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Back to process a little more with you kind smart supportive ppl. The deep meaningful attachments to past way leaders are the toughest I find, to handle. I know it is like family members that one is contemplating breaking contact with (to varying degrees) due to toxic behaviors, etc. E.g. the minister, G.E., a Very Good Friend, who married my (now ex-)h and me, and was honored and excited b/c he had just been put on full time staff as our Branch was growing; we were his first of three couples to marry that spring; G.E. then dedicated both of our children in the hospital after difficult deliveries; and he virtually gave his window cleaning business to my h. ALL of the weddings, ALL of the showers, ALL of the baby dedications, ALL of the meetings, ETC ETC ETC in our closely-knit fellowship that our branch coordinators supported... Then came the Loyalty Oath; agreeing with G.E. and becoming Geer-ites; being marked and avoided by 1/2 of those dear friends... ALL of the following havoc- divorce, trauma with the kids, etc etc. Now thanks in large part to wonderful posters here at GSC, I am finally and fully identifying vpw's terrible abuses, wrong doctrine, and my naivete/misplaced trust, and how the demise of the way ministry was inevitable. I just became a full partner (member) in a local church b/c it is much safer, open, and more soundly based than the way EVER was. B/c of the PTSD I still have from the unsafe attachings, it is all part of the recovery process, apparently, to evaluate how much to interact w/ old way friends when the opportunity still pops up from time to time. FB is a great way to say Hi, like things, restore some of the connections from a distance. Guess I will still play it Very Safe, and carefully pick and choose what happens IRL; and be ready to exit if I trigger from anxiety (flight), or want to explode (fight) if someone starts defending vp, e.g. Oh BOY! The Best Part about this Whole Process has been learning about how my Father, my Comforter, and my Jesus are fully functioning as Safe Present Nurturing Guiding places/beings to Fully Attach to and Trust In!! Just sayin' for anyone who has taken this spiritual path... THANKS MUCH for listening!! Best to all here!! Onward!!

Hello. If you want to socialize, we have game threads still going in the Games forum, and you are still welcome to join. "From 2002-2008 I was an advocate here that we return to PFAL to see how much we missed the first time(s), and to see how much we forgot or drifted from. I am convinced that 99% of all the woes reported here are due to us all NOT GETTING IT RIGHT the first times." You also outright contradicted the Orange Book in a few major issues- like vpw claiming we could get to the originals and how we could do that, and you saying we could NOT, and vpw saying something like 90% of Scripture means just what it says, and you saying the meanings are hidden, and vpw saying the class (book, once edited) was a class of KEYS and was to UNDERSTAND Genesis to Revelation but not to replace them, and you said it DID replace Genesis to Revelation. You said a lot of things, and usually switched to vague, uninformative wordings in order to obscure either a lack of substance or outright contradicting pfal while explaining pfal. Most of us here were around to see all of that, but a few new people may have missed it. For those people, I'd like to add that I in no way exaggerated what he said nor misrepresented it. Most people who have passed through these metaphorical doors are convinced that the problems were due to vpw violating the Bible and fair moral and legal codes while claiming he was our spiritual leader, and teaching his disciples to be two-fold the child of hell that he was- although, frankly, few matched in in that respect. Most actually cared about people, and only a tiny handful were that sociopathic or that fanatical to match him. You reluctantly agreed he wasn't perfect, but credited that to him being "OVERgifted" probably due to him being "born with an overabundance of brains and brawn" and "where he walked, the earth shook." (Seriously, those were his words, not mine.) You said the keys to getting it right were the hidden keys to pfal you knew and none of us did, and that the failure to get it right wasn't due primarily to pfal being a flawed product. "In those years I was only able to get a very small few of the GreaseSpotters to view things this way. The few of us came back to PFAL, this first wave of us, found it to be better than when we originally enjoyed it. " There were fewer people in your new group than in the "Heavens Gate" comet watchers, or so many other groups convinced they were there primarily due to some secret they know. The US is loaded with people who think they know "the secret" to what's really going on. Thousands of people believe that. The great obscurity of your product, and the requirement that one have fond, nostalgic twi memories seriously limits the target audience of the public. " I predicted back here at GreaseSpot then that I was only dealing with the "First Wave" of those returning to PFAL. " Nostalgia arrives in waves with decades. That's true regardless of content. And calling a handful of people a "first wave" shows a disregard for the term "wave." [To be followed with claims he did not, then later claims he was metaphorical in some way and that I failed to understand him, then later claims it was deliberate so someone could "spring his trap." Some of these posts follow VERY predictable patterns- like Mike returning after being refuted completely and claiming that his last visit showed him coming up with answers to everything and coming off unscathed.] "About 2 or 3 years ago I started seeing lots of Facebook Groups being started by lots of pro-PFAL people, and many comments by other pro-PFAL people. " Defining "pro-pfal" can change who is meant by a lot. By some definitions, that would include ME. Also, "many" is a remarkably vague term. "The number of Facebook Groups" is a lot like when twi defined a 5-person graduating class ENTIRELY by which percentage was going on to do what- 20% to do this, 20% to do that, which was 1 person each time. Facebook groups can be of a single person and a tiny, occasional audience. They also OVERLAP a lot- so 10 Facebook groups on this probably include 80% overlap- or more- of their audiences. "Every now and then a nay-sayer chimes in, but it's obvious how ineffective they are." Isn't it amazing how ineffective a naysayer can be, when they show up at a venue with a purpose to which they are diametrically opposed? ""After 35+ years now, lots of people are done comparing the flurry of clone classes that cropped up after 1986, and have found they fall way short of the original." That's not what they themselves are saying- that's your opinion of what they are doing. Their own answers would be quite different, and NOT rely on vpw, pfal, or anything involving a farm outside New Knoxville, in most cases. BTW, out of the supposed 100,000 people who took pfal, there are perhaps a few HUNDRED, at most, who are doing the splinter thing, with another few hundred if you include twi and SOWERS and so on, the groups with the authoritarian leaders and so on. In nearly every case, the audiences are all aging out- and in the other, the soil doesn't have depth. "

Wierwille will be forgotten. PFAL will be forgotten. GSC's Great Mike Debates? No one will care. Actual Errors? Forgotten. Victor Paul Wierwille's delusions of grandeur became TWI's delusions of significance in the history of Christianity. It's a pissant cult that barely touched 100,000 people in a world of 4 Billion. The world population has increased, but the cult's influence has not kept pace. A few years after the life of Christ, the world was turned upside down. The same time since snow fell on the gas pumps, and The Way remains a footnote not even deserving of its own chapter in the book of forgotten cults.

In the same way that "it takes a village to raise a child," it takes a whole congregation to raise - each other! We are to have the humility to consider others more worthy, and to learn from them; to let them mentor us. In the same way, we also are examples and mentors to others; always bear that in mind. A Prayer Coordinator in a Christian group talked to us about the "smorgasbord of ways to pray" - some like to sit or stand, some like corporate and some private prayer; some sing, doodle, draw, etc. What about the smorgasbord of "acting out" Christ? You know Jesus on this earth had lots of different ways to interact with people, to match "where they were coming from" - so watch, and learn from other people.

Mike, I really thought you were going somewhere with this. Because then, and now, we should all be looking for people who are demonstrating the love ofG od (if you like, "the Christ in them") . I thought perhaps you were being honest in seeking mentors. But then you say: Please, Mike. Understand that Christ is bigger than PFAL. To find a mentor to "act out" Christ, widen your search. Look at lives of others: Here's Phil 2:3 in Amplified: Amplified Bible Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit [through factional motives, or strife], but with [an attitude of] humility [being neither arrogant nor self-righteous], regard others as more important than yourselves. If you are only looking at one group of people, one faction - are you not in direct contradiction to what this verse says? In every translation, we are urged to ESTEEM/ REGARD/ CONSIDER (etc) OTHERS as MORE IMPORTANT than ourselves. You can take that as an individual context, or in a group context. Who should you esteem more important? Who should TWI esteem more important? Seek mentors from other backgrounds. Look at how, say, Mother Teresa "acted out" Christ; Martin Luther King in his calls for social justice; Jon Bon Jovi, or Bono, if you like. Look at churches in other countries; the persecuted Christian church in Syria, China, most Muslim-dominated countries, elsewhere; how do the people there live? What can you learn from their examples? Go to an outgoing church near where you live, and see how they practice what they preach. Talk to people there. You are more than welcome, should you ever come to the UK, to come to my church to see what we do. For a little congregation of maybe a solid 40 members, my church cooks about 50 meals a week and gives out to vulnerable people in the community; also gives them food parcels. This weekend we are having a StACCtion day: our little church hires 3 skips for the local community to dump old junk, so as to keep the neighbourhood looking nice. We show the area that we love them and want the best for the people. They are drawn by the love we show; many now are interested in our offering. In lockdown - our congregation has grown! After the StACCtion day, I am going to volunteer at a mass vaccination centre in this city. I am not scheduled for this, but my fellow church member has to go to help his father who will be recovering from an operation (helping his dad is great Christian practice) so he asked me to sub for him (that's some of my great Christian practice). Are we as individuals and as a congregation "acting out" Christ enough for you? Or would you like more information about the many other things we do? Probably the best mentors are actually those who have risen above the traditional teaching of their churches, throwing off doctrinal shackles, and living more purely according to the great heart of the teachings of the bible and in particular the NT.

#Bullspit, Mike. See you in another three years?

Plagiarism was his way of letting you know he thought you were stupid. Copyrighting his work was his way of letting you know, no, really, he thought you were stupid.

I know some seriously smart people, Mike. Like, seriously. Theologians (and yes, he's a respected international expert), linguists and English teachers, and others whose livelihood depends on words. Bullinger had some serious creds, too, and an intense background in Hebrew and Greek. I don't know if he made up these FoS, but if nobody else has heard of them... I wonder... Of course, if a clever preacher from Ohio (and a non-academician) knows better... I'd have more confidence in that preacher if he understood tenses in English verbs, even the more simple English tenses that I know I learned in primary school and developed an understanding of in secondary school... but that preacher doesn't understand simple verb construction at all so I genuinely doubt his comprehension of more complex FoS.

Plagiarism is the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own. That is both stealing and lying. There are numerous passages throughout the Bible that indicate both stealing and lying are wrong. Obviously copyrights and judicial law concur with the Bible on this matter. Are you going for an Alan-Desrshowitz-for-the-defense-of-unabashed-plagiarism-and-other-con-jobs move? you might want to consider a different strategy to defend your admiration of wierwille… ...And actually you don’t need to defend your admiration for wierwille. You can admire whoever you want for whatever reasons you want to admire the person. But don’t kid yourself into thinking you can sell others on “the greatness of wierwille”. ...Been there done that…I escaped that nonsense years ago. But don’t be dismayed... There is hope! there is a way out of the rabbit hole, Mike! Maybe it’s time to suck it up and deal with self-deception. some food for thought: We deceive ourselves because we don’t have enough psychological strength to admit the truth and deal with the consequences that will follow. ..by Courtney Warren Self-deception is a process of denying or rationalizing away the relevance, significance, or importance of opposing evidence and logical argument. Self-deception involves convincing oneself of a truth (or lack of truth) so that one does not reveal any self-knowledge of the deception….from Wikipedia

Enjoying it daily. Favorite is speaking in tongues during worship time at church. (Music is So loud no one can hear)

Wow Mike I did a double take reading your post! And here’s why: instead of your typical beating around the bush on the plagiarism issue – you talked about it directly, revealing your true feelings – and for that I thank you !!!!! I sincerely mean that – I’m not being sarcastic. You said “I care not one bit about copyrights on these things. I'm sorry to see it bog down people the way it does. It looks very contrived and artificial to me. Let's talk about more important issues, OK.” Now it’s crystal clear to me what your opinion is of copyrights, plagiarism, proper citation, real scholars and what's due them – and I’m sorry you have such a low opinion of all that – but I will respect your opinion and hopefully you will understand I have a much higher opinion on them than you do. As far as us talking about more important issues – we’ll have to come to some agreement on what is more important. As I’ve already indicated there will be some differences of opinion as to what matters have greater significance or value – hopefully we can amicably figure that out...since your last words were “How's Speaking in Tongues doing for you these days?” I figure we can start there...I’m not sure if you said that sarcastically or if you are indicating that is the first of the more important issues you want to talk about...if you intended to convey contempt...well, let’s just leave it at that. If you really do want to talk about speaking in tongues maybe that would warrant a new thread – I’ve already expressed my opinion on speaking in tongues on a few threads already but I always enjoy the opportunity to reiterate my views. In closing, I wanted to clarify my intentions and the thought behind my posts. I was not making fun of you. My target is usually wierwille and all the deceitful tactics he utilized. That is an important issue to me because in my opinion lying and stealing on a grand scale is wrong. Obviously, you have a different opinion on that.

Whoa whoa whoa! Careful now...I think one of those is the spell that makes the copyright symbol invisible to any plagiarist...Not sure...or maybe it’s all of those being said while you play session 1 of PFAL backwards.

Hello Mike. I've kinda missed you round here. Could always rely on you to make a point that would stir up Cafe denizens. Was wondering what had happened to you. You went away to study PFAL more deeply, I think. Well, no desire from me to study PFAL. Oh, I wish you could read it in the original! Maybe try deep-reading the two principal books that VPW plagiarised? I doubt TWI is really "moving back to the original PFAL class." Far too dated.

Be strong, Annio. Enjoy your new church, check out its safeguarding policy, and be bold to speak out if you see something that's dodgy.

Kudos to you Annio for being courageous to share your experiences and views of those predatory pigs...it raises awareness and concern...voices like yours are a secret weapon that those creeps never anticipated...makes me think of a bunker-buster bomb - - speaking out penetrates the hypocrisy and blasts open their depraved subculture...I wish you good health, happiness and recovery.

must be a thread of a tangled web "Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive”

That's why twi is barely hanging on by a thread.