sprawled out...Welcome! Always good to see new faces here.
This is one of my favorite subjects to discuss...
How valid were the ordinations in twi? Very good question...A former clergyman of twi recently told me that he was ordained because he had the ability to make money for twi...
In my opinion, Wierwiile ordained people based upon his carnal considerations. Personality, charisma, loyalty to Veepee and the ability to make twi money...these were the essential ingredients for ordination. No revelation involved.
I suppose if a person feels "called of God" to be clergy, then they didn't need Veepee's ordination to begin with...and yes, there are a number of former twi clergy who feel this way and have stayed true to what they believe is a calling of God.
In my opinion, the title "reverend" is somewhat bogus. I don't see it in the new testament at all...Rev. Paul? Rev Peter?...nope. In twi, the title rev was more often than not, a source of feeding the ego. It created the "haves and have nots"...First you become a grad of the class, then you get your wow pin, then you become an advanced class grad, then corps...it was an echelon of nametags and titles...who was more impressive?...the ultimate was ordination.
...I think MOST of them deserved to be drop kicked.
Not just Way ordinations, but ordination in general (as it commonly practiced.) I don't think the church was intended to be divided into a ruling class (clergy) and a subservient class (laity).
Speaking as an ex way clergy I can give you my perspective.
Here's how it worked. I was in the 5th corps. By the time I graduated, there were ordination services at every corps week. VPW sent out a letter asking if you'd like to be ordained. This happened about a year after corps graduation. If you said yes, then you got ordained at corps week. I heard (but can't confirm) that every corps grad who was still standing a year after they graduated got a letter.
I'm not sure how it worked for earlier corps nor how long it worked like that.
In our case there was a meeting before the ordination of all the existing clergy and all the newbies. We paired up and that's how it was determined who laid hands on us. There were so many new recruits that we almost had to double up. Some (for example myself) got prophesied over by somone we had almost know relationship with.
Does this make one ordained of god? Beats me. I no longer claim to speak on behalf of the almighty and I ask the same constraint of him/her/it/them.
Was it "real" from a legal perspective? In this country, every religious group gets to set their own standards for ordination. Most states accept that - but the only activity an ordained clergy does with any legal standing is perform marriages - the other stuff: funerals, communion, baptism are just church things.
I only ever dealt with one WC who was clergy, Steve Strezpec.
In about 1980, in my first fellowship we had a couple [Harrel and Fran Strayhorn] who had asked him to perform their wedding, he had told them that he would and that he wanted to counsel them first. So they were going through his counseling sessions every time that the guy was in port [Harrel was a sailor]. Well six months later, Harrel was getting ready to be transferred and they needed the wedding to happen soon so that Fran could follow Harrel during his transfer onto his next duty station, but when they spoke with S. Strezpec he just dragged it on.
I did not see how a license from any one ministry was 'better' than any other, as the way that my Bible seemed to read, all followers are saints and ordained. So I sent away for a ordination. A month later, they were still trying to get S. Strezpec to give them a date, so I volunteered to perform a wedding myself.
We had a wonderful time.
The following week, S. Strezpec came to visit our fellowship to confront us. Now at the time, I had been 'in' for about two years and I had been in that same area for the entire time. This visit of S. Strezpec's was the first time that I had seen or met him, he did not get out among his limb too often in those days.
S. Strezpec was very upset and he told us that he had no intention of actually marrying them, as they were not qualified to get married [s. Strezpec wanted Harrel to get out of the Navy and go WC instead]. He was just leading them on, pretending that he was going to marry them, until he could talk them out of it.
S. Strezpec declared to everyone that I was "born of a different spiritual seed" and not to be allowed into fellowship any longer.
I talk to the Strayhorns all the time, it has been 26 years now that they have been together.
Being a teacher ( and that's all "clergy" are when you get down to it) is a calling of God. Anyone who is called can do it, all they have to do is listen to the Spirit and know the Scriptures. What is Called Clergy in Protestant and Catholic Christianity refers to people who are steeped in the doctrines of their particular faith.
But to just teach Scripture, we all did it in TWI, many of the best teachings I heard were from my fellow "leaves", of course this was in the day when you were allowed to do your own research and not just re-parrot Leadership.
I did not see how a license from any one ministry was 'better' than any other...
Good point, although TWI was pretty clear that their ordinations, teachings, and maybe even holy spirit was better than everyone else's. I can't imagine any circumstances where TWI leadership would approve of someone getting ordained outside of their structure in order to do weddings. I know of a few instances where unordained limb or branch coordinators (once by a non-Way Corps, non-Advanced Class grad) did "ministry weddings", approved up the chain of command, but a judge did the "legal" ceremony.
Here in Nebraska, the law states that an "ordained minister" can perform a wedding, but does not define what "ordained minister" means, and no one checks on the credentials of the officiant at a Nebraska wedding anyway.
by topof the world:
So what were the TWI requirements for ordination? The ones they named or taught about, not the under the table reasons.
I don't ever remember hearing clear requirements for ordination while "in". Ordained guys and gals were usually viewed as being "a cut above" in the TWI pecking order, with occasional exceptions: Don Wierwille and Howard Allen, as well as Ermal Owens being examples that come immediately to mind.
in the end, it was EXACTLY what a lot of them wanted.
power corrupts, baby. (and power for abundant living corrupted, absolutely!) :D
Yup ... it was a great club ... they were oh so much better ... in their smug way ... LOL
OK, now I'm gonna dredge up some past memories ... the "clergy" having me wait outside for new people, while he taught MY teaching ... verse by verse ... bastid ... I can hear thru the door dick. LOL And the time he put his hands in the pants of a new "grad" in my Way home ... by revelation I guess. And the cute girl staff at his home ... man ... clergy my arse. Why did I stick around that long? Weakness I guess ...
Of course higher up rev's that pulled girls' tops down, in good fun of course. I guess there may have been some that were OK ... maybe. I'd say in hindsight being "ordained" in twi was more demerit than something to be proud of. But maybe I was just jealous. Or maybe they were just bigger jerks.
I'm just trying to make friends with all the heavy revy's here LOL My3cents was OK, as far as I know :) Of course now he seems lost in that liberal cult called the democrats, but there may be hope for him.
So what were the TWI requirements for ordination? The ones they named or taught about, not the under the table reasons.
It was supposed to signify "one with a gift ministry"... evangelist, pastor, teacher, prophet and... dangit! can't remember the fifth... according to TWI.
It was supposed to signify "one with a gift ministry"... evangelist, pastor, teacher, prophet and... dangit! can't remember the fifth... according to TWI.
Not only the five gift ministries [Eph. 4:11]......but helps and governments (organizational abilities) as noted in I Corinthians 12:28.
Many from the 6th - 10th corps could be categorized into the latter group, helps & government. With the rapid growth in twi from 1977-1984, those organizational longsuits were in high demand.
From my experience, there were clergy who exhibited good & bad all along the spectrum.......some of the finest, some of the most arrogant. Around 350 to 400 twi clergy before the exodus. Like any group, just too much diversity to make any bland statements.
IMO, among the finest........Lonnxll Johnsxn, 5th corps.
Who was that minister from a denomination (I think) that was in twi back in the 70's , 80's? I can't quite pull up the name. Was he around Emporia? He struck me more as someone that would really minister to people genuinely, not for fanfare. And the secret to radiant living guy, maybe, though I didn't know him (Peter Wade?).
Ross, that's right, thanks sky ... wonder what he really thought of VP ...
Rev. Lee Ella Danielson did my wedding..My Polish step gradmother got up in the middle of the service and left cause she a female...and my grandmother was Catholic...oh, well.Lee Ella almost took it upon her self to personaly to run PFAL as my father laid very sick in the hospital..
How do ya like those taters...a female ordained clergy...she was wonderful:)
They dont make them like they use too!!
** then LCm ordained every LC in the US of A, because of thier spiritual abilties to clean up the HOUSEHOLD of the WAY ...
Im not big on titles of any kind, I dont use them except as formal ways to show respect if someone has earned it and I dont know them very well.
If someone has a legitimate doctorate, has rightly earned it and i dont know them well enough yet to call them Joe or Ed then I will call them doctor until the formalities breakdown. The same pretty much goes for reverend, although my personal feeling is if the formalities dont eventually breakdown there is something wrong.
I know many revs. outside of twi who hardly ever use their titles and discourage others from using it but have earned it in a much more thorough manner than TWI revs. I also know people who have just sort of adopted the title because they think they should have it and they think that it gives them some air of legitimacy.
It's a strange title,
I knew a few Revs. in TWI who may have been gifted in one way or another, but overall lacked maturity, character or were one dimensional in other areas. I knew alot to who it was just a higher rung to show that they were better and more important than you.
It seems to me if someone is really gifted the last thing they need is a sign hanging around their neck announcing it
I exited twi in 1998.......and knew some LCs who were not ordained. Also, by 1994.....each year one or two LCs (non-clergy) refused to keep jumping thru the hoops, were confronted, or whatever........and quit or were listed m/a. For example, the LCs in Idaho exited in 1999......wrote a letter and sent it to their limb followers. This guy was NOT ordained by twi. After twi, he started up a little chocolate shop.
But hey........no biggie anyway. Not worth quibbling.
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GrouchoMarxJr
sprawled out...Welcome! Always good to see new faces here.
This is one of my favorite subjects to discuss...
How valid were the ordinations in twi? Very good question...A former clergyman of twi recently told me that he was ordained because he had the ability to make money for twi...
In my opinion, Wierwiile ordained people based upon his carnal considerations. Personality, charisma, loyalty to Veepee and the ability to make twi money...these were the essential ingredients for ordination. No revelation involved.
I suppose if a person feels "called of God" to be clergy, then they didn't need Veepee's ordination to begin with...and yes, there are a number of former twi clergy who feel this way and have stayed true to what they believe is a calling of God.
In my opinion, the title "reverend" is somewhat bogus. I don't see it in the new testament at all...Rev. Paul? Rev Peter?...nope. In twi, the title rev was more often than not, a source of feeding the ego. It created the "haves and have nots"...First you become a grad of the class, then you get your wow pin, then you become an advanced class grad, then corps...it was an echelon of nametags and titles...who was more impressive?...the ultimate was ordination.
...I think MOST of them deserved to be drop kicked.
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Goey
Not just Way ordinations, but ordination in general (as it commonly practiced.) I don't think the church was intended to be divided into a ruling class (clergy) and a subservient class (laity).
The titles are worthless IMO. Show me the fruit.
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My3Cents
Speaking as an ex way clergy I can give you my perspective.
Here's how it worked. I was in the 5th corps. By the time I graduated, there were ordination services at every corps week. VPW sent out a letter asking if you'd like to be ordained. This happened about a year after corps graduation. If you said yes, then you got ordained at corps week. I heard (but can't confirm) that every corps grad who was still standing a year after they graduated got a letter.
I'm not sure how it worked for earlier corps nor how long it worked like that.
In our case there was a meeting before the ordination of all the existing clergy and all the newbies. We paired up and that's how it was determined who laid hands on us. There were so many new recruits that we almost had to double up. Some (for example myself) got prophesied over by somone we had almost know relationship with.
Does this make one ordained of god? Beats me. I no longer claim to speak on behalf of the almighty and I ask the same constraint of him/her/it/them.
Was it "real" from a legal perspective? In this country, every religious group gets to set their own standards for ordination. Most states accept that - but the only activity an ordained clergy does with any legal standing is perform marriages - the other stuff: funerals, communion, baptism are just church things.
Clergy can't perform divorces.
Hope that helps.
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dmiller
The word *Reverend*, only appears once in the bible.
Reverend is a word that means *to fear*.
Doesn't that make ya wanna have THAT title, in front of your name? :unsure:
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sprawled out
in the end, it was EXACTLY what a lot of them wanted.
power corrupts, baby. (and power for abundant living corrupted, absolutely!) :D
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topoftheworld
So what were the TWI requirements for ordination? The ones they named or taught about, not the under the table reasons.
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Galen
I only ever dealt with one WC who was clergy, Steve Strezpec.
In about 1980, in my first fellowship we had a couple [Harrel and Fran Strayhorn] who had asked him to perform their wedding, he had told them that he would and that he wanted to counsel them first. So they were going through his counseling sessions every time that the guy was in port [Harrel was a sailor]. Well six months later, Harrel was getting ready to be transferred and they needed the wedding to happen soon so that Fran could follow Harrel during his transfer onto his next duty station, but when they spoke with S. Strezpec he just dragged it on.
I did not see how a license from any one ministry was 'better' than any other, as the way that my Bible seemed to read, all followers are saints and ordained. So I sent away for a ordination. A month later, they were still trying to get S. Strezpec to give them a date, so I volunteered to perform a wedding myself.
We had a wonderful time.
The following week, S. Strezpec came to visit our fellowship to confront us. Now at the time, I had been 'in' for about two years and I had been in that same area for the entire time. This visit of S. Strezpec's was the first time that I had seen or met him, he did not get out among his limb too often in those days.
S. Strezpec was very upset and he told us that he had no intention of actually marrying them, as they were not qualified to get married [s. Strezpec wanted Harrel to get out of the Navy and go WC instead]. He was just leading them on, pretending that he was going to marry them, until he could talk them out of it.
S. Strezpec declared to everyone that I was "born of a different spiritual seed" and not to be allowed into fellowship any longer.
I talk to the Strayhorns all the time, it has been 26 years now that they have been together.
Strezpec is a loser.
:)
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templelady
Being a teacher ( and that's all "clergy" are when you get down to it) is a calling of God. Anyone who is called can do it, all they have to do is listen to the Spirit and know the Scriptures. What is Called Clergy in Protestant and Catholic Christianity refers to people who are steeped in the doctrines of their particular faith.
But to just teach Scripture, we all did it in TWI, many of the best teachings I heard were from my fellow "leaves", of course this was in the day when you were allowed to do your own research and not just re-parrot Leadership.
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Oakspear
Here in Nebraska, the law states that an "ordained minister" can perform a wedding, but does not define what "ordained minister" means, and no one checks on the credentials of the officiant at a Nebraska wedding anyway.
I don't ever remember hearing clear requirements for ordination while "in". Ordained guys and gals were usually viewed as being "a cut above" in the TWI pecking order, with occasional exceptions: Don Wierwille and Howard Allen, as well as Ermal Owens being examples that come immediately to mind.Link to comment
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Tom Strange
Good story Galen.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe you were??? :)
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rhino
Yup ... it was a great club ... they were oh so much better ... in their smug way ... LOL
OK, now I'm gonna dredge up some past memories ... the "clergy" having me wait outside for new people, while he taught MY teaching ... verse by verse ... bastid ... I can hear thru the door dick. LOL And the time he put his hands in the pants of a new "grad" in my Way home ... by revelation I guess. And the cute girl staff at his home ... man ... clergy my arse. Why did I stick around that long? Weakness I guess ...
Of course higher up rev's that pulled girls' tops down, in good fun of course. I guess there may have been some that were OK ... maybe. I'd say in hindsight being "ordained" in twi was more demerit than something to be proud of. But maybe I was just jealous. Or maybe they were just bigger jerks.
I'm just trying to make friends with all the heavy revy's here LOL My3cents was OK, as far as I know :) Of course now he seems lost in that liberal cult called the democrats, but there may be hope for him.
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Tom Strange
It was supposed to signify "one with a gift ministry"... evangelist, pastor, teacher, prophet and... dangit! can't remember the fifth... according to TWI.
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skyrider
apostle.
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Tom Strange
yeah... I just thought of it and came back here to post... (really)
...how could I forget Apostle? oh well... if they have one for CRS I'd get that!
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skyrider
Not only the five gift ministries [Eph. 4:11]......but helps and governments (organizational abilities) as noted in I Corinthians 12:28.
Many from the 6th - 10th corps could be categorized into the latter group, helps & government. With the rapid growth in twi from 1977-1984, those organizational longsuits were in high demand.
From my experience, there were clergy who exhibited good & bad all along the spectrum.......some of the finest, some of the most arrogant. Around 350 to 400 twi clergy before the exodus. Like any group, just too much diversity to make any bland statements.
IMO, among the finest........Lonnxll Johnsxn, 5th corps.
IMO, among the worst........Cgeer, 7th corps.
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rhino
Who was that minister from a denomination (I think) that was in twi back in the 70's , 80's? I can't quite pull up the name. Was he around Emporia? He struck me more as someone that would really minister to people genuinely, not for fanfare. And the secret to radiant living guy, maybe, though I didn't know him (Peter Wade?).
Ross, that's right, thanks sky ... wonder what he really thought of VP ...
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skyrider
rhino,
the only name that I can pull up from what you said...........Ross Tr@cy
can't think of any others
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likeaneagle
Rev. Lee Ella Danielson did my wedding..My Polish step gradmother got up in the middle of the service and left cause she a female...and my grandmother was Catholic...oh, well.Lee Ella almost took it upon her self to personaly to run PFAL as my father laid very sick in the hospital..
How do ya like those taters...a female ordained clergy...she was wonderful:)
They dont make them like they use too!!
** then LCm ordained every LC in the US of A, because of thier spiritual abilties to clean up the HOUSEHOLD of the WAY ...
Post 90'
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skyrider
not every LC............but alot of them.
lots of corps & clergy kept exiting.......especially after 1994.
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likeaneagle
I said EVERY LC..
I left in 2000
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Tom Strange
That must've come along after I left...
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mstar1
Im not big on titles of any kind, I dont use them except as formal ways to show respect if someone has earned it and I dont know them very well.
If someone has a legitimate doctorate, has rightly earned it and i dont know them well enough yet to call them Joe or Ed then I will call them doctor until the formalities breakdown. The same pretty much goes for reverend, although my personal feeling is if the formalities dont eventually breakdown there is something wrong.
I know many revs. outside of twi who hardly ever use their titles and discourage others from using it but have earned it in a much more thorough manner than TWI revs. I also know people who have just sort of adopted the title because they think they should have it and they think that it gives them some air of legitimacy.
It's a strange title,
I knew a few Revs. in TWI who may have been gifted in one way or another, but overall lacked maturity, character or were one dimensional in other areas. I knew alot to who it was just a higher rung to show that they were better and more important than you.
It seems to me if someone is really gifted the last thing they need is a sign hanging around their neck announcing it
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skyrider
likeaneagle,
guess it depends on how you qualify it.
I exited twi in 1998.......and knew some LCs who were not ordained. Also, by 1994.....each year one or two LCs (non-clergy) refused to keep jumping thru the hoops, were confronted, or whatever........and quit or were listed m/a. For example, the LCs in Idaho exited in 1999......wrote a letter and sent it to their limb followers. This guy was NOT ordained by twi. After twi, he started up a little chocolate shop.
But hey........no biggie anyway. Not worth quibbling.
:)
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likeaneagle
they were not ordained in 2000. I think it was 1996 or 97, and they probaly have left too or got the boot.they were folks disappearing all the time..
sorry, I remember this very clearly..
Peace
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