The Catholic Church is the universal church. There are those portions that are in communion with the Holy Father, such as the Latin Rite, the Maronite Rite, the Byzantine Rite, the Copts, the Chaldeans, etc. There are those portions that are schismatic, but still orthodox in their beliefs, such as the Greek Orthodox, the Assyrians, etc. Then there are those that are both schismatic and heretical, such as the Lutherans, the Methodists, the Baptists, etc. But, you are right...although fractured through schism and heresy, it is one Catholic (universal) church.
I loved the few posts that the first thing they thought of was "seed". I did have that thought but it was not my first. I don't think the Pope is seed and I think he did what he could to move goodness foward in this world as he saw fit.
I look back some 19 years ago since I have been out and see VPW and LCM and RR very close to being seed. When I say I see them as almost being seed. I don't think they are seed but a very heavy influence. I have not hardly cracked a bible in the past 19 years. I do remember what was taught about devil spirits in the twi. From what I have seen and read about TWI and according to their own teachings. TWI is infested with them and it is very close to the devil himself running the twi. JMHO
i wasn't sure if i should start a new thread but.. i decided to put this here...
it is my opinion.. but i think that im still coming from a twi point of view..
the pope is in charge of one of the worlds largest organizations,, 1.1 billion people..
what does this guy do? besides run a huge business?
and what did he do for children? im sure he help set up a lot of things for kids, but what did he do when his people were found out to be abusing kids?
im not trying to be ann foot, im just trying to figure out more about this guy and that church.
also,, twi thinks that all the popes are anti-christs.. at least lcm did, and so do a lot of the leaders.
When I was attending the Advanced Class in '79 the then pope died and VeePee said Satan did it to disrupt his class. The Adversary was upset because so much of God's Word was getting out in Emporia.
I just wonder what is going on in TWI today that the Devil needed to kill the pope?
While still a priest in Krakow, he was ten times the man Vic knew to be, or ever was. He became much more than that and, even in this infidel's eyes, a blessing to the world. How twi views him is about as significant as how a stray cat views me.
Maybe it was in '78? Don't remember the exact year anymore.
Stayed Too Long -- I'm thinking it was late 78, early 79. (I don't remember what year things happened so good either!) -->
I do remember hearing in twig, from one person -- Martha Credit (wife to Peter Credit) who made the comment about the Pope chosen previously (who died in office after only being there for a coupla months) how God certainly had no choice in the matter, since the man died after just a sort time in *office*.
Like I say -- I don't remember so well either, and the years get fuzzier, as they pass me by. :)-->
im not trying to be an foot, im just trying to figure out more about this guy and that church.
The Pope is the head of the Catholic church, and in the past, has just been a figurehead, but this one has transcended all that, and reached out to many countries, peoples, and has done much to alleviate injustice in the world.
I for one will miss him, and can only hope his successor is equally effective.
im not trying to be ann foot, im just trying to figure out more about this guy and that church.
IMHO the way to understand what the Pope is to understand the various titles applied to him:
- He is the Bishop of Rome. That is a no-brainer.
- He is the Vicar of Christ: (Before you get up in arms, please note the following)
quote:
Matthew 16:17 Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
(btw, compare to statement to the 12 as a whole in Matthew 18:18 -- Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Note the lack of "keys" -- piece of trivia, there)
- He is the successor of St. Peter. There have been 263 Popes since Jesus first made the statement to Simon, "You are Peter, and upon this rock..."
- He is Prince of the Apostles. The apostles either paid deference to Peter, or, they left communion with him. Since that time, the bishops (the successors to the Apostles) pay deference to the successor of Peter.
- He is supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church. This refers to his teaching/doctrinal/pastoral role.
quote:
John 21:16 He then said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep."
17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep.
- He is the Patriarch of the West. This refers to his role in religious governance -- his spot in the hierarchy.
- He is the Servant of the Servants of God. In this function, consider the scene where Jesus washed the apostles' feet.
- He is the Primate of Italy. Also a hierarchial title, relating to the leader of several provinces.
- He is the Metropolitan of the Province of Rome. Another hierarchial title, relating to the leader of a province.
- He is the Sovereign of Vatican City State. Remember that the Vatican is a sovereign country. He is the head of state. (This used to be a lot more significant during the times of the Papal States)
I know there are a lot of folks that reject all of the above and, well, fine. But, for those who are interested, hopefully that helps.
When there is a Pope like the one we just had, you can see a lot of those titles lived out. I'm the last one in the world to say that all of them have been good or that all of them have done the right thing. But that's what they are supposed to do.
and what did he do for children? im sure he help set up a lot of things for kids, but what did he do when his people were found out to be abusing kids?
Valid question. The biggest thing he did was to correct a lot of problems that were going on in the seminaries. You will please note that the dates of the vast majority of the abuses with kids actually happened in the 70s and 80s. You will note that the vast majority of the abuses happened in a few dioceses...yeah, there were some all over, but the bulk of them were concentrated in only a few places. I would also like to mention that the vast majority of priests who have been found to abuse those kids were ordained during the 60s and 70s. Again, there were some big problems in the seminaries during those years. A lot of those problems have been fixed. I'm not saying "all" of them, but you can definitely tell differences in priests ordained in the past 10 years, compared to priests ordained during the 60s and 70s.
As to the cover-up...there is a lot to that, but the bottom line is that the church is "scandal-phobic." They like to keep things quiet. Thus they created a far bigger scandal than what there would have been had they been more open. Also, a lot of what happened was so variable because each bishop runs his own church, with input from the Vatican...its not like the Vatican has tight administrative control over each diocese in the world. So that's why you see such a difference in how different dioceses handled the problem. You saw the worst problems by far in Boston, but there are other places where the priest was removed from pastoral responsibilities immediately and not transferred.
But, the bottom line is what did he do about it? I think he did a lot to fix the underlying problems that caused it, not so much to fix the problem that already existed (at least not much visible to us...maybe more in the background).
I did not say a blasphemer. The word heretic means: "one who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine" -- Martin Luther dissented from several beliefs. Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, and consubstantiation vice transsubstantiation are but a few. But, I was referring to those groups whose beliefs are heterodox as compared to the Magesterium.
Having said that, though, I too am thankful for the negotiations that have been going on between the Lutherans and the Church. There have been tremendous efforts, particularly under JPII, to bring groups back into communion with the Holy See.
(but somehow I think a discussion of the differences between consubstantiation and transsubstantiation would likely bore folks here to death :D-->)
It took me several years after leaving TWI to come to the realization that the Catholic church was not totally the "Evil Empire" that TWI made it out to be.
LCM frequently vented regarding the Pope being a seed boy, and all the nuns were just a bunch of spiritual whores. I adopted that attitude myself for decades, and pray God forgives me for my ignorance.
There are good men and bad men just about everywhere you go. You learn to keep the good, and reject the bad. I don't agree doctrinally with many things in the Catholic church, and if you talk to many Catholics, you'll find that a great many of them don't agree with it either, especially regarding the prohibition of admitting women to the priesthood or not allowing priests to marry. But there is a lot of good mixed in with the bad. And J2P2, as LCM used to call him, did more for the human race than that backwards talking/thinking Okie redneck could ever hope to accomplish.
And consider these words:
"People are often unreasonable, illogical and self-centered--
Forgive them anyway.
If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives--
Be kind anyway.
If you are successful, you will win some false friends and some true enemies--
Succeed anyway.
If you are honest and frank, people may cheat you--
Be honest and frank anyway.
What you spend years building, someone could destroy overnight--
Build anyway.
If you find serenity and happiness, they may be jealous--
Be happy anyway.
The good you do today, people will often forget tomorrow--
Do good anyway.
Give the world the best you have, and it may never be enough--
Give the world the best you've got anyway.
You see, in the final analysis, it is between you and God--
It was never between you and them anyway."
Who spoke these words?
The woman whom L. Craig Martindale publicly considered a spiritual slut:
Mother Theresa was a wonderful person but she was not the author of Anyway. Anyway is a version of "The Paradoxical Commandments" which were written by Kent M. Keith.
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markomalley
Engine, you have a good point.
The Catholic Church is the universal church. There are those portions that are in communion with the Holy Father, such as the Latin Rite, the Maronite Rite, the Byzantine Rite, the Copts, the Chaldeans, etc. There are those portions that are schismatic, but still orthodox in their beliefs, such as the Greek Orthodox, the Assyrians, etc. Then there are those that are both schismatic and heretical, such as the Lutherans, the Methodists, the Baptists, etc. But, you are right...although fractured through schism and heresy, it is one Catholic (universal) church.
Thanks for bringing that out.
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Kit Sober
Pope John Paul II lived for me what "father in the Word" might stand for:
The priest at Mass this morning could not keep from crying over this loss.
"We loved him because he first loved us," has a most personal meaning for me today.
Kit
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justloafing
I loved the few posts that the first thing they thought of was "seed". I did have that thought but it was not my first. I don't think the Pope is seed and I think he did what he could to move goodness foward in this world as he saw fit.
I look back some 19 years ago since I have been out and see VPW and LCM and RR very close to being seed. When I say I see them as almost being seed. I don't think they are seed but a very heavy influence. I have not hardly cracked a bible in the past 19 years. I do remember what was taught about devil spirits in the twi. From what I have seen and read about TWI and according to their own teachings. TWI is infested with them and it is very close to the devil himself running the twi. JMHO
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nandon
i wasn't sure if i should start a new thread but.. i decided to put this here...
it is my opinion.. but i think that im still coming from a twi point of view..
the pope is in charge of one of the worlds largest organizations,, 1.1 billion people..
what does this guy do? besides run a huge business?
and what did he do for children? im sure he help set up a lot of things for kids, but what did he do when his people were found out to be abusing kids?
im not trying to be ann foot, im just trying to figure out more about this guy and that church.
also,, twi thinks that all the popes are anti-christs.. at least lcm did, and so do a lot of the leaders.
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Stayed Too Long
When I was attending the Advanced Class in '79 the then pope died and VeePee said Satan did it to disrupt his class. The Adversary was upset because so much of God's Word was getting out in Emporia.
I just wonder what is going on in TWI today that the Devil needed to kill the pope?
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Stayed Too Long
Maybe it was in '78? Don't remember the exact year anymore.
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engine
Nandon,
May I suggest reading the Sunday paper on the Pope for a good starting point on what he did.
That should give ya' some info. to help git dem Waybrain away from ya'.
Rob
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LG
While still a priest in Krakow, he was ten times the man Vic knew to be, or ever was. He became much more than that and, even in this infidel's eyes, a blessing to the world. How twi views him is about as significant as how a stray cat views me.
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dmiller
Stayed Too Long -- I'm thinking it was late 78, early 79. (I don't remember what year things happened so good either!)
-->
I do remember hearing in twig, from one person -- Martha Credit (wife to Peter Credit) who made the comment about the Pope chosen previously (who died in office after only being there for a coupla months) how God certainly had no choice in the matter, since the man died after just a sort time in *office*.
Like I say -- I don't remember so well either, and the years get fuzzier, as they pass me by.
:)-->
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dmiller
Nandon -- you said --
The Pope is the head of the Catholic church, and in the past, has just been a figurehead, but this one has transcended all that, and reached out to many countries, peoples, and has done much to alleviate injustice in the world.
I for one will miss him, and can only hope his successor is equally effective.
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markomalley
IMHO the way to understand what the Pope is to understand the various titles applied to him:
- He is the Bishop of Rome. That is a no-brainer.
- He is the Vicar of Christ: (Before you get up in arms, please note the following)
- He is the successor of St. Peter. There have been 263 Popes since Jesus first made the statement to Simon, "You are Peter, and upon this rock..."
- He is Prince of the Apostles. The apostles either paid deference to Peter, or, they left communion with him. Since that time, the bishops (the successors to the Apostles) pay deference to the successor of Peter.
- He is supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church. This refers to his teaching/doctrinal/pastoral role.
- He is the Patriarch of the West. This refers to his role in religious governance -- his spot in the hierarchy.
- He is the Servant of the Servants of God. In this function, consider the scene where Jesus washed the apostles' feet.
- He is the Primate of Italy. Also a hierarchial title, relating to the leader of several provinces.
- He is the Metropolitan of the Province of Rome. Another hierarchial title, relating to the leader of a province.
- He is the Sovereign of Vatican City State. Remember that the Vatican is a sovereign country. He is the head of state. (This used to be a lot more significant during the times of the Papal States)
I know there are a lot of folks that reject all of the above and, well, fine. But, for those who are interested, hopefully that helps.
When there is a Pope like the one we just had, you can see a lot of those titles lived out. I'm the last one in the world to say that all of them have been good or that all of them have done the right thing. But that's what they are supposed to do.
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markomalley
Valid question. The biggest thing he did was to correct a lot of problems that were going on in the seminaries. You will please note that the dates of the vast majority of the abuses with kids actually happened in the 70s and 80s. You will note that the vast majority of the abuses happened in a few dioceses...yeah, there were some all over, but the bulk of them were concentrated in only a few places. I would also like to mention that the vast majority of priests who have been found to abuse those kids were ordained during the 60s and 70s. Again, there were some big problems in the seminaries during those years. A lot of those problems have been fixed. I'm not saying "all" of them, but you can definitely tell differences in priests ordained in the past 10 years, compared to priests ordained during the 60s and 70s.
As to the cover-up...there is a lot to that, but the bottom line is that the church is "scandal-phobic." They like to keep things quiet. Thus they created a far bigger scandal than what there would have been had they been more open. Also, a lot of what happened was so variable because each bishop runs his own church, with input from the Vatican...its not like the Vatican has tight administrative control over each diocese in the world. So that's why you see such a difference in how different dioceses handled the problem. You saw the worst problems by far in Boston, but there are other places where the priest was removed from pastoral responsibilities immediately and not transferred.
But, the bottom line is what did he do about it? I think he did a lot to fix the underlying problems that caused it, not so much to fix the problem that already existed (at least not much visible to us...maybe more in the background).
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Dear Mark, I happen to be a Lutheran who was involved with TWI from 1973-79, and returned to a more sane form of Christianity. Martin Luther
was a Roman Catholic priest who wanted to reform
a few mistakes and would have never left The Holy Church if Vatican 2 and the renunciations
of condemnations(occuting in 1960's and recent October 31,2001) had happened in his lifetime. John Paul II no longer saw him as heretic or
blasphemer. Thomas
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markomalley
Thomas, I understand completely.
I did not say a blasphemer. The word heretic means: "one who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine" -- Martin Luther dissented from several beliefs. Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, and consubstantiation vice transsubstantiation are but a few. But, I was referring to those groups whose beliefs are heterodox as compared to the Magesterium.
Having said that, though, I too am thankful for the negotiations that have been going on between the Lutherans and the Church. There have been tremendous efforts, particularly under JPII, to bring groups back into communion with the Holy See.
(but somehow I think a discussion of the differences between consubstantiation and transsubstantiation would likely bore folks here to death
:D-->)
btw, check this document out for an example:
JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION
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Catcup
It took me several years after leaving TWI to come to the realization that the Catholic church was not totally the "Evil Empire" that TWI made it out to be.
LCM frequently vented regarding the Pope being a seed boy, and all the nuns were just a bunch of spiritual whores. I adopted that attitude myself for decades, and pray God forgives me for my ignorance.
There are good men and bad men just about everywhere you go. You learn to keep the good, and reject the bad. I don't agree doctrinally with many things in the Catholic church, and if you talk to many Catholics, you'll find that a great many of them don't agree with it either, especially regarding the prohibition of admitting women to the priesthood or not allowing priests to marry. But there is a lot of good mixed in with the bad. And J2P2, as LCM used to call him, did more for the human race than that backwards talking/thinking Okie redneck could ever hope to accomplish.
And consider these words:
"People are often unreasonable, illogical and self-centered--
Forgive them anyway.
If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives--
Be kind anyway.
If you are successful, you will win some false friends and some true enemies--
Succeed anyway.
If you are honest and frank, people may cheat you--
Be honest and frank anyway.
What you spend years building, someone could destroy overnight--
Build anyway.
If you find serenity and happiness, they may be jealous--
Be happy anyway.
The good you do today, people will often forget tomorrow--
Do good anyway.
Give the world the best you have, and it may never be enough--
Give the world the best you've got anyway.
You see, in the final analysis, it is between you and God--
It was never between you and them anyway."
Who spoke these words?
The woman whom L. Craig Martindale publicly considered a spiritual slut:
Mother Teresa
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Belle
Amazing that these "spiritual whores" have more respect in the world than any TWIt ever dreamed of having. What's pathetic is that they can't see it.
These ungodly, evil seed people have also lived a much better tupos example of living the Word than TWI ever thought of living.
Catcup, I absolutely love that! Thank you for posting it.
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Trefor Heywood
I long ago came to the conclusion that whatever TWI attacked they were bound to be wrong.
We were taught to judge the fruit and by that alone Martindale stands condemned.
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houseisarockin
Catcup....superb!!!!!
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Second James
I NEVER drempt I'd ever say this, but George Aar...I agree with you & your posting..for once...He looked like a nice old man to me too!
But Hail Mary.......Hail no!!!!!!!!!
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WeWereScammed
...
You see, in the final analysis, it is between you and God--
It was never between you and them anyway."
Who spoke these words?
The woman whom L. Craig Martindale publicly considered a spiritual slut:
Mother Teresa
He thought MT was a slut? ...I'm surprised he wasn't on her like a Texan on a pork chop.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
he called mt a spritual slut? what to f,,,k was he?
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Franko
Mother Theresa was a wonderful person but she was not the author of Anyway. Anyway is a version of "The Paradoxical Commandments" which were written by Kent M. Keith.
http://www.paradoxicalcommandments.com/sightings.html
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socks
He mentions it on his site: http://www.kentmkeith.com/mother_teresa.html
What a wonderful story! I've seen these written somwhere - before, never knew what they actually were. Thanks Franko and catcup!
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