You're right OM we did beg people like you to pay for it.
That was another requirement of the program. Even people who could afford to pay for the program on their own were encouraged to get sponsorship.
I remember getting so low that I was on a day-to- day basis. I finally got to stay because one ex-corps buddy had had his entire year paid for but wat booted out befor his final year was up. He allowed his unused funds to be transfered to my account. The remaining balance was tiny, and my first Twig leader paid for that(while she was in res.)
So we were yelled at, worked hard, deprived sleep (in some instances - THAT story is on my Devine Design thread,) and made to be beggars.
Om you should be just as angry about it all as we get 'cause not only were you asked (or harassed,probably A LOT) to sponsor, your hard-earned money went into a program that had only questionable results regarding "spiritual leadership and training." All this, and leadership kept telling all you guys that sponsorship had to be above and beyond your ABS.
I really like it when y'all share these things about your training and experiences. Thanks for taking the time to type them up for us. :)
Socks, you definitely have a way with words and I'd gladly buy your book to help you make billiions. Maybe it'll get you a sturdier soapbox.
ex10, your description of your first years "on the field" and the hamster wheel you found yourself running on is exactly how I felt. It started with one or two things and snowballed into never having any time for a life outside of doing TWIt things.
We got married and came back from our honeymoon to move the very next day. THEN, we were still trying to settle in to our new home together BUT Moneyhands was having a limb meeting over an hour away. We didn't have any money to stay in a hotel nearby and really didn't have the time, energy or desire to go since we were newlyweds. BUT we were told it was the most spiritual event of the year in our area and it was spiritually vital for our lives that we be there.
Being the good little wayfers that we were, we shuttled back and forth dog tired and it wasn't anything significant. I was peeved. THEN we were asked to be HFC assistants, then we had meetings 3x/week, HFC meetings 1x/week, witnessing 1x/week and prayer partners every day in addition to all the paperwork and reports on all these activities we had to do. We tried for TWO YEARS to step down as assistants, but my ex always caved when they would say "but we REALLY need you" or there was some "spiritual crisis" they needed us to handle.
There just wasn't any time to think, breathe or sleep. On top of this I was living in "Sleeping with the Enemy" and had to keep the house white glove test clean 24/7. It's a wonder I didn't have a nervous breakdown in the midst of all that. I WAS having panic attacks and trouble breathing. Our HFC and Dootie Moneyhands recognized it as stress, but didn't offer any help, suggestions or concern, afterall, I was still jumping through their hoops..... Shoulda been a clue....
Om you should be just as angry about it all as we get 'cause not only were you asked (or harassed,probably A LOT) to sponsor, your hard-earned money went into a program that had only questionable results regarding "spiritual leadership and training." All this, and leadership kept telling all you guys that sponsorship had to be above and beyond your ABS.
Doojable, I'm not angry at all. I was happy to help out when I could.
Of course, sometimes I said "no", like the time someone I really didn't like that much asked me to sponsor him.
It went something like this:
"can you sponsor me"?
"well I'm already sponsoring two other people"
"can you sponsor a third"? :(
That is bold, but also selfish. I'm glad I didn't.
Yeah, I was skating on thin ice the whole way through. And, yeah, Oldies, I probably would have begged you.
I mean, jeez....took PFAL at age 16, worked minimum wage jobs while finishing high school, commited to serve at various in-state programs, went WOW thrice, which required part-time, low paying jobs, and then spent whatever I had saved on getting back and forth to Ohio every year.
And, everybody I knew had already gone into the Corps, was planning on going into the Corps, or had gone or were going WOW, which meant part time low paying work.
I only knew one or two who could chip in, and they were already sponsoring others. If I had the nerve (which I didn't) would have approached perfect strangers and hoped they had a heart to help.
It was pointed out to me that I was worthless because I could not keep up the sponsorship, and therefore had no right to be in the Corps. (This did not come from Craig, BTW). Because of that and some other things that were said, I left. Sure didn't want to stay where I wasn't wanted. What a waste! Four years down the drain..my heart's desire smashed out of me...because one person decided it was their turn to be cruel. With no family, and few friends in a position to help, I had still managed to make it 'till just two or three months from graduating.
Sorry, guys.....this one hurts. I really would have been proud to have graduated with my Corps: even today it would have meant something. After everything that had happened, it would have been the proudest day of my life.
Well, Oldies, I guess you wouldn't have liked me....
And, they assumed we were idiots or something. Like the gun training thing, it took about five hours of waiting around before I held a shotgun and fired two shots............TWO SHOTS. I never had the heart to tell those "shooting range guys" that I had been pheasant hunting and rabbit hunting since I was old enough to carry a gun!! Twenty-guage shotgun, twelve-guage shotgun, .22 caliber rifle, bow & arrow, ........... been around, done that.
Come on Skyrider, lighten up. I was raised to shoot and hunt also. Firearm safety was drilled into me at a young age. But really, I remember certain Europeans who literally "jumped out of their skins" when they watched and then heard the sound of a bolt action being racked an locked down at the front of the classroom. And when it came to shooting the "dreaded mule kicking 12 gage" at the range, I remember one poor Irish guy literally shaking as he was handed the shotgun. Complete and total fear some of these people had, and the experience for them was very valuable. And then you said; "been around, done that".
Well, good for you! But it certainly wasn't everybody, or even half of everybody. What I did as the time approached to do some minimal shooting, was to talk with my Irish friend, and help him to allay his fears as he shakily raised that shotgun up. Yet you say; "And, they assumed we were idiots or something. Like the gun training thing",
Look "They" didn't "assume we were idiots", They simply supplied the Kansas Safe Hunters course for us. And, if you are a hunter, and have been around firearms, you will know, brother, that there really are some very careless and ignorant people out there when it comes to firearms. Not that they are "evil stupid", but just flat out ignorant. When I was WOW in Los Angeles, my two WOW sistahs went to dinner with these two guys they were witnessing to. They went to the guys's apartment where the guys made them spaghetti. Then the guys gave them wine, and they all got fairly loaded-yeah, you know what they wanted. And then this guy gets out his 30.06 (high powered rifle for those of you who may not know), and passes it around. As my one WOW sistah holds the rifle, she "jokingly" points it at the other three and says "Freeze dirtbags!" One of the guys, knowing that the rifle was loaded, reaches out, pushes the barrel towards the ceiling, just as the sumbit*h goes off!
Yeah, there was the deafening roar of a 30.06 in a small apartment, which also put a hole in the ceiling which could have killed one to two innocent people in the apartments above. When the story was relayed to me, I was aghast! Needless to say, I grilled them on gun safety! And so, when I was in the in residence training program in the Corps, I was glad to see such a practicle course made available to us. The knowledge and practicle experience was not for we who "already knew", but for those who didn't. And certainly it could have been more extensive when it came to the time on the shooting range, but at least it whet their whistles, and help allay some needless fears.
Look folks, you may believe that you were ripped off by The Way, and that years of your life were totally wasted. And maybe it is easy because of the bitterness to "pick apart" every little thing and supply a "bandwagon" for others to jump on with you, but, come on. In The Way Corps training, the Hunter Safety course was not supplied because "they assumed we were idiots". It was supplied because many many people are entirely unknowledgeable about the safe handling of firearms, and the course just may well have given some individual just enough practical knowledge and experience that could have saved some one's life down the road. Certainly there were injustices done, but let's not invent injustices just for the sake of griping. Certainly that four years of our lives could have been used doing something else. But at the very least, the Hunter Safety course was a major thrill for my Irish friend (after the time on the range), and later, at Gunnison, I took him shooting up in the hills behind the water tank, and I was glad that he'd had the safety factor drilled into his head. And believe me, for him, walking the sage brush in the American West with a .22 looking for jack rabbits was such a thrill! (I carried the .12 gage ). But at the end of the "hunt" it was only "empty pop bottles was all we did kill".
...It was pointed out to me that I was worthless because I could not keep up the sponsorship, and therefore had no right to be in the Corps. (This did not come from Craig, BTW). Because of that and some other things that were said, I left. Sure didn't want to stay where I wasn't wanted. What a waste! Four years down the drain..my heart's desire smashed out of me...because one person decided it was their turn to be cruel. With no family, and few friends in a position to help, I had still managed to make it 'till just two or three months from graduating.
Sorry, guys.....this one hurts. I really would have been proud to have graduated with my Corps: even today it would have meant something. After everything that had happened, it would have been the proudest day of my life.
but everybody's experience was different. It's good to respect that, IMHO.
Ex10, that is exactly why I posted what I posted.
How much training does it take to remember the basics on
"how not to accidentally shoot people"?
Easy to say as an American who may well also have grown up around firearms. But to so many of these Europeans, and to many of our city dwelling Countrymen and women, the only owners of guns are terrorists and criminals.
So, Shorty, is it really your view that it is the "lifetime" part of the commitment that is the problem or is it perhaps the degree of submition and control over the one who commits that twi requires.
In a marriage there are deal breakers...conditions in the contract so to speak. Do you feel there are situations where breaking the corps commitment becomes valid and what are they? Is the fact that the corps contract (is there one?) is so vague make your commitment unbreakable or should the vagueness be grounds for an easy exit if one feels mislead or misinformed? I would think the answer to the later is a simple yes.
The Way Corps commitment is hard to relate exactly to any other commitment. I said marriage because that is the only other lifetime commitment I could think of. Sure there are deal breakers - but some people will feel justified for divorce more easily than others. The high divorce rate today is in some way a testament to the difficulty had in finding solutions and the easy in identifying "deal breakers". Some people eventually reach a very blissful state of marriage because they stuck with it. Others have stayed in marriages for many years to their own hurt, perhaps "sticking with it" in hopes that it would eventually get better if they just stayed committed. I think you could look at the Corps commitment in both ways depending on individual experience.
The other thing the Corps is loosely related to is the real "Corps" namely the U.S. Marines. The highly trained special mission force ready to fight the enemy at any time, through any hardship. The marines are total BA's and deserve much respect for their commitment and discipline. Arguably though, very few maintain this level of service and "readiness for war", if you will, for LIFE. I think the Way Corps could learn from this fact. Perhaps the Way Corps do serve a "tour of duty" after training 5 to 10 years - go anywhere, do anything, no questions asked. Stay highly mobile, debt free -all that. But after that, ease back a bit - settle in, raise a family, run a fellowship, have a secular carreer. In the marines (and the military in general) you also have those who make a carreer of it. There's your clergy to go back to the ministering example. Carreer ministers should be ordained and make it their life's work.
The Way Corps is somewhere in between. Not ministers by profession, but also not fully engaged in secular life. In ecclesiastical terms this is sometimes called being a "bi-vocational" minister or pastor, and is common today in small non-denomenational churches. (Indeed there is some basis for this in the book of Acts.) It gives you the benefit of relating more to the congregation - you have a job and family and face the same challenges they do - but it also engenders the conflict of trying to do two fulltime jobs well. Serving two masters, if you will. Most people can't do it for the long term, they either go one way or the other.
Then of course there's the angle of a levitical preisthood which draws from the Old Testament, or as referenced by Mark O'Mally earlier, the religious orders or casts we see in the Catholic church (and other religions as well). The Corps concept is not derivative of any one of these ideas entirely, and is thus in the view of some, vague and poorly defined.
So to answer the question, "lifetime" is not necessarily a problem, nor is "commitment." But someone should take a hard look at what EXACTLY is being committed to and for HOW LONG.
Uh oh. Looks like I was posting as you were posting EX10. And thanks. :). And, I appreciate your rundown of your time as branch coordinators in KS. Reminds me of my first two years of marriage in Alaska. My wife and I with new baby were expected to drive to Anchorage three hours away every weekend for "leaders meetings". I was the twig area coordinator of five twigs on the Kenai Peninsula. And that drive was over snowy mountain passes to boot, at least in the winter. And we never dropped less than $100.00 plus of our won money each time we went there. Yeah, that's like four hundred plus a month, and no TWI credit card to pay the costs.
Also, I remember that the LC had a big leaders meeting on the opening day of Moose Season the first year of hi LC-ship. And it was funny, the local Alaskans were like "f___ you! We hunt for meat! We ain't comin!" And, they didn't show. But dutifully, I and my wife and baby drove to Anchortown anyway, where we listened to the LC rant over the lack of love for God just because people "liked to hunt." But ya know, since I had recently been ordained, I took the opportunity to take offense at what he said and point out that he was out of touch with reality, having just come from Kansas as the LC there, and that Alaskans work very hard and many hunt annually to fill their freezers, and that just maybe, in the name of "Word in Culture" he could have scheduled the first big leaders meeting of the year at a different time. This brought many nods of agreement from the few present who did come, and caused him to shut up for the moment. But I did get reamed later in private, but I still enjoyed my "peer level advantage" and disagreed with him to his face, which really pi ssed him off.
And to think that I passed up on an enormous bull on my drive to Anchorage with my rifle in the truck! I could have bagged him, told the LC, "sorry, I can't make it, got lots of cuttin and wrappin to do!" But, I quelled my "selfish desires", and drove on, and Bullwinkle got to live to see another day. Well, at least it turned out good for old Bullwinkle on that :) day... :)
I think bottom line, one of the big reasons TWI failed so dramatically was that the "needs of the ministry," were always put before individuals. People were expendable. Many of us never got the chance to really develop as "leaders" because we had to fit the precut mold that somebody else fabricated for us.
If we attempted to set healthy boundaries, and be honest and realistic about our own individual part in the bigger scheme of things, we got alot of grief.
I think a big part of "leadership" is helping bring out the best in others. You know, helping somebody discover their own unique "talent" and then helping them develop that.
In TWI, the emphasis was so much on meetings, teachings, classes and keeping that momentum rolling, that there was little room to grow in other aspects of "ministry."
It was a very narrow box that we had to squeeze ourselves into. No wonder so many relationships fell apart. Not just marriages only. I mean look what TWI has morphed into.....
I have said before and I will repeat that for the most part my time in TWi was OK..same with my time in thecorps.
Its only as I look back and think about things tht they just don't jive. I never had the "hamster on the wheel" effect - no - P@t L^nn just looked me straight in the eye and told me she didnt' think I was much of a leader. Then I looked her straight in the eye and told her she was wrong.
I had a LOT of good times - but those times centered around the people I met and not the things I did or the things I learned - though there was some things I learned.
So, I don't mean to get on any bandwagon - or start one - but thanks for your input. Your opinion counts.
Johnny, I appreciate what you are saying, but everybody's experience was different. It's good to respect that, IMHO.
I agree. Along that line, I think some people who presumably are describing their own experiences, but instead write, this happened to us, or that we were deceived and/or given the shaft, are trying to make their line apply to all.
And WW, sorry, I thought you meant otherwise. But, yea-ah! I could hardly believe my ears when the story of my WOW sis pointing that loaded rifle at everyone was relayed to me. But, that's the point, people have and will continue to act with incredible stupidity when it comes to firearms! The stories abound, and sadly will continue to do so. In fact, with a number of Corps brothers and sistahs' I did my usual " .22 caliber exhibtion", just to show how deadly even a .22 can be. Like with my Irish friend, I took an empty coke can, filled it with water, and then at a decent distance had him shoot it and watch as the whole can literally exploded, with water a flyin', demonstrating the effect of "hydroshock" from even a little old .22 caliber rifle or handgun. As you may know, our bodies are a high percentage of water. Education is the key, and so this is why I thought that aspect of Corps training was worthwhile, as you may well agree...
The Red Dragon said that to you Dooj? What a bee-otch! And good for you for sticking up for yourself like that! You went girl!
I hereby give you my old, solid gold, engraved soapbox with the velvet cushion to be yours now and forever for use here at the cafe so you may expound in style and comfort
I read in your post you would experience "grief" if you didnt comply with what the way asked you to do as volunteers in the way corps.
I read it , and I saw it plenty.. for many years and as the years went on it just got worse and worse for them. with the added "grief " fo losing so many friends and often family members along the way who choose to leave the orgainzation.
I saw so many many go into the way coprs and drop out and again some several times for the same reason or new and improved ones, yet they always could go back and try again come up with some more money and put themselfes through it all over again.
many many single moms went through family corps here.
so they got the "grief" you spoke of but they were NOT asked to leave the way.
so you went through the way corps and got "grief". Why? WHY? did you not just say 'EXcuse me time for me to do this carry on with my own dreams and life and take some down time on your volunteer job time.
I know corps who did not just go where they were assigned they went where they wanted to be close to family memebers I know corps who divorced corps and married clergy I had seen it all. it was a who is who game as I said.
so it was done. alot at least in the eighties, in the ninties it was a horse of a different color and those poor poor souls had a beating for sure.
whydid you personaly do it EVEN when you knew it was wrong for you?
o the grief the grief the way corps took being leaders in the way beat all , so being "active" was no picnic either.
it was your choice? why did you chose to endure? the whole time just wishing it would change for you?
I didnt understand why they took the abuse then and /or why they stayed nor do I now.
One note : tho if it about you changing your ideals about what twi was that is different you changed your belief system and now see things differently than then. that is a clear cut answer YOU changed your mind.
like those who bought the whole body mind and spirit routine and having abortions and now claiming to be pro-life.. twi was never pro-life they still are not, in that case a person feels more enlightened or educated about the situation and makes a different choice. twi never changed or did any double talk on that . i
NOT that ! not the things you feel twi did wrong and have changed your mind about.. you liked twi you chose to go into the corps , it was not making your day , why did you stay?
you say your full of regret, and you had felt that way while still doing things you didnt want to do with your life, but the fear of this "grief" made you stay.
it sounds like you were unhappy living the manner you were living but unable to make the choice to live another manner and reach for your dreams out of fear of what the others thought of you.
is that the case?
I know peopel stayed to keep their marriages together etc. which is pathetic but a personal choice to be made by the individual. but you have the answer Im looking for , please do share.
If you didnt like the direction your life was going why did you feel unable to change it? and if you couldnt who could? twi permisssion or approval was needed by you to move forward to serve God and His people?
I do not get that never will.
I think twi chose twi over individuals as I said before but why would individuals chose twi over their own selff?
that I never understood. still do not. care to educate me?
I truly believe the way corps I was with and around and hung with cared about people. I believe they loved god with their whole heart and soul.. and they thought they were doing a good thing.
yes they did get beat up alot and I often believed it was uncalled for.. but I am not was not "corps" so who was I to say what they should have or not have put up with in life.
As I never made that choice.
the choice was theirs. many were miserable that was so clear in the 90's , and I got more confused on why they would allow their life to turn into such unhappiness and often wreckage because twi said they had to.
the corps I knew KNEW twi and that it had problems many had been in many many years and seen many leave to never come back , they knew the bad and still felt it was worth it.
I think some stayed to try to change things the best they could, that went around for a few years.
but it didnt work.
why in hell would a person compromise their own dreams and the family to do it?
the whole time I just kept telling them God loves you more than twi ever will or could. God wants you happy. that is what I believe to this day.
I never felt way corps where "more powerful" or more loved by God, or even clergy for that matter. I know God is no respector of people or what they do and loves us all the same.
was the mighty rewards? never bought into that side show either.
I thought I made myself pretty clear. But just in case, the answer is:
I was young, naive, and wanted to make a difference in people's lives.
Husband and I had no idea what we were in for, and how long it would last. We believed in "the ministry."
We don't regret what we did, or the lifelong friends we made, and the pretty hysterical and fond memories we have of wild times. But truth be told, hindsight is 20/20 and knowing what I know now, um, 24 years later, I/we would've made a different choice.
Looking back at those inresidence years, the way corps stuff was mostly rah-rah hype. "Training?"........... actually the more apt description would be programming.
The first three months of my corps programming were.....pfal re-runs. We sat thru wierwille's class...... again! Then, those other classes.....renewed mind, waytree, wit & undershep, etc.... I couldn't believe that THIS was almighty "corps training." Same stuff, different classroom.
"In your face"......could have been the motto for the way corps. But hey......I was young and naive and used to team sports where coaches do that sort of thing. Class after class after class.......speakers and "teachers" would drive home the points of a dale carnegie book, or jc is not g book, etc. Sometimes, I would balk and say......don't these guys know we can READ???????
And, they assumed we were idiots or something. Like the gun training thing, it took about five hours of waiting around before I held a shotgun and fired two shots............TWO SHOTS. I never had the heart to tell those "shooting range guys" that I had been pheasant hunting and rabbit hunting since I was old enough to carry a gun!! Twenty-guage shotgun, twelve-guage shotgun, .22 caliber rifle, bow & arrow, ........... been around, done that.
.....
Okay, Johnny.........let's keep it in context shall we.
My first three months inresidence were rerun classes......so good, so far? And, other classes like the dale carnegie book was taught......and the jc is not g book was taught to us.......etc {i.e. other books were taught to us......like JCOP, JCOPS, etc.].
And, let me add.......jet-style packing really helped, mal-pack/conspiracy theories oh boy, dog training (or is that pavlov's conditioning?), none dare call it conspiracy, the 13th tribe, communist takeovers, etc........all of this stuff really helped me.
Some corps were assigned to weed a flower bed.....for their 1/2 day work assignment. Others dusted banisters, or swept the foyers, etc. etc.............lots and lots of busy work.
Now......"And, they assumed we were idiots or something. Like the gun training thing......blah, blah, blah," For me and some other guys who thought it was hokey (not everyone).....the hype of gun training didn't match the experience. And yes, I realized that others might get some learning from it...........but... TWO SHOTS??????
Of course, in a group of 500 people some might have a fear of holding a shotgun.......but I found the condescending attitude bordering on treating me like an idiot. That's all. Heck, they could have asked us to fill out a questionaire, got some background information or something?? NO, not in the corps......just herded us around and branch guys taking roll call. Sheeeesh.
And, I can't tell you how many times I heard wierwille say...........YOU CORPS ARE LAZY, NONE OF YOU KNOW HOW TO THINK OR WORK. Is there an assumption there?? Absolutely. Wierwille treated the corps as a unit.....and treated us like we were 14 year olds.
Sometimes we even got pizza. Whoopee.
But, of course..........every corps experience was different, every corps coordinator handled things differently, the family corps was different than the emporia corps, etc. etc. etc.
Hopefully, this helps clarify my post a little better.
Well, I was in the Tenth Corps, and our Kansas Safe Hunter course was a lot of fun. The people who ran it were fun and loving. We laughed alot, and did our best to help those who had a fear of "guns". No doubt it could well have been different with you all. They didn't "assume we were idiots" (idiotes-grin)
Well, I was in the Tenth Corps, and our Kansas Safe Hunter course was a lot of fun. The people who ran it were fun and loving. We laughed alot, and did our best to help those who had a fear of "guns". No doubt it could well have been different with you all. They didn't "assume we were idiots" (idiotes-grin)
Johnny,
Whatever.
You're pulling that one statement out of context.....but I think you already know that.
The numbers speak for themselves. Last I knew, there were 6 corps people from the 6th corps still actively standing with twi. How many started in the 6th corps? 350 or so?
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doojable
You're right OM we did beg people like you to pay for it.
That was another requirement of the program. Even people who could afford to pay for the program on their own were encouraged to get sponsorship.
I remember getting so low that I was on a day-to- day basis. I finally got to stay because one ex-corps buddy had had his entire year paid for but wat booted out befor his final year was up. He allowed his unused funds to be transfered to my account. The remaining balance was tiny, and my first Twig leader paid for that(while she was in res.)
So we were yelled at, worked hard, deprived sleep (in some instances - THAT story is on my Devine Design thread,) and made to be beggars.
Om you should be just as angry about it all as we get 'cause not only were you asked (or harassed,probably A LOT) to sponsor, your hard-earned money went into a program that had only questionable results regarding "spiritual leadership and training." All this, and leadership kept telling all you guys that sponsorship had to be above and beyond your ABS.
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Belle
I really like it when y'all share these things about your training and experiences. Thanks for taking the time to type them up for us. :)
Socks, you definitely have a way with words and I'd gladly buy your book to help you make billiions. Maybe it'll get you a sturdier soapbox.
ex10, your description of your first years "on the field" and the hamster wheel you found yourself running on is exactly how I felt. It started with one or two things and snowballed into never having any time for a life outside of doing TWIt things.
We got married and came back from our honeymoon to move the very next day. THEN, we were still trying to settle in to our new home together BUT Moneyhands was having a limb meeting over an hour away. We didn't have any money to stay in a hotel nearby and really didn't have the time, energy or desire to go since we were newlyweds. BUT we were told it was the most spiritual event of the year in our area and it was spiritually vital for our lives that we be there.
Being the good little wayfers that we were, we shuttled back and forth dog tired and it wasn't anything significant. I was peeved. THEN we were asked to be HFC assistants, then we had meetings 3x/week, HFC meetings 1x/week, witnessing 1x/week and prayer partners every day in addition to all the paperwork and reports on all these activities we had to do. We tried for TWO YEARS to step down as assistants, but my ex always caved when they would say "but we REALLY need you" or there was some "spiritual crisis" they needed us to handle.
There just wasn't any time to think, breathe or sleep. On top of this I was living in "Sleeping with the Enemy" and had to keep the house white glove test clean 24/7. It's a wonder I didn't have a nervous breakdown in the midst of all that. I WAS having panic attacks and trouble breathing. Our HFC and Dootie Moneyhands recognized it as stress, but didn't offer any help, suggestions or concern, afterall, I was still jumping through their hoops..... Shoulda been a clue....
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oldiesman
Doojable, I'm not angry at all. I was happy to help out when I could.
Of course, sometimes I said "no", like the time someone I really didn't like that much asked me to sponsor him.
It went something like this:
"can you sponsor me"?
"well I'm already sponsoring two other people"
"can you sponsor a third"? :(
That is bold, but also selfish. I'm glad I didn't.
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topoftheworld
Yeah, I was skating on thin ice the whole way through. And, yeah, Oldies, I probably would have begged you.
I mean, jeez....took PFAL at age 16, worked minimum wage jobs while finishing high school, commited to serve at various in-state programs, went WOW thrice, which required part-time, low paying jobs, and then spent whatever I had saved on getting back and forth to Ohio every year.
And, everybody I knew had already gone into the Corps, was planning on going into the Corps, or had gone or were going WOW, which meant part time low paying work.
I only knew one or two who could chip in, and they were already sponsoring others. If I had the nerve (which I didn't) would have approached perfect strangers and hoped they had a heart to help.
It was pointed out to me that I was worthless because I could not keep up the sponsorship, and therefore had no right to be in the Corps. (This did not come from Craig, BTW). Because of that and some other things that were said, I left. Sure didn't want to stay where I wasn't wanted. What a waste! Four years down the drain..my heart's desire smashed out of me...because one person decided it was their turn to be cruel. With no family, and few friends in a position to help, I had still managed to make it 'till just two or three months from graduating.
Sorry, guys.....this one hurts. I really would have been proud to have graduated with my Corps: even today it would have meant something. After everything that had happened, it would have been the proudest day of my life.
Well, Oldies, I guess you wouldn't have liked me....
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J0nny Ling0
Skyrider said:
Come on Skyrider, lighten up. I was raised to shoot and hunt also. Firearm safety was drilled into me at a young age. But really, I remember certain Europeans who literally "jumped out of their skins" when they watched and then heard the sound of a bolt action being racked an locked down at the front of the classroom. And when it came to shooting the "dreaded mule kicking 12 gage" at the range, I remember one poor Irish guy literally shaking as he was handed the shotgun. Complete and total fear some of these people had, and the experience for them was very valuable. And then you said; "been around, done that".
Well, good for you! But it certainly wasn't everybody, or even half of everybody. What I did as the time approached to do some minimal shooting, was to talk with my Irish friend, and help him to allay his fears as he shakily raised that shotgun up. Yet you say; "And, they assumed we were idiots or something. Like the gun training thing",
Look "They" didn't "assume we were idiots", They simply supplied the Kansas Safe Hunters course for us. And, if you are a hunter, and have been around firearms, you will know, brother, that there really are some very careless and ignorant people out there when it comes to firearms. Not that they are "evil stupid", but just flat out ignorant. When I was WOW in Los Angeles, my two WOW sistahs went to dinner with these two guys they were witnessing to. They went to the guys's apartment where the guys made them spaghetti. Then the guys gave them wine, and they all got fairly loaded-yeah, you know what they wanted. And then this guy gets out his 30.06 (high powered rifle for those of you who may not know), and passes it around. As my one WOW sistah holds the rifle, she "jokingly" points it at the other three and says "Freeze dirtbags!" One of the guys, knowing that the rifle was loaded, reaches out, pushes the barrel towards the ceiling, just as the sumbit*h goes off!
Yeah, there was the deafening roar of a 30.06 in a small apartment, which also put a hole in the ceiling which could have killed one to two innocent people in the apartments above. When the story was relayed to me, I was aghast! Needless to say, I grilled them on gun safety! And so, when I was in the in residence training program in the Corps, I was glad to see such a practicle course made available to us. The knowledge and practicle experience was not for we who "already knew", but for those who didn't. And certainly it could have been more extensive when it came to the time on the shooting range, but at least it whet their whistles, and help allay some needless fears.
Look folks, you may believe that you were ripped off by The Way, and that years of your life were totally wasted. And maybe it is easy because of the bitterness to "pick apart" every little thing and supply a "bandwagon" for others to jump on with you, but, come on. In The Way Corps training, the Hunter Safety course was not supplied because "they assumed we were idiots". It was supplied because many many people are entirely unknowledgeable about the safe handling of firearms, and the course just may well have given some individual just enough practical knowledge and experience that could have saved some one's life down the road. Certainly there were injustices done, but let's not invent injustices just for the sake of griping. Certainly that four years of our lives could have been used doing something else. But at the very least, the Hunter Safety course was a major thrill for my Irish friend (after the time on the range), and later, at Gunnison, I took him shooting up in the hills behind the water tank, and I was glad that he'd had the safety factor drilled into his head. And believe me, for him, walking the sage brush in the American West with a .22 looking for jack rabbits was such a thrill! (I carried the .12 gage
). But at the end of the "hunt" it was only "empty pop bottles was all we did kill".
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ex10
Aw, Top, if I makes any difference I ADMIRE YOU FOR WHAT YOU ENDURED. I mean that with everything in me.
It was only by the grace of God, and supportive friends and family, mainly family, that I made it through, myself.
Johnny, I appreciate what you are saying, but everybody's experience was different. It's good to respect that, IMHO.
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oldiesman
That's so sad... I would have helped.
Thank God you didn't kill yourself.
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WordWolf
How much training does it take to remember the basics on
"how not to accidentally shoot people"?
A) Always treat all guns as loaded unless you have emptied it yourself.
B) Never point a gun at anything unless you intend to destroy it.
C) Keep your finger off the trigger until your sight is on the target.
D) Watch your backstop and anything the bullet/s may come in contact with.
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J0nny Ling0
Easy to say as an American who may well also have grown up around firearms. But to so many of these Europeans, and to many of our city dwelling Countrymen and women, the only owners of guns are terrorists and criminals.
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ex10
I apologize, Johnny, I thought you were jumping on people. I must be misunderstanding you.
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shortfuse
The Way Corps commitment is hard to relate exactly to any other commitment. I said marriage because that is the only other lifetime commitment I could think of. Sure there are deal breakers - but some people will feel justified for divorce more easily than others. The high divorce rate today is in some way a testament to the difficulty had in finding solutions and the easy in identifying "deal breakers". Some people eventually reach a very blissful state of marriage because they stuck with it. Others have stayed in marriages for many years to their own hurt, perhaps "sticking with it" in hopes that it would eventually get better if they just stayed committed. I think you could look at the Corps commitment in both ways depending on individual experience.
The other thing the Corps is loosely related to is the real "Corps" namely the U.S. Marines. The highly trained special mission force ready to fight the enemy at any time, through any hardship. The marines are total BA's and deserve much respect for their commitment and discipline. Arguably though, very few maintain this level of service and "readiness for war", if you will, for LIFE. I think the Way Corps could learn from this fact. Perhaps the Way Corps do serve a "tour of duty" after training 5 to 10 years - go anywhere, do anything, no questions asked. Stay highly mobile, debt free -all that. But after that, ease back a bit - settle in, raise a family, run a fellowship, have a secular carreer. In the marines (and the military in general) you also have those who make a carreer of it. There's your clergy to go back to the ministering example. Carreer ministers should be ordained and make it their life's work.
The Way Corps is somewhere in between. Not ministers by profession, but also not fully engaged in secular life. In ecclesiastical terms this is sometimes called being a "bi-vocational" minister or pastor, and is common today in small non-denomenational churches. (Indeed there is some basis for this in the book of Acts.) It gives you the benefit of relating more to the congregation - you have a job and family and face the same challenges they do - but it also engenders the conflict of trying to do two fulltime jobs well. Serving two masters, if you will. Most people can't do it for the long term, they either go one way or the other.
Then of course there's the angle of a levitical preisthood which draws from the Old Testament, or as referenced by Mark O'Mally earlier, the religious orders or casts we see in the Catholic church (and other religions as well). The Corps concept is not derivative of any one of these ideas entirely, and is thus in the view of some, vague and poorly defined.
So to answer the question, "lifetime" is not necessarily a problem, nor is "commitment." But someone should take a hard look at what EXACTLY is being committed to and for HOW LONG.
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J0nny Ling0
Uh oh. Looks like I was posting as you were posting EX10. And thanks. :). And, I appreciate your rundown of your time as branch coordinators in KS. Reminds me of my first two years of marriage in Alaska. My wife and I with new baby were expected to drive to Anchorage three hours away every weekend for "leaders meetings". I was the twig area coordinator of five twigs on the Kenai Peninsula. And that drive was over snowy mountain passes to boot, at least in the winter. And we never dropped less than $100.00 plus of our won money each time we went there. Yeah, that's like four hundred plus a month, and no TWI credit card to pay the costs.
Also, I remember that the LC had a big leaders meeting on the opening day of Moose Season the first year of hi LC-ship. And it was funny, the local Alaskans were like "f___ you! We hunt for meat! We ain't comin!" And, they didn't show. But dutifully, I and my wife and baby drove to Anchortown anyway, where we listened to the LC rant over the lack of love for God just because people "liked to hunt." But ya know, since I had recently been ordained, I took the opportunity to take offense at what he said and point out that he was out of touch with reality, having just come from Kansas as the LC there, and that Alaskans work very hard and many hunt annually to fill their freezers, and that just maybe, in the name of "Word in Culture" he could have scheduled the first big leaders meeting of the year at a different time. This brought many nods of agreement from the few present who did come, and caused him to shut up for the moment. But I did get reamed later in private, but I still enjoyed my "peer level advantage" and disagreed with him to his face, which really pi ssed him off.
And to think that I passed up on an enormous bull on my drive to Anchorage with my rifle in the truck! I could have bagged him, told the LC, "sorry, I can't make it, got lots of cuttin and wrappin to do!" But, I quelled my "selfish desires", and drove on, and Bullwinkle got to live to see another day. Well, at least it turned out good for old Bullwinkle on that :) day... :)
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WordWolf
Johnny:
I wasn't reacting to the "gun safety course",
I was reacting to an idiot with a loaded shotgun in an apartment,
passing it around and getting a hole blown in the ceiling.
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ex10
I think bottom line, one of the big reasons TWI failed so dramatically was that the "needs of the ministry," were always put before individuals. People were expendable. Many of us never got the chance to really develop as "leaders" because we had to fit the precut mold that somebody else fabricated for us.
If we attempted to set healthy boundaries, and be honest and realistic about our own individual part in the bigger scheme of things, we got alot of grief.
I think a big part of "leadership" is helping bring out the best in others. You know, helping somebody discover their own unique "talent" and then helping them develop that.
In TWI, the emphasis was so much on meetings, teachings, classes and keeping that momentum rolling, that there was little room to grow in other aspects of "ministry."
It was a very narrow box that we had to squeeze ourselves into. No wonder so many relationships fell apart. Not just marriages only. I mean look what TWI has morphed into.....
Tis very sad.
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doojable
Jonny,
I have said before and I will repeat that for the most part my time in TWi was OK..same with my time in thecorps.
Its only as I look back and think about things tht they just don't jive. I never had the "hamster on the wheel" effect - no - P@t L^nn just looked me straight in the eye and told me she didnt' think I was much of a leader. Then I looked her straight in the eye and told her she was wrong.
I had a LOT of good times - but those times centered around the people I met and not the things I did or the things I learned - though there was some things I learned.
So, I don't mean to get on any bandwagon - or start one - but thanks for your input. Your opinion counts.
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Lifted Up
I agree. Along that line, I think some people who presumably are describing their own experiences, but instead write, this happened to us, or that we were deceived and/or given the shaft, are trying to make their line apply to all.
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J0nny Ling0
Tis very sad indeed EX10...
And WW, sorry, I thought you meant otherwise. But, yea-ah! I could hardly believe my ears when the story of my WOW sis pointing that loaded rifle at everyone was relayed to me. But, that's the point, people have and will continue to act with incredible stupidity when it comes to firearms! The stories abound, and sadly will continue to do so. In fact, with a number of Corps brothers and sistahs' I did my usual " .22 caliber exhibtion", just to show how deadly even a .22 can be. Like with my Irish friend, I took an empty coke can, filled it with water, and then at a decent distance had him shoot it and watch as the whole can literally exploded, with water a flyin', demonstrating the effect of "hydroshock" from even a little old .22 caliber rifle or handgun. As you may know, our bodies are a high percentage of water. Education is the key, and so this is why I thought that aspect of Corps training was worthwhile, as you may well agree...
The Red Dragon said that to you Dooj? What a bee-otch! And good for you for sticking up for yourself like that! You went girl!
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templelady
Socks
I hereby give you my old, solid gold, engraved soapbox with the velvet cushion to be yours now and forever for use here at the cafe so you may expound in style and comfort
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pond
Ex 10
I read in your post you would experience "grief" if you didnt comply with what the way asked you to do as volunteers in the way corps.
I read it , and I saw it plenty.. for many years and as the years went on it just got worse and worse for them. with the added "grief " fo losing so many friends and often family members along the way who choose to leave the orgainzation.
I saw so many many go into the way coprs and drop out and again some several times for the same reason or new and improved ones, yet they always could go back and try again come up with some more money and put themselfes through it all over again.
many many single moms went through family corps here.
so they got the "grief" you spoke of but they were NOT asked to leave the way.
so you went through the way corps and got "grief". Why? WHY? did you not just say 'EXcuse me time for me to do this carry on with my own dreams and life and take some down time on your volunteer job time.
I know corps who did not just go where they were assigned they went where they wanted to be close to family memebers I know corps who divorced corps and married clergy I had seen it all. it was a who is who game as I said.
so it was done. alot at least in the eighties, in the ninties it was a horse of a different color and those poor poor souls had a beating for sure.
whydid you personaly do it EVEN when you knew it was wrong for you?
o the grief the grief the way corps took being leaders in the way beat all , so being "active" was no picnic either.
it was your choice? why did you chose to endure? the whole time just wishing it would change for you?
I didnt understand why they took the abuse then and /or why they stayed nor do I now.
One note : tho if it about you changing your ideals about what twi was that is different you changed your belief system and now see things differently than then. that is a clear cut answer YOU changed your mind.
like those who bought the whole body mind and spirit routine and having abortions and now claiming to be pro-life.. twi was never pro-life they still are not, in that case a person feels more enlightened or educated about the situation and makes a different choice. twi never changed or did any double talk on that . i
NOT that ! not the things you feel twi did wrong and have changed your mind about.. you liked twi you chose to go into the corps , it was not making your day , why did you stay?
you say your full of regret, and you had felt that way while still doing things you didnt want to do with your life, but the fear of this "grief" made you stay.
it sounds like you were unhappy living the manner you were living but unable to make the choice to live another manner and reach for your dreams out of fear of what the others thought of you.
is that the case?
I know peopel stayed to keep their marriages together etc. which is pathetic but a personal choice to be made by the individual. but you have the answer Im looking for , please do share.
If you didnt like the direction your life was going why did you feel unable to change it? and if you couldnt who could? twi permisssion or approval was needed by you to move forward to serve God and His people?
I do not get that never will.
I think twi chose twi over individuals as I said before but why would individuals chose twi over their own selff?
that I never understood. still do not. care to educate me?
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pond
A little side note here.
I truly believe the way corps I was with and around and hung with cared about people. I believe they loved god with their whole heart and soul.. and they thought they were doing a good thing.
yes they did get beat up alot and I often believed it was uncalled for.. but I am not was not "corps" so who was I to say what they should have or not have put up with in life.
As I never made that choice.
the choice was theirs. many were miserable that was so clear in the 90's , and I got more confused on why they would allow their life to turn into such unhappiness and often wreckage because twi said they had to.
the corps I knew KNEW twi and that it had problems many had been in many many years and seen many leave to never come back , they knew the bad and still felt it was worth it.
I think some stayed to try to change things the best they could, that went around for a few years.
but it didnt work.
why in hell would a person compromise their own dreams and the family to do it?
the whole time I just kept telling them God loves you more than twi ever will or could. God wants you happy. that is what I believe to this day.
I never felt way corps where "more powerful" or more loved by God, or even clergy for that matter. I know God is no respector of people or what they do and loves us all the same.
was the mighty rewards? never bought into that side show either.
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ex10
Pond
I thought I made myself pretty clear. But just in case, the answer is:
I was young, naive, and wanted to make a difference in people's lives.
Husband and I had no idea what we were in for, and how long it would last. We believed in "the ministry."
We don't regret what we did, or the lifelong friends we made, and the pretty hysterical and fond memories we have of wild times. But truth be told, hindsight is 20/20 and knowing what I know now, um, 24 years later, I/we would've made a different choice.
Does that answer your question?
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skyrider
Okay, Johnny.........let's keep it in context shall we.
My first three months inresidence were rerun classes......so good, so far? And, other classes like the dale carnegie book was taught......and the jc is not g book was taught to us.......etc {i.e. other books were taught to us......like JCOP, JCOPS, etc.].
And, let me add.......jet-style packing really helped, mal-pack/conspiracy theories oh boy, dog training (or is that pavlov's conditioning?), none dare call it conspiracy, the 13th tribe, communist takeovers, etc........all of this stuff really helped me.
Some corps were assigned to weed a flower bed.....for their 1/2 day work assignment. Others dusted banisters, or swept the foyers, etc. etc.............lots and lots of busy work.
Now......"And, they assumed we were idiots or something. Like the gun training thing......blah, blah, blah," For me and some other guys who thought it was hokey (not everyone).....the hype of gun training didn't match the experience. And yes, I realized that others might get some learning from it...........but... TWO SHOTS??????
Of course, in a group of 500 people some might have a fear of holding a shotgun.......but I found the condescending attitude bordering on treating me like an idiot. That's all. Heck, they could have asked us to fill out a questionaire, got some background information or something?? NO, not in the corps......just herded us around and branch guys taking roll call. Sheeeesh.
And, I can't tell you how many times I heard wierwille say...........YOU CORPS ARE LAZY, NONE OF YOU KNOW HOW TO THINK OR WORK. Is there an assumption there?? Absolutely. Wierwille treated the corps as a unit.....and treated us like we were 14 year olds.
Sometimes we even got pizza. Whoopee.
But, of course..........every corps experience was different, every corps coordinator handled things differently, the family corps was different than the emporia corps, etc. etc. etc.
Hopefully, this helps clarify my post a little better.
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J0nny Ling0
Well, I was in the Tenth Corps, and our Kansas Safe Hunter course was a lot of fun. The people who ran it were fun and loving. We laughed alot, and did our best to help those who had a fear of "guns". No doubt it could well have been different with you all. They didn't "assume we were idiots" (idiotes-grin)
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skyrider
Johnny,
Whatever.
You're pulling that one statement out of context.....but I think you already know that.
The numbers speak for themselves. Last I knew, there were 6 corps people from the 6th corps still actively standing with twi. How many started in the 6th corps? 350 or so?
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