I don't know if I viewed ordination as a carrot in front of the nose,but rather as a ministry version of "this is my beloved son,in whom I am well pleased"...When it hit me that I wasn't going to be one of the ordained ones,I did a lot of soul-searching,wondering why I fell short...I figured I just screwed off too much and didn't enforce the ministry standards diligently enough to those under my watch...It was disappointing at first,but preferable to trying to be somebody I was not...
quote: 3 - Eagle and Excathedra, you both have described my experience of the 90s exactly! Pressure, contantly changing standards that no human being could uphold, and the never-ending threat of getting chewed out for some slight infraction, all of which were multiplied if you were corps.
Got me to thinking about people who have lived with alcoholics (or people with other forms of abusive behavior). Because alcoholics are so often out of control, the people who live with them develop the habit of "reading the room" (is it safe, are they in a good mood or bad mood, how do I have to modify my behavior to not cause any waves?). The alcoholic is often a demanding perfectionist with impossible to achieve, often changing standards they subject others to. The people who live with this type of behavior are frustrated, beat down, suffer from low self esteem (for not being able to achieve the impossible), etc., etc.
But some of the longer term effects of having to live this way is that those people sometimes develop their own obsessive, controlling behavior in response to having to live with the often out-of-control alcoholic. Although some of these folks develop into alcoholics or pick up other out of control behavior, some adopt the opposite behavior and become control freaks themselves where neatness, time management, other sorts of nit picky details become an obsession - - out of a pure survival tactic - - to be able to control SOME portion of their current or previous out-of-control lives.
Those are VERY DIFFICULT habits to lose (as I can personally attest to having lived with an alcoholic for 18 years).
The reason I bring this up here is because of the narcissism and alcohlic behavior previously discussed in relation to VPW (and probably lcm)and was, IMHO, present in quite a number of leaders (some of whom come to mind are G*r*ald Wr*nn, D*ve B*dard, LCM, and countless folks who have served in a "leadership" capacity). I think many who were involved in twi and the Corps in particular, developed "control freak" behavior part due to the "group think" of the organization they were involved in, but part (IMHO)as a survival mechanism to the changing standards being mandated by these maniac "leaders" - - which were (and are) impossible to achieve.
Jardinero,your first paragraph describes quite aptly what in-residence training was like...Hell,you got yelled at even if you were on time...depending on the mood of the powers that be...Sometimes we would just laugh because one day you would get yelled at for doing something,and the next day,if Craig or VPW was in a good mood,you would be lauded for doing the exact same thing...
back in the 80's when i was young and easly persuaded i met many nice corps but man where they demanding! was not allowed to have easter dinner with my folks once. they were hurt and i smartened up.i know that seems not a big deal, but i still cringe when i see my now deceased dad's dissapointed face when we didn't show up for dinner.it hurt him and the foot that told me i couldn't go i bought him and his wife a car the next day!! talk about brainwashed!!!!!! oh and yeah vpw was a drunk! i got drunk with him more than twice, but at the time thought i was honored
I think there is a huge difference between a group of 12 or 25 in residence for training...and 500. The first 4 corps were small intimate groups that had a totally different experience than later corps did...and of course the corps that followed the "fog years" were yet another animal.
There was tremendous peer pressure to "establish yourself" as a leader by becoming an a$$hole. Many took to it like a duck to water, others, couldn't bring themselves to treating others that way...the end result was that the a$$holes were rewarded with promotions, while the "nice guys" were shown the door...or at least relegated to a lower position on the feeding tree...Overall, those corps who actually conducted themselves as Christians, eventually walked away...
Yeah, but even my WOW "sister" who was 4th corps was pretty much a Nazi most of the time. While we lived in the same apartment, I was 95% responsible to do all the cooking, cleaning and even some of her laundry. When not at home and in her presence, I was required to address her as Miss ******* rather than by her first name. I even had to be on hand when she sunbathed to oil her back.
This being my second year in TWI I put up with her organic fertilizer pretty much as a servant of God serving the WOG. She was always holding HA up as an example to me.
I tend to agree that the ones who had no aspirations to MOG-dom were wonderful.
Watered Garden, yes, let's not forget some of the women clergy could be just as bad as the men or worse. I have to know, what's was Ms. 4th's initials? I knew them all, I could make some guesses.
Johnny Lingo - you were one of the nicest, sweetest men I knew with a huge wonderful, kind heart for people. You were just a big loving person who played harmonica and wanted to serve God, so don't take it personally when I too wondered how in the heck you got ordained! You were not of that ilk at all, and still aren't. Your story of your ordination under the big tent has to be one of the funniest things I ever heard - you should share it if you feel so inspired.
He probably got a lot more cookies when he reached up into Daddy's cookie jar than we did...Or maybe because he sang the song "I Wish I Were The Man I Know To Be"....
Sunesis, she may have changed. She was very unhappy at being sent "on the field" and wanted to stay at HQ to be with WC only.
She tried like hell to get the WOW region coordinator to send me home, for no particular reason other than I wasn't WC. About 2-3 months into that year, she looked me straight in the eye and said in her honey-dripping Southern accent,
"Ah don't liuk yew, in fact, Ah cain't stand to look at yew. Why don't you go away, live in Florida or somethin' 'cause Ah don't want to live with someone who's not Wayuh Coe."
I bet Jesus said that to His disciples all the time, right?
PT me and I'll tell you who, if you haven't guessed by now.
lesssee, watered garden, you were in Ft. Worth, right??? (I was in Albuquerque that same year) so I am thinkin' your wunnerful BC was a sewin' type o' gal, with a syrupy Southern accent and initials o' SB --- do I win da door prize???
you must know Miss PA from you year in Ft. Worth; she was from CA and i knew her well before we went WOW. Also DF from cali was WOW there, as well.
wg, I was posting while u posted... I think I am right...
I just came home for work because I am sheetrocking a project right next to my house. And when I looked here and saw your post I am now all choked up. Thank you very much and I always loved you too. You make me want to be a better person. And, you are so hot , you should stay away from the ice cream coolers, because you will melt all of the ice cream!
And yeah, that ordination story really was funny, yes it was. I'll have to tap it out some time...
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excathedra
the cruelty of the corps program hurt me very much as a result i think i was kinder to others
alfakat
lesssee, watered garden, you were in Ft. Worth, right??? (I was in Albuquerque that same year) so I am thinkin' your wunnerful BC was a sewin' type o' gal, with a syrupy Southern accent and initials o
HCW
...It was. It DID happen A LOT. I'm thinking now that people being thrust into leadership roles they were not prepared for was more the norm than the exception. Even in "the old days" speak so fondly
outandabout
OOH I remember that thunderstorm! I thought it was the Devil who was ....ed that more great MOGs were getting ordained! ha
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Tom Strange
hmmm... there were a lot of those thunderstorms at the ROA's weren't there??? ...hmmm
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simonzelotes
Good post,Sunesis...
I don't know if I viewed ordination as a carrot in front of the nose,but rather as a ministry version of "this is my beloved son,in whom I am well pleased"...When it hit me that I wasn't going to be one of the ordained ones,I did a lot of soul-searching,wondering why I fell short...I figured I just screwed off too much and didn't enforce the ministry standards diligently enough to those under my watch...It was disappointing at first,but preferable to trying to be somebody I was not...
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skyrider
And, who got RAILED for their "believing" to stop the thunderstorms???....
.....the way corps
--> 
--> 
-->
.....VPW and LCM hated NOT BEING IN CONTROL.
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excathedra
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jardinero
The Highway said:
Got me to thinking about people who have lived with alcoholics (or people with other forms of abusive behavior). Because alcoholics are so often out of control, the people who live with them develop the habit of "reading the room" (is it safe, are they in a good mood or bad mood, how do I have to modify my behavior to not cause any waves?). The alcoholic is often a demanding perfectionist with impossible to achieve, often changing standards they subject others to. The people who live with this type of behavior are frustrated, beat down, suffer from low self esteem (for not being able to achieve the impossible), etc., etc.
But some of the longer term effects of having to live this way is that those people sometimes develop their own obsessive, controlling behavior in response to having to live with the often out-of-control alcoholic. Although some of these folks develop into alcoholics or pick up other out of control behavior, some adopt the opposite behavior and become control freaks themselves where neatness, time management, other sorts of nit picky details become an obsession - - out of a pure survival tactic - - to be able to control SOME portion of their current or previous out-of-control lives.
Those are VERY DIFFICULT habits to lose (as I can personally attest to having lived with an alcoholic for 18 years).
The reason I bring this up here is because of the narcissism and alcohlic behavior previously discussed in relation to VPW (and probably lcm)and was, IMHO, present in quite a number of leaders (some of whom come to mind are G*r*ald Wr*nn, D*ve B*dard, LCM, and countless folks who have served in a "leadership" capacity). I think many who were involved in twi and the Corps in particular, developed "control freak" behavior part due to the "group think" of the organization they were involved in, but part (IMHO)as a survival mechanism to the changing standards being mandated by these maniac "leaders" - - which were (and are) impossible to achieve.
J.
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simonzelotes
Jardinero,your first paragraph describes quite aptly what in-residence training was like...Hell,you got yelled at even if you were on time...depending on the mood of the powers that be...Sometimes we would just laugh because one day you would get yelled at for doing something,and the next day,if Craig or VPW was in a good mood,you would be lauded for doing the exact same thing...
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
back in the 80's when i was young and easly persuaded i met many nice corps but man where they demanding! was not allowed to have easter dinner with my folks once. they were hurt and i smartened up.i know that seems not a big deal, but i still cringe when i see my now deceased dad's dissapointed face when we didn't show up for dinner.it hurt him and the foot that told me i couldn't go i bought him and his wife a car the next day!! talk about brainwashed!!!!!! oh and yeah vpw was a drunk! i got drunk with him more than twice, but at the time thought i was honored
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
i may be a little off in posting this but i blame my divorce directly on the limb leader in maine in the 8o's
think he liked my wife if you know what i mean
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jardinero
Exactly, Simon. So sad.
But then, look on the bright side, you and the other surviving reprobate 9th Corps keep us very entertained here.
:D--> 
;)--> 
:P-->
Humor is very healing.
J.
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excathedra
((((( coolchef )))))
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jardinero
Yes, Excie - - present company excluded!
:D-->
J.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I think there is a huge difference between a group of 12 or 25 in residence for training...and 500. The first 4 corps were small intimate groups that had a totally different experience than later corps did...and of course the corps that followed the "fog years" were yet another animal.
There was tremendous peer pressure to "establish yourself" as a leader by becoming an a$$hole. Many took to it like a duck to water, others, couldn't bring themselves to treating others that way...the end result was that the a$$holes were rewarded with promotions, while the "nice guys" were shown the door...or at least relegated to a lower position on the feeding tree...Overall, those corps who actually conducted themselves as Christians, eventually walked away...
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Watered Garden
Yeah, but even my WOW "sister" who was 4th corps was pretty much a Nazi most of the time. While we lived in the same apartment, I was 95% responsible to do all the cooking, cleaning and even some of her laundry. When not at home and in her presence, I was required to address her as Miss ******* rather than by her first name. I even had to be on hand when she sunbathed to oil her back.
This being my second year in TWI I put up with her organic fertilizer pretty much as a servant of God serving the WOG. She was always holding HA up as an example to me.
I tend to agree that the ones who had no aspirations to MOG-dom were wonderful.
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Sunesis
Watered Garden, yes, let's not forget some of the women clergy could be just as bad as the men or worse. I have to know, what's was Ms. 4th's initials? I knew them all, I could make some guesses.
Johnny Lingo - you were one of the nicest, sweetest men I knew with a huge wonderful, kind heart for people. You were just a big loving person who played harmonica and wanted to serve God, so don't take it personally when I too wondered how in the heck you got ordained! You were not of that ilk at all, and still aren't. Your story of your ordination under the big tent has to be one of the funniest things I ever heard - you should share it if you feel so inspired.
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excathedra
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Steve!
HA = Howard Allen.
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excathedra
ohmygod she was miss veepee and you were miss howard ? that's "hilarious" (i know it wasn't really)
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tomtuttle
... how did "Harve" get ordained???
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simonzelotes
He probably got a lot more cookies when he reached up into Daddy's cookie jar than we did...Or maybe because he sang the song "I Wish I Were The Man I Know To Be"....
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excathedra
it was the brown suit
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Watered Garden
Sunesis, she may have changed. She was very unhappy at being sent "on the field" and wanted to stay at HQ to be with WC only.
She tried like hell to get the WOW region coordinator to send me home, for no particular reason other than I wasn't WC. About 2-3 months into that year, she looked me straight in the eye and said in her honey-dripping Southern accent,
"Ah don't liuk yew, in fact, Ah cain't stand to look at yew. Why don't you go away, live in Florida or somethin' 'cause Ah don't want to live with someone who's not Wayuh Coe."
I bet Jesus said that to His disciples all the time, right?
PT me and I'll tell you who, if you haven't guessed by now.
WG
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alfakat
lesssee, watered garden, you were in Ft. Worth, right??? (I was in Albuquerque that same year) so I am thinkin' your wunnerful BC was a sewin' type o' gal, with a syrupy Southern accent and initials o' SB --- do I win da door prize???
you must know Miss PA from you year in Ft. Worth; she was from CA and i knew her well before we went WOW. Also DF from cali was WOW there, as well.
wg, I was posting while u posted... I think I am right...
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J0nny Ling0
Ahh Sunesis.
I just came home for work because I am sheetrocking a project right next to my house. And when I looked here and saw your post I am now all choked up. Thank you very much and I always loved you too. You make me want to be a better person. And, you are so hot , you should stay away from the ice cream coolers, because you will melt all of the ice cream!
And yeah, that ordination story really was funny, yes it was. I'll have to tap it out some time...
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