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Or perhaps old puke from last night's bad drunk. It's still fun to make fun of memories of them worshiping over the porcelain god and speaking in liquid screams. Shot 'o Drambuie anyone?

What happened to all my prayers? Ya know, before I ever heard of The Way, I had no idea my prayers were second rate. Then I got witnessed to and found out I had it all wrong. See, you can't actually talk to God like you talk to everyone else. You have to have this special language, that they speak in the land of Lo Shanta, or God won't have a clue what you're talking about.And, God can't talk back to you either unless you talk to yourself in this new language lots and lots every day. And you have to make a real effort to expand your vocabulary, too, or God will just keep telling you the same stuff over and over again. Heck, I've even heard people say they prayed to God for answers (without the Lo Shanta stuff) and, presto, someone from TWI appeared to invite them to Twig and sign them up for PLAF. But, how can that be if God can't understand your prayers in the first place? So then my question is this: What happened to all those prayers I said before I heard of TWI?

In my former splinter group (River Road Fellowship as led by V. Barnard) we did the whole, "We are a whole world unto ourselves, isolated in a rural area" thing and it $ucked bigtime. Every perception of truth was tightly controlled by the supposed Apostle. It seemed to me like over time things just got more and more warped. Eventually it was heresy to even question such "apostolic" blunders as him teaching the Lord would return in 1997, 2000, uh er...2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, and even the latest that I've heard on the grapevine 2011. Not to mention the oppressive atmosphere which led to such unfortunate things as teenage girls announcing in fellowship that,"I am married to the Christ in Victor." So while they constantly congradulate themselves among themselves it seems pretty obvious to me that they only grew more dangerous and absurd as time went on. And I really don't think they'd openly come around GSC to state their case either, but they'd say it was because of all they "unbelief" here at GSC I'm sure. But I am certain it is because that even though they imagine themselves to be winners that they would simply be confronted for what they really are. I feel justified in my concerns for Caleb and his fellows.

So without further response from Caleb is this how we are to see this exchange end? One young man takes a small step out of the Mississipi swamp and into a place where all his beliefs he must knew may be challeged. He gives an aggressive post with a direct threat while claiming he will be handling questions and conversations for months to come. And as soon as a teany little bit of heat arrives he steps out, omly to never be heard from again. OMG I would like to believe the young man is o.k., but nobody that knows anything is saying! Is he being shut in with a bunch of faithful for a patented TWI style "healing". Are they mad at us enough to foolishly desire to carry out the feelings of anger in the initial post? Is the young man strong enough to realize that our intentions were for his own good and it may be that his "manoGod" is the real villain? But even though v2p2 may well be carrying out that role I do personally feel compassion for a young man who himself has been indoctrinated into his supposed life's purpose. TOO MANY QUESTIONS, TOO FEW ANSWERS. IMO

Maybe irrelevant.

Its not old news for all of us that gave our time & money for a rot hole place called THE WAY INTERNATIONAL that claimed to be a place of god. It wont be old news until no one is standing for or preaching their crap and that land in ohio is washed away . and only then will it be old news !!

Oh for Pete's sake, Oldies..........quit SPINNING and DANCING around the room. Wierwille BETRAYED his committed followers......most notably, the WOWs and the Corps. As a young and naive WOW, catcup's sister came face-to-face with wierwille's sexual motorcoach lusts and, when she refused, she was kicked off the WOW field. And, its well documented on the forums how wierwille went after the Corps women..!!!!! Can't you see the snare...??? With no accountability for his actions......and being in a well-protected, multi-tiered yes-men hierarchy, wierwille's TRUE COLORS CAME FORTH. What he was.......behind closed doors..... was his TRUE CHARACTER. Those public appearances were just showmanship......no more, no less. Wierwille BETRAYED "his" corps........he sold many of us down the river. He couldn't even keep his commitment to us regarding THE CORPS CHALET. He gave it to his top yes-boy......craig. There is a HUGE chasm between............freely serving God without compulsion as opposed to being manipulated by a con-man who winks with his eyes and speaks with his fingers (Proverbs reference). But hey.........if you, Oldies, want to stay deceived about "the good ole way-daze" have at it. Doesn't look like too many folks here are buying what you are attempting to sell.

Too late for Ham - my daughter (who sent me the original) is already assembling her legion masses. Be nice when they arrive - my daughter (and son) are more twisted than me by a long shot

I pick HAM as the obvious choice as generalisimo of this elite force.

They remind me a little of "tribbles".!!!

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."-George Santayana. As long as there's one person suffering from twi (an insider, a family member outside cut off from an insider, and so on), twi is relevant to someone. twi is making a lot FEWER people suffer- and was never a large organization to begin with- but to have ONE person suffer is still too many. On the other hand, twi's legacy is an excellent source of suffering, if one wishes to find more modern, up-to-date suffering. Some of its successors have taken "the best" of the tools for suffering still available, and have started over, without apology and without concern they won't end up the same way as the group they left.

that seemed to be typical of the behavior expected of wives. we were supposed to hold it in until AFTER the meeting. our submission was more important than the truth. the public image of our man was more important than protecting the innocent from false accusations. Jo$ephine, you should be ashamed of yourself. you could leave, you know that, and do something worthwhile with your life. M@rk, someday you'll pay dearly for the lies you tell. lying is bad. didn't you get that memo, the one from God? or were you out to lunch when it was passed around?

The W@ll@ces make it a practice of lying or witholding the truth whenever it serves their purposes. J0:)sephine remained silent in a meeting when M@rk made an accusation against me she knew to be false. However, for her to contradict him in this meeting would have exposed a serious communication flaw between them, so despite me staring at her and waiting for her to speak up, she refused to look at me and remained silent while her husband's false accusations flew. So typical of their behavior. So typical of TWI. Yeah, real quality folks doing a quality job for their god.

First off brainfixed I have to tell you. . . I tapped my daughter once on a very padded nappy and promptly burst into tears. She in turn just looked at me then continued on her way. That was our one and only experience with the wooden spoon. I truly never saw anyone beat their child with a wooden spoon or belittle them in a public setting. I was around many parents and children. That is not to say it didn't happen, but not anywhere I ever lived. . . . that I witnessed. . . . You know, TWI wasn't a church, or a social group, or a nice little bible ministry gone bad. . . it was actually a cult. There are some interesting studies done about what happened to those of us involved in TWI. In fact, there is a thread around here called. . . TWI-induced SNAPPING, Detrimental, abrupt personality & self-image change If I knew how to link to it I would, but you can do a search on "Snapping" and easily find it. I think that Waysider brought it up once on another thread called Snapping. It might help you to understand that your mom. . . was actually a victim too. It may seem like she made all her own choices. . . it might be an interesting consideration to learn what might have happened to her in TWI. I am not so sure your mom would have been the same had she joined another church or participated in another ministry. It is quite a reaction to talk about hurling. . . or vomiting out your eyes. . . or beating Jesus in the face. . . it really might be helpful to get some more information on what took place in your Mom's head. Maybe it will help you look at her with a bit more understanding. . . and work through some of your anger. I read your responses to Roy in the doctrinal forum. . . seems you have great capacity for understanding the human condition. . . . Check out those threads!! :)

I just don't see a difference between lcm and today's wayfers. What he deserves, they deserve.

I think that sums it up nicely...It would appear to some that Whitedove deliberately hijacks threads and leads them into his cul de sac of illogic. It's the same argument over and over...I think this kind of disruption should be unwelcome here.

they probably aren't, but I can't overlook the fact that they're a bunch of bullies :) plus, OM tattled, and I'd hate to see a legit eBay seller dogged by twi

ok, so your quote above, WD, (from here http://www.aallnet.org/committee/copyright.../firstsale.html or one of the other urls that has copied it) deals specifically with the issues of first sale as it relates to digital copies. I wouldn't consider their terminology the final word on what constitutes "first sale" since the article doesn't deal with the nuances of rights of exhaustion. that's why I suggested you try to keep up, because bending definitions to suit yourself is you M.O. and you're ignoring information that's already been provided. it would be better to consult with the copyright code itself: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#106 other transfer of ownership includes gifts, as established by case law. see http://www.altlaw.org/v1/cases/440377 paragraphs 11 and 34 therefore, we are back to the real issue, which is if twi "rented, leased or lent" the copy, they will have a signed contract stating those are the terms. otherwise, the copies were gifts, unless it can be demonstrated that they were stolen, in which case anyone twi accuses in court would have presumption of innocence and the burden would be on twi to prove that the tapes were stolen, provided the statute of limitations hasn't run out. it also might help to keep the statutes of limitations for ohio in mind, although if the tapes were given to individuals in other states the prosecution may have to take place in the court where the crime supposedly took place. Ohio limitations http://www.clelaw.lib.oh.us/Public/Misc/FA...imitations.html

actually, I don't. I don't respond much to what you say because I usually don't have the time to analyze run-on sentences without punctuation that change subject and object midstream and I'd rather not mistake what someone is trying to say. I already apologized for misconstruing your statements as implications against women who were forced to have sex under duress (which in many states IS considered rape, never mind the girls who were drugged, and I'm not going to go through and pick out posts for you when you can read the information already provided, which if you did, you'd realize how ridiculous your claim is that excathedra is the only person to name vpw as a sexual predator who committed sexual crimes against her).

actually, for the record, the claims have been documented. methinks you should go back and read the federal rules of evidence again. at this point, in a court of law, the documented testimony of vpw's victims would have to be proven false, so this entire discussion is based on an ignorant and/or misinformed assumption of what VPW's rights are as a deceased citizen of the US.

Potato, Let me ask you a sincere question. Do you think that holding fast to faith in Jesus is equal to being afraid of looking at other points of view? You didn't say that. . . . so, I assume nothing here, :) I am just curious about the wording. I went to 3 excellent and diverse colleges. . . . one of them a women's school. . . spent nearly year at Oxford and have met every kind of person imaginable. I have lived with a family from India who were Hindu. I have been lucky to travel a bit. . . . meet some well known figures. Hubby met the former president of South Africa. . . We have met more than one famous politician from both sides of the aisle. CEO's to homeless and prisoners. While my daughter was growing up, she celebrated most Jewish Holy days at one time or another. My son, before he was homeschooled, went to an independent progressive school, which roots were based in the celebration of spiritual diversity. Meaning, each faith was equally explored and respected. He was surrounded by those of different faiths. . . in turn we were as well. He has been Bar Mitzvah's and Solstice celebrations. Hubby built a "sacred circle" once for a woman who wanted a place in her backyard to celebrate her faith and to display her Godesses. I sat in there with her as she explained to me all she was trying to express. More art than anything spiritual, but still, she believed it. I have been to Temple many times. We have more than one gay friend. Hubby goes and shovels out our friends in the next town. . . they are older and disabled. . . a married lesbian couple. Friends. I have shopped at Harrods and the Salvation Army. Had meals with very well known theologians and apologists. Coffee with Rabbis and visited Buddahist Monks. I have been to a monastary outside of Gloucester England. Celebrated Mass there. Heck, we even know a famous 60's icon. My mother practiced witchcraft when I was growing up. My father is an atheist who takes every opportunity to mock religion. We have worked hard on behalf of the persecuted church. Been to the UN. We were friends with a Muslim family whose daughter was in grade school with my son. Well, until their son killed my other friends rabbit with acid. . . long story. I was in a cult. :) The list is long. I wonder if you think that because one holds fast to faith they are closed minded? It isn't a religion. It is not theology. It is not biblical principals. It is faith in a person. Actual, real, and alive. It is similar to a marriage. It is a love relationship and a monogomous one at that. But, consider being happily wed, deeply in love, fufilled and nurtured, satisfied and complete. Also, assured and supplied for. . . lacking nothing because of this person. Think about being so loved everyday, known completely and still accepted. We all strive to be better people. . . right? Think about this person knowing exactly how to gently teach you to be better, and being able to work these lessons into your life. Think about a someone so close. . . He dwells in you. In your heart. Someone so perfect and shines so gloriously you actually worship this person. This person never grows cold to you or loses that love for you. He is faithful and perfect, and doesn't change. He always loves you and is always there. He brings you joy and comforts you in sorrow. He promises we can spend eternity with Him. That our relationship will never end. He promises to ready us for this. Then think about how tempting it would be to shop around for something better. Especially if you already have and never found anything so perfect. It wouldn't be tempting. Not in the least. But, that doesn't mean you can't be friends with others, or love them. Who is going to be the ones you are very close to? The ones who also know Him. You are able to share the worship and adoration you have for Him with those who also know Him personally. H equips us to love others by being so loved. This would mean, others of all backgrounds. Even those who persecute you. If we have finally found that which satisfies that hunger in us. . . and He has proven Himself worthy of our faithfulness. . . by being faithful. . . . He has shown Himself and He is worthy. . . So worthy God has made Him Master over ALL things. . .such devotion and single-heartedness is not really out of line. . . . all the while I know my attempts to reciprocate pale in comparison to His. . . yet He accepts them. . . .and we commune. . . why would look anywhere else? Moreover, He will never become boring or disappointing or frustrating. . . because there is no greater treasure conceived than the Son of God. My ability to savor this inexhaustible treasure is not even limited by my human weakness. So, I am already spoken for. I don't have to look anymore. Just as the Father delights in His Son. . . so do we. We delight with God in His glory. Call me crazy. . . and it wouldn't be the first time :) but I am sticking with Jesus. . . He hasn't let me down yet! Oh and Mark, this is what they show you in the churches you say the gospel is missing in. . . . sorry, but that is an amazing and misguided statement.

As far as the comments about ranting day after day about crimes committed.....well there are some here who have had life long impact from what happened in twi....things that can never be fixed...families estranged, children who struggle, childlesness...issues with trust..... Darned tootin we will still talk about it.

"The context was VPW." 'Nother words----It's all about upholding the innocence of VPW. WD doesn't seem to really be concerned about you, me, or the poor kids in Alaska who suffered at the hands of a known pedophile due to the negligence of TWI. What he is concerned about (IMO) is maintaining the image of VP Wierwille in an unblemished state.

Well said Ham, *not caring what their actions produce*. TWI doctrine made it excusable and acceptable when vp was drugging and raping....on the leaders when preying on and stealing from and then turning their backs on the very people they promised to help....and now decades later in the tactics engaged in the attempted cover up of the sins and crimes committed....The doctrine even gives them God`s seal of approval. What a legacy.

Obviously...your desire to defend VP Wierwille is apparent to all... A plagiarist, a liar, a drunk and an adulterer....this is the path YOU have chosen...it should be obvious to you that you are in an anti twi website...why bother?...

wheras in the first part of the argument for the plaintiff Mr. VPW, WD again puts forth the claim that the victims of sexual abuse at the hands of the plaintiff have fabricated their testimony, yet fails to offer any evidence of his claim: being as their testimony is full of facts, and that consistent testimony is given into evidence, said evidence is accepted as factual in the absence of contradicting evidence. wheras in the second part, WD confuses the process of law with the facts of case, and we the people offer into evidence testimony by Mr. Webster that proves someone CAN be guilty without ever stepping into a courtroom: Webster says:

ok, I had to go back and read some of your posts, because I seriously don't get your line of questioning. you were on staff, you were involved during the lcm trainwreck. yeah, it's unbelievable that anyone would join during those years. I think I got involved before what became known as "the fog years", but only superficially. it was after I accidentally married someone with a personality disorder that I got sucked into the twi machine. I guess you maintain disbelief that people get lured into twi's inner circle of hell, like a pedophile luring a child with a tale of a lost puppy, but yeah, people are that naive, or they're willing to ignore the warning signs because IT'S A LOST PUPPY FOR CHRIST'S SAKE!

sigh. ok, l thought you were once in twi. were you not? I don't understand your line of questioning. you come across as ignorant, or baiting. which?

Hi, shiftthis Thanks for your response. I hope you don't mind;I've taken the liberty of reformatting your response for easier readability. If you would prefer I not do that in the future, just say the word. *************************** got in the way in 1980 had some good leaders had some mean leaders, when the twig i was in split off from twi in 1987 i stayed with it ( the independent fellowship) when the independent fellowship ceased to exhist after several years i found a twi fellowship to attend, then i moved a few years later and attended a twi fellowship with a major "A" of a coordinator , i spoke up about him and he was fired and we got a nice new coordinator, a year or so later martindale wanted a superclean household and for some unknown reason i was booted out, a few years later i met up with someone in twi i had known and was told about lcm being fired and decided to start going to twi again, boy was i surprised to find this was not my grandpas ministry (I am my own grandpa,i got proof i was born in mississippi !!!) that was 2001 and as far as i know to this day peole who would hurt or be major "A" 's are not tolerated, yeah i got hurt a few times and so did others at the mouths of those that never should have ben put up with ,but it took lowely believers like me not being afraid to speak up i'v ben on both sides the independents and twi and have experenced hurt from both, if the way ceased to exhist i'd find others who would rightly divide the word and go to there fellowship, GOD looks on the heart and not at what church you go to , now i must go and see if i can find some old friends here , i already got united with a few a while back i got friends in all kinds of groups , GOD bless you, btw GOD also rides in a FORD !!!!

Well ...aside from being sickened and offended at drugging, seduction, rape, child abuse, families destroyed and death of people at the hands of this man and the men he trained...being laid at the feet of God...that these people had it coming as a matter of course...whew I guess that I am amazed at the evil that can be excused, condoned and ignored in this man in order for ones theology to have any credibility. All in all, the callousness required to believe this makes me very very sad.

Ya know, I'm just curious. What does PFAL say we should expect of our ministers and teachers? Seems like we ought to go there and see if it's going to be our "only rule---".

the only way I know of to get to newspaper archives is call the local historical society or public library. they can usually help you get to the right place... but, it costs some money to get a researcher to go in and copy everything for you, or a couple of days of your time to scan microfiche (unless they've been digitized and are available to order on CD). it's been a while since I did that kind of research. I don't see this as reinventing the wheel. Juedes' article with citations doesn't seem to be complete, and it would be nice to see what can be put online for everyone to see.

thanks for posting the link. I REALLY enjoyed the smug tone regarding finances. let's see.... I loved the thing about the rich and their foundations, but that we should start giving now because why wait? it seems they completely ignore the value of volunteer work, or donations of used clothing instead of tossing stuff in the trash, or the value of helping someone get back on their feet after a crisis. it's only the money tithe that counts, I guess. this just made me laugh: seriously, Angela! how is it such a good deal to pay rent so your landlord can make repairs? it's not helping you build equity, whereas the costs of maintenance do. and you ARE paying taxes when you rent, you just pay them to your landlord so he/she can pay the bill. no one says I have to own a home, but NO ONE SHOULD TELL ME I CAN'T. Gary's point about getting free stuff is dumb. I got furniture for free, too, that stuff gets passed around as people upgrade, but when my ex ditched our kids, no one in twi would even babysit for me so I could go to classes or work on no-school days because they'd only babysit for my ex when he had the kids, because he went on such a campaign of hateful backbiting against me. sometimes you don't need stuff, you need a helping hand to stay on your feet so you can get back on top of things after a disaster. oh, but even though I had to move and we were homeless for months, I managed to hang onto my car, which is now totally paid for. first time in my life I ever had a car that's run consistently, and when I add it up, financing the car cost me less each year than it ever had when I was buying cars for cash, because what I could buy for the equivalent of a down payment typically lasted a year to 18 months and needed lots of work to keep it going. one of twi's great lies: "We can't always control how much is coming in," Gary said, "but we can always control what is going out." no Gary, you can't always control what's going out.

it's reruns of seaspray, circa 2003.

I took every class except dealing with the adversary (I took the lcm version defeating the adversary). for some reason I don't remember lcm's version of christian family and sex, although I know I took it. I do remember the coulter's class. it was so awful it was one of the 4 events that led to my decision to leave twi. one thing I do remember is that syllabi changed regularly. grads were supplied new syllabus pages and directed to throw away the old ones. I don't remember how long my cfs syllabus was, but eventually I'll dig it out of my garage and find out.

Well, seeing as how the emminent "doctor's" WURD's chief fan at this website has come right out and declared that he willfully utilizes a logical falacy in order to ferret out the great truths in the Vicster's written legacy (see "Begging the question" at "skepdic.com"), I guess it's not too hard to completely dismiss his earthshattering "research". Persuing such a depraved agenda eventually HAS to take a toll on one's mental health, though, wouldn't you think? It's so sad when you think about all the wasted effort that has gone down the rat hole. Time could be better spent doing just about anything, grooming roadkill, polishing firehydrants, or maybe making dentures for chickens. ANYTHING else would make more sense...

WW: Did vpw claim the Scriptures were "catastrophically lost"? Mike: Yes, he implied it, and my use of that word fits if it's true what he said about the originals being lost. WW: Did he say that what's in the originals is "ANYBODY'S GUESS"? Mike: I use my own words at times to give the gist of the words he used. I stand by them. Mike: VPW implied we could get back to the originals if we stuck with his 1942 guidance. this seems to go beyond Mike's personal opinion and into a critical analysis of what vpw meant when he said certain things... things that Mike can't personally know because he didn't discuss them with vpw. Mike is implying that the only way to get back to the "original meaning" is by accepting that vpw's accounts of the alleged revelation and snowstorm in 1942 are true, and that there is no other way to get to the heart of god. Mike, sounds to me like you're claiming to be a prophet, since you claim to have special insight into what vpw meant.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/12/19/milgr...ence/index.html

Maybe Grandpa Sr. but there lies grandson in Miss. The nightmare continues. Let's pray VPW the 2nd doesn't marry anyone named Dorethea/Dotsie my bad(no disrespect to his grandmother intended).

Don't worry...when you wake up, Wierwille will still be dead.

Someone posted this information about a year ago.

Now I would have loved seeing Wierwille, Martindale, and/or Geer getting that "squid pie" .

Your ABS dollars at work

They(twi) did not CARE how you got the money to them,as long as they got their money,Oh and it better not be late,or you are slothful.You will be reproved,humiliated,marked out.Ok we reproved you,Where is the next check?Increase it to15 percent or god will not spit in your direction. Gods work you say?Why! It is gods work for me to have a 2000 dollar suit,and 250 dollar shoes,riding in a brand new Lincoln mark.To hell with the needs of the "believers".Oh and God bless you,You are the best!!

Published in 1996, Mrs. Wierwille's book was strategically sanitized for twi's cult-consumption...........and even then, several "gems of understanding" slipped thru the filtering to disclose major flaws in documenting mr. wierwille as the man of God with new light.

:biglaugh:

pppfffftttttt

I hope so, Lifted Up.

Oakspear, in my opinion how much a follower invested is a huge factor – as well as what was their bottom line, what items were negotiable, etc.! Excellent points!!!...interesting…I started looking at this in terms of a business deal…Some people when they get burned on a bad investment will garner what lessons can be learned from the experience, and move on. Bet they won’t make a mistake like that again.

Here are 2 words I would like to throw into the mix:Brain Washing. Oh,sorry,Brainwashing is only one word. Never mind, back to the discussion of why memories often vary.