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After setting markers in pfal regarding the scope of fundamental principles and holy spirit field.... wierwille and twi-leadership spent more time preaching/talking about the devil than the things of God. At first (1976-1978), I thought that wierwille was simply preparing us to understand the multi-faceted workings of our adversary. Yes, we went through the dozens of names that he is called in the Scriptures.... ie. Lucifer, Satan, serpent, Antichrist, God of this world, Prince of the power of the air, Father of Lies, Beelzebub, Belial, Great fiery red dragon, dragon, destroyer, enemy, thief, evil spirit, adversary, tempter, wicked one, son of wickedness, etc. So, with all these different names, surely God wants us to pay attention to this. But then.... I began to sense that all the emphasis on the devil had a divergent tactic.... it kept wierwille from highlighting God in his life. Even the few examples that wierwille cited in pfal were suspect. Why was no one around to witness these moments? Wierwille makes reference the closing down the fortune teller's stand at the local fair (if I recall that correctly). And, first of all.... did it really happen? Or, the revelation "white heart / black heart" story and how God was teaching wierwille revelation? I just find these sporadic examples suspect.... since I never saw wierwille operate any revelation/power manifestations in the 70's or 80's. What's up with that? With the rarity of any power manifested, did wierwille spend more time on how the devil operates to keep us from spotting his fraudster ways? After all, he couldn't spotlight his OWN LIFE as a testimony for this power of God, now could he? Thus, he and martindale go into great lengths to show how the devil operates. Same with Athletes of the Spirit....... what is more glamorized is the Devil. All the unique costume designs, the music rips and squeals, the fire bursts, the sensual gyrations, and allure. The "believers" seem bland, obedient and unappealingly faithful. No contest: the devil is glorified throughout. Just like in pfal when wierwille doesn't want someone to criticize the tie he is wearing, or his clothing.... or soon, we "get down to the bare facts!" Wierwille surely didn't want to come across as the emperor who wore no clothes. He wanted you to see what he let you see: a prominent preacher, a man of God.... not a phony counterfeit. His stories in pfal belie a deeper truth. The things wierwille was trying so hard to hide. Does anyone remember wierwille's story about the time when Howard Allen was deathly sick? The story I remember hearing was wierwille and Howard were on the motor coach coming back from an itinerary. Howard fell deathly sick. And, wierwille had trouble attending to the driving AND helping Howard to get him to a hospital or home. Anyways, not far down the road was a hitch-hiker standing alongside the road and wierwille pulled over to pick him up. This guy was instrumental in helping Howard while wierwille kept driving. Apparently, as they got near home and Howard was no longer in serious condition, the hitch-hiker asked to be let off at a certain spot. Wierwille claimed that this "guy" was an angel sent by God to minister to Howard. A phenomenon. I always pondered why wierwille didn't minister healing to Howard... if, as he taught, that gifts of healing was one of the nine manifestations. Wierwille sure gave the devil his due throughout his ministry..... and then some.

@T-Bone View from the other side of the fence: that pastor went home and said to his wife: "I met a very disturbed young man today, possibly possessed of many devil spirits. Please pray with me for him. Something is not right." And as you see, his prayers, though not effective immediately, have come to pass and been answered.

Many have shared thru the years how deathly paranoid wierwille was. He was in constant fear of losing his power and control over others. Was he also afraid that his secret sins would be found out and on display for others to see? I think so. The cult atmosphere is laced with watchful paranoia: 1) Watch out for devil spirit activity, 2) Watch out that your staffers are not speaking negatives and souring on the cult's headquarter experience, 3) Watch out for internet activity, specifically on the GreaseSpot website, and 4) Watch out that your believing doesn't falter and you're out of fellowship. In other words, the system is built on fear. As the numbers shrink.... the paranoia grows. More eyes are on the little remnant that's left. The tighter they grip, the more people want to escape the bondage.

If you're working out some sort of concept, and people keep posting verses that fly in the face of your concept, then you have 2 real choices. A) Ignore the opposing verses and call people names for bringing them up and just post your pet idea B) Look over the opposing verses. Either explain how they actually agree- SENSIBLY- with your idea and incorporate them into a more polished idea, or accept that your idea is error-ridden and drop it. Most people here have an opinion on which you will choose.

I’m not attempting to defuse your arguments by saying you got them from wierwille - I said it sounds like! I will acknowledge your stupid thesis of bull-$hit is yours and yours alone. Daniel 9 is a narrative like any othe in the Bible that alludes to the sovereignty of God - He is all powerful over angels and demons all must answer to Him.

As far as I know, they were not. They were ordinary hamburgers, cooked on commercial BBQ grills, like you would see a typical outdoor festival, and transferred to platters on a picnic table as they finished cooking . But, picture this: It's a hot August day in Ohio and you're leaving food uncovered on a picnic table, mere steps away from the porta-pots. You weren't supposed to point out the obvious problem to anyone because it would be seen as a negative confession. And, anyway, you could just beleeeeve they wouldn't make you sick. What a fellow's hip, what a joint divine.

Makes wierwille sound increibly inept on all counts. Why didnt the MOGFODAT heal his buddy? Drinking buddy at that. Howard is one of the biggest creeps out there. Ive heard from countless people where Howard had made crude remarks to married women, sexually harassing them. He was into adultery the same as wierwille and it was common knowledge back in 2008 when I was still at HQ. But wierwille loved talking about how special his believing was, and how much he labored for us all and how his believing basically held the world together from descending into chaos. Bullshonta at its finest.

On another thread Skyrider said this: and what I said there I thought would be good to add to this thread: Skyrider said: “He was in constant fear of losing his power and control over others. Was he also afraid that his secret sins would be found out and on display for others to see?” This right here!!!!!!! Fear of losing control and fear of exposure! Toto pulling back the curtain in The Wizard of Oz. ~ ~ ~ ~ In its memory banks R2D2 had the Death Star plans that revealed its weakness Grease Spot Café is like Toto and R2D2, don’t you think?

Skyrider said: “He was in constant fear of losing his power and control over others. Was he also afraid that his secret sins would be found out and on display for others to see?” This right here!!!!!!! Fear of losing control and fear of exposure! Toto pulling back the curtain in The Wizard of Oz. ~ ~ ~ ~ In its memory banks R2D2 had the Death Star plans that revealed its weakness ~ ~ ~ ~ Grease Spot Café is like Toto and R2D2, don’t you think?

Yes they were. Watching the entire time, tying us in knots with fear of a negative confession. I am so thankful I am free of that garbage..knowing that out thoughts dont somehow influence reality of their own power is deliverance.

Yeah.... so even by 1976, if the prices were doubled it wasn't that bad. Then, when twi-followers went WOW or lived in Way Homes.... the rent was split 4 ways (as an example). So, even if monthly rent doubled to $260, split 4 ways = $65 a piece. A guy could spend a lot more time witnessing when a group of youngsters ponied up their share of expenses. We could easily take those hourly-wage jobs at coffee shops, fast-food restaurants, retail stores, etc. because we were sharing the cost of expenses. By golly, you could easily work a 4-6 hour day since you came home to an apartment with no television, no cable fees, no internet services, no cell phone bill, no car payment (most WOWs didn't own a car). Walking was cheap transportation. And, witnessing was cheap "entertainment." Those were the days, my friend.... we thought they'd never end.....

From an outsider's PoV, I find American Evangelism frankly embarrassing. Or worse. Evangelical? They are NOT promoting any Christian message, not one that Christ, or God, would recognise. Evangelising for the Devil, maybe. Their actions belie their words. They may be "sincere," but their basis is a "challenging counterfeit," if anything. Many are deceived. I wonder if they read their bibles for themselves, or only read selected passages, and those through SBU tinted glasses. Haven't had time to listen to the second video yet. One for the To Do list.

If an analogy must be inexhaustibly explained, decoded or clarified, then it's an ineffectual analogy. It's not REALLY an analogy at all. An analogy is a comparison of two things for the purpose of clarification. The analogy itself is the clarifier. Same goes for metaphors. If one must perform acrobatic logical leaps and imaginative jumps to hyper space to explain a metaphor, it's a poorly constructed and ineffectual metaphor.

No surprise - Mike chose A. A) Ignore the opposing verses and call people names for bringing them up and just post your pet idea

Double doors? No, your just picking verses that show that there is a spiritual war raging between God and satan. Not only that but you are reading a concept into scripture where said concept does not exist: double doors.

Maybe that should also apply to all "non-profit" foundations that are set up by celebrities, retired sports figures and the like where the administrative costs and payroll fees to family members are nearly 85-90% of the foundation.

Churches should be taxed, just like any other profit driven business. When snake oil ceases to be a profitable commodity, the number of people selling it will "miraculously" shrink.

No most Christians don’t agree with the statement the Bible is “God breathed”. They don’t know the term. You skipped over that part of my post and only addressed the part about you whether or not you have a fundamentalist bias. I don’t believe PFAL was God inspired. Based upon the fruit in the man’s life and in the followers I view it as exactly the opposite - a cultic Stanford prison experiment.

I have similar feelings but a less technical description. I view faith as a source of inspiration but have departed from fundamentalist views. This whole topic is starting to sound like a Dan Brown novel - the Da Vinci Code or Angels and Demons. Faith vs Science