Eyes, a difficult aspect to this topic is understanding it by two of the criteria humans normally apply to anything they "believe" - not believe in, but believe. The two things - consistency and reliability. We look for repetition in life to establish our actions, repeated instances that form some level of consistency that we can then rely on. Predictable. Every day the sun comes up. That's repetition. We learn to rely on it and act with an expectation that there will be light. When it's dark when it should be light we want to know why. Deviations are accounted for over time and understood.
Still there are things that occur that can't be studied, like the idea of "angels", a broad topic methinks - one reason being we haven't established the repetitions to look for that will allow us to know what's going on and then be ready to examine them more closely when they occur. Not being able to reliably expect and experience and accumulate knowledge makes it difficult. If angels exist, when do they show up, what are they doing, why now and not then? Why you and not me? Why this and not that. And if they can assist why not to the extent that they help humans avoid difficult circumstances altogether?
Couple things I"ve latched onto - 1.) Allow for the possibility that a larger vision is being realized in life. It may not be how I would choose it to be. I may not be able to change it to my liking. So be it. I then need to at least attempt to understand it and live within it's constraints and freedoms and try to see where this ride is going.
2.) The "unusual" can happen at any time, anywhere, to anyone and with anything. Observation has shown me that while I don't as yet understand everything that occurs around me there is a consistency to it, although not one I would, by certain standards, establish. To that end it's reliable, if not how I would choose, consistent and reliable to it's own rules.
I might put it "there's a lot going on that has nothing to do with me". At the same time, I function and live within the world in which all of that's going on. It stands to reason then, if there are "angels', and others that God has created, I may cross paths with them and they with me - but according to the purposes that govern all of us, not just me.
he didnt use the word angel he had just told me he did not know alot about "here" where? he didnt mean the town or the state he met the big here as in not at all here.m
he had a dove on his shirt you know the little holy spirit doves some wore in twi? it was sparkly and i asked about it then I thought he is an angel and he was so not familiar with " where he was" he fixed my car opened the hood and fixed it . I was really stuck no cell phones then and the kids were at day care..... I needed my car, he fixed it. i asked him if he was born again he said no he cant be got all flustered when I asked why he said they coulnt be but he loved God very much. he was an angel. then he went away i never saw him walk away and this was a parking LOT! the shop was closed and no other cars had come or gone.
so I went into the store to cancel the tow truck i didnt have money to pay for and I said that guy just fixed it.
they said no guy was out there this was about four feet from the shop.
I'm not someone who looks for angels, so maybe I've encountered them and didn't recognize them. The mental place that I'm in these days I'm thankful for when things work out, or synchronicity puts some helpful soul in front of me. I can't think of any incidents that cause me to say "There's no way that could have been natural, it must have been an angel!" - but there's plenty of incidents where people came out of nowhere to help me out...bless 'em.
I used to travel a lot for my job with a regional newspaper, and usually was able to plan around the weather and miss the worst of it. One particular day I ignored my intuition and took off in the snow, which soon turned into a blizzard. Even driving slowly I lost track of where the road was and ended up in a ditch. This was before cell phones had become ubiquitous, so I was stuck about 5 miles from the nearest town and unsure where the nearest farmhouse was. Before I had taken five steps a big pickup truck roars up and out pop three big cornfed Nebraska farmboys. Without a word they hitch a tow line to my car and two of them get behind the car and push. Without waiting for thanks they jumped in their truck and took off.
Were they angels? Dunno. :huh:
I suppose if I was inclined to think in that direction I might say yeah, they were. But I don't think in that direction, so I don't give it much thought; whoever they were they got me out of the snow and I'm thankful for their help.
Eyes you noted the element common to nearly all stories of people encountering what they consider "angels". Help. Someone showing up unannounced, unexpected, to help when it's needed. That verse about "entertaining angels, unaware" comes to mind. If it weren't in the bible it might read "don't refuse a gift because you don't recognize the giver". "Angels" don't have to be spiritual beings in human composition. They could also be someone who, in their own way, is following their inspiriration and guidance and in some form of complex synchronicity, as Oaks notes, is there to help.
The really interesting part of any of this would be to understand the parts that flowed to produce the result. If a million different things could have happened, a million different ways, how and why then, that way? Everything in life is really happening at that level of magnitude, whether it's unusual or not. Given that anything can happen, what constitutes a enough factors moving in a certain direction to produce something "normal" and why at that time didn't any of the other millions of possiblities factor in and occur?
Add to that anything I can't imagine and just going out to get the mail turns into an adventure.
Still, when someone appears and disappears in front of two people, two different times on the way in and the way out, it leads me to believe something I didn't understand by normal experience happened. It would be wrong for me to deny it or explain it in other terms - "well, they just ran away really fast" or "I wasn't paying attention, I might have not seen that guy there". If that's not what happened, that's not what happened. Better to accept reality for what it is and go from there, IMO. But it's up to each person to evaluate their own stuff.
Another oddball event - years ago in the 80's I was driving north on I-75 out of Florida up into Georgia and my car started making some serious weird noises and smoking off and on. I got off and stopped to get gas and then pulled up next to the market next door. I opened the hood, and a guy came up, normal looking guy, and he said "I can fix what's wrong with your car for you" and I said I had no idea what was wrong with it and started to describe the noise and smoke. He had a tool box, and he got under the hood and messed with the fan belt and moved the alternator around and other stuff while I watched. I talked to him a little and all he said was "hmm mmm. Hmmm. Hmmmm mmm". He finally shut the hood and said "Start it up". It sounded okay. He looked in the window and just said "See ya" and walked away.
I pulled out - it sounded fine, I watched him walk into the store and I pulled back up to go in and thank him. He was gone.
What can I say? Right place, right time. Maybe he went into the bathroom to clean up. I didn't ask, I took off. Car ran fine.
There were a few other times over the years I'd wished he'd been there too, to be honest. :)
I know I’ve had the experience more than once of someone showing up “out of the blue” to help and then being gone seemingly “into thin air”. I’m sure we’ve all entertained angels unaware that show up to help in times of need.
But the encounter that stands out in my memory took place somewhere around 1996 or so. I was at a church retreat center in Oregon. My son was about 4 years old at the time and he was asleep in the bed in our tiny room at the retreat center, next to me. I believe I was praying as I was lying down on the bed. I was startled when I looked up and saw two individuals peering over the bed at me. I’m not sure how to explain, it but they were like holographic images, not flesh and blood. One was a male, with rather longish reddish blond hair, very strong looking. The other was a female, with a kind of long face, large eyes and long straight brown hair, not beautiful, but not unpleasant looking either. Like I said, they startled me but they just looked at me and that was it. I’m sure they were angelic beings, but that’s all I can explain about it.
We sure have some wonderful stories being shared here! Jave brings up a very interesting twist to the concept of Angels. Could they appear as ghosts? Or what we define as ghosts? Throw out all the junk that VP tried to have us swallow about ghosts and such...could some of them be angels? Someone brought up the very real concept of an Angel taking on the likeness or persona of the moment. Assuming the shape of someone that would blend in and not draw undue attention and also at the same time garner trust and immediate acceptance. What if someone believed in ghosts and really needed to hear something from their mom who had passed away. Sunesis pointed out that they are here for us who are heirs to the kingdom.
Socks you made some really neat comments and this is the one that I really related too,
"Allow for the possibility that a larger vision is being realized in life."
I dont know how many times I've heard a sermon where the preacher has told the congregation that they needed to get outside of themselves and stop focusing on only their lives, their is a bigger picture. I think this is why Angels only do what they do to the extent that they do it. For example; some could ask me why the Angel returned me the waiting arms of twi and all the ungodliness that went with it? And I would answer "because that is where i was going and would not accept any other destination." He worked with me where I was at in life and his appearance did change the course of my history.
Angels are here to help us, among other things and I'm so glad that they bother pulling us back onto safe ground when all we want to do is catch the fish or just need to get from poing A to point B or just to watch out for us. I also think that perhaps a person who happens to be doing the 'right' thing by helping a stranger could be considered an Angel of sorts and hopefully we all have had many an experience with these people and perhaps been one from time to time.
Great thread, this. Thanks for starting it. Wonderful to have some positive stories.
It could be that the person or people who just show up at a time of need or come and offer help are themselves just inspired by God to go and offer help. Just normal human beings like all of us, who just happen to be “there” at the right time. Like Philip in the Book of Acts.
Others definitely could be non-human intervention.
I also went off the road in a very bad storm. It had turned into real monsoon-like conditions. The weather had delayed me and I was going to be late. I was meeting a friend in a little town half-way between our respective cities (which are 800 km apart). I swung around a gentle corner at a road junction - too fast, and the road was very wet and I oversteered. Into the ditch and into a fence post. It was still raining hard, and it was quite late at night and in the middle of nowhere. I was concerned that the friend would be concerned about me being late and I had no means of contact (pre cell phone). I had scarcely seen a car all night (this being a remote unpopulated area). I had no idea where the nearest house was, much less a phone box or a town, to call for help. But within just a few minutes on this road - where there was hardly any traffic - two men in a sturdy vehicle pulled up, saw the problem, laughed kindly at me, hitched my car to their vehicle, and towed me out of the steep ditch. And then just drove away. Oh, and the rain eased off at the same time.
The only damage to my car was a very slight dent on the radiator grille, which was so unnoticeable that I immediately forgot about it. The wooden fence post was sheered off at the base but still hanging on its wires and functional as a fence. I was not delayed on my journey by more than a few minutes. I was hugely aware that the incident could have been so very much more serious and drove carefully and more slowly after that.
Angels? I didn’t think so at the time. I took them for local farmers who were perhaps on their way home from the pub or something. I never took them for other than human beings. But the whole event seemed completely miraculous to me: that I was uninjured, my car undamaged, and these men with the perfect vehicle and the perfect equipment arrived at the perfect time to haul my car out. I still think they were just men – but who knows?
Another much more recent incident. Another country. A friend (another exWayfer) was coming to visit for the weekend. He caught the train and I went to meet him at the local station. But he was engrossed in conversation with someone on the train ("witnessing") and although he could see me banging on the window, didn’t recognise me in time and the train departed the station, he still on the train. I didn’t know what to do. He might have been able to catch another train back from the next station – if there was a “next train” at that hour of the night. I mused what to do and then decided to head for the next station anyway. It’s about 10 miles away. By this time the train had a good head start. The journey by car to the next station is along narrow country lanes, very dark, very winding, and I didn’t know where the station was, exactly. I put my foot down and soon reached the town and the station was clearly marked. As I got there, a train was just about to depart for where I had just come from. Was my friend on it, going back? I ran the length of the train to see but it drew away.
I dawdled round the tiny station and crossed the bridge to the other platform, wondering what to do now. I decided to go back to my car. As I crossed the bridge back… a train drew in on the other platform. It was the train that had just left where my friend should have got off. My name was called. My friend had got off the train and was calling to me. I don’t know how he did this as he wouldn’t have been expecting me at the next station.
How did this happen? I know I drove very fast (ignoring speed limits), and there was no other traffic on the road in either direction. And the train’s route is somewhat longer than the road route. But still… it was weird. And the car journey took much less time than it should have done. My friend is convinced my car was “angel propelled”. Maybe he is right. Or maybe it was all just happy coincidence.
We had a really good weekend together. He is still laughing about my angel-propelled car.
He says he has had angel intervention on his behalf on a couple of occasions and the tales he tells echo those on this thread, sudden intervention by a stranger from nowhere at a time of need, and then the stranger is nowhere to be found.
I dont know Twinky, I think I would like to see what kind of emissions your car gives off now that its been cleaned out by Angel propulsion!
My parents came from large families as did their parents and I am also from a large family. So when making meals when I was young mom would always have some huge pot simmering full of something on the stove. But as the years went on her large brood thinned down considerably until at last all that was left was yours truly the baby of the family. Mom adjusted her pot size to accomodate the smaller family but still we would find ourselves eating a meal several days in a row. So I asked her why she continued to make so much and her answer both surprised me and continues to stay on my mind to this day and it causes me to see things from a different point of view. She told me that her mother had taught her to always make enough food so that if you should be so blessed you may entertain Angels unaware and have enough to go around. She sited for me the verse and to this day I always make enough food for more than one meal...just in case.
What I see from all of these beautiful stories is that God is willing and wants to help us in every aspect of our lives. The smallest of details are attended too. Like in Kit's case she didnt necessarily need to find a new church to help her through a tough time, a church pew would be more than sufficient for the job. DMiller and Sunesis simply needed to get home safely, Socks needed to get to a doctor for his finger and NiKa's dad needed some ammo.
I'm sure that we dont see Angels more often than we actually see them but it is very cool when they show themselves. Another thing that I noticed in the stories is that there was never a moment of hesitation at answering them or taking their direction. No-one asked "What the heck? or Who the heck are you?" or anything like that. DMiller was told to get back in his car and drive. He did. Sunesis wandered around Brooklyn with a complete stranger leading the way. NiKa's dad crawled out of a safe spot on the words of a dead man. Both Socks and the 'mom' followed the direction of a man who was there and then wasn't and Kit found a church pew in an unlikely spot and two unknown men helped her load it in the car. No-one questioned these 'people' except to ask them if they were angels.
It's really amazing how God gave us the standard five senses and an extra sixth one, as well as feelings and emotions to help us decipher and understand not only the world around us but the spiritual realm when it crosses into ours. I actually feel sorry for the folks that deny the reality that occurs all around them for whatever 'logical' reason that they use. They are really missing out on a lot of wonderful and amazing things.
As for that second one of DMiller's...that's just amazing! That kind of thing is just plain biblical to me, burning bush kinda stuff! Very cool!
Perhaps Mr. Ham will grace us with his story now?
OK -- I thought I was done with this thread,
but I've got an *unscratched itch* here that needs to be addressed.
The furthest thing from my mind was asking *Are you an Angel?* when help arrived on the road.
They were there, I needed help, and they offered it, and I wasn't about to ask for their I.D.
The fact that they disappeared so COMPLETELY in a matter of 2 seconds, did get me to wondering.
But I waited to think about it until I got *home*. Still had a snow covered road to deal with.
The more I thought about it afterwards, I realized there was NO way they could've disappeared that fast.
I could see up the road behind me for 100 yards easily, and there was zip, nada, nothing, zilch,
where 2 seconds earlier there had been 3 guys pushing me out of the snow drift,
that they would have had to slog through to get to their vehicle (which I didn't see either).
Now --- as pertains to experience #2 --- There was NEVER a need to ask for ID there.
It was purty dag gum obvious where it came from. It's not every day I see the name of a friend of mine,
in HUGE letters hanging out over my back yard, especially if I just prayed for help.
So --- now to get to my *unscratched itch*, and it involves docvic and his teachings about angels.
IF I RECOLLECT CORRECT (someone correct me if I am wrong):
we were taught that angels were *protecting spirits* UNTIL WE WERE BORN AGAIN.
After that ---- (sigh!) we only had the *Christ in Us*, and the Angel band left en masse.
No *protection* whatsoever provided by the Father,
like He's done for folks throughout the ages for His believers.
Good ole docvic preached the law of believing more than he did the Gospel of Christ.
But -- I'm not shedding *new light here*. Anyone with half a brain can see the inconsistencies.
I hung onto that angel teaching for years that docvic spewed. He messed up.
Plain and simple --- he messed up BIG TIME on this one.
I (personally) think he forgot to mention that Jesus Christ was/is in charge.
As second in command ( A Joseph to Pharaoh thing), He's in command of the *troops*.
Why would they be *decommissioned* once some one believes?? Makes ZERO sense to me.
So --- as a result --- I have NO problem listening to an angel story.
Docvic and his fabulous fairy tale train can ride the rails, and (hopefully) get de-railed.
His self serving ego allowed him to tell US what was, and what wasn't.
And (I for one), bought into that lie, just like many others he told.
So if I hear an *angel story* these days, I don't listen with skepticism.
I was taught a negative concept about angels, (once upon a time),
but see if I believe that fairy tale (these days). :)
Before we were married, my wife had an encounter. She was walking home one night on a deserted street when a guy grabbed her from behind, and held a knife to her throat. He then took her backback and threw her to the ground. He left her there, but started to come back when she got up. Trying to get away, my wife limped to the curb and, looking both ways, saw there was no traffic in either direction. She turned back and saw the guy coming toward her, then turned back to the street and suddenly there was a car not more than five feet from her, with two people in it. They pulled up and stopped, and one of them got out. The guy chasing her ran off. They had her get in the car, asking if she was OK. Her neck was bleeding, so they took her to the hospital. She got out of the car and started walking toward the ER entrance, but when she turned back to see if they were coming, they were gone. The cut on her neck required stitches and they were concerned that there might have been damage to her vocal cords, as she kept getting hoarse. Eventually everything healed OK though. She still has a very faint scar on her neck, but it's at a crease so it's barely visible. The day after the incident, once the shock wore off and she thought over the incident, she knew the people in the car were angels.
IF I RECOLLECT CORRECT (someone correct me if I am wrong):
we were taught that angels were *protecting spirits* UNTIL WE WERE BORN AGAIN.
After that ---- (sigh!) we only had the *Christ in Us*, and the Angel band left en masse.
No *protection* whatsoever provided by the Father,
like He's done for folks throughout the ages for His believers.
For sure there aren’t many references to Angels in the NT but then there aren’t generally in the Bible. Here are some references in Acts and subsequently there are lots of references in Revelation, which are obviously a little different, and clearly angels are very busy then whereas our role is not mentioned!
But hey, Peter and Philip among others received visits and assistance from angels. Are Peter and Philip more deserving, that they get special treatment?
We were taught that the power of God as shown in Acts is still available. So why not the supporting cast as well? What Wierwille taught on this is rubbish. Angels were around and still are around. Maybe their job description has changed a little in respect of those born again; maybe not. Those references in Rev 2 and 3 suggest in fact that angels have a very specific responsibility to care for the "church" to which they are assigned. (Was the angel assigned to TWI doing a good job? LOL)
There are probably a whole lot more incidents where angels have helped believers and unbelievers alike but simply not been recognised.
Ac 5:19 - But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said,
Ac 8:26 - And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
Ac 10:3 - He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
Ac 10:7 - And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
Ac 10:22 - And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
Ac 11:13 - And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Ac 12:7 - And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands.
Ac 12:8 - And the angel said unto him, Gird thyself, and bind on thy sandals. And so he did. And he saith unto him, Cast thy garment about thee, and follow me.
Ac 12:9 - And he went out, and followed him; and wist not that it was true which was done by the angel; but thought he saw a vision.
Ac 12:10 - When they were past the first and the second ward, they came unto the iron gate that leadeth unto the city; which opened to them of his own accord: and they went out, and passed on through one street; and forthwith the angel departed from him.
Ac 12:11 - And when Peter was come to himself, he said, Now I know of a surety, that the Lord hath sent his angel, and hath delivered me out of the hand of Herod, and from all the expectation of the people of the Jews.
Ac 27:23 - For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,
Ga 1:8 - But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Re 1:1 - The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Re 2:1 - Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
Re 2:8 - And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Re 2:12 - And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
Re 2:18 - And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
Re 3:1 - And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Re 3:7 - And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Re 3:14 - And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Re 22:8 - And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Re 22:16 - I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
And of course, this one, which “doesn’t apply to us”:
Heb 13:2 - Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
Wierwille based his view of angels on this verse:
Heb 1:14 - Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
As "shall be" is in the future, he reasoned, once we are the heirs of salvation the future in that respect has been attained. But we haven't fully attained salvation and infact "the gift of holy spirit" is itself expressed to be only a token or an earnest. In fact, legally an "heir" is the one who will inherit something in the future - not the one who already has it. (But I didn't check the Greek word on this, maybe heirs is just an approximate translation.)
And the context of Heb 14 is not so much concerned with *us* as with the Lord Jesus Christ.
(edited to add the Heb 1:14 reference, which I couldn't remember the reference for, originally)
IF I RECOLLECT CORRECT (someone correct me if I am wrong):
we were taught that angels were *protecting spirits* UNTIL WE WERE BORN AGAIN.
After that ---- (sigh!) we only had the *Christ in Us*, and the Angel band left en masse.
No *protection* whatsoever provided by the Father,
like He's done for folks throughout the ages for His believers.
Yes, David that is how recall it as well.
(Except, I think it was taught that the "guardian angels" only watched over us until we reached the age of accountability or until we were born again if that came first.) I seem to recall it was a very short section of scripture in Hebrews that was used to supposedly "prove" this.
This was also used back-handedly to reinforce the fear of leaving "The Household".
(ie:) If you leave, there will be no angels to help, only Christ in you.
But the catch was that it very difficult(maybe impossible, don't recall) to "connect" with the Christ in you when you are "out of fellowship" which, of course, you would be by leaving the household. So, by virtue of logic, leaving the household put you in a situation where the Christ in you was like money in the bank you couldn't withdraw. Ergo, if you want the power of God in your life, you can never leave.
(Except, I think it was taught that the "guardian angels" only watched over us until we reached the age of accountability or until we were born again if that came first.) I seem to recall it was a very short section of scripture in Hebrews that was used to supposedly "prove" this.
This was also used back-handedly to reinforce the fear of leaving "The Household".
(ie:) If you leave, there will be no angels to help, only Christ in you.
But the catch was that it very difficult(maybe impossible, don't recall) to "connect" with the Christ in you when you are "out of fellowship" which, of course, you would be by leaving the household. So, by virtue of logic, leaving the household put you in a situation where the Christ in you was like money in the bank you couldn't withdraw. Ergo, if you want the power of God in your life, you can never leave.
TWI was a sick and twisted way of life. (IMO)
It was Hebrews 1:13-14.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
It's certainly a stretch to interpret this as meaning that they no longer ministered to us after we were born again.
It's certainly a stretch to interpret this as meaning that they no longer ministered to us after we were born again.
Well we all know (experiencially) that twi was very good at streeeeeetchhhinggg verses of the bible to make it say what they wanted all the while telling us that 'others' did this very same thing.
You know I didnt ask my Angel for his ID...but that was because I was too busy flapping my gums at him. Poor soul! He had to have pulled the short stick!
Sometimes I wonder what it is like seeing the world and mankind as a whole from their point of view. They are charged with watching over us...do they make more rescues like so many of you have described than say a hundred years ago? Are they jealous of us or feel sorry for us? Do they like their jobs? What will they do when this world is done away and the next begins? VP made it sound like they were lesser beings than us but I think that they are just different beings than us.
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Ham
I was an angel once..
somewhere between Bluefield and Princeton WV.. circa 1975.
It was about a 22 mile walk, I chose to hitchhike.
During the first couple of miles, a church bus passed..
I got a ride, and at about the five mile mark, again, the very same church bus passed me by.
Then.. I got yet another ride.. at the 12 mile mark, there I was yet again.. the bus passed.
immediately after I got yet the last ride..
at the 20 mile mark.. the bus approached.. they stopped.. the guy's face was white.. he says, "are you an angel?"
and at the moment, I just couldn't say "yeah, take pfal.."
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frank123lol
When I was 14 or 15,My dad and I were fishing,at the time snagging was legal for salmon,when you would get a fish on
you line you would yell fish on.Well I went to net the fish (now the line was 50lb test)I fought my way up near the dam,
the fish jerked and almost took me over the side of the dam,at the last moment someone reached out and grabbed my legs.
and pulled me back over the side.I proceeded to finish catching the fish,afterward I tried to find who helped me to no avail.
Itold my dad later,all he said was to be careful,you decde...
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socks
Eyes, a difficult aspect to this topic is understanding it by two of the criteria humans normally apply to anything they "believe" - not believe in, but believe. The two things - consistency and reliability. We look for repetition in life to establish our actions, repeated instances that form some level of consistency that we can then rely on. Predictable. Every day the sun comes up. That's repetition. We learn to rely on it and act with an expectation that there will be light. When it's dark when it should be light we want to know why. Deviations are accounted for over time and understood.
Still there are things that occur that can't be studied, like the idea of "angels", a broad topic methinks - one reason being we haven't established the repetitions to look for that will allow us to know what's going on and then be ready to examine them more closely when they occur. Not being able to reliably expect and experience and accumulate knowledge makes it difficult. If angels exist, when do they show up, what are they doing, why now and not then? Why you and not me? Why this and not that. And if they can assist why not to the extent that they help humans avoid difficult circumstances altogether?
Couple things I"ve latched onto - 1.) Allow for the possibility that a larger vision is being realized in life. It may not be how I would choose it to be. I may not be able to change it to my liking. So be it. I then need to at least attempt to understand it and live within it's constraints and freedoms and try to see where this ride is going.
2.) The "unusual" can happen at any time, anywhere, to anyone and with anything. Observation has shown me that while I don't as yet understand everything that occurs around me there is a consistency to it, although not one I would, by certain standards, establish. To that end it's reliable, if not how I would choose, consistent and reliable to it's own rules.
I might put it "there's a lot going on that has nothing to do with me". At the same time, I function and live within the world in which all of that's going on. It stands to reason then, if there are "angels', and others that God has created, I may cross paths with them and they with me - but according to the purposes that govern all of us, not just me.
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pond
yes
how do i know it was really an angel?
i asked him.
he didnt use the word angel he had just told me he did not know alot about "here" where? he didnt mean the town or the state he met the big here as in not at all here.m
he had a dove on his shirt you know the little holy spirit doves some wore in twi? it was sparkly and i asked about it then I thought he is an angel and he was so not familiar with " where he was" he fixed my car opened the hood and fixed it . I was really stuck no cell phones then and the kids were at day care..... I needed my car, he fixed it. i asked him if he was born again he said no he cant be got all flustered when I asked why he said they coulnt be but he loved God very much. he was an angel. then he went away i never saw him walk away and this was a parking LOT! the shop was closed and no other cars had come or gone.
so I went into the store to cancel the tow truck i didnt have money to pay for and I said that guy just fixed it.
they said no guy was out there this was about four feet from the shop.
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Juan Cruz
Rainer Marie Rilke and Archibald MacCleish weigh in on angels... Salinger peeps in the window... Juan sweats and Obama sails south...
an angel is a poem
a state of grace
a piece of fruit palpable and mute
of course i've met a phantom angel
if one ever answered me from heaven I'd dissolve in his beauty
beauty is naught but terror that disdains to destroy us.
concordance around the room with me
one more time
Friday night and twiggies gone home
Stay with me, Twiggy
Witness to me, Twiggy angel
get your feathers out of my mouth
Oh, what a witness divine. (unworthy)
Oh, such believing!
Oh, Esme, save me with your fear and loathing.
Oooo, la la
hidden in the cleft of the rock
is the honey
sorry, what was the question?
Volvamos la "Madre de Presidentes" azul como el océano ... azul, el azul de la esperanza que canta toda la noche como un pájaro desquiciada.
It's h,h &h in Casa de Lunes
J de la C
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Oakspear
I'm not someone who looks for angels, so maybe I've encountered them and didn't recognize them. The mental place that I'm in these days I'm thankful for when things work out, or synchronicity puts some helpful soul in front of me. I can't think of any incidents that cause me to say "There's no way that could have been natural, it must have been an angel!" - but there's plenty of incidents where people came out of nowhere to help me out...bless 'em.
I used to travel a lot for my job with a regional newspaper, and usually was able to plan around the weather and miss the worst of it. One particular day I ignored my intuition and took off in the snow, which soon turned into a blizzard. Even driving slowly I lost track of where the road was and ended up in a ditch. This was before cell phones had become ubiquitous, so I was stuck about 5 miles from the nearest town and unsure where the nearest farmhouse was. Before I had taken five steps a big pickup truck roars up and out pop three big cornfed Nebraska farmboys. Without a word they hitch a tow line to my car and two of them get behind the car and push. Without waiting for thanks they jumped in their truck and took off.
Were they angels? Dunno. :huh:
I suppose if I was inclined to think in that direction I might say yeah, they were. But I don't think in that direction, so I don't give it much thought; whoever they were they got me out of the snow and I'm thankful for their help.
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socks
Eyes you noted the element common to nearly all stories of people encountering what they consider "angels". Help. Someone showing up unannounced, unexpected, to help when it's needed. That verse about "entertaining angels, unaware" comes to mind. If it weren't in the bible it might read "don't refuse a gift because you don't recognize the giver". "Angels" don't have to be spiritual beings in human composition. They could also be someone who, in their own way, is following their inspiriration and guidance and in some form of complex synchronicity, as Oaks notes, is there to help.
The really interesting part of any of this would be to understand the parts that flowed to produce the result. If a million different things could have happened, a million different ways, how and why then, that way? Everything in life is really happening at that level of magnitude, whether it's unusual or not. Given that anything can happen, what constitutes a enough factors moving in a certain direction to produce something "normal" and why at that time didn't any of the other millions of possiblities factor in and occur?
Add to that anything I can't imagine and just going out to get the mail turns into an adventure.
Still, when someone appears and disappears in front of two people, two different times on the way in and the way out, it leads me to believe something I didn't understand by normal experience happened. It would be wrong for me to deny it or explain it in other terms - "well, they just ran away really fast" or "I wasn't paying attention, I might have not seen that guy there". If that's not what happened, that's not what happened. Better to accept reality for what it is and go from there, IMO. But it's up to each person to evaluate their own stuff.
Another oddball event - years ago in the 80's I was driving north on I-75 out of Florida up into Georgia and my car started making some serious weird noises and smoking off and on. I got off and stopped to get gas and then pulled up next to the market next door. I opened the hood, and a guy came up, normal looking guy, and he said "I can fix what's wrong with your car for you" and I said I had no idea what was wrong with it and started to describe the noise and smoke. He had a tool box, and he got under the hood and messed with the fan belt and moved the alternator around and other stuff while I watched. I talked to him a little and all he said was "hmm mmm. Hmmm. Hmmmm mmm". He finally shut the hood and said "Start it up". It sounded okay. He looked in the window and just said "See ya" and walked away.
I pulled out - it sounded fine, I watched him walk into the store and I pulled back up to go in and thank him. He was gone.
What can I say? Right place, right time. Maybe he went into the bathroom to clean up. I didn't ask, I took off. Car ran fine.
There were a few other times over the years I'd wished he'd been there too, to be honest. :)
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wrdsandwrks
I know I’ve had the experience more than once of someone showing up “out of the blue” to help and then being gone seemingly “into thin air”. I’m sure we’ve all entertained angels unaware that show up to help in times of need.
But the encounter that stands out in my memory took place somewhere around 1996 or so. I was at a church retreat center in Oregon. My son was about 4 years old at the time and he was asleep in the bed in our tiny room at the retreat center, next to me. I believe I was praying as I was lying down on the bed. I was startled when I looked up and saw two individuals peering over the bed at me. I’m not sure how to explain, it but they were like holographic images, not flesh and blood. One was a male, with rather longish reddish blond hair, very strong looking. The other was a female, with a kind of long face, large eyes and long straight brown hair, not beautiful, but not unpleasant looking either. Like I said, they startled me but they just looked at me and that was it. I’m sure they were angelic beings, but that’s all I can explain about it.
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Eyesopen
We sure have some wonderful stories being shared here! Jave brings up a very interesting twist to the concept of Angels. Could they appear as ghosts? Or what we define as ghosts? Throw out all the junk that VP tried to have us swallow about ghosts and such...could some of them be angels? Someone brought up the very real concept of an Angel taking on the likeness or persona of the moment. Assuming the shape of someone that would blend in and not draw undue attention and also at the same time garner trust and immediate acceptance. What if someone believed in ghosts and really needed to hear something from their mom who had passed away. Sunesis pointed out that they are here for us who are heirs to the kingdom.
Socks you made some really neat comments and this is the one that I really related too,
I dont know how many times I've heard a sermon where the preacher has told the congregation that they needed to get outside of themselves and stop focusing on only their lives, their is a bigger picture. I think this is why Angels only do what they do to the extent that they do it. For example; some could ask me why the Angel returned me the waiting arms of twi and all the ungodliness that went with it? And I would answer "because that is where i was going and would not accept any other destination." He worked with me where I was at in life and his appearance did change the course of my history.Angels are here to help us, among other things and I'm so glad that they bother pulling us back onto safe ground when all we want to do is catch the fish or just need to get from poing A to point B or just to watch out for us. I also think that perhaps a person who happens to be doing the 'right' thing by helping a stranger could be considered an Angel of sorts and hopefully we all have had many an experience with these people and perhaps been one from time to time.
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Twinky
Great thread, this. Thanks for starting it. Wonderful to have some positive stories.
It could be that the person or people who just show up at a time of need or come and offer help are themselves just inspired by God to go and offer help. Just normal human beings like all of us, who just happen to be “there” at the right time. Like Philip in the Book of Acts.
Others definitely could be non-human intervention.
I also went off the road in a very bad storm. It had turned into real monsoon-like conditions. The weather had delayed me and I was going to be late. I was meeting a friend in a little town half-way between our respective cities (which are 800 km apart). I swung around a gentle corner at a road junction - too fast, and the road was very wet and I oversteered. Into the ditch and into a fence post. It was still raining hard, and it was quite late at night and in the middle of nowhere. I was concerned that the friend would be concerned about me being late and I had no means of contact (pre cell phone). I had scarcely seen a car all night (this being a remote unpopulated area). I had no idea where the nearest house was, much less a phone box or a town, to call for help. But within just a few minutes on this road - where there was hardly any traffic - two men in a sturdy vehicle pulled up, saw the problem, laughed kindly at me, hitched my car to their vehicle, and towed me out of the steep ditch. And then just drove away. Oh, and the rain eased off at the same time.
The only damage to my car was a very slight dent on the radiator grille, which was so unnoticeable that I immediately forgot about it. The wooden fence post was sheered off at the base but still hanging on its wires and functional as a fence. I was not delayed on my journey by more than a few minutes. I was hugely aware that the incident could have been so very much more serious and drove carefully and more slowly after that.
Angels? I didn’t think so at the time. I took them for local farmers who were perhaps on their way home from the pub or something. I never took them for other than human beings. But the whole event seemed completely miraculous to me: that I was uninjured, my car undamaged, and these men with the perfect vehicle and the perfect equipment arrived at the perfect time to haul my car out. I still think they were just men – but who knows?
Another much more recent incident. Another country. A friend (another exWayfer) was coming to visit for the weekend. He caught the train and I went to meet him at the local station. But he was engrossed in conversation with someone on the train ("witnessing") and although he could see me banging on the window, didn’t recognise me in time and the train departed the station, he still on the train. I didn’t know what to do. He might have been able to catch another train back from the next station – if there was a “next train” at that hour of the night. I mused what to do and then decided to head for the next station anyway. It’s about 10 miles away. By this time the train had a good head start. The journey by car to the next station is along narrow country lanes, very dark, very winding, and I didn’t know where the station was, exactly. I put my foot down and soon reached the town and the station was clearly marked. As I got there, a train was just about to depart for where I had just come from. Was my friend on it, going back? I ran the length of the train to see but it drew away.
I dawdled round the tiny station and crossed the bridge to the other platform, wondering what to do now. I decided to go back to my car. As I crossed the bridge back… a train drew in on the other platform. It was the train that had just left where my friend should have got off. My name was called. My friend had got off the train and was calling to me. I don’t know how he did this as he wouldn’t have been expecting me at the next station.
How did this happen? I know I drove very fast (ignoring speed limits), and there was no other traffic on the road in either direction. And the train’s route is somewhat longer than the road route. But still… it was weird. And the car journey took much less time than it should have done. My friend is convinced my car was “angel propelled”. Maybe he is right. Or maybe it was all just happy coincidence.
We had a really good weekend together. He is still laughing about my angel-propelled car.
He says he has had angel intervention on his behalf on a couple of occasions and the tales he tells echo those on this thread, sudden intervention by a stranger from nowhere at a time of need, and then the stranger is nowhere to be found.
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Eyesopen
I dont know Twinky, I think I would like to see what kind of emissions your car gives off now that its been cleaned out by Angel propulsion!
My parents came from large families as did their parents and I am also from a large family. So when making meals when I was young mom would always have some huge pot simmering full of something on the stove. But as the years went on her large brood thinned down considerably until at last all that was left was yours truly the baby of the family. Mom adjusted her pot size to accomodate the smaller family but still we would find ourselves eating a meal several days in a row. So I asked her why she continued to make so much and her answer both surprised me and continues to stay on my mind to this day and it causes me to see things from a different point of view. She told me that her mother had taught her to always make enough food so that if you should be so blessed you may entertain Angels unaware and have enough to go around. She sited for me the verse and to this day I always make enough food for more than one meal...just in case.
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Eyesopen
Woo Hoo! Look we got moved! Is that a good thing?
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dmiller
OK -- I thought I was done with this thread,
but I've got an *unscratched itch* here that needs to be addressed.
The furthest thing from my mind was asking *Are you an Angel?* when help arrived on the road.
They were there, I needed help, and they offered it, and I wasn't about to ask for their I.D.
The fact that they disappeared so COMPLETELY in a matter of 2 seconds, did get me to wondering.
But I waited to think about it until I got *home*. Still had a snow covered road to deal with.
The more I thought about it afterwards, I realized there was NO way they could've disappeared that fast.
I could see up the road behind me for 100 yards easily, and there was zip, nada, nothing, zilch,
where 2 seconds earlier there had been 3 guys pushing me out of the snow drift,
that they would have had to slog through to get to their vehicle (which I didn't see either).
Now --- as pertains to experience #2 --- There was NEVER a need to ask for ID there.
It was purty dag gum obvious where it came from. It's not every day I see the name of a friend of mine,
in HUGE letters hanging out over my back yard, especially if I just prayed for help.
So --- now to get to my *unscratched itch*, and it involves docvic and his teachings about angels.
IF I RECOLLECT CORRECT (someone correct me if I am wrong):
we were taught that angels were *protecting spirits* UNTIL WE WERE BORN AGAIN.
After that ---- (sigh!) we only had the *Christ in Us*, and the Angel band left en masse.
No *protection* whatsoever provided by the Father,
like He's done for folks throughout the ages for His believers.
Good ole docvic preached the law of believing more than he did the Gospel of Christ.
But -- I'm not shedding *new light here*. Anyone with half a brain can see the inconsistencies.
I hung onto that angel teaching for years that docvic spewed. He messed up.
Plain and simple --- he messed up BIG TIME on this one.
I (personally) think he forgot to mention that Jesus Christ was/is in charge.
As second in command ( A Joseph to Pharaoh thing), He's in command of the *troops*.
Why would they be *decommissioned* once some one believes?? Makes ZERO sense to me.
So --- as a result --- I have NO problem listening to an angel story.
Docvic and his fabulous fairy tale train can ride the rails, and (hopefully) get de-railed.
His self serving ego allowed him to tell US what was, and what wasn't.
And (I for one), bought into that lie, just like many others he told.
So if I hear an *angel story* these days, I don't listen with skepticism.
I was taught a negative concept about angels, (once upon a time),
but see if I believe that fairy tale (these days). :)
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Mark Clarke
Before we were married, my wife had an encounter. She was walking home one night on a deserted street when a guy grabbed her from behind, and held a knife to her throat. He then took her backback and threw her to the ground. He left her there, but started to come back when she got up. Trying to get away, my wife limped to the curb and, looking both ways, saw there was no traffic in either direction. She turned back and saw the guy coming toward her, then turned back to the street and suddenly there was a car not more than five feet from her, with two people in it. They pulled up and stopped, and one of them got out. The guy chasing her ran off. They had her get in the car, asking if she was OK. Her neck was bleeding, so they took her to the hospital. She got out of the car and started walking toward the ER entrance, but when she turned back to see if they were coming, they were gone. The cut on her neck required stitches and they were concerned that there might have been damage to her vocal cords, as she kept getting hoarse. Eventually everything healed OK though. She still has a very faint scar on her neck, but it's at a crease so it's barely visible. The day after the incident, once the shock wore off and she thought over the incident, she knew the people in the car were angels.
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dmiller
Here's a song --- that's kinda appropriate to this thread ----- >>>
Angel Band
;)
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cheranne
Angels Watching Over Me(thats a good song but I can't post it for some reason on this site)
Amy Grant sings it.
When my kids were little and getting on the school bus I would always pray with them every morning
and for an angel to be riding on top of the school bus!
They would just imagine an angel riding on the bus and when there was a storm there would be some
on top of the house.
They still believe in Angels. I know I always will.
Angel food cake all around!
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dmiller
OKC ---- here ya go. ;)
Angels Watching Over Me
:)
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Twinky
Dmiller said:
For sure there aren’t many references to Angels in the NT but then there aren’t generally in the Bible. Here are some references in Acts and subsequently there are lots of references in Revelation, which are obviously a little different, and clearly angels are very busy then whereas our role is not mentioned!
But hey, Peter and Philip among others received visits and assistance from angels. Are Peter and Philip more deserving, that they get special treatment?
We were taught that the power of God as shown in Acts is still available. So why not the supporting cast as well? What Wierwille taught on this is rubbish. Angels were around and still are around. Maybe their job description has changed a little in respect of those born again; maybe not. Those references in Rev 2 and 3 suggest in fact that angels have a very specific responsibility to care for the "church" to which they are assigned. (Was the angel assigned to TWI doing a good job? LOL)
There are probably a whole lot more incidents where angels have helped believers and unbelievers alike but simply not been recognised.
Ac 5:19 - But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said,
Ac 8:26 - And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
Ac 10:3 - He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
Ac 10:7 - And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
Ac 10:22 - And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
Ac 11:13 - And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Ac 12:7 - And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands.
Ac 12:8 - And the angel said unto him, Gird thyself, and bind on thy sandals. And so he did. And he saith unto him, Cast thy garment about thee, and follow me.
Ac 12:9 - And he went out, and followed him; and wist not that it was true which was done by the angel; but thought he saw a vision.
Ac 12:10 - When they were past the first and the second ward, they came unto the iron gate that leadeth unto the city; which opened to them of his own accord: and they went out, and passed on through one street; and forthwith the angel departed from him.
Ac 12:11 - And when Peter was come to himself, he said, Now I know of a surety, that the Lord hath sent his angel, and hath delivered me out of the hand of Herod, and from all the expectation of the people of the Jews.
Ac 27:23 - For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,
Ga 1:8 - But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Re 1:1 - The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Re 2:1 - Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
Re 2:8 - And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Re 2:12 - And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
Re 2:18 - And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
Re 3:1 - And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Re 3:7 - And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Re 3:14 - And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Re 22:8 - And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Re 22:16 - I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
And of course, this one, which “doesn’t apply to us”:
Heb 13:2 - Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
Wierwille based his view of angels on this verse:
Heb 1:14 - Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
As "shall be" is in the future, he reasoned, once we are the heirs of salvation the future in that respect has been attained. But we haven't fully attained salvation and infact "the gift of holy spirit" is itself expressed to be only a token or an earnest. In fact, legally an "heir" is the one who will inherit something in the future - not the one who already has it. (But I didn't check the Greek word on this, maybe heirs is just an approximate translation.)
And the context of Heb 14 is not so much concerned with *us* as with the Lord Jesus Christ.
(edited to add the Heb 1:14 reference, which I couldn't remember the reference for, originally)
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cheranne
Gee,thank you!
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Sudo
Sunesis,
If that man was an angel, he lied to you I noticed.
sudo
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waysider
Yes, David that is how recall it as well.
(Except, I think it was taught that the "guardian angels" only watched over us until we reached the age of accountability or until we were born again if that came first.) I seem to recall it was a very short section of scripture in Hebrews that was used to supposedly "prove" this.
This was also used back-handedly to reinforce the fear of leaving "The Household".
(ie:) If you leave, there will be no angels to help, only Christ in you.
But the catch was that it very difficult(maybe impossible, don't recall) to "connect" with the Christ in you when you are "out of fellowship" which, of course, you would be by leaving the household. So, by virtue of logic, leaving the household put you in a situation where the Christ in you was like money in the bank you couldn't withdraw. Ergo, if you want the power of God in your life, you can never leave.
TWI was a sick and twisted way of life. (IMO)
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Mark Clarke
It was Hebrews 1:13-14.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
It's certainly a stretch to interpret this as meaning that they no longer ministered to us after we were born again.
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Eyesopen
Well we all know (experiencially) that twi was very good at streeeeeetchhhinggg verses of the bible to make it say what they wanted all the while telling us that 'others' did this very same thing.
You know I didnt ask my Angel for his ID...but that was because I was too busy flapping my gums at him. Poor soul! He had to have pulled the short stick!
Sometimes I wonder what it is like seeing the world and mankind as a whole from their point of view. They are charged with watching over us...do they make more rescues like so many of you have described than say a hundred years ago? Are they jealous of us or feel sorry for us? Do they like their jobs? What will they do when this world is done away and the next begins? VP made it sound like they were lesser beings than us but I think that they are just different beings than us.
Ok I'll stop thinking out loud now.
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Rocky
I believe a lot of them (angels) work as RN's.
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