses as man of God" role for himself...of course martindale took the cue and became "Joshua". In effect, the absent Christ doctrine denied an ACTIVE role for Christ in the here and now...his role as head of the body became an academic thing, you were not allowed to converse with him directly. Consequently, the "waytree" echelon took the place of the spiritual body of Christ in how we all interacted.
With Christ not present, the doors were opened for Wierwille's Frankenstein monsters (new creatures) to grow and evolve. Jesus was no longer someone you talked to, he was someone that you "assimilated". Christ in you, the hope of self glory...By severing any attempt to communicate directly with the savior, we were on our own to become spiritual hybrids...self made super conquerors! The focus was on the ego and the pretense was false humility. The waycorps exemplified this. Had anyone in twi actually followed the Lord, the ego trips, sex trips, money trips, and all the abuse would not have been so rampant amoung the top "leaders".
I think it's fair to catagorize twi as Christianity without Christ.
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Belle
That for some reason came from the leadership and teachings from hq on down. I remember my husband and I discussing why they even had songs to and about Jesus in the "Sing Along the Way" songbook after a particularly scathing teaching by Craig. They did a pretty good job of teaching us to hate Jesus in a way.
Everything they did teach about Jesus was a back-handed compliment. The only time we read anything in the gospels was when it validated something Paul taught. Sure, we talked about Jesus at Christmas and at Easter, but it wasn't to give glory to him.
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WordWolf
You're making it sound like "leadership" was pushing an accurate reflection
of the Bible in doctrine and practice on this,
and that the rank-and-file were messing up and doing things in an ungodly
fashion,
instead of believers doing godly things in spite of self-serving leaders.
Please read up around the site.
I think what some of the other Bible fans have written will surprise the heck
out of you.
Most of us were victims of a BRILLIANT conjob during vpw's lifetime,
and a blatant manipulation after that.
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WordWolf
Interesting one, UH.
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A la prochaine
UH,
Your post certainly addresses some of the failing doctrines of TWI. Unfortunately for me and I think I can speak for others, we took these 'doctrines' as gospel truth and imbedded them into our skull.
-->
How simple, yet how true.
For me I knew this was so, but excused 'top leaders' and their ways thinking that the 'pressure' at the top was so unbearable that the 'adversary' was hitting them doubly hard and therefore, they were only men and they would at times succumb to the pressures.
I did not realize that that scum lifestyle was brought on by the doctrine that was propounded.
You said it well when you said,
Thank you.
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