Your opinion: vpw, his sins, and what he did.

[WordWolf]

What's your opinion?

[Zshot]

The hard part about this poll is...

While we were "in", many did not know of all the deeds that were done. Looking back, it is easier to see how he made the doctrine to fit his practices.

[rascal]

My opinion? I don`t think that he ever was a genuine Christian.........

Whether he knew it himself or not...even with all of his scriptural knowledge...He was a fraud.......one simply does NOT behave as he did if you have the spirit of God working within you.

Edited April 12, 2006 by rascal

[Zixar]

Zshot makes a good point. In those places and times that Wayfers had good leadership, it would have been hard to believe that the ministry was corrupt at all. Wierwille did a far better job at keeping the abuses quiet than Martindale, which is why TWI flourished outwardly for many years. Once LCM's rants replaced VPW's slick sermons, the organization stopped circling the bowl and slid down the pipe.

[Belle]

vee pee succeeded because he had genuine ministers of God and loving, gracious folks under his reign...craiggers got rid of those folks and that's when the sheep's clothing was yanked off the wolf.

vee pee wasn't good - just a good salesman who got lucky in having genuinely good folks associated with his ministry of b.s.

[ex10]

I agree with that assessment, Belle. To a point. As I have stated elsewhere, I think the picture is much bigger though.

And that's what I am interested is seeing. The bigger recipe, (for disaster, ha!) The whole enchilada, and all its ingredients; ro-tel, cheese, meat, and those pesky jalapenos included. ;)

[Belle]

And I agree, too, ex10. :) I highly respect you and know that you don't take people getting hurt lightly, but that you also saw a side of vee pee that a lot of people never did get to see. It's hard to reconcile those two images and to understand how someone who seemed so wonderful and caring could also be so vicious and evil.

It's kind of like my mother's father. He was a violent raging alcoholic and she would hide in the bathroom every day when she would hear his truck on the driveway. She would wait till he talked to someone else in the house to see what kind of mood he was in. :(

BUT, despite all that - he's her Daddy and she never wanted to say a bad thing about him for the longest time. I didn't know the man - hadn't seen him since I was 7 years old because of how bad a man he was. BUT, the last few years of his life, he reconciled with all the kids and they were genuinely hurt and upset when he died. I went to the funeral, not for him, but for them. I still don't like the man and resent the hell out of how much he abused my grandmother, my mom and her siblings....

It's easy for me, though. I didn't really ever know him like they did - same with vee pee. He was dead before I ever even heard of PFAL. I can totally see how someone in your situation has a very hard time with folks saying that he was evil through and through without a good cell in his body.

I don't know if he did or not, but I honestly don't believe that he ever had any altruistic motives when he started his own ministry. I think he took advantage of those who did to make himself rich and successful.... That, perhaps, is the only place where we differ in our opinions. :) I understand yours, I just don't agree with it.

[ex10]

Belle, for the record, I don't have a hard time with people saying that he was evil through and through. That is/was their experience, opinion, etc. and I respect that. It makes me no difference one way or the other.

I'm just trying to reconcile what I EXPERIENCED.

And thanks for the kind words.

Edited April 12, 2006 by ex10

[T-Bone]

We're all human - fallen creatures actually - we all sin. But it makes you stop and wonder - when you look at how the Bible addresses people in different places. In my opinion God calls things as they really are - so you'll see an epistle addressed to "the faithful" for example. What about when God labels people as murderers, adulterers, liars, etc.? I think it's when a particular sin has gotten to the point of LIFE-DOMINATING - that's what you've become! A LIFE-DOMINATING sin is going to pollute, infect, mar, screw up, destroy, yada yada yada everything in that person's life - cause that's the nature of sin [just like a computer virus - there's all kinds some more harmful than others]! In Ephesians it says let him that stole steal no more. When is a thief NOT a thief? When he's not stealing? No - because he may be just sleeping or awaiting an opportune moment. A thief is no longer a thief when he becomes something else! As Ephesians further implies he changes from a thief to an honest worker - and instead of stealing he now gives.

Edited April 12, 2006 by T-Bone

[dmiller]

What's your opinion?

My opinion?? My opinion is that I have a hard enuf time trying to right my personal wrongs ---

without worrying about the wrongs/ sins of others. ;)

[templelady]

the sins of VPW affected all of TWI in various ways, some so subtle as yto go unnoticed.

I realize that there are people out there, people on these boards, who found Jesus Christ though TWI. TO you I say, That is great but, can no way offset the evil that percolated through TWI especially as the years went by

[Belle]

I agree, Mo, and I further state that it wasn't because of TWI or vee pee, but because of the genuine ministers and "Christians" that vee pee exploited to build his empire.

It's an honor that is grossly mis-placed. Do those folks really believe that God is so impotent and non-powerful that he was limited to vee pee's outfit???

What the he11 kind of god would bring people to that kind of sh1t??

[likeaneagle]

I haven't formed any opinion about VPW because this is the first information I have read of his "Doings". I cannot make a honest decision based on others experiences or hearsay. I got in the word in 75 and left in 83 and rt'd in 90. Now I can justify the wrong doings to good hearted CHristians at the hands and instructions of LCM...I am a product of the 90's and mid 70's and have sat thru about 40 pfals and I know thru PFAL and newlife within me was opened..I can only make good sound decisions based on what I realy realy know..

Edited April 13, 2006 by likeaneagle

[coolchef1248 @adelphia.net]

i found christ at a very young age through the rcc

but it truly came to me from twi

i am thankful for that but it does't excuse the evil things they did?do

[topoftheworld]

I gotta try to say this right, so forgive me if I stumble:

His ministry made it ok to not care about people. Not really.

The love of God was extended only if you were "right on"-the defintion of which became a political distinction. If you were hurt, if you were ill, if you stumbled in any way, then you were either possessed or an unbelieving believer.

There was no geniune care of the people who made a committment, with all their human frailities, to study and teach and give money, except perhaps at the lowest common denominator, the twig, or HC, or whatever they call it now.

"It's the Word, people, the Word!". That phrase seems to have made it ok to judge people harshly outside of whatever criteria was established.

And somewhere got perverted into people being used, abused, and persecuted.

Geez...I had co-workers that cared more about me when push came to shove than people in the ministry. And that's just sick.

[ex10]

Top, yes!

You expressed it very well.

The phrase " respecter of persons" comes to mind. Bingo! You put another piece of the puzzle together for me.

[WhiteDove]

the sins of VPW affected all of TWI in various ways, some so subtle as yto go unnoticed.

I realize that there are people out there, people on these boards, who found Jesus Christ though TWI. TO you I say, That is great but, can no way offset the evil that percolated through TWI especially as the years went by

Just wondering why you think one has to offset the other? Why can't each be what they are and stand or not, on thier own merit?

[rascal]

Wow...oh WOW ..Topof the world...

*made it ok not to care* omg that is IT!!!

I agree with ex10 THANK YOU Topper for a major piece of the puzzle falling into place for me as well.

(pardon me a miniute while lights are flashing .... bells and sirence ringing)

This makes it easier to understand where I was ... why I could do the things that I did....why what I was proud of then brings me such shame today...sigh

It just doesn`t matter HOW much scripture that twi taught us...adherance to the doctrine tended to make us real boogers for the most part.

If you think about it.....The *nice* folks tended to the rebels...the ones who shielded people and protected them from the worst....they were the ones that truly cared.

The stricter one adhered to twi dogma, the more anal, legalistic and uncaring they eventually became.

[WordWolf]

Do those folks really believe that God is so impotent and non-powerful that he was limited to vee pee's outfit???

YES.

They say that God was effectively powerless for 2000 years between the

original Apostles and 1942, remember.

If that's true, they have a god that's not particularly clever, nor

particularly powerful.

[WordWolf]

I gotta try to say this right, so forgive me if I stumble:

His ministry made it ok to not care about people. Not really.

The love of God was extended only if you were "right on"-the defintion of which became a political distinction.

If you were hurt, if you were ill, if you stumbled in any way, then you were either possessed or an unbelieving believer.

There was no geniune care of the people who made a committment, with all their human frailities, to study and teach and give money, except perhaps at the lowest common denominator, the twig, or HC, or whatever they call it now.

"It's the Word, people, the Word!". That phrase seems to have made it ok to judge people harshly outside of whatever criteria was established.

And somewhere got perverted into people being used, abused, and persecuted.

Geez...I had co-workers that cared more about me when push came to shove than people in the ministry. And that's just sick.

Sorry,

I need to express exception to

"If you were hurt, if you were ill, if you stumbled in any way,

then you were either possessed or an unbelieving believer."

By this I mean,

I'm going to discuss the EXCEPTIONS.

If you had JUICE, you were an EXCEPTION and were fine.

vpw HIMSELF was an exception.

His addictions to sex, alcohol, and tobacco are still forgiveable

to this day-but DISCUSSING them is vile.

Not to mention his ILLNESS and DEATH from them,

which was ANATHEMA for us, but forbidden to even

discuss in detail for him.

lcm's FELONIES were buried, and when questions were eventually

raised, the questioners were attacked for "thinking evil".

lcm was an exception-once he ascended the throne.

Another man who was an exception was a known pedophile who

was moved around rather than kicked out and thrown to the

police, and his FELONIES were covered up, even to the point

of committing the felonies of "Breaking and Entering" in an

attempt to remove evidence that was to be given to the police.

That's called "aiding and abetting in the commission of a felony",

and-guess what? THAT's a felony TOO.

Of course, the staff can't be criticized for slander and

defamation of character and libel-from when they went on record

destroying the reputation of Christians who got fed up and

left, or looked like they were going to go to the police.

After all, they were "only following orders", and

"God will cover."

Not entirely dissimilar to Kurt Waldheim and Dr Mengele's

defenses, I hear...

Edited April 13, 2006 by WordWolf

[templelady]

Just wondering why you think one has to offset the other? Why can't each be what they are and stand or not, on their own merit?

They stand on their own merit UNLESS one is trying to ascertain if a person or situation is good or bad, then the evaluation of was there more good than bad comes into play.

This thread is for the purpose of evaluating if VPW"s sins outweighed any good he might have done-therefore the subject of offsetting comes into play

[rhino]

Eloheim's Elite

Best of the Best

Probably lots of other phrases to show twi folks were better ... and HQ was the mountaintop ...

I'm trying to remember when humanitarian type things came down from the place we sent ALL the money. It was more like the twiggies were there to admire and adore and support the "major leaguers" at HQ. The elite were there to tell you how to become as good as they were... I s'pose that meant they should believe for someone to send donations to support them like the good folks at HQ were supported.

You might say twiggies did "believe" for support and twi received the money to help (from those twiggies' areas), but some folks at HQ didn't just have their foot on the hose, they had tapped in to the hose for themselves and they are still sucking from it.

Or something like that ... it's always fun to come up with more analogies to discredit those egomaniancs. :)

[Goey]

This thread is for the purpose of evaluating if VPW"s sins outweighed any good he might have done-therefore the subject of offsetting comes into play

It seems to me that it is more about what the opinions of GSer's are concerning VPW -- specifically what they believe concerning VPW's behavior (sins) and how it may or may not have affected his ministy, teachings, etc.

Intended I suspect, to show fairly, what GSers really believe -- as opposed to what some GS detractors/VPW fans say they believe.

[templelady]

Goey :)

[rhino]

I forgot about the teaching of the prophet that was "crookeder than a dog's hind leg" .. (Amos?)

Anyway, vp had to be sure to get that in there as foundational to understanding his ministry ...