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I agree that working scripture is a good thing to do, hands down. However, TWI placed study on a pedestal that doesn't fit. That we have a bible is cool, never been easier to study and we should do so as we determine. However, consider how powerfully they walked in the book of Acts...guess what? They didnt have Bibles. Most of them used the Apocryphia for what we know as the Old Testament, including Jesus Christ. Scripture was on scrolls, papyrus, etc..and kept in the temple or Synagogues. The public really didn't have access unless you were wealthy enough to afford your own set, or went to the Synagogue or Temple. Wierwille made Christianity into an intellectual pursuit, while the Bible clearly states that knowledge puffeth up. Love trumps it all. Love God with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. Love your neghbor as yourself. Love trumps doctrine any day of the week and God isn't bound by our knowledge, or lack of knowledge of scripture. They walked the way they did in the first century because Christianity is relationship based. God is our Father, Christ is our Lord and head. That simple.

I'm hoping to have a discussion about how God works in our lives. There are so many verses that tell believers what to do such as walk in love and renew your mind. My foundation for living a Christian life began with and for 12 years was based on twi's doctrine and practices. I remember the ministry's phrase that said to "practice the presence of God," but I pretty much took that to mean I was to think about God instead of worldly things which brought me back to something I was to do. I remember hearing, "you do your part and God will do His part. What does that even mean. I know now that it has to do with having a two-way relationship with God and Christ. It wasn't easy, however, for this to happen in twi because you were so busy doing their work of the ministry, (hold fellowships, witness, run classes, go to leaders about everything) that my relationship with them was way more established than my relationship with God or with Jesus, who by the way, was absent. So when I read Phil 2:12,13 which says I am to work out my own salvation for it is God who is working in you both to want to do, and to do, his good pleasure, I wondered what did this all entail and how does He do it. I'm especially thinking about experiencing the fruit of the spirit (Gal 5:22,23) and living with the power of God in our lives.

I was looking at Romans 7 yesterday. It covers what you wrote above as well as the choice between living by the law which held people captive (for us, the law would have been all of twi's rules and expectations) and serving in the newness of the spirit. Reading it again now, I'm still trying to understand the last verse where it says, "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God." I finally clicked over to read chapter 8 (like you also recommended) and WOW - there's a LOT in there related to this verse. It's been a while since I've read this chapter - I'll look at it more closely tomorrow. So cool .

You wrote (the underlining is mine): "At times God has spoken to me through other people as they stated things about my life that I had never told them or anyone else for that matter and then spoke to my heart the way only God would know to inspire in them." This is so loving and inspiring in sharp contrast to the "in-your-face" and condemning reproof that was given in twi or the "personal prophecy" horror show that some ex-way followers began to practice in an off-shoot ministry. You wrote: "For me, most times it's a peaceful "knowing" that this is the way, walk ye in it." A peaceful "knowing" may well be the key when discerning if what you're hearing is really from God. There's nothing wrong with being excited about learning the Bible or having fellowship with others who are excited about God, His Word and Jesus. But as I read Charlene's book, "Undertow" and look back to the time I became involved with twi, it was not "a peaceful knowing." It was more of a "hyped-up knowing" or the "adrenaline-rush kind of knowing" from hearing about the "man of God," the "biblical research and teaching ministry," the "class etc." The teachings were great (based on what little I knew of the Bible), but they could also have been called the "opening act" with the main attraction being "way stuff" that came after (including being shown the "incredible" green card." It is important to listen for and hear that quiet still voice from God.

Well, not to give a pat answer, but how God works in our lives is as unique as we are individually. At times God has spoken to me through other people as they stated things about my life that I had never told them or anyone else for that matter and then spoke to my heart the way only God would know to inspire in them. Ive had visions before that were very vivid. For me, most times it's a peaceful "knowing" that this is the way, walk ye in it. However, here's the best advice I could ever give anyone on the subject. Have faith/trust in God that if he needs to work in you for whatever reason he will know just how to get your attention. Go ahead and toss all the garbage TWI has on the subject, they are clueless for the most part. That crap about speaking in tongues strengthens your inner man like spiritual weight lifting so you are built up enough to receive revelation...all trash. How on earth can God give something that is given the same measure to us all and then we need to build it up before it works...makes no sense. If God needs you to do something he will get your attention and he will do it in a way that's understood by you.

TWI has it wrong once again. Fruit of the Spirit are characteristics of the new nature, just as the works of the flesh are contrasted against fruit of the spirit.

I am no theologian, nor do I wish to engage in theological arguments. But the best way I know to build a personal relationship and understanding with/of God is through His Word. I strongly suggest getting a hold of a version other than KJV, such as the New International Version, Revised Standard Version, or the ESV. Another thing that helps me is One Year Bible Online. This app provides daily readings selected from the Old Testament, New Testament, Pslams, and Proverbs. You might want to start this on 1/1/2023. There's audio with commentary or you can just read the verses for yourself. Try to edit out all the guano and legalism you have previously learned as you listen/read. God bless!

Like, "Mogadishu kuala lumpur jakarta lo shonta..." (That'll show him not to sleep during corps night teaching!) What at comedy!

Could be…thinking more on other things you’ve already said – let me put another idea on the table trust issues and lack of self-confidence often correlate to feelings of manipulation Not trying to play shrink – just trying to find common ground ~ ~ ~ ~ You grew up in TWI…I joined when I was 21 and left when I was 33…you’ve mentioned some folks can leave with no strings attached – I assumed you may have included me in that group since I got in and out of my own accord as an adult. In the short time that I was in TWI, it’s still taking me some 36 years to unpack some of the mental and emotional baggage since I left. A couple of the biggies are trust issues and lack of self-confidence. I think anyone who has been in TWI for any length of time has been impacted by an authoritarian religion. If one grew up in TWI, that’s probably a double whammy of being subjected to authoritarian parenting following an authoritarian religion…I can’t even begin to imagine what that’s like…My way corps training pales in comparison. It was only for 2 years - being cut off from outside information, newspapers, books, movies, and TV [no internet when I was there]. Being cloistered in the way corps training program separates one from nuclear family [if you’re single or couple no kids…Mom & Dad may sponsor you ] and/or extended family. In effect, the Way International’s leadership becomes one’s adoptive parents. Real familial relationships become overshadowed by the adoption into a “spiritual family”. ~ ~ ~ ~ I think culturally the strong bonds of being connected to others by kinship…by marriage…by blood are not what they used to be…for a variety of reasons and due to escalating forces in a fast-paced “connected” world - divorces…broken families…dysfunctionality…estrangements and rifts seem more common - perhaps because the support system that was traditionally found in families may now be found elsewhere such as social media or in organizations that seem to fulfill the need to belong. Maybe this means we've evolved way past the Medieval proverb ‘blood is thicker than water’ ( which meant that familial bonds will always be stronger than bonds of friendship or love). ~ ~ ~ ~ One of wierwille’s most divisive tools was his demanding followers choose the priority of “The Word” over earthly family. On many occasions I’ve heard him passionately preach on Matthew 12: 46-50 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” I like so many others bought into his polarizing idea – when it comes to “The Word” family and friends are not as important…wierwille often referred to us as “his kids”. You might find the following links interesting – articles written by mental health professionals: Why Authoritarians Love Religion | Psychology Today Authoritarian Parenting: Examples, Definition, Effects (verywellmind.com) ~ ~ ~ ~ Trust is a powerful thing…and yet also a very fragile thing. Trust is a subjective way of measuring how much I’m able to rely on and believe in the honesty and integrity of others. I bought into wierwille’s con job in ’74, taking PFAL. I “learned” NOT to trust any other Christian labeled group, NOT to trust commentaries, NOT to believe Bible scholars, and NOT to rely on any other interpretation of the Bible except what wierwille said about a passage or topic. These a priori assumptions I adopted from PFAL were a powerful tool of control. It is hidden though – camouflaged – or relabeled as trusting God…relying on what “The Word” says…believing “The Word” . The longer I stayed in TWI and especially going through way corps training, my self-confidence was whittled away some more. I learned to NOT make any big decisions until I first checked with my leadership. Trust is a very fragile thing indeed. Like a house of cards my belief system fell apart in the wake of passing of the patriarch paper…It wasn’t so much what was in the POP paper but observing the meltdown of leadership in the aftermath. My observations got me to dust off a bunch of old red flags and over time my trust in wierwille, my faith in everything he said about the Bible melted away…I felt helpless…I had all my eggs in one basket – and didn’t know what I should do . Who should I talk to? Who should I consult for what I should be doing next? ~ ~ ~ ~ I get the idea of the tattoo “Trust no one” - a reminder that you shouldn’t rely on others. A good idea – but unless you live on a deserted island all by yourself you will have to have some self-confidence in your ability to make good judgements “Is this the best option / price / service / product / fit for me?” That’s going to take some thinking, comparing, self-awareness of preferences, goals, etc. Should I trust that person / service / company / product? Is that person a true friend of mine? Trust is earned. What evidence is there to show they or it is trustworthy? ~ ~ ~ ~ I recently read a news article – it was posted on Grease Spot too – about a person running for political office. The person was an election denier who claimed the 2020 election was rigged – stolen, and there was massive voter fraud. Anyone who wants to argue about that – take it to reddit – why I’m mentioning it here is because this person running for office was in TWI for a while – don’t know if he still is. Why I’m bringing it up here is because the cult of personality mindset is adaptable and can take many forms. In my opinion, conspiracy theory websites can also sabotage peoples’ cognitive skills. If current or ex-TWI folks don’t unravel the manipulative cult-tactics, they could fall for other con jobs. Steven Hassan the author of Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves and Combating Cult Mind Control: The #1 Best-selling Guide to Protection, Rescue, and Recovery from Destructive Cults has written another fascinating book about a cult of personality – but since politics is a no-no on Grease Spot Café I’ll leave it up to you to click on this hyperlink, that has been encrypted to protect the indolent > The Cult of Orange-Hole: A Leading Cult Expert Explains How the Orange-Hole Uses Mind Control ~ ~ ~ ~ No offense – but I feel like you’re condescending. Like I’m a child and not aware of the adult world of manipulative tactics, propaganda or that I can’t trust my own cognitive skills. Seems like you’re trying to take the place of the absent cult-leader. If you’re not – fine. Please quit trying to belittle the internet, Waydale, Grease Spot Café and my cognitive skills. I’m an adult…I assume you’re an adult. Please speak to me as one adult to another – in normal language – don’t be cryptic and insinuating. This has been silly with your enigmatic prose and allusions – you come off like a TWI-know-it-all who has the inside scoop on what’s really going on talking to a new grad of PFAL. You can also stuff all the fearmongering over scams, the internet, deep state talk, conspiracies, surveillance, etc. I was a security technician for some 40 years…started out working for several security companies that provided electronic and armed personnel services in commercial, industrial, and residential settings. Along the way I have also managed to provide technical support for military defense contractors, military armories, corporations, police agencies, high end security consultants. I’ve been vetted by Feds, polygraphed several times, drug-tested, had psyche tests, and one job interview that lasted 7 hours (they did buy me lunch ). I’ve been trained in physical security by former Secret Service, trained in surveillance, social engineering tactics and countersurveillance by former Feds – an ever-evolving discipline to keep up with the bad guys – but I don’t keep up with it anymore since I’m retired. I have conducted security sweeps for CEOs, business facilities, and politicians. I’ve been trained in certain aspects of network protection by credentialed security experts. And up until 2019 I have owned and operated my own security consulting / technical support company. Now my favorite hi-tech security measure is using the “Silence Unknown Callers” feature on my phone. I love it! Robots and scammers don’t even bother to leave a voice mail anymore. Thanks for listening to this braggart – I don’t usually boast this much – but it gets tiresome listening to someone hem and haw over all this stuff…you’re preaching to the choir! I realize and respect what you have said – I know you’re smart and you sound like you know what you’re talking about. Don’t you worry about me, okay? I’m a freakin’ feral animal - I escaped from cultic domestication and now living free…untamed…I get my news from a variety of websites / periodicals/ books / fact-check sources and broadcast channels. I vote over issues and pay attention to track records if any – I never vote straight party. I don’t believe everything I read on the internet. I trust family, friends, neighbors, old bosses & co-workers, and certain Grease Spotters who have earned my trust – and bear in mind because vigilance, safety and security are in my blood there’s always a vetting process running in the back of my mind no matter who I interact with. ~ ~ ~ ~ Studying machinations, political science and debunking conspiracies and rabbit holes is a hobby of mine. As an aside from my own years of observation and study I believe there is evidence of conspiracy in the JFK assassination but not necessarily in all the complex intrigue that has been disseminated over the years – just mentioning this as evidence I love to exercise critical thinking and that shooting holes in untenable conspiracy theories is not that difficult a task. You’re free to think what you want about the internet, Waydale, TWI, Grease Spot Café. You don’t have to trust me or believe anything I say. I really don’t care what you think of me. Please stop insulting me with your demeaning rhetoric. I say this in love - stop the intrigue stuff or I swear to all that’s wholly cerebral and virtual – I will respond with more verbosity the likes of which will put a thesaurus to shame / disgrace / embarrassment / humiliation – and I will enjoy doing it. If you fall asleep reading it – that’s your problem. zzzzZZZZ ZZZzzzz...see I brought this on myself love and peace T-Bone

Reason 117. Don Quixote It causes you to construct windmill battles in your mind like Don here above.

Big Brother is watching you

But TWI makes it everybody's business with their evangelizing and proselytizing and gaslighting and abusing and stealing and destroying. I wish they could keep their business to themselves, but they can't and won't. The pressures to sell "the class" is one way they make it EVERYBODY'S business. I married a woman who was born into a TWI/CORPS family. I never condemned, nor questioned, her beleeefs. They just never really came up, or else I just lovingly tolerated the silliness. But the pressure to bend my knee to victor became seemingly insurmountable at some point. In an effort to keep the peace and do whatever it took to save a marriage I was gaslighted to believe I ruined, I took "the class" and attended fellowship with an open mind and heart. Before I took "the class," my life was replete with what many here would call signs, miracles, wonders and revelation. I'm embarrassed to even mention this, because I never considered any of this miraculous or special or worthy of boasting, which I'm painfully trying to avoid right now. Since a very young age, I experienced countless healings - physical, mental, spiritual - and had never been to a doctor or had a vaccine. My life was full of love and joy and contentment and professional success and gratitude. All my needs were met. I walked in the light of the Love of God. But the proselytizers of TWI couldn't keep their shonta in their own toilet. They had to share it with me by force. They had push my face into their shonta. TWI made their business my business. And their business is destruction. So, fvck them for destroying my life! They should have kept their business to themselves. Thank God for GSC, open forums, and free speech.

Are they still required to laugh at jokes that were already stale 50 years ago?