If you're a Christian you won't believe this!

[My3Cents]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1798944,00.html

I was right. You don't believe it do you?

[WordWolf]

I believe someone wrote this article.

As for the supposition this "study" used, it's ridiculous.

There's no "control group", and no isolation of variables.

It basically says

A) Britain has a healthier society than the US.

B) The only real differences between Britain and the US are religious beliefs.

C) Therefore US' religious beliefs are the sole reason the US' society isn't as healthy as Britain.

Let's suppose A) is true for the sake of discussion.

(Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But let's get to the real objections.)

B) is silly. For starters, we know there are more shootings per capita in the US over Britain.

Is it reasonable to presume this means that Britons have lousy aim?

No, duh. There are more HANDGUNS per capita in the US over Britain.

No one's allowed to own a handgun. Period.

"The police don't have a gun, and you don't have a gun.

So the police say 'Stop, or I'll say 'stop' again.'" (Robin Williams.)

(Yes, there are a kind of SWAT team with guns, but they have to be called in, they're elite units.)

However, this article seems to say that the higher per capita shootings are due to belief in a god.

Supposedly, the ONLY differences are religious.

Do I believe that societies lacking religion are necessarily 'sick' societies? No.

The odds may or may not be a bit better.

A healthy society has a clear system of order, a healthy economy (eliminating the need for street crime

to survive) and clear rules, along with a respect for the law and clear punishment for lawbreaking.

A belief in a higher power who orders such respect for the law can make this easier,

imposing a reason to respect the law.

On the other hand, it's also another tool that some people can use to seize power in a society.

(We've all seen that one...)

So, I hardly think the answer is as cut-and-dried as they made it out to be.

[GarthP2000]

It sure debunks the theory that 'godless' people are less moral, that's for sure.

B)

[mstar1]

In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

“The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so.”

Why wouldn't I believe it? I live in this country and see its dysfunctions also --they are no secret---religious blinders and ofttimes skewed and selective perceptions keep many from not only not recognizing and admitting problems (denial) but also can severely hinder dealing with problems in an effective manner due to the denial combined with the separated and many time superior attitudes regarding the rest of society

I would be interesting to see the study methods and a fuller set of results if you (or someone) has it.

[def59]

China is a godless society and they are faced with forced sterilization, forced-labor camps and a lousy environment.

The USSR had a high rate of promiscuity — and abortions.

Cuba imprisons dissidents.

America is suffering from a loss of its moral footings because its believers have rejected their first love. We've always had problems and we always will. No one is perfect.

[dmiller]

Am wondering how the Moslem countries would rate in this *report*?

Or (perhaps) only christianity is under scrutiny here.

Hmmmmmmm.

[Jim]

This reminds me of a study that concluded that "Lack of Pirates cause Global Warming"

There's way more to a country's social behavior than it's predominate religion.

[GeorgeStGeorge]

I think I can prove that the increase in promiscuity, etc., can be shown to be caused by an increase in the number of people who confuse correlations with cause/effect relationships.

George

[krys]

I think I can prove that the increase in promiscuity, etc. is due to the increase in the size of the population at large.

[Stayed Too Long]

The study compared only countries which are democracies:

"............in the prosperous democracies."

"............of the developing democracies."

"............the US was the world’s only prosperous democracy......."

"The non-religious, proevolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator."

The conclusion of the study is:

.....when the US was compared with other countries, including France, Japan and the Scandinavian countries. These nations had been the most successful in reducing murder rates, early mortality, sexually transmitted diseases and abortion........

I don't think anyone can argue with the conclusion. Whether God had anything to do with it or not is up for argument.

Edited September 28, 2005 by Stayed Too Long

[oilfieldmedic]

Well, simple -minded me as usual thinks...

"I am just passing through anyway"...what do you expect from the world?

We have simply been on a slippery-slope as a society for quite a while.

Like I said, K-I-S-S

Ok, have a good one...I am off to work in beatuiful-downtown Baghdad

[Plotinus]

(how do u follow a sign-off like that?!)

3-cents,

I suggest 2 alternate titles for that article:

a.) "Religion - It's What's For Dimmer."

b.) "Hail Fredonia"

I don't doubt the veracity of the researcher's facts or conclusions.

No, I don't

- sad sad to say,

- sad sad to say

However,

I am convinced

that, if all religious believers

and godless hamburger meat natural mans

(sic and sic)

of good will

were to adopt the exact beliefs that I espouse,

and partially adopt,

that we would see The New Jerusalem

descend from heaven

like a bride

prepared for her bridegroom.

(sexy sacred sociological simile)

Oh what a day of rejoicing that would be...

for me.

Edited September 28, 2005 by Plotinus

[Allan]

Well..after Australia just announcing its' new anti-terrorism laws, the head of the 'Islamic Friends of Australia'

here has warned that because of this new erosion of peoples rights Australia will be a 'Fascist' state by 2016 !!

[Galen]

No, duh. There are more HANDGUNS per capita in the US over Britain.

No one's allowed to own a handgun. Period.

"The police don't have a gun, and you don't have a gun.

So the police say 'Stop, or I'll say 'stop' again.'" (Robin Williams.)

(Yes, there are a kind of SWAT team with guns, but they have to be called in, they're elite units.)

When I lived in Scotland, I attended gun shows and even bought a few (pistols, shotguns, and single-shot rifles). We had to file paperwork with the loacl constabulary, but it was not difficult. Traveling through customs took more effort. The bobbys did not 'carry' but they had a locker back in their Police Station where they would have to go before they could be issued their firearms. I was told that not ALL bobbys were qualified to use firearms, it took an additional level of training.

I had some inter-action with the MOD as well. They ran rubber Zodiacs around into each lock and bay, patroling the waters. Underneath their seat was a locked cabinet with firearms. They had to radio-in to get permission to un-lock their cabinet and access their firearms.

We often visited a local game-warden, at his home. He carried a shotgun everytime he left his house.

It did seem that the masses of the population were united in their ideal that firearms were not allowed to the masses.