Remember the childhood puzzles called "What's wrong with this picture?" You'd look at an "ordinary" scene for things that don't make sense, and soon you'd find all kinds of craziness. With a little focused attention, you see there's nothing ordinary about that picture, despite first impressions or appearances from a distance.
I wouldn't call him "gay" exactly. I'd call him "twisted."
He wasn't just vocally anti-gay. He was way over the top. He may have advocated violence against gays, though in away which couldn't quite be termed incitement. What's his problem, to feel the need to go that far, and in God's name of course? Whatever issues might be boiling beneath the surface, he was a blatant contradiction.
How many of his sermons (a.k.a. "teachings") were laced with anger, contempt and even hate toward one group or another? Usually several groups, and he didn't spare individuals either.
Yeah, there's "the love of God," "the renewed mind," in manifestation, right? He'd start and end his teachings with lipservice to love and grace, but their chewy caramel centers were always hostile and dark. Dark as hell.
It's not much of a leap to think that he and allan w. might saddle up and sneak off to Brokeback Mountain to stem the rose whenever they can get away. All those obvious contradictions usually spell hypocrisy on a deeper level, and then you just look to the things which capture the old boy's attention. Homos! Damn the homos. Damn, damn, damn... homos.
--
And then again, now he's a "trainer" at Bally's? Sitting with the guys who finished their workouts in the steam room in his little towel, or stretching out in the jacuzzi (talkin' sports), all those massages and rub downs he gets to give... uh, innocent enough, right? It's therapeutic. But one might ask, what's on his mind? Women? Sure. Right. No doubt.
Oh come on. This is ridiculous. Craig wasn't/isn't no homo-sex-ual. The psycho babble here is out of control. Craig became alot of terrible things, but he isn't a queer dude. Craig came from rural Oklahoma with a "Muskogee-ish" mind set, and homosexuality isn't looked upon with much favor there. And biblically, since there is so much evidence agin it, he siezed on it knowing that it would be a good rallying point to "re-group the troops" after the shattering of his "Presidentiality" because of Chris Geer's assault on Way leadership. And so, he picked a salacious subject, got the old witch hunt going, provided salacious details on the disgusting aspects of gay sex (you remember The Way Mag article that included details like; "The average homosexual male ingests so many pounds of fecal matter...yada yada), and got all of the remaining faithful on a bandwagon witch hunt. And it worked, but only for awhile. Many here were on that bandwagon, so you know what it was like. Think of it. This makes far more sense than deciding that this is a "reverse psychology" conclusion where the vehemence against it was actually a "cover for his own homosexuality". There is an old saying; "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck." Craig actually spoke out against homosexuality because he actually didn't like it because he was not a homosexual. Call it homophobia or whatever, but I don't think he had a "penchant for penis". Now, does this make me a "Martindale apologist?" I hardly think so. Craig became wicked to the core, but I don't think he was a "poof in manly clothing."
I don't think he is gay. Surely there are a ton of reasons to be pi$$ed at LCM, but to invent this allegation against a guy obsessed with wimp is ridiculous, in my own not so humble opinion. Things happened the way they happened, not the way we invent them after the fact...
I guess though, if one is still really pi$$ed at him for his evil, it would be a good way to insult him and "get him back" since he detests homosexuality so much, should he ever come across this thread. But, I am interested in facts, not speculation. Now, if there are any guys out there who had a sexual encounter with LCM, and reported it here, I would reconsider my opinion on this subject. Come on guys, any of you do the "rump ranger thing" with him? Come on out! The womanizing is proof positive, the other is just unfounded, salacious, and scandalous speculation, in my (once again), not so humble opinion...
Beautiful pics..the old bird is a strong one...one day we can rest..in the meantime here is a database of pics from my trip with a fellow Canadian believer in 2002, in NS, Cape Breton Island...THis is a trip where we had a moose leap over our BMW as we were coasting on the coast. I know you love water and boats.
Ok, ok...So I started this thread with tongue in cheek...
...
...But...I certainly don't eliminate the possibility that Martinfail had these tendencies. I mean, scheesch...he certainly felt "threatened" by homosexuals...and it's true..we will never know for sure...unless someone steps forward and admits an encounter with him...
Didn't he end the wow program because of his homo hunt?...even as he ended the roa because some teenagers were "discovering" their sexuality in the pup tents?
Seems that, for a guy who was so sexually promiscious himself, he went out of his way to trash twi using "sinful" sexual activities for an excuse....makes ya wonder...the guy WAS twisted.
yes, he did end the way desciples from going that year...talkin about people ready go to mode, they were deeply disappointed. I walked around with a friend for a hr at the roa cause he was so deflated and bewildered..
Doubtful he was a homosexual. The gay stance that if one is truly against homosexuals then they must be homosexual themselves is perhaps a self defense mechanism for gays to get back at them, meaning "outing" those people to hurt them right back, even though there was nothing to "out".
A lot of guys hate gays because them are repulsed by them. Nothing more to say about it. There are also guys that are effeminate that are straight. Face it, if a straight guy says he can't stand gays, then he may be saying that because...he can't stand gays.
Seems to me what touched this off was the republishing for the average twiggy a little pamphlet that had Dr's name on it. What was it called? I forget but the tag line was "A Prolegomenon on Christian Ethics" VP sure loved those $5 words. Originally it was only for the Corps to have, but LCM seemed to want every one to read it. It dealt with tithing and homosexuality and I forget what else. But it became standard reading for those wanting to have the present truth (that's so Orwellian).
They remastered AOTS and LCM showcased it at the AC in '91 doing his own live commentary, he spead it on thick when it came to homosexuality. He (pardon the pun) crusified the trinity as being the window through which homo spirits gain access. Blah blah blah.
It was all very theatrical and very much over the top as I recall, but as the weeks and the months went on. We began to hear more and more about it. A Wow team leader was booted off the field the year I was out wow, he was one of our branch coordinators in VA. I saw him at the ROA in '93 he looked crushed. Then at ROA '94 LCM cancelled the wow program because of to many homos signing up for wow. What ever the real problem was I can bet it wasn't the little people who were being kicked in the head.
If the top leaders in TWI could get away with killing the first born male children to insure their security at the top they'd probly do it. But the best they can muster is gay bashing, book burning, and hate mongering; all they need is a little genecide and they'd be right up there with the Nazi's
Doubtful he was a homosexual. The gay stance that if one is truly against homosexuals then they must be homosexual themselves is perhaps a self defense mechanism for gays to get back at them, meaning "outing" those people to hurt them right back, even though there was nothing to "out".
It's not a "gay stance," Eagle, or simplistic psychobabble. There is a difference between strongly disappoving of homosexuality and relentlessly persecuting it, railing against it, crusading against it. That sort of obsessiveness raises the eyebrows of anybody who's ever observed human nature and taken a few notes along the way.
A lot of guys hate gays because them are repulsed by them. Nothing more to say about it. There are also guys that are effeminate that are straight. Face it, if a straight guy says he can't stand gays, then he may be saying that because...he can't stand gays.
Being repulsed isn't the same as hating, it's a reflex, something that takes place deep below the surface. It's kind of instinctive. But hating takes you to some other place deeper within yourself. It requires a conscious dedication of oneself to hostility. You pay a price for that, hate takes its toll.
Sometimes the price is justified, or justifiable, by the circumstances. Sometimes the price is hard to justify, from surface appearances. It turns out they hate themselves, and project that hate upon those most like them. Sorry if this is hard to grasp, but it changes nothing.
Is Craig a homosexual? Dunno, but quite possibly. Is he twisted? Damn straight.
-------------
hey interesting post, seth
wow that's quite telling
but how could eve have lesbian sex ? wasn't adam the only one around ?
She looked in the mirror while she, uh, pleasured herself. Somehow I don't think Adam would have minded.
Edited by satori001
I've seen the syllabus for that crazy class, though I left before I took it myself, excathedra. LCM propounds that the serpent changed himself/itself into a beautiful woman, and that is how the serpent tempted Eve.
Weird stuff.
Just for the record, I don't think he was a homosexual either ... just a very twisted, egocentric heterosexual with manic-depressive tendencies.
Given craig's vehemence and over the top inability to talk about anything else....I mean, come on, those of us who where there....how many times do you remember him talking about something and then - out of left field - we're listening to some tirade about homosexuality?? It was on his mind constantly and that's all he talked about, especially in the last few years.....
I think it wasn't a mere dislike for that lifestyle and I think it goes much deeper than his wife being a lesbian....I think the man was psychotic, but I also think there's more to that specific hatred than just the fact that others were gay.
I know men who are "uncomfortable" around it and I know men who speak disparaging of it, but craig is the only man, outside of my ex-husband, who I heard mention it with such vehemence. Craig was ALWAYS talking about it.....ALWAYS.....I'll bet the last 100 STS where he taught have some mention of it on them. God knows EVERY class does.....
I'm planning to ask my therapist for documentation of studies about this, but in the meantime, I can tell you of first-hand accounts of my gay co-workers and their experiences with lots and lots of men who are publicly vehemently against homosexuality, but then found later in the bathroom at a gay bar wanting some "action" or contacting them through dating websites, etc....there's even a series of websites for "straight" men who want to hook up with a "gay" lover....
I don't know about craig personally, but I'm just saying his actions seem to indicate something more than mere hatred of a different lifestyle.
Did anybody but me notice that the 'Athlete's of the Spirit' outfit that LCM wore (and that stupid, lifesized puppet thing that represented the AOS at the Rock) were the striped colors of Gay-Pride? You know...the Gay Pride Rainbow thing? You remember that spandex outfit...white with rainbow colors running down the side.
LOL...
It would be funny if it weren't so ironic.
Actually, the biggest problem I had with LCM being anti-gay is that he did it with such PURE HATRED.
What happened to loving people until they came to a knowledge of the Word? What happened to loving people into living? What happened to hating the sin but loving the sinner? LCM never got that, did he? He just HATED.
And I have a real problem with that.
When my ex was taking my kids to fellowships (after I left TWI...and after LCM went over the top) I became very disturbed that what they were learning in TWI was HATE. I had to talk with them often about how wrong it was that he was teaching people to hate others and that it was wrong to hate. You hate what people do maybe, but you can never quit loving people if you want to help them.
Still don't buy that argument at all, that people with an extreme hate for gays may be gay themselves. It's almost like saying blacks who have an extreme hate for Nazis are...Nazis themselves.
I don't agree with that kind of thinking either Eagle. I could see a closet homo speaking against it publicly as a cover, sure. But if they were doing that it would be phony, known only to the guy doing it and to God or the guy's gay partner/s.
But I do believe as some have pointed out here, Craig truly did/does hate homosexuals.
If he isn't a closet homo, then I can see him being one of those guys beating the crap out of somone just because they were..... or a lesbian, for that matter.... his absolute hatred of the homosexual community is downright scary when one can see it from outside the walls of TWI.
Have any of you who weren't involved during his explosive years ever heard any of his tirades on the gay community? Just curious.
I was around--he did "allegedly" say that homos were worthy of death. IMHO I believe he was honestly disappointed we were not living in the OT law time period since the homos would then qualify to be stoned to death. I also wondered what happened to deliverance being available?
Still don't buy that argument at all, that people with an extreme hate for gays (1) may be gay themselves. It's almost like saying blacks who have an extreme hate for Nazis (2) are...Nazis themselves.
No, don't buy it.
Sorry.
No apology necessary Eagle. I notice you change the operative verb from "may" to "are" in your comparison. (See 1 & 2 above) It reflects a little bias, when you think about it, which is to say, a little reluctance to make an honest comparison.
Blacks? I think you have blacks confused with Jews, or is it Nazis with white supremacists? But if you want to compare Farakhan's Nation of Islam to Nazis or white supremacists, it might not be too far of a stretch. If you look at a famous Nazi hunter like Simon Wiesenthal, you won't find a sputtering, goose-stepping buffoon, you'll find a soldier. Did Wiesenthal hate Nazis? Not the same way Craig "hated homos."
Whatever "gay" means, there must be a broad spectrum of homosexual behavior not typically called "gay." That is where, beyond the pink, we might find Martindale, if one was to look. Just a hunch.
I don't know whether he is/was gay or not... and I really don't know if he does/did hate homosexuals... nor do I care about either because I think when it comes to LCM, once you take away all of the hot air, all of the big talk... get him on the outside, alone... could be a whole different story... I'm not so sure he was stupid enough to actually believe a lot of the krap he was spewing... but he may have been and he did think we were...
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satori001
Remember the childhood puzzles called "What's wrong with this picture?" You'd look at an "ordinary" scene for things that don't make sense, and soon you'd find all kinds of craziness. With a little focused attention, you see there's nothing ordinary about that picture, despite first impressions or appearances from a distance.
I wouldn't call him "gay" exactly. I'd call him "twisted."
He wasn't just vocally anti-gay. He was way over the top. He may have advocated violence against gays, though in away which couldn't quite be termed incitement. What's his problem, to feel the need to go that far, and in God's name of course? Whatever issues might be boiling beneath the surface, he was a blatant contradiction.
How many of his sermons (a.k.a. "teachings") were laced with anger, contempt and even hate toward one group or another? Usually several groups, and he didn't spare individuals either.
Yeah, there's "the love of God," "the renewed mind," in manifestation, right? He'd start and end his teachings with lipservice to love and grace, but their chewy caramel centers were always hostile and dark. Dark as hell.
It's not much of a leap to think that he and allan w. might saddle up and sneak off to Brokeback Mountain to stem the rose whenever they can get away. All those obvious contradictions usually spell hypocrisy on a deeper level, and then you just look to the things which capture the old boy's attention. Homos! Damn the homos. Damn, damn, damn... homos.
--
And then again, now he's a "trainer" at Bally's? Sitting with the guys who finished their workouts in the steam room in his little towel, or stretching out in the jacuzzi (talkin' sports), all those massages and rub downs he gets to give... uh, innocent enough, right? It's therapeutic. But one might ask, what's on his mind? Women? Sure. Right. No doubt.
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J0nny Ling0
Oh come on. This is ridiculous. Craig wasn't/isn't no homo-sex-ual. The psycho babble here is out of control. Craig became alot of terrible things, but he isn't a queer dude. Craig came from rural Oklahoma with a "Muskogee-ish" mind set, and homosexuality isn't looked upon with much favor there. And biblically, since there is so much evidence agin it, he siezed on it knowing that it would be a good rallying point to "re-group the troops" after the shattering of his "Presidentiality" because of Chris Geer's assault on Way leadership. And so, he picked a salacious subject, got the old witch hunt going, provided salacious details on the disgusting aspects of gay sex (you remember The Way Mag article that included details like; "The average homosexual male ingests so many pounds of fecal matter...yada yada), and got all of the remaining faithful on a bandwagon witch hunt. And it worked, but only for awhile. Many here were on that bandwagon, so you know what it was like. Think of it. This makes far more sense than deciding that this is a "reverse psychology" conclusion where the vehemence against it was actually a "cover for his own homosexuality". There is an old saying; "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck." Craig actually spoke out against homosexuality because he actually didn't like it because he was not a homosexual. Call it homophobia or whatever, but I don't think he had a "penchant for penis". Now, does this make me a "Martindale apologist?" I hardly think so. Craig became wicked to the core, but I don't think he was a "poof in manly clothing."
I don't think he is gay. Surely there are a ton of reasons to be pi$$ed at LCM, but to invent this allegation against a guy obsessed with wimp is ridiculous, in my own not so humble opinion. Things happened the way they happened, not the way we invent them after the fact...
I guess though, if one is still really pi$$ed at him for his evil, it would be a good way to insult him and "get him back" since he detests homosexuality so much, should he ever come across this thread. But, I am interested in facts, not speculation. Now, if there are any guys out there who had a sexual encounter with LCM, and reported it here, I would reconsider my opinion on this subject. Come on guys, any of you do the "rump ranger thing" with him? Come on out! The womanizing is proof positive, the other is just unfounded, salacious, and scandalous speculation, in my (once again), not so humble opinion...
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likeaneagle
JL
You have a way of taking extremes and putting things back into a logical order. I have great respect for you...In the long it could help many here..
Bandwagons produce much more confusion and strife and often leads to more propagating of unhealthy processes....
Paw this mans should be rewarded with a Black Angus Steak and all the fixings!!
thxs
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J0nny Ling0
Like an Eagle:
Thanks so much, and bring on the steak dinner! Whoo hoo! And here is a nice local photo for you
http://www.pbase.com/ronhorn/image/53292039
I tried to post the image, but, I was unable to, being technologically challenged and all. Maybe you can post it for all to see. Great photo!
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likeaneagle
THanks Johnny-
Beautiful pics..the old bird is a strong one...one day we can rest..in the meantime here is a database of pics from my trip with a fellow Canadian believer in 2002, in NS, Cape Breton Island...THis is a trip where we had a moose leap over our BMW as we were coasting on the coast. I know you love water and boats.
http://www.pbase.com/dancomeau/nova_scotia_summer_2002
I saw huge school of Humpbacks there..it was heavenly..
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J0nny Ling0
Beautiful photos! Thanks Eagle...
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GrouchoMarxJr
Ok, ok...So I started this thread with tongue in cheek...
...
...But...I certainly don't eliminate the possibility that Martinfail had these tendencies. I mean, scheesch...he certainly felt "threatened" by homosexuals...and it's true..we will never know for sure...unless someone steps forward and admits an encounter with him...
Didn't he end the wow program because of his homo hunt?...even as he ended the roa because some teenagers were "discovering" their sexuality in the pup tents?
Seems that, for a guy who was so sexually promiscious himself, he went out of his way to trash twi using "sinful" sexual activities for an excuse....makes ya wonder...the guy WAS twisted.
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houseisarockin
If this were a poll and yes and no were options I'd choose no.
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likeaneagle
yes, he did end the way desciples from going that year...talkin about people ready go to mode, they were deeply disappointed. I walked around with a friend for a hr at the roa cause he was so deflated and bewildered..
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Eagle
Doubtful he was a homosexual. The gay stance that if one is truly against homosexuals then they must be homosexual themselves is perhaps a self defense mechanism for gays to get back at them, meaning "outing" those people to hurt them right back, even though there was nothing to "out".
A lot of guys hate gays because them are repulsed by them. Nothing more to say about it. There are also guys that are effeminate that are straight. Face it, if a straight guy says he can't stand gays, then he may be saying that because...he can't stand gays.
Eagle
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Seth R.
Seems to me what touched this off was the republishing for the average twiggy a little pamphlet that had Dr's name on it. What was it called? I forget but the tag line was "A Prolegomenon on Christian Ethics" VP sure loved those $5 words. Originally it was only for the Corps to have, but LCM seemed to want every one to read it. It dealt with tithing and homosexuality and I forget what else. But it became standard reading for those wanting to have the present truth (that's so Orwellian).
They remastered AOTS and LCM showcased it at the AC in '91 doing his own live commentary, he spead it on thick when it came to homosexuality. He (pardon the pun) crusified the trinity as being the window through which homo spirits gain access. Blah blah blah.
It was all very theatrical and very much over the top as I recall, but as the weeks and the months went on. We began to hear more and more about it. A Wow team leader was booted off the field the year I was out wow, he was one of our branch coordinators in VA. I saw him at the ROA in '93 he looked crushed. Then at ROA '94 LCM cancelled the wow program because of to many homos signing up for wow. What ever the real problem was I can bet it wasn't the little people who were being kicked in the head.
If the top leaders in TWI could get away with killing the first born male children to insure their security at the top they'd probly do it. But the best they can muster is gay bashing, book burning, and hate mongering; all they need is a little genecide and they'd be right up there with the Nazi's
Seth
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excathedra
hey interesting post, seth
wow that's quite tellingbut how could eve have lesbian sex ? wasn't adam the only one around ?
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satori001
-------------
She looked in the mirror while she, uh, pleasured herself. Somehow I don't think Adam would have minded. Edited by satori001Link to comment
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excathedra
they didn't have mirrors back then
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satori001
Well then she obviously watched herself on a video monitor.
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DogLover
I've seen the syllabus for that crazy class, though I left before I took it myself, excathedra. LCM propounds that the serpent changed himself/itself into a beautiful woman, and that is how the serpent tempted Eve.
Weird stuff.
Just for the record, I don't think he was a homosexual either ... just a very twisted, egocentric heterosexual with manic-depressive tendencies.
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Belle
Given craig's vehemence and over the top inability to talk about anything else....I mean, come on, those of us who where there....how many times do you remember him talking about something and then - out of left field - we're listening to some tirade about homosexuality?? It was on his mind constantly and that's all he talked about, especially in the last few years.....
I think it wasn't a mere dislike for that lifestyle and I think it goes much deeper than his wife being a lesbian....I think the man was psychotic, but I also think there's more to that specific hatred than just the fact that others were gay.
I know men who are "uncomfortable" around it and I know men who speak disparaging of it, but craig is the only man, outside of my ex-husband, who I heard mention it with such vehemence. Craig was ALWAYS talking about it.....ALWAYS.....I'll bet the last 100 STS where he taught have some mention of it on them. God knows EVERY class does.....
I'm planning to ask my therapist for documentation of studies about this, but in the meantime, I can tell you of first-hand accounts of my gay co-workers and their experiences with lots and lots of men who are publicly vehemently against homosexuality, but then found later in the bathroom at a gay bar wanting some "action" or contacting them through dating websites, etc....there's even a series of websites for "straight" men who want to hook up with a "gay" lover....
I don't know about craig personally, but I'm just saying his actions seem to indicate something more than mere hatred of a different lifestyle.
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Robes
Just for fun...
Did anybody but me notice that the 'Athlete's of the Spirit' outfit that LCM wore (and that stupid, lifesized puppet thing that represented the AOS at the Rock) were the striped colors of Gay-Pride? You know...the Gay Pride Rainbow thing? You remember that spandex outfit...white with rainbow colors running down the side.
LOL...
It would be funny if it weren't so ironic.
Actually, the biggest problem I had with LCM being anti-gay is that he did it with such PURE HATRED.
What happened to loving people until they came to a knowledge of the Word? What happened to loving people into living? What happened to hating the sin but loving the sinner? LCM never got that, did he? He just HATED.
And I have a real problem with that.
When my ex was taking my kids to fellowships (after I left TWI...and after LCM went over the top) I became very disturbed that what they were learning in TWI was HATE. I had to talk with them often about how wrong it was that he was teaching people to hate others and that it was wrong to hate. You hate what people do maybe, but you can never quit loving people if you want to help them.
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Eagle
satori001:
Still don't buy that argument at all, that people with an extreme hate for gays may be gay themselves. It's almost like saying blacks who have an extreme hate for Nazis are...Nazis themselves.
No, don't buy it.
Sorry.
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J0nny Ling0
I don't agree with that kind of thinking either Eagle. I could see a closet homo speaking against it publicly as a cover, sure. But if they were doing that it would be phony, known only to the guy doing it and to God or the guy's gay partner/s.
But I do believe as some have pointed out here, Craig truly did/does hate homosexuals.
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Belle
If he isn't a closet homo, then I can see him being one of those guys beating the crap out of somone just because they were..... or a lesbian, for that matter.... his absolute hatred of the homosexual community is downright scary when one can see it from outside the walls of TWI.
Have any of you who weren't involved during his explosive years ever heard any of his tirades on the gay community? Just curious.
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penguin
I was around--he did "allegedly" say that homos were worthy of death. IMHO I believe he was honestly disappointed we were not living in the OT law time period since the homos would then qualify to be stoned to death. I also wondered what happened to deliverance being available?
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satori001
No apology necessary Eagle. I notice you change the operative verb from "may" to "are" in your comparison. (See 1 & 2 above) It reflects a little bias, when you think about it, which is to say, a little reluctance to make an honest comparison.
Blacks? I think you have blacks confused with Jews, or is it Nazis with white supremacists? But if you want to compare Farakhan's Nation of Islam to Nazis or white supremacists, it might not be too far of a stretch. If you look at a famous Nazi hunter like Simon Wiesenthal, you won't find a sputtering, goose-stepping buffoon, you'll find a soldier. Did Wiesenthal hate Nazis? Not the same way Craig "hated homos."
Whatever "gay" means, there must be a broad spectrum of homosexual behavior not typically called "gay." That is where, beyond the pink, we might find Martindale, if one was to look. Just a hunch.
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Tom Strange
I don't know whether he is/was gay or not... and I really don't know if he does/did hate homosexuals... nor do I care about either because I think when it comes to LCM, once you take away all of the hot air, all of the big talk... get him on the outside, alone... could be a whole different story... I'm not so sure he was stupid enough to actually believe a lot of the krap he was spewing... but he may have been and he did think we were...
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