Not me (I don't bother trying to fit into "orthodox" churches), but my wife has tried to find a local church, and the trinity always rears its ugly head. I think she feels like Lot, turturing her soul in the gates of Sodom.
The Trinity has always been a non-issue for me. I have never believed it and I really don't care who does.
Nothing hinges on it----if it were so important, don't you think that Jesus would have stressed that he was NOT GOD??? He didn't----but he definitely stressed that we were to live the law of love, and teach all nations that he was THE saviour of men.
What has been a real problem is that VPW made the Trinity an issue; that if we believed that Jesus was God, then our salvation was for naught----in fact, we couldn't be really saved. Says who??
If God thought the Trinity was so critical one way or the other, why would he allow the devil to make it so hard for his children to find out the truth?? Does this make the devil stronger than God?
God made sure that holy men spake about what we needed for life and godliness. He made sure that Paul wrote in Timothy what was expected of a leader of the church. And yet, man has allowed all the pedophilia of the Catholic priests to be overlooked for years; in other denominations, there are adulterous men representing our Lord from the pulpit, but no one seems to these a glaring issue.
I always go back to the idea of God as a loving parent. Many of us understand that because we are parents ourselves. We do every positive thing to ensure our children's success. If Trinity was a big deal to know about, why wouldn't God reveal this all over the bible---either figuratively or literally??
I'm sure there are those who disagree---so be it. When I hear the Trinity taught, it's just another aspect that I don't believe---just like I don't believe in God calling upon "sister death" [yep, heard that one at a funeral once] the "laws" of tithing, of believing, needs and wants parallel, yada, yada.....!
"Love God first, and your neighbor as yourself. On these two hang all the law." "Jesus---there is no other name upon which to be saved." God made this simple enough for the simplest to understand.
I'd like to respectfully submit that part of the problem may be ours. If we hold beliefs that are unorthodox or heterodox, we can expect the occasional person to overreact. We need to take the initiative in striving for unity.
When you have a problem like this come up, first thing to do is talk with the offending party. Let them grill you, if they find it necssary, just to ease their mind. Usually, reassuring the person that you believe Jesus to be the divine, only begotten Son of God will set them at ease. (If that's what you believe).
We had this blow up soon after exiting wayworld, at the private school our son was attending. Back then, I still believed a fair bit of Wierdwillia. We sat down with the principal and explained where we were coming from. No problems after that.
Quote: "What has been a real problem is that VPW made the Trinity an issue; that if we believed that Jesus was God, then our salvation was for naught----in fact, we couldn't be really saved. Says who??
I agree with you, but these people I am dealing with believe this in the reverse.
My husband and I have not once mentioned the trinity in the 12 months at this church because we believe there are more important issues such as getting to know the people we will be spending eternity with, and learning to love each other with the love of God no matter where people are at.
Jesus Christ didn't hang out with holier than thou religious nuts, he hung out with people who were publicans and sinners etc.
I am probably getting what I deserve anyway, it is a good lesson for me. I know I played the part of a judgemental, high and mighty pharasee during my time in the TWI under the not so reverend Martindale's rule.
"When you have a problem like this come up, first thing to do is talk with the offending party. Let them grill you, if they find it necssary, just to ease their mind. Usually, reassuring the person that you believe Jesus to be the divine, only begotten Son of God will set them at ease. (If that's what you believe).
I have tried on numeros occasions to talk to the people involved to no avail. The youth leader seems only interested in "saving" my son and the other "youth" from me. It would be funny really if my son wasn't getting so hurt by it.
I even wrote them a letter very gracefully stating that I did not wish to cause contention etc. I gave him an article from the wikipedia encyclopedia concerning the debate over the non-trinitarian's status. I got no response to my letter.
Oh well, onwards and upwards, as they say. :)
Here is the wikipedia article:
Debate over Nontrinitarianism's Christian status
Although most nontrinitarians identify themselves as Christian, many trinitarians disagree. Their counter-claim is that the doctrine of the Trinity is so central to the Christian faith that to deny it is to embrace a "different gospel" and to set onesself against the Church's account of its own history and identity, inasmuch as the gospel concerns who Jesus Christ is and what he did. Non-trinitarians counter that theirs is the more historically orthodox position, since the doctrine of the trinity was not solidified until 325 CE, and thus it is not they who embraced a "different gospel". See also Great Apostasy. Others believe that the issue is not central, and a Christian can have one or the other belief without this affecting his or her position significantly.
Christianity is typically understood as tripartite Monotheism in its God-concept, although the theological and philosophical work needed to differentiate this from tritheism is significant. This difficulty is so great that non-Christians who make the attempt are often left with a view of Christianity as being a faith of tritheism or quadratheism when dealing with Roman Catholics and their focus on Mariology. This is not the case, when the Cappadocian Fathers developed the idea of Trinity, some scholars get the general sense that the developers of the trinity were themselves not entirely convinced of its truth. However, some framework was needed to reconcile the centrality of Jesus for the Christian experience with the figure of YHWH or "Abba" of which Jesus was a representative, the best option at that time was this trinity idea. In any discussion of early Christianity, it is important to remember that a small sect like Christianity needed to show itself as quantifiably different from that which came before and the surrounding culture in general. In order to accomplish this, a standard theology was needed. With this theology, the group could define itself and rally around a central cause or figure. This made the faith strong, but after the faith grew beyond the danger of being destroyed by Rome, it also made the faith somewhat myopic when it came to dissenting views.
Although some denominations require their members to profess faith in the trinity, most mainline denominations have taken a "hands-off" policy on the subject of the trinity, realizing that since personal study and free thought have been encouraged for years, it is not surprising that some of the conclusions reached would be nontrinitarian. The recognition here is that the trinity is tool for pointing to a greater truth. In other words, Christianity has historically sought to look beyond its docrtines (see Apophasis) to the greater truth they are intended to address, IE God. It is not uncommon for a Methodist, Presbyterian, or Episcopalian to profess non-trinitarian views, even among the clergy. The response from the governing bodies of those denominations is usually neutral, so long as the disagreement is voiced in respect.
At times segments of Nicene Christianity reacted with ultimate severity toward nontrinitarian views. At other times, especially among Protestants, the same views have been accommodated. See the related section of the Unitarianism article for a more detailed discussion.
How nice! A religious zealot tries to hijack your son in the name of truth. As a parent, I'd be tempted to go beat his a**! If THAT is the charity way to handle such situations I'd find me a different church.
My family went to a Presbyterian church after TWI. They believed and taught the trinity. We just didn't bring it up. Neither did they other than occasionally during a sermon. We got along fine.
I worked in a warehouse for awhile and sat at a table in the break room that other Christians sat at. I made up my mind to not comment on both abortion and the trinity. Sometimes the subject of abortion came up. The trinity NEVER came up. I got along fine.
Hopefully, this was God showing you what kind of atmosphere was in that church NOW before something worse happened later.
"My family went to a Presbyterian church after TWI. They believed and taught the trinity. We just didn't bring it up. Neither did they other than occasionally during a sermon. We got along fine."
That was initially my theory Johniam. Guess it didn't work out this way at this church. Maybe I'll try that Presbyterian church down the road.
I posted some notes about selecting a religious group down in the doctrinal basement. Those notes have gotten some good feedback from folks, so I'd encourage you to read them. You can find them by clicking on this hyperlink here.
There are multiple different ways of dealing with a disagreement in a fundamental dogma. It sounds like this group handled their disagreement in a untactful and unchristian manner. Not that they should accept your (from their perspective) heterodox beliefs, but they could have done so in a far more constructive manner. For example, demonstrating the correctness of their beliefs through the use of scriptures.
But not all folks identifying themselves as Christians exemplify their beliefs through their actions.
As a trinitarian, please accept my assurances that not all of us are pharisees.
Has anyone else had this experience trying to fit into mainstream churches after leaving TWI?
I think many of us faced this same problem. Unfortunatly I see no solution in the future for this either.
I wonder why anyone would want to involved with a church where you had to hide your beliefs in secret anyway? Having this secret always in the background hanging over your head like a time bomb waiting to go off can't be a good environment for spiritual growth. The fact that we feel we must hide this secret means we already know in our heart that we will never interact on a honest one to one basis. What kind of relationship is that really? Sure we can pretend and dance around the issues for awhile but at some point it will rear it's ugly head and you will be back to square one. If the only way to fit into a church is to compromise your beliefs then one would have to ask themselves is this really how I want to live and is this the spiritual environment that I want my life to be in?
JWitt... why do you feel that "holding fast to the non-trinity" is crucial? I'm not saying that it is... but... could it be another 'veepeeism' that might need to be examined? I agree with what Rejoice said in that TWI made it 'a cornerstone tenet'... most of the time a person can make the Bible say whatever they want to through clever use of scripture... even in the case of JCING... TWI did it most of the time...
Try to throw off everything from the past and start with "Love God first and love thy neighbor as thyself." Try to start anew with only that as your base belief... maybe you'll get farther. Mine is an admittedly biased view but, I can't trust anything from TWI. Even though I've no doubt that there was 'truth' taught it's my contention that you have to sift through so much personal agenda and dogma and decide which it true and which isn't that it's easier to start anew.
I'd imagine it'd be tough to 'find a church home' that fits all of your criteria when some (most?) of that criteria comes from TWI. Love God, love thy neighbor as thyself. Go from there.
when you're looking... look for (and at) the love... that'll be the "right" church...
That is terrible that you all were treated this way. I would definitely be looking for another place to go where you will be welcomed no matter what you believe.
I'm not saying that it is... but... could it be another 'veepeeism' that might need to be examined?
Tom,
The unitarian POV (that Jesus is not God, and that the trinity isn't true) has been held to by various groups long before VeePee was a gleam in his daddy's eye.
The unitarian POV (that Jesus is not God, and that the trinity isn't true) has been held to by various groups long before VeePee was a gleam in his daddy's eye.
Just thought I'd let you know.
Oh... I know that... I was assuming that Jwitt picked it up to 'hold fast to' while in TWI is all... :)
For your information Evan, no, whether or not Jesus is God really doesn't bother me (as it is moot as far as I'm concerned), and yes, it really doesn't matter.
These points do bother a lot more traditional, orthodox believers than many of us 'heretics'; one orthodox individual here on this board whom you know (and with whom I have various scrapes with ) is but one classic example of such.
Maybe reminders of that uncomfortable fact is what is bothering you, perchance? :unsure: ... But what do I know.
I do see Mr. Strange's point tho', altho' there have been those who were in TWI (like ex-JWs, atheists, etc.) who didn't take the trinitarian argument seriously either before they got involved.
For me, listening to their pov and understanding that, a)it doesn't really matter in the end...because if it matters soooooo much as to divide, then it's no longer about God or Jesus but about arguing, b)most of the time (notice I said 'most' and not 'all') the question isn't about Jesus=God, but about the divine nature of Jesus, and, c)if anybody makes such a big deal out of the issue, then that person, no matter which side they fall on, is more concerned about dogma than about following the example of Jesus.
No matter where one stands on this question, if one stands so staunchly as to stir up strife, cause divisions and cause others of the body to be shunned, humiliated or in any other way castigated for not agreeing...well, then, that's a cult mindset. IMO.
And I would avoid participating in any group that accepts such a stance.
Thanks for your great responses. Unfortunately as I live in a different time zone (Australia) I was asleep in my bed when you were all busily typing away.
I have to go to work now, but I would love to reply to some of your posts when I get home tonight (my time).
Thanks again guys it helps to talk to people who know where I'm coming from and don't think I'm from the planet Mars or something.
When my beliefs vary from a lot of other people. In fact I'm not even considered the strange one.
What I tell people is that if you study the bible you will have beliefs that are different than other people. What I get out of it is a little differant then the next person.
Watch out for the person that blindly believes whatever is spouted out from behind a pulpit or from some great man of God. I believe that God gave me a mind to use.
I know how you feel. I grew up in the Presbitarian church.
But i never really belived in JC being God, guess that's what hooked me into joining TWI.
I never really ran into very many people that screamed and yelled at me not beliving in the trinity (except when i lived in Emporia, Kansas). There was this one 'NUT Case' that was a REAL thorn in the side cause i was in TWI that kept him going over the deep end just cause i WAS a member and didn't respond like he wanted me to on his ranting and ravings. I just remained calm and let him blow off steam. after a while he just learned that i wasn't going to drop to his level and he finally quit.
Sorry you have had a bad experience at that church. I have been going to a non-denominational church for a few months and enjoy it a lot. I met the pastor pretty quickly after my first visit and talked with him regarding the trinity. (I have talked with an elder there too about it.) Both went along with believing in Jesus is the criteria to be born again and that people have different beliefs. Granted this pastor has several people in his church that used to be in twi. (Which I didnt know until after I met the pastor and he told me he was familiar with twi.) Several ex twiers are in varying degrees of counselling and leadership roles--and I know that some of them still don't believe in the trinity.
I think a lot of us here at the cafe have learned that you need to look for the fruit in people's lives--which would definitely include what you were trying to focus on--but maybe that church doesnt.
I think a lot of us here at the cafe have learned that you need to look for the fruit in people's lives--which would definitely include what you were trying to focus on--but maybe that church doesnt.
I just had the minister from the church come for a visit to "smooth things over". He asked what he could do to "work things out" so that we would stay at the church. So it seems like an olive branch has been offered which is a good sign.
I asked if he would get together with myself, my husband and the youth leader in question to see if we can come to an amicable co-existance given our differences. He agreed to that, so maybe we don't need to go church hunting afterall.
Recommended Posts
GeorgeStGeorge
Not me (I don't bother trying to fit into "orthodox" churches), but my wife has tried to find a local church, and the trinity always rears its ugly head. I think she feels like Lot, turturing her soul in the gates of Sodom.
George
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rejoice
The Trinity has always been a non-issue for me. I have never believed it and I really don't care who does.
Nothing hinges on it----if it were so important, don't you think that Jesus would have stressed that he was NOT GOD??? He didn't----but he definitely stressed that we were to live the law of love, and teach all nations that he was THE saviour of men.
What has been a real problem is that VPW made the Trinity an issue; that if we believed that Jesus was God, then our salvation was for naught----in fact, we couldn't be really saved. Says who??
If God thought the Trinity was so critical one way or the other, why would he allow the devil to make it so hard for his children to find out the truth?? Does this make the devil stronger than God?
God made sure that holy men spake about what we needed for life and godliness. He made sure that Paul wrote in Timothy what was expected of a leader of the church. And yet, man has allowed all the pedophilia of the Catholic priests to be overlooked for years; in other denominations, there are adulterous men representing our Lord from the pulpit, but no one seems to these a glaring issue.
I always go back to the idea of God as a loving parent. Many of us understand that because we are parents ourselves. We do every positive thing to ensure our children's success. If Trinity was a big deal to know about, why wouldn't God reveal this all over the bible---either figuratively or literally??
I'm sure there are those who disagree---so be it. When I hear the Trinity taught, it's just another aspect that I don't believe---just like I don't believe in God calling upon "sister death" [yep, heard that one at a funeral once] the "laws" of tithing, of believing, needs and wants parallel, yada, yada.....!
"Love God first, and your neighbor as yourself. On these two hang all the law." "Jesus---there is no other name upon which to be saved." God made this simple enough for the simplest to understand.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheEvan
I'd like to respectfully submit that part of the problem may be ours. If we hold beliefs that are unorthodox or heterodox, we can expect the occasional person to overreact. We need to take the initiative in striving for unity.
When you have a problem like this come up, first thing to do is talk with the offending party. Let them grill you, if they find it necssary, just to ease their mind. Usually, reassuring the person that you believe Jesus to be the divine, only begotten Son of God will set them at ease. (If that's what you believe).
We had this blow up soon after exiting wayworld, at the private school our son was attending. Back then, I still believed a fair bit of Wierdwillia. We sat down with the principal and explained where we were coming from. No problems after that.
Communicate and give them a chance...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JWitt
LOL George.
Rejoice
Quote: "What has been a real problem is that VPW made the Trinity an issue; that if we believed that Jesus was God, then our salvation was for naught----in fact, we couldn't be really saved. Says who??
I agree with you, but these people I am dealing with believe this in the reverse.
My husband and I have not once mentioned the trinity in the 12 months at this church because we believe there are more important issues such as getting to know the people we will be spending eternity with, and learning to love each other with the love of God no matter where people are at.
Jesus Christ didn't hang out with holier than thou religious nuts, he hung out with people who were publicans and sinners etc.
I am probably getting what I deserve anyway, it is a good lesson for me. I know I played the part of a judgemental, high and mighty pharasee during my time in the TWI under the not so reverend Martindale's rule.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JWitt
Quote from The Evan
"When you have a problem like this come up, first thing to do is talk with the offending party. Let them grill you, if they find it necssary, just to ease their mind. Usually, reassuring the person that you believe Jesus to be the divine, only begotten Son of God will set them at ease. (If that's what you believe).
I have tried on numeros occasions to talk to the people involved to no avail. The youth leader seems only interested in "saving" my son and the other "youth" from me. It would be funny really if my son wasn't getting so hurt by it.
I even wrote them a letter very gracefully stating that I did not wish to cause contention etc. I gave him an article from the wikipedia encyclopedia concerning the debate over the non-trinitarian's status. I got no response to my letter.
Oh well, onwards and upwards, as they say. :)
Here is the wikipedia article:
Debate over Nontrinitarianism's Christian status
Although most nontrinitarians identify themselves as Christian, many trinitarians disagree. Their counter-claim is that the doctrine of the Trinity is so central to the Christian faith that to deny it is to embrace a "different gospel" and to set onesself against the Church's account of its own history and identity, inasmuch as the gospel concerns who Jesus Christ is and what he did. Non-trinitarians counter that theirs is the more historically orthodox position, since the doctrine of the trinity was not solidified until 325 CE, and thus it is not they who embraced a "different gospel". See also Great Apostasy. Others believe that the issue is not central, and a Christian can have one or the other belief without this affecting his or her position significantly.
Christianity is typically understood as tripartite Monotheism in its God-concept, although the theological and philosophical work needed to differentiate this from tritheism is significant. This difficulty is so great that non-Christians who make the attempt are often left with a view of Christianity as being a faith of tritheism or quadratheism when dealing with Roman Catholics and their focus on Mariology. This is not the case, when the Cappadocian Fathers developed the idea of Trinity, some scholars get the general sense that the developers of the trinity were themselves not entirely convinced of its truth. However, some framework was needed to reconcile the centrality of Jesus for the Christian experience with the figure of YHWH or "Abba" of which Jesus was a representative, the best option at that time was this trinity idea. In any discussion of early Christianity, it is important to remember that a small sect like Christianity needed to show itself as quantifiably different from that which came before and the surrounding culture in general. In order to accomplish this, a standard theology was needed. With this theology, the group could define itself and rally around a central cause or figure. This made the faith strong, but after the faith grew beyond the danger of being destroyed by Rome, it also made the faith somewhat myopic when it came to dissenting views.
Although some denominations require their members to profess faith in the trinity, most mainline denominations have taken a "hands-off" policy on the subject of the trinity, realizing that since personal study and free thought have been encouraged for years, it is not surprising that some of the conclusions reached would be nontrinitarian. The recognition here is that the trinity is tool for pointing to a greater truth. In other words, Christianity has historically sought to look beyond its docrtines (see Apophasis) to the greater truth they are intended to address, IE God. It is not uncommon for a Methodist, Presbyterian, or Episcopalian to profess non-trinitarian views, even among the clergy. The response from the governing bodies of those denominations is usually neutral, so long as the disagreement is voiced in respect.
At times segments of Nicene Christianity reacted with ultimate severity toward nontrinitarian views. At other times, especially among Protestants, the same views have been accommodated. See the related section of the Unitarianism article for a more detailed discussion.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
How nice! A religious zealot tries to hijack your son in the name of truth. As a parent, I'd be tempted to go beat his a**! If THAT is the charity way to handle such situations I'd find me a different church.
My family went to a Presbyterian church after TWI. They believed and taught the trinity. We just didn't bring it up. Neither did they other than occasionally during a sermon. We got along fine.
I worked in a warehouse for awhile and sat at a table in the break room that other Christians sat at. I made up my mind to not comment on both abortion and the trinity. Sometimes the subject of abortion came up. The trinity NEVER came up. I got along fine.
Hopefully, this was God showing you what kind of atmosphere was in that church NOW before something worse happened later.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JWitt
Quote from Johniam
"My family went to a Presbyterian church after TWI. They believed and taught the trinity. We just didn't bring it up. Neither did they other than occasionally during a sermon. We got along fine."
That was initially my theory Johniam. Guess it didn't work out this way at this church. Maybe I'll try that Presbyterian church down the road.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I've run into a number of Christians who don't lose sleep over
the issue.
Then again, I've also had one scream at me in the street.
So, I'd call that "a mixed bag of responses."
Offhand, I think that's about as extreme a set of responses as
I could expect-indifference vs screaming in public.
======
Frankly,
I suspect the TRUE answer might be in NEITHER position as
stated, but somewhere in the middle.
(A corollary to Ockham's Razor states that if NONE of the possible
answers FULLY explain something, then all of them are WRONG.)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
Welcome to the Cafe!
I posted some notes about selecting a religious group down in the doctrinal basement. Those notes have gotten some good feedback from folks, so I'd encourage you to read them. You can find them by clicking on this hyperlink here.
There are multiple different ways of dealing with a disagreement in a fundamental dogma. It sounds like this group handled their disagreement in a untactful and unchristian manner. Not that they should accept your (from their perspective) heterodox beliefs, but they could have done so in a far more constructive manner. For example, demonstrating the correctness of their beliefs through the use of scriptures.
But not all folks identifying themselves as Christians exemplify their beliefs through their actions.
As a trinitarian, please accept my assurances that not all of us are pharisees.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WhiteDove
I think many of us faced this same problem. Unfortunatly I see no solution in the future for this either.
I wonder why anyone would want to involved with a church where you had to hide your beliefs in secret anyway? Having this secret always in the background hanging over your head like a time bomb waiting to go off can't be a good environment for spiritual growth. The fact that we feel we must hide this secret means we already know in our heart that we will never interact on a honest one to one basis. What kind of relationship is that really? Sure we can pretend and dance around the issues for awhile but at some point it will rear it's ugly head and you will be back to square one. If the only way to fit into a church is to compromise your beliefs then one would have to ask themselves is this really how I want to live and is this the spiritual environment that I want my life to be in?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
JWitt... why do you feel that "holding fast to the non-trinity" is crucial? I'm not saying that it is... but... could it be another 'veepeeism' that might need to be examined? I agree with what Rejoice said in that TWI made it 'a cornerstone tenet'... most of the time a person can make the Bible say whatever they want to through clever use of scripture... even in the case of JCING... TWI did it most of the time...
Try to throw off everything from the past and start with "Love God first and love thy neighbor as thyself." Try to start anew with only that as your base belief... maybe you'll get farther. Mine is an admittedly biased view but, I can't trust anything from TWI. Even though I've no doubt that there was 'truth' taught it's my contention that you have to sift through so much personal agenda and dogma and decide which it true and which isn't that it's easier to start anew.
I'd imagine it'd be tough to 'find a church home' that fits all of your criteria when some (most?) of that criteria comes from TWI. Love God, love thy neighbor as thyself. Go from there.
when you're looking... look for (and at) the love... that'll be the "right" church...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nottawayfer
JWitt,
That is terrible that you all were treated this way. I would definitely be looking for another place to go where you will be welcomed no matter what you believe.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
Tom,
The unitarian POV (that Jesus is not God, and that the trinity isn't true) has been held to by various groups long before VeePee was a gleam in his daddy's eye.
Just thought I'd let you know.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
What The Hey
Sounds like you ended up becoming affiliated with another (although different) group of Christian-Zionists to me.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
Oh... I know that... I was assuming that Jwitt picked it up to 'hold fast to' while in TWI is all... :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheEvan
As were numerous Wierwillianiamisms-ah, Garth.
Doesn't make them right or wrong. I think Mr. Strange is more addressing "how" we know what we know, otherwise known in egghead circles as epistemology. I heartily endorse his suggestion (as you well know) as I think it's important for each person to know what they know entirely outside the framework of WierwilleDogma©. It's just healthier that way.
But you may not want her to do this as she may come to a conclusion that bothers you, like:
1. What's the big deal? or
2. Jesus really is God after all
...or whatever.
Edited by TheEvanLink to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
Evan,
For your information Evan, no, whether or not Jesus is God really doesn't bother me (as it is moot as far as I'm concerned), and yes, it really doesn't matter.
These points do bother a lot more traditional, orthodox believers than many of us 'heretics'; one orthodox individual here on this board whom you know (and with whom I have various scrapes with
) is but one classic example of such.
Maybe reminders of that uncomfortable fact is what is bothering you, perchance? :unsure: ... But what do I know.
I do see Mr. Strange's point tho', altho' there have been those who were in TWI (like ex-JWs, atheists, etc.) who didn't take the trinitarian argument seriously either before they got involved.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
For me, listening to their pov and understanding that, a)it doesn't really matter in the end...because if it matters soooooo much as to divide, then it's no longer about God or Jesus but about arguing, b)most of the time (notice I said 'most' and not 'all') the question isn't about Jesus=God, but about the divine nature of Jesus, and, c)if anybody makes such a big deal out of the issue, then that person, no matter which side they fall on, is more concerned about dogma than about following the example of Jesus.
No matter where one stands on this question, if one stands so staunchly as to stir up strife, cause divisions and cause others of the body to be shunned, humiliated or in any other way castigated for not agreeing...well, then, that's a cult mindset. IMO.
And I would avoid participating in any group that accepts such a stance.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JWitt
Hi everyone
Thanks for your great responses. Unfortunately as I live in a different time zone (Australia) I was asleep in my bed when you were all busily typing away.
I have to go to work now, but I would love to reply to some of your posts when I get home tonight (my time).
Thanks again guys it helps to talk to people who know where I'm coming from and don't think I'm from the planet Mars or something.
JWitt
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex70sHouston
I go to Baptist church today and fit in great.
When my beliefs vary from a lot of other people. In fact I'm not even considered the strange one.
What I tell people is that if you study the bible you will have beliefs that are different than other people. What I get out of it is a little differant then the next person.
Watch out for the person that blindly believes whatever is spouted out from behind a pulpit or from some great man of God. I believe that God gave me a mind to use.
Maybe this is why I didnt last that long in TWI.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
danteh1
Hi JWitt
I know how you feel. I grew up in the Presbitarian church.
But i never really belived in JC being God, guess that's what hooked me into joining TWI.
I never really ran into very many people that screamed and yelled at me not beliving in the trinity (except when i lived in Emporia, Kansas). There was this one 'NUT Case' that was a REAL thorn in the side cause i was in TWI that kept him going over the deep end just cause i WAS a member and didn't respond like he wanted me to on his ranting and ravings. I just remained calm and let him blow off steam. after a while he just learned that i wasn't going to drop to his level and he finally quit.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
penguin
JWitt,
Sorry you have had a bad experience at that church. I have been going to a non-denominational church for a few months and enjoy it a lot. I met the pastor pretty quickly after my first visit and talked with him regarding the trinity. (I have talked with an elder there too about it.) Both went along with believing in Jesus is the criteria to be born again and that people have different beliefs. Granted this pastor has several people in his church that used to be in twi. (Which I didnt know until after I met the pastor and he told me he was familiar with twi.) Several ex twiers are in varying degrees of counselling and leadership roles--and I know that some of them still don't believe in the trinity.
I think a lot of us here at the cafe have learned that you need to look for the fruit in people's lives--which would definitely include what you were trying to focus on--but maybe that church doesnt.
Hugs
Penguin
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Good point, Penguin. ;)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JWitt
I just had the minister from the church come for a visit to "smooth things over". He asked what he could do to "work things out" so that we would stay at the church. So it seems like an olive branch has been offered which is a good sign.
I asked if he would get together with myself, my husband and the youth leader in question to see if we can come to an amicable co-existance given our differences. He agreed to that, so maybe we don't need to go church hunting afterall.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.