19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
BTW, you can get the online version of the NIV Bible here;
I wonder if they believed any thing they were teaching. I think it was a buisness and all the bad things that happened to people was for their enjoyment. It also seems they did not care who they hurt.
JustLoafing, I have often wondered the same thing. It seems to me that if they really did believe what they were teaching that they would be scared sh1tless about having to explain to God why they have done the things they've done and destroyed the lives they've destroyed. They don't seem to care.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
We KNOW vee pee, craig and many other leadership have these on their record.
I believe they worshipped themselves and the Bible, but others would disagree with that.
Hatred - We were taught to hate anyone who rejected TWI, left TWI or belonged to another church. Heck, at one time craig had us practically hating Jesus and especially any song to or about him.
Discord - they are pros at this - among families, married couples, among other religions....
Fits of rage - "God won't spit in your direction!" How many first hand accounts of vee pee and craiggers going off on tirades here? Too many to count.
There's so much more here and so many examples of their lives reflecting all of these "acts of the sinful nature" - even the most worshipful vee pee apologist has to admit to this unless they are just fooling themselves.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.
25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
Patience, Kindness and Goodness are things one would be hard pressed to find in any TWI leadership in the upper echelon.
They LOVE the upper seats! They LOVE the adoration! They LOVE having servants, but I don't think those are things meant by these verses.
They are faithful to ruining marriages and lives. Faithful to spying out the liberties in Christ that their follwers have, but again, I don't think that's what these verses are talking about.
Hmmmmm, seems pretty clear to me which "fruit" we were exposed to.....
Thank you SO much out in 88....I really preciate that........I will book mark that for future reference.
Oldies go right ahead and ignore/make excuses why the very last line is unimportant. That won`t excuse that scriptures say this is a big hairy deal in spite of what wierwille believed and taught.
Those who live like this (and we KNOW that they did) will NOT inherit the kingdom of God :(
I think that his fruit identifies him as a counterfit Christian.....I am afraid that adherance to his formulas could possibly condemn us to a lifetime of struggle, never truly understanding what it is to walk by the spirit....you know....because we think we KNOW everything.
I only know that I have witnessed people manifesting the fruit of the spirit.....they are different on the inside....I think that being a Christian could involve more than reciting some verses and slapping a lable on ourselves...
I further think that vpw and lcm are examples of ever seeking but never coming to a knowledge of the truth.
That makes me even sadder than if they were just knowingly indulging in evil.
b35 For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you took care of Me; I was in prison and you visited Me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or without clothes and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and visit You?' 40 "And the King will answer them, 'I assure you: Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.'
---------------
Ok....So we have two groups of people here expecting access into heaven.........
41 Then He will also say to those on the left, 'Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels! 42 For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger and you didn't take Me in; I was naked and you didn't clothe Me, sick and in prison and you didn't take care of Me.' 44 "Then they too will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or without clothes, or sick, or in prison, and not help You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, 'I assure you: Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me either.' 46 "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Whatever you did not do for the least of these......you did not do for me either.
That sounds pretty condemning to me.
Which catagory does the ministry fall into? Which catagory do we personally fall into?
This would seem to indicate that there is more to being a christian than the formula we were taught.....otherwise why are those other guys up there to begin with?
Wordwolf.... that is why I am doubting that our knowledge of scriptures as we were taught in twi as being in and of itself enough to help us to become genuine Chritians...
I just know that there is a difference....most christians I know do not have a problem with the fruit of the flesh that we did in twi.
I don`t know any group who`s leaders were as indulgent of their sin natures as ours.
Bingo, Oldies! you finally stumbled on to the truth, with maybe the exception of Walter Cummins, this was most certainly true, and maybe a few others, but most were arrogant sob's.
This in reference to an earlier post, not the more recent ones .
You have someone who professes Christ but acts like a royal sob destroying lives taking that which wasn`t his...ignoring every instruction given to us biblically.....and then you have someone who demonstrates peace longsuffering meekness...etc but is of a different faith... exemplifies *love God and Love your neighbor*
Which one is behaving more Christ like? Which one is following the instructions in the scriptures?
I`ll trust fruit over lables ANY day.
I think that both have to learn and teach things from each other, we can teach them the Word and how to born again and/or how to manifest power from on high and they can teach us how to be nice and tender. :D
What is the ministry? It's an organization with policies and principles. It's not just the "people." If it were up to the "people," PFAL would have been free.
TWI's policy and principles and actions as a corporate unit were devoid of love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness...
I can't say that about individuals within TWI. I didn't know them all. I can say that LCM exhibited a profound lack of many of those qualities. But I can't say that about everyone. But regarding the ministry as a corporate unit, it was lacking in every single one of the fruit of the spirit.
You HIT it! We all have something to teach and something to learn. When I was in the corps, they taught that you could learn something from vaccumming and therefore, I had that expectation - to learn - from a simple task such as that. Did I learn? Sure, because I expected to learn. Sometimes people get so high up and so full of themselves that they forget that they can learn from the people they are teaching. Like raising a child. I learn from my boy, he teaches me all kinds of things even though he doesn't speak a whole lot yet. He teaches me tenderness, patience, kindness and the big understanding that people don't learn and grow overnight. They learn very slowly.
Sometimes people in leadership are more forgetful, than forgiving. The expectation that a 9 month old can drive a car, stay out of trouble and leap tall buildings in a single bound is unrealistic. Just like pushing people from the Foundational Class to the Advanced Class or even pushing them INTO the foundational class - sure there is a lot of good learning in it but just because carrots have a bunch of vitamins, that doesn't mean I'm going to stuff them down a 3 month old's mouth. Everyone is on a different track with God and I just loved your post because if we could always be more understanding, then we would be less violating on other people's lives.
Very few people have power that I haven't given them. I once had a boss who told me that if I didn't do this certain thing (which was highly unethical but not illegal) that I would get in trouble and probably even fired, I told that person that although I understood their reasoning for asking me to do it, I believed it to be wrong and not in the best interest of the company. I told that person that my life and reputation would outlive the time I spent working for that company and for that reason, I told them that I would rather quit the job than do what they were asking - if they truly decided to ask me to do it. He thought about it and said he was just suggesting it and not asking me to do it SO he didn't ask and I didn't quit.
I've been told to handle my people a certain way and refused because I wouldn't take the blame for a decision that was not right and was not mine. I left the WC because of a bad decision that everyone was jumping on board with because the MOG sat excathedra and vocalized it from God. It was wrong. I knew it was wrong. Even VeePee would've told old LCM to take a long walk off a short pier but the decision was made and everybody who didn't want to quit or get fired kept their mouths shut. Not me, I had the same thinking then that I do now. I'm not going to stand accountable for someone else's half brained idea that binds the lovers of God and belittles them. No f#!ng way.
So yes, The Way seems to forever be struggling because sometimes leadership people deem sane human logic to be old man nature and put it on a back burner. I am IN TWI to make it stronger and better. I cannot change the group but I can effect the people I am around in a positive and beneficial way. There are many, many good and wonderful people still in. I think many of us are all working toward changing the legacy of the way toward something more positive.
Lizzy, please consider....and I mean this in the kindest way.....but please just consider for one minite that your wonderfull love and integrety are what people around you will see when introduced to twi. Your presence adds legitimacy to an organization that once people are out of your sphere of influence, stand a damned good chance pf being deeply hurt by a leader with less kindeness and principles that you yourself live by.\
I have no doubt that God can bless us in whatever place we chose to take root....as is evidenced by the variety of beliefs of the posters here. If one can read their thoughts without bias....you can generally find pearls of wisodm.
However your presence is how the evil ones are able to masquerade as a spiritually healthy organization :(
Your leaders are still in place ...the very same ones that facillitated and covered for the most heinous of offenses...it is a matter of public court record. ..... they are still there and as of yet have not repented...and still in charge of your ministry....
Your character and presence disarms peoples suspicions ..... The evil that still abides in the top leadership ranks is still in a position to harm the people that you have so lovingly nurtured.
The evil hides and lurks behind your integrety.
I feel you, like we once were....are the disguise that hides the snare from view....you and the spripture you offer, the love you manifest are the bait in the trap of the hunter.
In vain is the snare set in sight of the prey.....
Very good rascal. Like I have said before if we knew how rotten the roots were of twi. Probably not one of us would have joined if we had known upfront. It was good hearted people (us peons) that thought they were doing God's will and believed in their hearts that the top guys at twi were Godly people.
That is understandable, since a Corporation cannot have holy spirit...
(As far as I know) :P
P.S. If anyone knows of any corporate entity in the world that has the holy spirit...please let me know, I'd like to join. :D
What it shows is that the people running the corporation were not being led by the spirit when they made decisions for the corporation. They were acting according to the flesh and displayed the works thereof.
I don't believe for a minute that VP "couldn't stop his behavior" - that would imply trying to stop. Sexual deviancy coupled with massive arrogance and a system that leaves both unchecked and even legitimized is certainly not some poor soul who messed up & struggled to get help. Oh no, it was purposeful, planned, secretive, calculated behavior over a long period of time.
Also, I do not believe that VP or LCM were "seeking" & never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. A seeking heart is a humble heart. What they sought was justification to continue what they had already chosen to do. If I had to sum up TWI's legacy in a nutshell, & this is just my opinion, it would be "betrayal of the many by the arrogant few". Which makes them not too different than most politicians; I just expect a higher standard from those who call themselves leaders of God's people.
As for whether these leaders are born again Christians or not, well, I'm not even going to go there. None of us are perfect, & none of us knows what is between that person and God. So I won't speculate on their status as Christians. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. I'd rather be around loving people than people who can reel off verses in that mechanical way that discourages true intimate fellowship.
I think a lot of the debate that goes on here is due to feelings of anger that are the result of the betrayal. It's hard to deal with all that anger; what does one do with it? Scream into a pillow? Drink? Argue with those who defend the betrayers? All of the above, and more? And then, having to learn to trust again, if indeed that can be done. Some will find that easier to do than others, of course. TWI did not originate my trust issues, but they finished it.
I don't believe for a minute that VP "couldn't stop his behavior" - that would imply trying to stop. Sexual deviancy coupled with massive arrogance and a system that leaves both unchecked and even legitimized is certainly not some poor soul who messed up & struggled to get help. Oh no, it was purposeful, planned, secretive, calculated behavior over a long period of time.
Also, I do not believe that VP or LCM were "seeking" & never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. A seeking heart is a humble heart. What they sought was justification to continue what they had already chosen to do. If I had to sum up TWI's legacy in a nutshell, & this is just my opinion, it would be "betrayal of the many by the arrogant few". Which makes them not too different than most politicians; I just expect a higher standard from those who call themselves leaders of God's people.
Thanks.
We've been saying that.
If ALL of us would agree on this, posting traffic on the GSC would reduce by 50% overnight.
Personally, I think that everything you said has been well-documented and is currently a
matter of public record. However, there are those who-somehow-disagree.
What it shows is that the people running the corporation were not being led by the spirit when they made decisions for the corporation. They were acting according to the flesh and displayed the works thereof.
At times they were, at times they were not.
I suppose one may argue that the way to identify whether a twi corporate decision was a godly spiritual one, as opposed to a carnal one, was what kind of fruit it produced.
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Outin88.
Here ya go Rascal;
Galatians 5:19-25 (NIV)
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
BTW, you can get the online version of the NIV Bible here;
http://www.ibs.org/niv/
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Belle
We KNOW vee pee, craig and many other leadership have these on their record.
I believe they worshipped themselves and the Bible, but others would disagree with that.
Hatred - We were taught to hate anyone who rejected TWI, left TWI or belonged to another church. Heck, at one time craig had us practically hating Jesus and especially any song to or about him.
Discord - they are pros at this - among families, married couples, among other religions....
Fits of rage - "God won't spit in your direction!" How many first hand accounts of vee pee and craiggers going off on tirades here? Too many to count.
There's so much more here and so many examples of their lives reflecting all of these "acts of the sinful nature" - even the most worshipful vee pee apologist has to admit to this unless they are just fooling themselves.
Patience, Kindness and Goodness are things one would be hard pressed to find in any TWI leadership in the upper echelon.
They LOVE the upper seats! They LOVE the adoration! They LOVE having servants, but I don't think those are things meant by these verses.
They are faithful to ruining marriages and lives. Faithful to spying out the liberties in Christ that their follwers have, but again, I don't think that's what these verses are talking about.
Hmmmmm, seems pretty clear to me which "fruit" we were exposed to.....
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oldiesman
I think all of us, if we are honest, have some of these things on our record.
If you don't, praise God.
The question is, do we live like this?
When these acts of the sinful nature manifest themselves, do we ask God to forgive us?
If mankind was perfect, mankind wouldn't need a Savior to save us from our sinful natures.
That includes you me VP LCM and everyone else. We all have sinful natures.
God saw that, that we mankind needed help that is why his Son paid the price...
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rascal
Thank you SO much out in 88....I really preciate that........I will book mark that for future reference.
Oldies go right ahead and ignore/make excuses why the very last line is unimportant. That won`t excuse that scriptures say this is a big hairy deal in spite of what wierwille believed and taught.
Those who live like this (and we KNOW that they did) will NOT inherit the kingdom of God :(
I think that his fruit identifies him as a counterfit Christian.....I am afraid that adherance to his formulas could possibly condemn us to a lifetime of struggle, never truly understanding what it is to walk by the spirit....you know....because we think we KNOW everything.
I only know that I have witnessed people manifesting the fruit of the spirit.....they are different on the inside....I think that being a Christian could involve more than reciting some verses and slapping a lable on ourselves...
I further think that vpw and lcm are examples of ever seeking but never coming to a knowledge of the truth.
That makes me even sadder than if they were just knowingly indulging in evil.
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WordWolf
Luke 10:25-37(NKJV)
"And behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tested him, saying
'Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?'
He said unto him, 'What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?'
So he answered and said, 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart,
with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and
'your neighbor as yourself'.
And he said to him, 'You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.'
But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, 'And who is my neighbor?'
Then Jesus answered and said:
'A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves,
who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him
half dead. Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw
him, he passed by on the other side. Likewise a Levite, when he arrived
at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side.
But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw
him, he had compassion. So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on
oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took
care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave
them to the innkeeper, and said to him, 'take care of him; and whatever more
you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.'
So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the
thieves?'
And he said, 'He who showed mercy on him.'
Then Jesus said to him, 'Go and do likewise.'"
==========
Now then,
two men who were EXPERTS in God's Word,
who new its contents VERY well,
or this schlub, from a despised group,
who DID well and may have known few verses accurately?
Who would I be more like?
Who would JESUS bid me be more like?
(These were HIS examples, remember.)
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oldiesman
Rascal I have a few questions.
Have you considered the following verse recently:
When we consider this verse, then folks who manifested the acts of the sinful nature, who also confess their sins to God, are forgiven.
Or do you suppose that having these acts of the sinful nature on one's record is enough to condemn them forever?
***************************
What is a counterfeit Christian?
You either have Christ in you, or you do not.
Are you referring to a carnal Christian?
***************************
By the way, please take a good look at that list of the acts of the sinful nature, in Galatians.
Ever guilty of any of them yourself?
I am...
I believe none of us are so pure that we can do without our Saviour...
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Raf
Can't speak for every leader, obviously. But the ministry itself?
Love? Their love is a counterfeit: they call it agape, but it's got more filet-o than a McDonald's franchise.
Joy? They chased joy out in favor of an artificial happiness.
Peace? Not really.
Longsuffering? That means patience, hardly a TWI attribute.
Kindness? Again, hardly an attribute of the organization. Some people, yes, but not the organization.
Goodness? Umm, no.
Gentleness? Give me a break.
Self-control? Others-control, maybe, but not self-control.
So, yeah, the ministry either does not have or does not manifest the fruit of the spirit.
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oldiesman
What is the ministry?
Isn't it the people that associates with it?
Like the word church...the church is the called out...the assembly of people.
So saying there is no fruit in "the ministry" under that definition must mean that all the people involved with it bear no fruit of the spirit.
Do you really believe that?
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rascal
In mathew......25
b35 For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you took care of Me; I was in prison and you visited Me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or without clothes and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and visit You?' 40 "And the King will answer them, 'I assure you: Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.'
---------------
Ok....So we have two groups of people here expecting access into heaven.........
41 Then He will also say to those on the left, 'Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels! 42 For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger and you didn't take Me in; I was naked and you didn't clothe Me, sick and in prison and you didn't take care of Me.' 44 "Then they too will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or without clothes, or sick, or in prison, and not help You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, 'I assure you: Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me either.' 46 "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Whatever you did not do for the least of these......you did not do for me either.
That sounds pretty condemning to me.
Which catagory does the ministry fall into? Which catagory do we personally fall into?
This would seem to indicate that there is more to being a christian than the formula we were taught.....otherwise why are those other guys up there to begin with?
--------------------------------------------------------------
Raf, those are very good points.....
Wordwolf.... that is why I am doubting that our knowledge of scriptures as we were taught in twi as being in and of itself enough to help us to become genuine Chritians...
I just know that there is a difference....most christians I know do not have a problem with the fruit of the flesh that we did in twi.
I don`t know any group who`s leaders were as indulgent of their sin natures as ours.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
P.s. LOOKIE what I did !!!! I cut n paste for the first time!!!!!! :)
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
i don't think the way produced much fruit at the leadership level
but they did a great job producing nuts
ya plant a nut tree and ya get nuts and maybe even go nuts
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Bingo, Oldies! you finally stumbled on to the truth, with maybe the exception of Walter Cummins, this was most certainly true, and maybe a few others, but most were arrogant sob's.
This in reference to an earlier post, not the more recent ones .
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themex
I think that both have to learn and teach things from each other, we can teach them the Word and how to born again and/or how to manifest power from on high and they can teach us how to be nice and tender. :D
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Raf
Oldies,
What is the ministry? It's an organization with policies and principles. It's not just the "people." If it were up to the "people," PFAL would have been free.
TWI's policy and principles and actions as a corporate unit were devoid of love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness...
I can't say that about individuals within TWI. I didn't know them all. I can say that LCM exhibited a profound lack of many of those qualities. But I can't say that about everyone. But regarding the ministry as a corporate unit, it was lacking in every single one of the fruit of the spirit.
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oldiesman
That is understandable, since a Corporation cannot have holy spirit...
(As far as I know) :P
P.S. If anyone knows of any corporate entity in the world that has the holy spirit...please let me know, I'd like to join. :D
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Thin Lizzy
Themex,
You HIT it! We all have something to teach and something to learn. When I was in the corps, they taught that you could learn something from vaccumming and therefore, I had that expectation - to learn - from a simple task such as that. Did I learn? Sure, because I expected to learn. Sometimes people get so high up and so full of themselves that they forget that they can learn from the people they are teaching. Like raising a child. I learn from my boy, he teaches me all kinds of things even though he doesn't speak a whole lot yet. He teaches me tenderness, patience, kindness and the big understanding that people don't learn and grow overnight. They learn very slowly.
Sometimes people in leadership are more forgetful, than forgiving. The expectation that a 9 month old can drive a car, stay out of trouble and leap tall buildings in a single bound is unrealistic. Just like pushing people from the Foundational Class to the Advanced Class or even pushing them INTO the foundational class - sure there is a lot of good learning in it but just because carrots have a bunch of vitamins, that doesn't mean I'm going to stuff them down a 3 month old's mouth. Everyone is on a different track with God and I just loved your post because if we could always be more understanding, then we would be less violating on other people's lives.
Very few people have power that I haven't given them. I once had a boss who told me that if I didn't do this certain thing (which was highly unethical but not illegal) that I would get in trouble and probably even fired, I told that person that although I understood their reasoning for asking me to do it, I believed it to be wrong and not in the best interest of the company. I told that person that my life and reputation would outlive the time I spent working for that company and for that reason, I told them that I would rather quit the job than do what they were asking - if they truly decided to ask me to do it. He thought about it and said he was just suggesting it and not asking me to do it SO he didn't ask and I didn't quit.
I've been told to handle my people a certain way and refused because I wouldn't take the blame for a decision that was not right and was not mine. I left the WC because of a bad decision that everyone was jumping on board with because the MOG sat excathedra and vocalized it from God. It was wrong. I knew it was wrong. Even VeePee would've told old LCM to take a long walk off a short pier but the decision was made and everybody who didn't want to quit or get fired kept their mouths shut. Not me, I had the same thinking then that I do now. I'm not going to stand accountable for someone else's half brained idea that binds the lovers of God and belittles them. No f#!ng way.
So yes, The Way seems to forever be struggling because sometimes leadership people deem sane human logic to be old man nature and put it on a back burner. I am IN TWI to make it stronger and better. I cannot change the group but I can effect the people I am around in a positive and beneficial way. There are many, many good and wonderful people still in. I think many of us are all working toward changing the legacy of the way toward something more positive.
Thin Lizzy
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rascal
Lizzy, please consider....and I mean this in the kindest way.....but please just consider for one minite that your wonderfull love and integrety are what people around you will see when introduced to twi. Your presence adds legitimacy to an organization that once people are out of your sphere of influence, stand a damned good chance pf being deeply hurt by a leader with less kindeness and principles that you yourself live by.\
I have no doubt that God can bless us in whatever place we chose to take root....as is evidenced by the variety of beliefs of the posters here. If one can read their thoughts without bias....you can generally find pearls of wisodm.
However your presence is how the evil ones are able to masquerade as a spiritually healthy organization :(
Your leaders are still in place ...the very same ones that facillitated and covered for the most heinous of offenses...it is a matter of public court record. ..... they are still there and as of yet have not repented...and still in charge of your ministry....
Your character and presence disarms peoples suspicions ..... The evil that still abides in the top leadership ranks is still in a position to harm the people that you have so lovingly nurtured.
The evil hides and lurks behind your integrety.
I feel you, like we once were....are the disguise that hides the snare from view....you and the spripture you offer, the love you manifest are the bait in the trap of the hunter.
In vain is the snare set in sight of the prey.....
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justloafing
Very good rascal. Like I have said before if we knew how rotten the roots were of twi. Probably not one of us would have joined if we had known upfront. It was good hearted people (us peons) that thought they were doing God's will and believed in their hearts that the top guys at twi were Godly people.
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Raf
What it shows is that the people running the corporation were not being led by the spirit when they made decisions for the corporation. They were acting according to the flesh and displayed the works thereof.
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Free Soul
Just my two cents worth....
I don't believe for a minute that VP "couldn't stop his behavior" - that would imply trying to stop. Sexual deviancy coupled with massive arrogance and a system that leaves both unchecked and even legitimized is certainly not some poor soul who messed up & struggled to get help. Oh no, it was purposeful, planned, secretive, calculated behavior over a long period of time.
Also, I do not believe that VP or LCM were "seeking" & never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. A seeking heart is a humble heart. What they sought was justification to continue what they had already chosen to do. If I had to sum up TWI's legacy in a nutshell, & this is just my opinion, it would be "betrayal of the many by the arrogant few". Which makes them not too different than most politicians; I just expect a higher standard from those who call themselves leaders of God's people.
As for whether these leaders are born again Christians or not, well, I'm not even going to go there. None of us are perfect, & none of us knows what is between that person and God. So I won't speculate on their status as Christians. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. I'd rather be around loving people than people who can reel off verses in that mechanical way that discourages true intimate fellowship.
I think a lot of the debate that goes on here is due to feelings of anger that are the result of the betrayal. It's hard to deal with all that anger; what does one do with it? Scream into a pillow? Drink? Argue with those who defend the betrayers? All of the above, and more? And then, having to learn to trust again, if indeed that can be done. Some will find that easier to do than others, of course. TWI did not originate my trust issues, but they finished it.
That's all.
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dmiller
David
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WordWolf
Thanks.
We've been saying that.
If ALL of us would agree on this, posting traffic on the GSC would reduce by 50% overnight.
Personally, I think that everything you said has been well-documented and is currently a
matter of public record. However, there are those who-somehow-disagree.
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oldiesman
At times they were, at times they were not.
I suppose one may argue that the way to identify whether a twi corporate decision was a godly spiritual one, as opposed to a carnal one, was what kind of fruit it produced.
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