Ok my thoughts: Where did this figure come from? With the exception of PFAL and the Advanced Class I never spent this much on any class most were $30.00 or so. Just for fun I pulled the class fact sheet from the Limb of Kansas this one was a update from Jan 1985.
PFAL $40.00 (I paid 65.00 but the materials were different than here.
Intermediate Class $50.00
Our Spiritual Contest $20.00
Christian Family and Sex $30.00
Rise and Expansion $30.00
Renewed Mind $30.00
Witnessing and Undersheperding $20.00
The Way Tree $30.00
Dealing with the Adv. was replaced but it was $30.00 also.
I have instructed all of these classes several times and this is consistant with the class fees.
I heard Wierwille say more than once that he charged for the class so that the person taking it would be committed to attending every seesion on time to get their money's worth...the charge for the class was acually a "benefit" to the new student. ;)-->
What he failed to mention was that if he didn't charge money for the class, he would have to go out and find a real job...
I agree with Socks 100%...The heart of a minister should be to freely give. The ministry of reconciliation has nothing to do with money.
TWI never said you needed to pay for the class to offset the expense of putting it on. COuld have got in trouble that way since it cost nothing to run. Free labor and an already paid for film/tape. any cost after that was negligible.
TWI charged becuase without that $100.00 investmnet 90% of the students wouldn't have shown up after the second three hour session on those "stringed" metal torture chambers they called seats. And those departing wouldn't have recommended it either.
The 100 wasn't for books because you had to buy those separate
NO the 100 was because the product wasn't that great and that was the only way to insure revenue.
Out of my class of twelve (newbies) maybe 4 were still with TWI after 18 months. Not a very good return for somthing that was supposed to be the greatest thing since the 1st century
Dove, there's a thread on here somewhere about the varying costs of the PFAL class. $100 is pretty much the standard and has been for as long as I was involved (since early 1990's).
Theological Seminaries are preparing people for a career and they have to pay for salaried professors, benefits for those professors, buildings, maintenance, supplies, power bills, etc. It makes sense to charge for those classes. Ditto regarding college and career enhancement seminars and classes.
What is the purpose of a class given by a church or TWI? It's supposedly to benefit the life of the student and to bring them closer to God and a better relationship with Jesus, right? It's a way the church "gives BACK" to its parishoners.
MOST churches either don't charge, charge ONLY the cost of supplies or have a free will offering AFTER the class. This way ANYONE with a heart to learn is able to attend. It fosters "free will" giving....giving without compulsion and giving from the heart not from obligation. What a concept!!
What is the cost to TWI?
- Donated house for class location
- Donated set-up supplies
- Donated toilet paper
- Donated electric bill
- Donated TV (required to be a certain size)
- Donated VCR
- Donated snacks
- Donated Teachers
- Donated Class Crew
- A few sheets of paper
- A plastic notebook
- A couple a books
*shrug* Doesn't sound like $100 per person cost to TWI. Sounds like a profit making venture. Just like the Advanced Class Spay-shul....didn't craig say out loud that it was a revenue generating event once?
If TWI really wanted to save lives and if they really wanted the Word over the world, they would make it free and easy for people to take the class and then people would give out of the goodness of their heart based on the immense improvement of quality, Abundance and Power in their lives from having taken the class. That'll never happen because they KNOW most people don't see the promises made to them come to pass.
I agree with one of my favorite artists, Mary Chapin Carpenter on this one:
quote:
I sat alone in the dark one night, tuning in by remote
I found a preacher who spoke of the light but there was brimstone in his throat
He'd show me the way according to him in return for my personal check
I flipped my channel back to cnn and I lit another cigarette
I take my chances, forgiveness doesn't come with a debt
I take my chances, I take my chances every chance I get
I've crossed lines of words and wire and both have cut me deep
I've been frozen out and i've been on fire and the tears are mine to weep
now I can cry until i laugh and laugh until I cry
so cut the deck right in half, I'll play from either side
Theological Seminaries are preparing people for a career and they have to pay for salaried professors, benefits for those professors, buildings, maintenance, supplies, power bills, etc. It makes sense to charge for those classes. Ditto regarding college and career enhancement seminars and classes.
Good points Belle..
I think that is one reason I didn't mind paying again, and again, and again, at least at one time..
The ministry had at least some semblance of these things.. there were root locations, training, music productions, larger meetings.. and I believe a lot of folks actually came out of it with at least a little of something to show..
But even that slowly changed.
Now the best they have to offer is some new light on why beastiality isn't such a great idea.. good grief. Couldn't PAY me to sit through that kind of stuff again..
ONce a year here in Alaska Mormon-land we have a day long genealogical seminar, Various classes (you get to pick and Choose)
It's all day so you get 6 1 hour sessions plus and hour for lunch. These are in depth sessions on one topic, some of the teachers, recognized as specialist in a field, come from the lower 48.
The visitors are housed at a members home free of charge. The session itself is held at one of the stake centers in the gym/multipurpose room, the charge for this???
last year it was $18.00
If you wnated to have lunch there it was an additional $4.00.
The 18 covered the cost of printing the syllabus, an inch and a half thick with all the key points from all the classes.
the $4.00 covered the paper cups plates etc. The lunch is a buffet with everyone bringing something--home cooked-soup to nuts-all you can eat.
But it does say a workman is worthy of his reward.
Well, oldies, if you're going to use that in Wierwille's defense, then you ought to bring up the reward he STOLE from the workmen he plagiarized (stole from).
A fraud and a thief is worthy of his reward, too. In Wierwille's case, scorn is only part of his deserved reward.
Seems to me that WE were the workman n I damn sure never saw any of that reward....... after the first time, I was at every class ahead of time vaccuming, cleaning the bathrooms, preparing refreshments....
Many times it was held at my house, I supplied the furniture, provided the tv and vcr...paid the utilities, furnished the tp ...
. . . maybe he should have split the money 20 different or so ways and distributed it to all the people of God he learned from.
Instead he kept it all for himself, selfish man that he was. -->
You bet he was selfish. And that was the least of his shortcomings. Pretty minor compared to the other sins he was capable of.
According to your own reasoning, yes, Wierwille should have split it up twenty ways, or forty ways, or however many ways, from the people whose work he freely "borrowed." You did just say a workman is worthy of his reward, did you not? Those men whose work Wierwille stole also put time and effort and money into their own projects and ministries.
You did just say a workman is worthy of his reward, did you not? Those men whose work Wierwille stole also put time and effort and money into their own projects and ministries.
Hi Laleo,
This is the way I see it.
If people back then thought they were being stolen from and it was as big an issue for them as it is for you, they should have sued for damages.
The fact that there were no lawsuits (or perhaps I should say, none that I know of) about VP so-called plagiarism and who supposed to get the money, says something to me.
It says that these people who VP learned from didn't think it was as big a deal as you or others make of it in this day and time.
I know that answer probably will not satisfy you, but heck, when you're mad, you put your money where your mouth is and take legal action and if it really was "stealing" then it should have been dealt with the authorities.
Oldiesman: Is a workman worthy of his reward or is he not? Rhetorical question. No need to answer it, I'm just wondering if you recognize that you made the claim, then curiously changed the rules when it comes to Wierwille.
If the Bible says a workman is worthy of his reward, and Wierwille believed the Bible, then I don't think it would have been asking too much for him to have the integrity to apply that to his own sources of income, and, like you said, give the workman his reward. He didn't.
quote:
I'd believe he wanted to move the Word and to that end he needed money to do it.
No program offered by The Way ever cost them money; in fact, all the ones I know about operated at a profit. Classes and seminars. Weekend "advances." Heartbeat festivals. The Rock of Ages. Corps. WOW. Even Twigs. All at a profit. All of it, with the exception of some of the Headquarters staff.
What was the cost of "moving the Word"? And who paid it? Can it even be measured by money?
Dove, there's a thread on here somewhere about the varying costs of the PFAL class. $100 is pretty much the standard and has been for as long as I was involved (since early 1990's).
Can't speak for the 90s Belle but I know it has varied over the years as well as the contents that came with it. But as I said excluding PFAL and the Advanced class the average per class would be $30.00. The prices I posted were from the class instructers info from the Limb of Kansas and are consistant with the cost I received from each student in the classes I ran from my time in the Way 1973-1988. they were not $100.00 per class.
We do classes sometimes in our fellowship today my preferance is to offer them for no charge. Sometimes we take an offering at the end sometimes not. Either way it is paid for from the fellowship money. If people want to give then we can do another seminar. If not then thats ok too. If there are books that go with the class we sell them through the bookstore if you want the books ok if not take your own notes.
I paid 100 bucks when I took the class in '74. My ex told me he paid 200 when he took it in 1980. Over the 20 years I was in TWI, I saw the price vary from 40 to 200 bucks for PFAL. The Advanced was 500 I think when I was pressured to take it, which I didn't. If I couldn't hardly afford to feed my kids, I wasn't about to pay all that money for a class.
Knowhere that I know of in the Bible does it say to charge money for the word.
But it does say a workman is worthy of his reward.
I forget what verse but I think it's in more than one place.
VP and others spent lots of wood and time working on the class, so it should come as no surprise that there would be a one time nominal fee."
I can understand paying some money for books etc. But I reiterate (SP?) that I can find no verse that says to charge money for the gospel. But, I do find verses that seem to indicate not to charge money for God's Word;
Acts 8:20
"Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money!"
2 Cor 2:17
"Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God."
2 Cor 11:7
"Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge?"
1 Cor 9:18
"What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make use of my rights in preaching it."
1 Tim 6:10
"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs."
All verses are quoted from the NIV version of the Bible.
Jesus Christ never charged money, Paul & the other disciples never charged money for the Word.
As mentioned by Bliss when asking a church official about charging for classes they were surprised and asked why!
I don't have a problem with secular organizations charging for classes, it's their livelyhood, but to charge for the gospel imo is wrong based on my understanding of the Bible.
A workman is worthy of his reward, I can understand that, but I don't believe it's talking about preaching the gospel.
If Wierwille offered pfal for free, as I believe he should have, I also believe folks would have given money freely as a gift.
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WhiteDove
Ok my thoughts: Where did this figure come from? With the exception of PFAL and the Advanced Class I never spent this much on any class most were $30.00 or so. Just for fun I pulled the class fact sheet from the Limb of Kansas this one was a update from Jan 1985.
PFAL $40.00 (I paid 65.00 but the materials were different than here.
Intermediate Class $50.00
Our Spiritual Contest $20.00
Christian Family and Sex $30.00
Rise and Expansion $30.00
Renewed Mind $30.00
Witnessing and Undersheperding $20.00
The Way Tree $30.00
Dealing with the Adv. was replaced but it was $30.00 also.
I have instructed all of these classes several times and this is consistant with the class fees.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I heard Wierwille say more than once that he charged for the class so that the person taking it would be committed to attending every seesion on time to get their money's worth...the charge for the class was acually a "benefit" to the new student.
;)-->
What he failed to mention was that if he didn't charge money for the class, he would have to go out and find a real job...
I agree with Socks 100%...The heart of a minister should be to freely give. The ministry of reconciliation has nothing to do with money.
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templelady
Grocho hit the mark--
TWI never said you needed to pay for the class to offset the expense of putting it on. COuld have got in trouble that way since it cost nothing to run. Free labor and an already paid for film/tape. any cost after that was negligible.
TWI charged becuase without that $100.00 investmnet 90% of the students wouldn't have shown up after the second three hour session on those "stringed" metal torture chambers they called seats. And those departing wouldn't have recommended it either.
The 100 wasn't for books because you had to buy those separate
NO the 100 was because the product wasn't that great and that was the only way to insure revenue.
Out of my class of twelve (newbies) maybe 4 were still with TWI after 18 months. Not a very good return for somthing that was supposed to be the greatest thing since the 1st century
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Trefor Heywood
We got the books included in the UK for our £25 *donation*...
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Belle
Dove, there's a thread on here somewhere about the varying costs of the PFAL class. $100 is pretty much the standard and has been for as long as I was involved (since early 1990's).
Theological Seminaries are preparing people for a career and they have to pay for salaried professors, benefits for those professors, buildings, maintenance, supplies, power bills, etc. It makes sense to charge for those classes. Ditto regarding college and career enhancement seminars and classes.
What is the purpose of a class given by a church or TWI? It's supposedly to benefit the life of the student and to bring them closer to God and a better relationship with Jesus, right? It's a way the church "gives BACK" to its parishoners.
MOST churches either don't charge, charge ONLY the cost of supplies or have a free will offering AFTER the class. This way ANYONE with a heart to learn is able to attend. It fosters "free will" giving....giving without compulsion and giving from the heart not from obligation. What a concept!!
What is the cost to TWI?
- Donated house for class location
- Donated set-up supplies
- Donated toilet paper
- Donated electric bill
- Donated TV (required to be a certain size)
- Donated VCR
- Donated snacks
- Donated Teachers
- Donated Class Crew
- A few sheets of paper
- A plastic notebook
- A couple a books
*shrug* Doesn't sound like $100 per person cost to TWI. Sounds like a profit making venture. Just like the Advanced Class Spay-shul....didn't craig say out loud that it was a revenue generating event once?
If TWI really wanted to save lives and if they really wanted the Word over the world, they would make it free and easy for people to take the class and then people would give out of the goodness of their heart based on the immense improvement of quality, Abundance and Power in their lives from having taken the class. That'll never happen because they KNOW most people don't see the promises made to them come to pass.
I agree with one of my favorite artists, Mary Chapin Carpenter on this one:
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Ham
Good points Belle..
I think that is one reason I didn't mind paying again, and again, and again, at least at one time..
The ministry had at least some semblance of these things.. there were root locations, training, music productions, larger meetings.. and I believe a lot of folks actually came out of it with at least a little of something to show..
But even that slowly changed.
Now the best they have to offer is some new light on why beastiality isn't such a great idea.. good grief. Couldn't PAY me to sit through that kind of stuff again..
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templelady
ONce a year here in Alaska Mormon-land we have a day long genealogical seminar, Various classes (you get to pick and Choose)
It's all day so you get 6 1 hour sessions plus and hour for lunch. These are in depth sessions on one topic, some of the teachers, recognized as specialist in a field, come from the lower 48.
The visitors are housed at a members home free of charge. The session itself is held at one of the stake centers in the gym/multipurpose room, the charge for this???
last year it was $18.00
If you wnated to have lunch there it was an additional $4.00.
The 18 covered the cost of printing the syllabus, an inch and a half thick with all the key points from all the classes.
the $4.00 covered the paper cups plates etc. The lunch is a buffet with everyone bringing something--home cooked-soup to nuts-all you can eat.
Now that is how you run a class
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oldiesman
PFAL was a bargain...
For example, if you took PFAL 10 times, that's $10 a class.
I do believe that $100 was plenty, even though I think it was worth much much more.
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oldiesman
I forget what verse but I think it's in more than one place.
VP and others spent lots of wood and time working on the class, so it should come as no surprise that there would be a one time nominal fee.
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LG
A fraud and a thief is worthy of his reward, too. In Wierwille's case, scorn is only part of his deserved reward.
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oldiesman
Yeah Long Gone maybe he should have split the money 20 different or so ways and distributed it to all the people of God he learned from.
Instead he kept it all for himself, selfish man that he was.
-->
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rascal
Seems to me that WE were the workman n I damn sure never saw any of that reward....... after the first time, I was at every class ahead of time vaccuming, cleaning the bathrooms, preparing refreshments....
Many times it was held at my house, I supplied the furniture, provided the tv and vcr...paid the utilities, furnished the tp ...
Alla my reward went back to vp....
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laleo
You bet he was selfish. And that was the least of his shortcomings. Pretty minor compared to the other sins he was capable of.
According to your own reasoning, yes, Wierwille should have split it up twenty ways, or forty ways, or however many ways, from the people whose work he freely "borrowed." You did just say a workman is worthy of his reward, did you not? Those men whose work Wierwille stole also put time and effort and money into their own projects and ministries.
So why the sarcasm?
-->
Give credit (and money) where it is due.
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bliss
Socks "what am I an escort service for Jesus!"
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHAAA
Now, that just summed it up for me thanks!
Oldies- I get your point, but, if you look at motives, it was all wrong. I just shared with
a pastor at a church today this very issue.
They invited me to take a new class at the church,(they run about 20 at a time, sunday school). I said "is there a fee?"
She actually was taken aback, and choked on her drink and said "a fee, what for? we are non -profit, we don't charge people to learn about God!"
Then I shared my story................
she never finished her drink......
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oldiesman
This is the way I see it.
If people back then thought they were being stolen from and it was as big an issue for them as it is for you, they should have sued for damages.
The fact that there were no lawsuits (or perhaps I should say, none that I know of) about VP so-called plagiarism and who supposed to get the money, says something to me.
It says that these people who VP learned from didn't think it was as big a deal as you or others make of it in this day and time.
I know that answer probably will not satisfy you, but heck, when you're mad, you put your money where your mouth is and take legal action and if it really was "stealing" then it should have been dealt with the authorities.
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oldiesman
I'd believe he wanted to move the Word and to that end he needed money to do it.
But I'm not God, God is the searcher of hearts and looks on the heart and motives.
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bliss
Right, God is the Searcher of hearts,
and as such if HE sought out people to hear HIS Word,(via the class)
but yet, they couldn't pay for it, and ended up that they did not take the class (we never offered money to folks),
then, I guess God's searching for nothing?
People were willing to pay because the product seemed good, but to compare God to a product, just boils me blood!
Your right, Oldies, I don't know his motives, I just look at the fruit.
Everyone has an answer for that one.
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laleo
Oldiesman: Is a workman worthy of his reward or is he not? Rhetorical question. No need to answer it, I'm just wondering if you recognize that you made the claim, then curiously changed the rules when it comes to Wierwille.
If the Bible says a workman is worthy of his reward, and Wierwille believed the Bible, then I don't think it would have been asking too much for him to have the integrity to apply that to his own sources of income, and, like you said, give the workman his reward. He didn't.
No program offered by The Way ever cost them money; in fact, all the ones I know about operated at a profit. Classes and seminars. Weekend "advances." Heartbeat festivals. The Rock of Ages. Corps. WOW. Even Twigs. All at a profit. All of it, with the exception of some of the Headquarters staff.
What was the cost of "moving the Word"? And who paid it? Can it even be measured by money?
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
sure i took pile advanced pile and every thing in between
just like you
should there have been a cost
sure there should have
the materials cost money
but not as much money as we paid
they ripped us off
i go to a [sp] syposium once a year at a stellar destination hotel not far from where i live
it is a day long thing
coffee and danish in the am same thing for a mid am break
a wonderful lunch buffet with 3 or 4 ice carvings[ya i know ya can't eat ice but veery nice never the less]
they have 5 instructors
all famous chefs from all over the world
it is truly awesome if you are into culinary arts
cost 15 bucks sylibus included and you get credits to keep your degree updated
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WhiteDove
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BikerBabe
I paid 100 bucks when I took the class in '74. My ex told me he paid 200 when he took it in 1980. Over the 20 years I was in TWI, I saw the price vary from 40 to 200 bucks for PFAL. The Advanced was 500 I think when I was pressured to take it, which I didn't. If I couldn't hardly afford to feed my kids, I wasn't about to pay all that money for a class.
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Outin88!
Oldies said;
"quote:
Knowhere that I know of in the Bible does it say to charge money for the word.
But it does say a workman is worthy of his reward.
I forget what verse but I think it's in more than one place.
VP and others spent lots of wood and time working on the class, so it should come as no surprise that there would be a one time nominal fee."
I can understand paying some money for books etc. But I reiterate (SP?) that I can find no verse that says to charge money for the gospel. But, I do find verses that seem to indicate not to charge money for God's Word;
Acts 8:20
"Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money!"
2 Cor 2:17
"Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God."
2 Cor 11:7
"Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge?"
1 Cor 9:18
"What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make use of my rights in preaching it."
1 Tim 6:10
"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs."
All verses are quoted from the NIV version of the Bible.
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Outin88!
Jesus Christ never charged money, Paul & the other disciples never charged money for the Word.
As mentioned by Bliss when asking a church official about charging for classes they were surprised and asked why!
I don't have a problem with secular organizations charging for classes, it's their livelyhood, but to charge for the gospel imo is wrong based on my understanding of the Bible.
A workman is worthy of his reward, I can understand that, but I don't believe it's talking about preaching the gospel.
If Wierwille offered pfal for free, as I believe he should have, I also believe folks would have given money freely as a gift.
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