Did you "get" the lines of people who paid their respects to Reagan? Worldwide, the Pope was a much more beloved, respected, well-known, and important figure.
"I'm watching the long lines to see the dead pope from satellite photos.
I don't understand why they're so long."
Because lots of people respected him.
"When I was in Rome, it didn't even occur to me to wanna visit him."
Same here, I have been there many times, during that time period that we lived in Napoli. But it never occured to me that I woudl want to go 'see' him.
Roma Coloseum? yes, Aquaducts? yes. Museums? yes. St. Peters? Yes.
Pope? no.
"It actually scares me, that people are "falling apart" over it."
Yeah but they fell apart over the WTO attacks also.
Seems what you're actually saying is that you don't understand why there is any affection for the man. Now THAT seems odd to me. Was he not the beloved religious leader of millions of people??
Now what I'VE never understood is the thousands of people crying and carrying on during the annual candlelight vigil at Graceland every year.
Suggestion (I mean this in the kindest sort of way - not snide - just passing on what I've found out myself...) :
Learn a little more about him - read some of his works / transcripts and I think you'll appreciate more of who he was and what he was trying to accomplish. For one thing, he was one of the main players in ending communism. It is quite possible that we would still be in the "Cold War" if it was not for him.
I'm watching the long lines to see the dead pope from satellite photos.
I don't understand why they're so long.
Does anyone have any insight for me?
When I was in Rome, it didn't even occur to me to wanna visit him.
It actually scares me, that people are "falling apart" over it.
The man was the spiritual leader of over 1.1 billion people from all over the world. He has visited a higher percentage of those people, through trips to 120 countries during his pontificate, than any other pope in history. He helped to bring together those 1.1 billion people after years of relative chaos.
While firmly re-affirming traditional Catholic teaching, he reached out to non-Catholics and non-Christians in an unprecedented fashion. He has sponsored ecumenical meetings between the Church and Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, etc., with a goal of identifying what common ground exists and provide some kind of a framework for building on common ground and resolving differences. He sponsored an unprecedented prayer meeting for world peace(that was roundly criticized in some Protestant circles btw), where he brought together Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu (not sure if there were others) leaders in the town of Assissi, home of St. Francis. He has visited mosques, churches, shrines, synagogues, etc. Again, unprecedented for a leader of Christianity. To repeat, the purpose was not to compromise on Catholic teaching, but to find common ground.
JPII was uncompromising in his championing of the dignity of human life. Yes, we have all heard about his position against abortion. But, unlike some pro-life leaders, he carried this out through its natural end. He likewise opposed the death penalty and euthanasia. And he believed in the responsibility of communities to care for the young, the poor, the sick, and the disabled, as a result of this belief in the inherent dignity within people. He used the "bully pulpit" not only to preach to his followers, but to consistently call world leaders to account for their actions that offended basic human dignity. And that has made a difference for millions.
"Be not afraid" was the phrase he used to open his papacy and he consistently applied that thought throughout his papacy and, in fact, his life. Others have spoken about his work against communism. He also stood against the Nazis during his youth, even before he was ordained as a priest. He helped raise the Polish nationalist movement throughout the occupation, through participation in literature and in theatre. His seminary studies were done in secret...had the Nazis found out about this seminary's teachers and its students, they would all have been killed. Talk about bravery: of course he was shot in 1981. Just months after that incident, he went to the prison and counseled with and prayed with the man who tried to kill him.
He was loved by the young -- shoot, look at the ages of many who were standing in line for hours and hours -- what should be striking is the age of those in line. He was like a father/grandfather to those people
Bottom line: he was a great man, by any measure. And he was loved by hundreds and hundreds of millions of people. 4 million pilgrims come to pay their respects? If there was a little more notice, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if double that would show.
He has sponsored ecumenical meetings between the Church and Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, etc., with a goal of identifying what common ground exists and provide some kind of a framework for building on common ground and resolving differences. He sponsored an unprecedented prayer meeting for world peace(that was roundly criticized in some Protestant circles btw), where he brought together Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu (not sure if there were others) leaders in the town of Assissi, home of St. Francis.
Pope John Paul II did not believe in, or practice M & A.
Wacky, I see your point. No one should have that kind of religious power. It is unscriptural and in fact idolatrous. The pope could have just as easily used this power for evil as good. Many popes throughout history have in fact used their authority for evil and have used it to persecute God's people often unto death. However, I think what some of the other posters are saying is that for a pope he was actually a good one and did some good things. So with that said let's give him his day or week of recognition just as we would any political leader that has made a contribution to society.
Such a figure is bound to get people who wish to pay their last respects. It happened here with Diana and also the Queen Mother although they were laid in state in coffins and it has happened with some of your presidents.
I went to Arlington to see JFK's grave and it was amazing how many other people were also there. Popes do not have publically accessible burial places, they usually end up in some vault in St Peters so this is basically the only chance people will have to make some kind of physical connection.
I also went to Ground Zero but now it is a building site and inacessible. What hit me powerfully and emotionally was visiting St Phillips the church which actually had mementoes and the story of events and talked of the people, both those who died and those who helped. Also standing in front of one of the fire service stations and seeing the list of names who died that day.
There is a human need to make a connection, it may vary from individual to individual, but I find the crowds in Rome understandable. Many of those doing it will have ignored some things the Pope taught, have disagreed with him on many issues, but they still think him deserving of their respect.
"WF - But would you go to Graceland to see Elvis' gravesite?"
I would not. :-)
"Such a figure is bound to get people who wish to pay their last respects."
If I never paid any 'respects' during their life, then why do I need to pay them something in their death?
"It happened here with Diana and also the Queen Mother although they were laid in state in coffins and it has happened with some of your presidents."
You are correct it did happen, though such an urge does not draw me.
"I went to Arlington to see JFK's grave and it was amazing how many other people were also there."
Good for you, and them.
:-)
"I also went to Ground Zero ..."
I went by it once years ago, was told that it was the World's center of inter-national trade. Okay.
I live 2 hours away, never been back.
" ... What hit me powerfully and emotionally was ...
Can you determine why did this 'hit' you?
Did they die in your arms? Do you have their blood on your clothing? What was your connection to these deaths such that you felt an emotional charge it going there?
"There is a human need to make a connection"
I [respectfully] dis agree.
"they still think him deserving of their respect."
I could see that perhaps more when the man was alive, but not after he has died. It is too late then.
Now what I'VE never understood is the thousands of people crying and carrying on during the annual candlelight vigil at Graceland every year.
BLASPHEMY! COMPLETE AND UTTER BLASPHEMY, I TELL YA!!
:D--> :D--> :D--> :D--> :D-->
Even Paul Simon goes to Graceland:
I'm going to Graceland, Graceland
In Memphis, Tennessee
I'm going to Graceland
Poorboys and pilgrims with families
And we are going to Graceland
In Graceland, in Graceland
I'm going to Graceland
For reasons I cannot explain
There's some part of me wants to see Graceland
And I may be obliged to defend
Every love, every ending
Or maybe there's no obligations now
Maybe I've a reason to believe
We all will be received in Graceland
I'm not all that into going to funerals or visitations for anyone. It's just too much for me to bear and I sure as he11 wouldn't be standing out in the heat for hours upon hours for someone I didn't really know. I do respect the man and I appreciate more and more what he has done. I especially admire that he never forgot or took forgranted where he came from and the atrocities he witnessed first hand. He was never bitter either and did his best to heal hearts whereever and however he could.
Different people show respect in different ways and the Catholic church is notorious for followers who value physical presence and personal experience in many areas - hence pilgrimages to see visions of Mary and such. Different cultures and countries likewise more commonly make major journies to special places. If you weren't raised that way, as I wasn't, it's just not something we would "get" very easily.
Re:Sudo...would you travel to Rome? to pay respects to the pope? I'm shocked that you're shocked..."
Naw.. the Pope meant next to nothing to me, personally, but he was a good man and meant a lot to millions of people. It's not hard at all for me to understand the reaction from the world's Catholics. Did my comments seem snide, Wacky?? I'm sorry :(-->. Didn't mean it that way.
The first Pope I remember was Jphn XXIII and I remember hearing that he was a beloved man too. I did like him, 'though I wasn't Catholic. I liked some of the things he did....but that was a long time ago and I can't remember now.
I think I rember that there was a large crowd when he died...but I don't remember any other Pope's specifically until John Paul so I guess they weren't specifically note worth or news worthy.
I suppose most of the people on the lines are probably Catholic but I think they are showing up for respect for the man he was, not the office he held.
I came back to ammend this post. I just read the Pope's will in the NY Times. I am impressed!
Maybe is was a physchic connection, or just the memories of seeing what happened on TV but it hit me nonetheless. Not everybody will respond the same way perhaps but I for one find it hard not be moved by some things. I know I will feel sad on the 9th of April as it will be the third aniversary of my father's death but it doesn't always have to be a relative or somebody one knew personally.
Perhaps it's a case of John Donne and no man being an island.
The first time I heard of the office of Pope it was when John the 23rd died, and John Paul 1 barely made it out of the starting gate, so the only 2 popes I'm familiar with are Paul the 6th and JP2. I don't recall Paul 6th making any impression on me at all; I rarely heard his name in the news, but JP2 was always referred to in the news. Even LCM respected the clout the guy had. I think it interesting that Paul 6th came to Yankee stadium in '65 and that was IT, but JP2 was a regular visitor to the USA.
I guess LCM would respect the clout that the position of pope entails. The reason being is that the Way denomination and the Roman Catholic church use the same basic hierarchical religious power structure.
Is anyone else watching the 4am happening? Can you understand why I want to?
Naw - I don't think I can get up that early...I'm not in my own home so I don't want to disturb this one. But I did get up early and woke my young daughter early so she could watch the wedding of a century when Dianna was married...it was the "wedding of the century" [sorry if this seems in poor taste due to current happenings...I don't mean it that way].
I would probably watch otherwise.
I can understand it Wacky. It is the closest thing I'll ever get to making history...the watching while somebody else makes history!
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LG
Did you "get" the lines of people who paid their respects to Reagan? Worldwide, the Pope was a much more beloved, respected, well-known, and important figure.
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Galen
Wacky Funster:
"I'm watching the long lines to see the dead pope from satellite photos.
I don't understand why they're so long."
Because lots of people respected him.
"When I was in Rome, it didn't even occur to me to wanna visit him."
Same here, I have been there many times, during that time period that we lived in Napoli. But it never occured to me that I woudl want to go 'see' him.
Roma Coloseum? yes, Aquaducts? yes. Museums? yes. St. Peters? Yes.
Pope? no.
"It actually scares me, that people are "falling apart" over it."
Yeah but they fell apart over the WTO attacks also.
:-)
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Sudo
Wacky,
Seems what you're actually saying is that you don't understand why there is any affection for the man. Now THAT seems odd to me. Was he not the beloved religious leader of millions of people??
Now what I'VE never understood is the thousands of people crying and carrying on during the annual candlelight vigil at Graceland every year.
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ChasUFarley
WF -
Suggestion (I mean this in the kindest sort of way - not snide - just passing on what I've found out myself...) :
Learn a little more about him - read some of his works / transcripts and I think you'll appreciate more of who he was and what he was trying to accomplish. For one thing, he was one of the main players in ending communism. It is quite possible that we would still be in the "Cold War" if it was not for him.
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markomalley
The man was the spiritual leader of over 1.1 billion people from all over the world. He has visited a higher percentage of those people, through trips to 120 countries during his pontificate, than any other pope in history. He helped to bring together those 1.1 billion people after years of relative chaos.
While firmly re-affirming traditional Catholic teaching, he reached out to non-Catholics and non-Christians in an unprecedented fashion. He has sponsored ecumenical meetings between the Church and Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, etc., with a goal of identifying what common ground exists and provide some kind of a framework for building on common ground and resolving differences. He sponsored an unprecedented prayer meeting for world peace(that was roundly criticized in some Protestant circles btw), where he brought together Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu (not sure if there were others) leaders in the town of Assissi, home of St. Francis. He has visited mosques, churches, shrines, synagogues, etc. Again, unprecedented for a leader of Christianity. To repeat, the purpose was not to compromise on Catholic teaching, but to find common ground.
JPII was uncompromising in his championing of the dignity of human life. Yes, we have all heard about his position against abortion. But, unlike some pro-life leaders, he carried this out through its natural end. He likewise opposed the death penalty and euthanasia. And he believed in the responsibility of communities to care for the young, the poor, the sick, and the disabled, as a result of this belief in the inherent dignity within people. He used the "bully pulpit" not only to preach to his followers, but to consistently call world leaders to account for their actions that offended basic human dignity. And that has made a difference for millions.
"Be not afraid" was the phrase he used to open his papacy and he consistently applied that thought throughout his papacy and, in fact, his life. Others have spoken about his work against communism. He also stood against the Nazis during his youth, even before he was ordained as a priest. He helped raise the Polish nationalist movement throughout the occupation, through participation in literature and in theatre. His seminary studies were done in secret...had the Nazis found out about this seminary's teachers and its students, they would all have been killed. Talk about bravery: of course he was shot in 1981. Just months after that incident, he went to the prison and counseled with and prayed with the man who tried to kill him.
He was loved by the young -- shoot, look at the ages of many who were standing in line for hours and hours -- what should be striking is the age of those in line. He was like a father/grandfather to those people
Bottom line: he was a great man, by any measure. And he was loved by hundreds and hundreds of millions of people. 4 million pilgrims come to pay their respects? If there was a little more notice, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if double that would show.
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DaddyHoundog
he had more power over people than 10 presidents and for the most part he was better than any ten put together.
IMNSHO
Lianne
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dmiller
Pope John Paul II did not believe in, or practice M & A.
The long lines are a result of that fact.
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Wacky Funster
Thank you everyone for your insight...I will sleep more soundly tonight fer sure...
Sudo...would you travel to Rome? to pay respects to the pope? I'm shocked that you're shocked that I'm shocked....
Seems like a little much for me, but, I guess to each his own. I just feel I can pay respects to him by prayer in my own home...
I just don't get it.
I understand he was loved...I just don't understand the pilgrimage, I guess.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Wacky, I see your point. No one should have that kind of religious power. It is unscriptural and in fact idolatrous. The pope could have just as easily used this power for evil as good. Many popes throughout history have in fact used their authority for evil and have used it to persecute God's people often unto death. However, I think what some of the other posters are saying is that for a pope he was actually a good one and did some good things. So with that said let's give him his day or week of recognition just as we would any political leader that has made a contribution to society.
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Tom Strange
He was a good man that meant a lot to millions.
We could use more like him. He will be missed.
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dmiller
Yup. I wouldn't stand in line like the other folks, but I will certainly remember him, and all he did.
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Trefor Heywood
There are many reasons why you get the crowds.
Such a figure is bound to get people who wish to pay their last respects. It happened here with Diana and also the Queen Mother although they were laid in state in coffins and it has happened with some of your presidents.
I went to Arlington to see JFK's grave and it was amazing how many other people were also there. Popes do not have publically accessible burial places, they usually end up in some vault in St Peters so this is basically the only chance people will have to make some kind of physical connection.
I also went to Ground Zero but now it is a building site and inacessible. What hit me powerfully and emotionally was visiting St Phillips the church which actually had mementoes and the story of events and talked of the people, both those who died and those who helped. Also standing in front of one of the fire service stations and seeing the list of names who died that day.
There is a human need to make a connection, it may vary from individual to individual, but I find the crowds in Rome understandable. Many of those doing it will have ignored some things the Pope taught, have disagreed with him on many issues, but they still think him deserving of their respect.
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ChasUFarley
WF - But would you go to Graceland to see Elvis' gravesite?
:-)
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Galen
ChasUFarley:
"WF - But would you go to Graceland to see Elvis' gravesite?"
I would not. :-)
"Such a figure is bound to get people who wish to pay their last respects."
If I never paid any 'respects' during their life, then why do I need to pay them something in their death?
"It happened here with Diana and also the Queen Mother although they were laid in state in coffins and it has happened with some of your presidents."
You are correct it did happen, though such an urge does not draw me.
"I went to Arlington to see JFK's grave and it was amazing how many other people were also there."
Good for you, and them.
:-)
"I also went to Ground Zero ..."
I went by it once years ago, was told that it was the World's center of inter-national trade. Okay.
I live 2 hours away, never been back.
" ... What hit me powerfully and emotionally was ...
Can you determine why did this 'hit' you?
Did they die in your arms? Do you have their blood on your clothing? What was your connection to these deaths such that you felt an emotional charge it going there?
"There is a human need to make a connection"
I [respectfully] dis agree.
"they still think him deserving of their respect."
I could see that perhaps more when the man was alive, but not after he has died. It is too late then.
:-)
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Belle
BLASPHEMY! COMPLETE AND UTTER BLASPHEMY, I TELL YA!!
Even Paul Simon goes to Graceland:
I'm going to Graceland, Graceland
In Memphis, Tennessee
I'm going to Graceland
Poorboys and pilgrims with families
And we are going to Graceland
In Graceland, in Graceland
I'm going to Graceland
For reasons I cannot explain
There's some part of me wants to see Graceland
And I may be obliged to defend
Every love, every ending
Or maybe there's no obligations now
Maybe I've a reason to believe
We all will be received in Graceland
I'm not all that into going to funerals or visitations for anyone. It's just too much for me to bear and I sure as he11 wouldn't be standing out in the heat for hours upon hours for someone I didn't really know. I do respect the man and I appreciate more and more what he has done. I especially admire that he never forgot or took forgranted where he came from and the atrocities he witnessed first hand. He was never bitter either and did his best to heal hearts whereever and however he could.
Different people show respect in different ways and the Catholic church is notorious for followers who value physical presence and personal experience in many areas - hence pilgrimages to see visions of Mary and such. Different cultures and countries likewise more commonly make major journies to special places. If you weren't raised that way, as I wasn't, it's just not something we would "get" very easily.
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lindyhopper
Even The Dead Milkmen loved Graceland
Ok continue.
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Sudo
Wacky,
Re:Sudo...would you travel to Rome? to pay respects to the pope? I'm shocked that you're shocked..."
Naw.. the Pope meant next to nothing to me, personally, but he was a good man and meant a lot to millions of people. It's not hard at all for me to understand the reaction from the world's Catholics. Did my comments seem snide, Wacky?? I'm sorry
:(-->. Didn't mean it that way.
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krys
The first Pope I remember was Jphn XXIII and I remember hearing that he was a beloved man too. I did like him, 'though I wasn't Catholic. I liked some of the things he did....but that was a long time ago and I can't remember now.
I think I rember that there was a large crowd when he died...but I don't remember any other Pope's specifically until John Paul so I guess they weren't specifically note worth or news worthy.
I suppose most of the people on the lines are probably Catholic but I think they are showing up for respect for the man he was, not the office he held.
I came back to ammend this post. I just read the Pope's will in the NY Times. I am impressed!
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Trefor Heywood
Perhaps I am more sensitive than you Galen.
Maybe is was a physchic connection, or just the memories of seeing what happened on TV but it hit me nonetheless. Not everybody will respond the same way perhaps but I for one find it hard not be moved by some things. I know I will feel sad on the 9th of April as it will be the third aniversary of my father's death but it doesn't always have to be a relative or somebody one knew personally.
Perhaps it's a case of John Donne and no man being an island.
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johniam
The first time I heard of the office of Pope it was when John the 23rd died, and John Paul 1 barely made it out of the starting gate, so the only 2 popes I'm familiar with are Paul the 6th and JP2. I don't recall Paul 6th making any impression on me at all; I rarely heard his name in the news, but JP2 was always referred to in the news. Even LCM respected the clout the guy had. I think it interesting that Paul 6th came to Yankee stadium in '65 and that was IT, but JP2 was a regular visitor to the USA.
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Mark Sanguinetti
I guess LCM would respect the clout that the position of pope entails. The reason being is that the Way denomination and the Roman Catholic church use the same basic hierarchical religious power structure.
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Wacky Funster
Just a tad snide, sudo...but, no worries...
;)-->
When I asked a friend today she said: "people are going because it's a happening".
That made sense to me...
I'm gonna get up at 4am to watch the funeral on tv, because, I think that that's a "happening" I can acknowledge for my respect for him.
I just wouldn't hop to Rome...
Thanks again everyone...
Is anyone else watching the 4am happening? Can you understand why I want to? hehehheheeh
;)-->
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krys
Naw - I don't think I can get up that early...I'm not in my own home so I don't want to disturb this one. But I did get up early and woke my young daughter early so she could watch the wedding of a century when Dianna was married...it was the "wedding of the century" [sorry if this seems in poor taste due to current happenings...I don't mean it that way].
I would probably watch otherwise.
I can understand it Wacky. It is the closest thing I'll ever get to making history...the watching while somebody else makes history!
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oenophile
Abraham Lincoln
Winston Churchill
Mohandas Ghandhi
Martin Luther King
Pope John Paul II
Our world is much better off because they lived.
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