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Thinking about this stuff for a few days now...Sowers?.... Let me see if I got this straight...The grandson of the grand pubah (who just happens to have the same name) starts a "thing" that closely resembles the waycorps training, even borrowing their main objectives...word for word. From all accounts, their doctrine is aligned closely to what Vic taught... ...and now this guy shows up proclaiming himself a sowers grad...and wanting to be pals with everyone. As far as I'm concerned, he can kiss my foot. plain and simple...if you follow the doctrines of victor small wierwille, you are a loser...been there done that. What these people believe is flat out wrong and destructive to people. As far as it goes, they can spread their poison elsewhere. I have no toleration for these sons of britches...none at all.

Hi Caleb! I want to welcome you. I am Lizzy and I mostly read here. It is an interesting place. I learn a lot here by reading. I laugh too. There are intelligent people here with great sense of humor. You don't seem to me to be the type that would quit posting here just because someone disagreed with you or misunderstood you. I don't think "oversensitive" would describe you. I like that you encourage debate. Maybe it is those that disagree with you that you want to hear the most? Nothing wrong with that. How can we learn if we always agree? You said you wanted discussion and you got it! I look forward to reading what you have to say.

Wow I'm heavily struck, here, with how unpredictable can be the human condition and the oft strong desire to be right, to be sure to get the last word in, to be sure to one-up another. Not exactly the vision Pawtucket had, I'm sure, when he said something like "lets tell the other side of the story and maybe have some fun doing it". If someone pi$ses me off and I just can't stand it, I fail to see the good in not standing it so publically; I guess I'll never understand that and I'm glad I don't get it. Caleb, in his youthful "I was just kidding" approach and tone after his original approach of "I'll show up on your stoop"..........I think that those of us that have children that are older than 22 might understand that silliness quicker and yes, he did deserve to have explained to him the better way to frame things here. But my question, then, is whether or not like bahavior isn't happening amongst those that were comfy to tell him straighten up and fly right. The bully on the playground that barges into the new playground, making comments that he later states were "just kidding" then gets to sit back and watch as those he is presumed to have bullied go at each other. I think we too often have no idea of another's intentions, and of course we lack eye contact and body language and general knowledge of someone that is merely known to us on a computer screen. Then I've known of two or more people getting together on the phone or an IM and prod each other against another. "you post this and I'll follow with this" and so it goes. For what? To show someone how tough we are, how much more we know than them, we're big, they're small and by God we are going to make sure they remember it? Sad and our new friend Caleb, bless his heart and pass the peas, sees only the bickering and spitting and why the hell wouldn't he feel comfortable to come back with more of his own goodies. I don't know the man called Caleb but I do understand young people that age and I do understand having connections to people of note and just those two combined make for a powerful mix of "pffffttttt" Is that his intent? I'm not sure I care, but as is the original idea of the forum, too, he has the right to express it and yes, the responsibility to accept the consequences of a strong group of people. I looked at his posts through the lens of a mama and more fun, the mama of a 20 something kid that is forever making statements that she might have to swallow whole in a short time, sometimes all the time. She'll get it and so will Caleb, I pray. I know I did when as I matured and understood and got off my '10 foot tall and bulletproof' ladder. But to go at each other in such a public manner...........nah. Sad. Caleb, say what you need to say, just do heed alot of the posters sage wisdom of caution, whatever that is for you.

Oh mstar. . . that was good for a real laugh out loud. . . . my thoughts run in the same direction. . . this kid better have the cure for cancer. . . Although, the bar in that family is set fairly low. . . what exactly IS the standard for a great MOG in the good old timey Wierwille family religion? Well, let's see? A guy who left the "confines" of orthodoxy and the church under a dark cloud. . . set out on a grand adventure to hang with the hippies and desired to attend an orgy. . . . Drank like a fish, had the mouth of a sailor, smoked like a chimmney, molested young women while parked in front of the house he shared with his WIFE. . . watched porn and was kind enough to share it. . . beastiality no less. . . admitted to feeling up his own kid. . . taught men that it was cool to commit adultery. . . set himself up as Jesus Christ on a stick. . . and fleeced the flock for millions. . . Hey, the kid doesn't have far to climb. . . . Oh, I forgot. . . this was the guy God Almighty gave the true "word" to. . . like it hasn't been known since the first century. . . he taught great truths on salvation . . . or was it sin? I still get those two confused. Oh well. . . . I SIT once. . . I am golden!

Huh?!?! Go visit politics and tacks, sports and others. Regular long time posters dish it out and get it dished back. Someone "new" shows up with a fairly confrontational first post and you don't think there will be some dishes served back? This is GSC after all. Granted he apologized but you know if you visit my house - stand at my door - pseudo-threaten me (note pseudo) then do not expect to be welcomed to the dinner table just because you toss out an apology.

Hey Rascal, Last night I could only be on line for a couple of minutes so I had no time to respond. I LAUGHED AND LAUGHED ABOUT THE VERY FACT THAT YOU WERE STEPPING IN TO HELP ME DEAL WITH SOWERS 09. I certainly know that you know how to swing the shovel around when you feel it necessary, as a matter of fact, when I first got here one of the things that I liked the very most here at the Greasespot was how you fought it out with certain bullies. And yesterday I really feel that it might have been nice to have a friend near. Yes I was a little upset, so I'll take you words as such, a calming influence. HERE GOES THE LAUGHTER AGAIN. I mean that sincerely Rascal, with all due respect! ROFL I remember once when we were confronting somebodie's ministerial bullying and I suggested to you that we save our point for another time and another thread. And then I could only watch as you just jumped right in and kept swinging away with your little old shovel....sigh....ROFL. So while I think you are right that it is time for me to chill out now I still find great enjoyment in this particular exchange. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA But oh yeah, on a little more serious note. If my own son grew up and actually learned that it was o.k. to bully people like S.O.W.E.R.S.09 did in that first post I'd let him have it too, and I wouldn't have held back as much as I did with Sower either. This young lad needs some immediate edumacation IMO and in a case like this I feel it is perfectly acceptable for us older gents to make it perfectly clear to these kids what they are doing. Especially when a young guy is bullying vulnerable folks. I think it is perfectly legitimate for these dumbazz kids to be told their error in a manner they have already shown a willingness to utilize. And when the issue is bullying, well, whether straight up or only implied I am usually willing to think that their cure won't come from any book lernin, if you get my drift. But as to the overall topic of the thread, I feel that many of you actually know the people involved and have been keeping up with these things for some time. So I'll gladly leave you to it. Heck, I'm interested in where this thread goes too. BUT I MEANT EACH AND EVERY WORD TOO! (added in editing) Dear rascal, I hope that you know that even though I know you don't need my help with anything else going on here on this thread, I'M A WILLIN if'n you want.

Rascal - let's look at this for a moment... A lot of questions have been posed - which S-'09 asked for. Some folks swatted him for asking for respect while he gave none out, Granted, Sower explained that and apologized. But ya' gotta admit that's one heck of a way to enter a crowd - and not a good way. I'll give him lack of wisdom because of his youth. But he did apologize - something I'm still deciding came from him or his leaders. And... now that I think of it... his first post said he'd answer questions... then eventually he posted that he was working 60-70 hours a week. What? He didn't know that he'd be busy when he first made the invitation? I'm thinking that something doesn't smell quite right with this thread... As to how folks are responding... You've posted that you take karate. Think about this for a second, if you will. If you were in a sparring match with a young buck, would you soft touch him or her? The way I see it, S-'09 was asking to spar in his first post. I'd like to see him answer some or all of the questions on this thread. More importantly, I'd like to see the thinking process behind the answers. I just happen to think that the point of this thread was never intended to inform us. I have no delusions that S-'09 will be "rescued" from his cult. He didn't come here to find out more - that's our gig. I'm not of a mind to project my intentions onto this young man. He didn't come here as some lost soul looking for answers. He came here with the intent of telling us how it is - and even that hasn't panned out too well. Now - for a page or two or even three - we're waiting. I'm thinking that if he doesn't answer soon, that the point was to see what fur could fly around here among us. I'm going to sit back and wait. I'm still skeptical as whether or not answers are really forthcoming.

Post anyway you please. I don't recall saying you're embarrassing yourself. I don't want you to alter anything on my account. I do, however recall a proverb about people who speak their whole mind. When did you start believing that someone wanted to invalidate your opinions? Just how is that done, anyhow? Opinions fly back and forth rather quickly here. The comments you're referring to happened this morning - time and comments have come and gone since then. You felt like they needed to be brought up again. That's your right. It's also my right to answer you if you address me. When would you like this to end?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_qFHKZRFqg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxCA8hMa7WU&feature=related Here are two scenes from the movie "Secondhand Lions." It's a great movie. It's worth watching the whole movie, but basically in these two scenes the same guy that gives the punk kids an attitude adjustment then invites them to his home, feeds them and gives them some instruction in manners and life in general. Enjoy. I figure if a bunch of older adults were sitting around talking and some kid came into the room strutting his stuff - he'd get an instruction in manners and it might be forceful. Then someone would take him aside and buy him a beer.

Well now I am really confused. . . someone comes here and has an over the top initial post. . . is called on it and what?? We say it is okay because he is young? People called him on it. . . . and all "kidding" aside. . . that seems the proper response. This is a discussion forum. . . no? Things are discussed? Differing opinions and viewpoints? What is it exactly we discuss? A cult that has hurt many people. . . whose cult? VP's cult and now his family seems intent on carrying on the legacy. Offshoot is a really nice word, but an offshoot of what. . . a nice little bible study? Not in my world. That family is poison. I am sorry they had VP for a dad and grandfather, but they can walk away from this garbage just like the rest of us. No one is forcing them to try and bring back the glory days. Do you know what finally penetrated my pea size brain? The truth of what it was really all about. The other side of the story. If he doesn't know like we didn't at that age. . . be a stand up person and tell him. Or we can tell him it is great he is on this path with this group and more power to him. Yeah. . . hang with the Wierwilles. . . where else can you get the "word".

Typical of you Rascal - always insulting something you know nothing of. I can't believe how insulting you get all the time. I can't believe anyone actually lets you speak in front of them. Frankly your vitriol and venom astounds me - although I confess I also find your bitterness somewhat entertaining at times. Ignorance? My daughter has studied TaeKwonDo for 17 years under a Korean Master and currently participates on the UCSD competitive team. In San Diego martial arts of all kinds are a big deal since there are so many Asian immigrants with varying disciplines. At the San Diego All County competition which is between students followed by a single day of just the masters, the Karate "followers" are held in the lowest esteem...for the very reasons I posted. So my facts which I have seen for years now are what you claim to be ignorance. You know nothing about my actual life in San Diego - yet you are the one who presumes to be able to accurately judge ignorance from experience and then pronounce your findings... No Rascal - you are the ignorant one to always use harsh language when you don't have all of the facts - you are ignorant to presume that only your experiences count. Why don't you come on out and take part in the San Diego All County competition and see for yourself whether my post was accurate or not? I'll anxiously await your hitting the "minus" button on this post since you clearly have a personal vendetta against anything Groucho or I post. Now unless you post more of your bitter bile against me I'll leave this thread to you and your greater knowledge of the universe. Yo!!! Caleb - come on back - I'd like to have a chat with you - casual however as I am no longer religious - just curious about SOWERS though.

Rascal - I'm surprised that after all this time you still lead with your chin. Why not lighten up and see humor when it's right in front of you. Notice this post: Sometimes fun and banter can lighten a conversation, especially a conversation that is essentially a bunch of folks sitting around and waiting on someone to come answer questions he invited. Linda - I repeat - the kid knew what he was walking into. Feel like? Good lord! This is the internet, not the Spanish Inquisition. There are no torture chambers here (though I think GT should consider installing some ;) ) If someone doesn't like what is written they can get up from the computer and live life. If you'll look closely at the thread - only about 2 1/2 pages have been devoted to questions. The rest of the posts have been us discussing how we discuss, questions, and how we don't always get along. The kid knew the job was dangerous when he took it.

Linda, You are another poster I really enjoy reading. Sometimes you say things I wish I had said. . . but did you read doojable's post? You are assuming this kid is offended. . . when his words actually indicate he knows what kind of posts are on this site. He welcomed the questions. . . knew there would be many. . . and said up front it would take time to answer them. Why don't we give him awhile to be a man of his words? I have a son a bit younger than Caleb. My son is working on a Wetlands Preserve called "The Farm" this summer (for MONEY). He is getting ready to go to an accredited bible college this fall in Virginia. He is a busy kid. . . oodles of friends and commitments. . . I barely see his handsome face. . . Let's give Caleb a few weeks before we ride in and defend him. . . He is a big boy. . . and if anything like my kid. . . very busy! :)

I don't foresee there ever being a healthy dialogue with any leader or member of any offshoot on this board. I can only imagine what it must feel like. Probably a lot like slathering oneself with honey and standing on a hill of red ants. I've never been to a CFF meeting and have no interest in going to one. I have no stake whatsover in SOWERS and no current relationship with any of its board or staff. In other words, I have no interest in defending anything except everyone's right to express themselves here without being treated with disdain and having every word picked apart right out of the gate.

I have been known to on occasion, but I am not so sure it counts anymore. . . . you see, I actually believe Jesus Christ IS God! :) Rascal, please don't be sorry. . . I really enjoy what you say and am glad you have such a compassionate voice. It is always a pleasure. . . even when we disagree. :) I like that you mean what you say!!

You know... when I was 22 I was enthusiastic. I went in the worst parts of town and witnessed. BUT I never threatened anyone. I never defended vp as if he were some diamond-studded-gawd-on-a-stick. It never even crossed my mind to consider insults about twi, der victoid, gawd, geezus, or pfal as FIGHTING WORDS. And if I recall correctly, we were taught to behave ourselves with dignity 'so the ministry be not blamed.' We were supposed to have some class. All that is beside the point that I was taught better by my parents. So what does this say about the 'present truth' being sown in Mississippi? Nothing good I'd say.

Go baby go!!!

Didn't read the thread...but still has an opinion...

Who is shouting anyone down? Caleb said he would answer the questions over the next days, weeks, months. . . . he seemed very well versed in the tenor of some postings. . . I am sure it comes as no surprise to him that he might be met with some tough questions. . . and. . . . they were actually invited. I have taken more crap on here for saying I prayed for someone and making a private joke! Pages of it. Geez

Rascal, thanks for trying to give a new poster a chance. You too, Tzaia. Okay, so Caleb made a misstep when he alluded to being ready to fight. He's 22. He's probably been reading all the criticisms of the group he's in, some of which have been nothing more than pure speculation, and maybe he came in with a bit of a chip on his shoulder. In that one regard he got off on the wrong foot. So? I was 22 once, too. Were any of you, those who are so miffed that he hasn't responded to your demands to answer the grilling he's gotten, ever 22 years old and enthusiastic about something? Apparently not. At least he apologized for the harsh words in his first post. But that wasn't enough for some people around here. Apparently they expect him to walk in here, denounce the group he apparently enjoys being in, and not only that, but to answer for every freaking wrong thing that was ever done under the twi banner. That's asking rather a lot, don't you think? Caleb, I'll say it again. Welcome. And thank you for apologizing. If you decide not to come back, please don't go away thinking everyone here wanted to shout you down, because that's not the case. I wish you the best, whether you stay or go.

It makes me sad that other stlll live and raise their kids in the mog worship, arrogant, isolationist beliefs of VPW/TWI, where bully characteristics are mistaken for boldness, and obedience to the mog is mistaken for spiritual depth.

I, for one, would be interested in hearing about the mechanics of the program. What was an average day like? How was it scheduled? Did you have free time to just relax? What were mealtimes like? What sort of food program did you have? What were the housing arrangements? Did you have group work projects? What was offered in the way of academic study? Are these questions general enough to keep things neutral?

I find Firefox much more stable than any IE. Take a chance. It's by the people that brought you Netscape many moons ago.

Manipulation---The wayfer mindset needs it to survive. She may have distanced herself from them physically, but, mentally, she is still a "Way believer".

hi sowers grad !!!! have not read the thread. i'm sure it's tedious like this whole site but i did want to say hi back to you and welcome

George,Have a great day!Keep on keepin on,Yours is a unique perpective.

Curmudgeons can have happy birthdays? Who would thunk it? Happy birthday.

In all these years on GS I dont think that I have posted once on a birthday thread but I'll use this occasion to say that I have always enjoyed your posts....( and I dont throw that around lightly) Thanks Happy Birthday Joji Aa

Now what is it about this girl that makes you want to stay with her?

Time will tell if he's a poser. Few are as tough as they claim. In fact my experience is those who say they are tough are rarely tough. They just know how to call people names. I'm just puzzled that there is a desire (need) to dish anything back.

The guy did say he was working lots of hours,give him a little time to respond.

Wayfers are preety good at putting words in peoples mouths and getting tghe individual to do as the mindset wants. What you saw or are seeing with your exgirlfriend is nothing new with the twiers.

:o Lingo?? -------------------- I dunno--- why would anyone bother? are people really that bored? But I suppose you could be right--- I can believe almost anyone anywhere but when anyone speaks in the name of "truth" the details always seem to be at least a little bit sketchy and suspect. I hope he tells us why young Victor is such a "great man of God" --enough of us have asked already-- Im expecting something Gandhi like, a dash of St. Patrick with a little Mother Theresa mixed in. After the big buildup anything less than ending world hunger and brokering a lasting peace in the Mideast and I'll be sorely disapointed. I can hardly wait for 'the truth' to be shown....

And what makes you folks think this guy is who he says he is? I think its somebody pulling yalls chain.... Maybe an old poster who has 'become new'?

Rascal, I know we can all evolve and hopefully change for the better, heck, it's part of life, so that's o.k. You sound sore at me, and when I saw the "-2" on your initial response to me I did my best and now it reads "-1". So that's how I thought about your post. I was serious about jumping in with you too! I may be wrong but I can make an edumacated guess on where the "-2" came from.

Alright Jeff, sorry that I said anything at all. Well said Tzaia.

Let's see - the thread is now nearly 100 posts long... and only ten or so have been from from the thread starter. Most of the posts (initially) were asking questions and telling the young lad to be polite, along with some welcomes. The last page or two has been all of us discussing "stuff." Now we've stopped talking to him, and about him, and we're talking to each other about ourselves. I still think there was a level of dishonesty in how the thread was started. Time will tell. I'll read it again - but I just don't view this thread as being threatening to someone. If he's as tough as he claims, then he'll take it as well as he dished it out.

Maybe he was. I'm still not sure that sparring with anyone does anything other than teach someone how to defend and attack. The problem with taking this tactic is that the physical response drains the blood from the head, which causes people to start reacting and stop thinking. I don't believe he is a threat in the real sense of the word, so the response is unwarranted (IMO) and unproductive (again, IMO). He made a typical "opinionated newbie" entrance into this forum. Even though it's a universal experience in every forum I've frequented since 1992, and most of us regulars here should be aware that it happens, there's always a few who pounce on the person (with a highly developed sense of justification for doing so). Is it necessary? If he leaves and never comes back, we (collectively) can rationalize those reasons all we want (and are free to do so), but there will be the element that we (collectively) wouldn't meet him where he is. In my world, that's not something to be proud of.

Dooj, as a karate student, We are trained to exert just enough force to protect ones self, whether it be a young buck in class, a competition, or indeed in a real life self defense situation. No more. In a competition unnecessary force is penalized by point loss, in real life, legally prosecutable. As I improve, my ability to disarm an opponent and render them unable to cause harm without doing damage is a mark of the level of my competence. So yeah, I would attempt to treat the youngster with a soft touch knowing that education, experience and maturity has made it important for me to show restraint instead of *taking him out* even when he acts as if he deserves it.

I hardly say never.. but I think it applies here.. we will NEVER see anyone in "authority" in that organization publically answer questions, in an uncontrolled setting.. I think they have cut every last thread holding themselves to any kind of accountability, to anyone. Same as the parent organization. There is no debate. Period. It's looks like a paramilitary organization..and that's the impression they are ALLOWING me to have. they appear to use the same tactics.. send out "inductees" to do their dirty work. And sit back as lazy, overweight, "lords".. figuring how to move the pawns around.. I think that is a calm, reasonable, logical perception.. no, I don't think we will EVER see anyone give any real answers..

Wow - you are one bitter one eh? Jokes? Humor? All escape you unless you are the center of... oh never mind... I confess you are so much fun. I would never want to constrain you - so much fun just reading your posts - makes my early morning hours more interesting than the news - you still afraid of anthrax? Geezuz go to USAAMRID and get some facts. BTW my daughter wears a class 5 containment suit and has less paranoia than you by a long shot. Go fly to Nicaragua for a nice tropical visit. In fact you most certainly do not need my approval to post your thoughts I just find them entertaining

No thanks, I don`t feel I need to drink in order to post. Please feel free to put my posts on your handy dandy little ignore button and then you won`t be further irritated by my sobriety, or disagreeable point of view. They are mine, I am not constrained to post only in the manner in which rr approves and appreciates. :)

I dunno... S-'09 came here and threw some chum in the water. He entered a site filled with folks the same age as his mother and was combative. Even though he apologized later, he still started his thread in an antagonistic fashion. I understand enthusiasm, but rudeness? I was his age 30 years ago. As a responsible adult, shouldn't I (and others) be helping him learn from our mistakes? Would your kids walk up to adult strangers and start flinging around insults and threats? I doubt it. I get impetuousness, but that doesn't make it right. And after all, part of the reason we post here at GSC is so that people can come here and read and avoid the mistakes we made thirty years ago.

Yes Rascal - sounds like us 30 years ago - not 20 - and do you want him walking down the same paths we did or do you want to grab him by the shirt collar and yell "NO MAN don't do it!" Or since horror is one of your favorite terms here at GSC do you want him and his loved ones to experience the same? Come on Rascal - don't give this guy room to drown - help bail him out.

But twinky he did give information. His age, a little bit about his back ground etc. He really doesn`t owe us anything at all. Seems like a nice guy to me. Young idealistic, on fire for God. He reminds me of us 20 years ago, no? Maybe I am wrong..shrug it was just how I saw things at the time. Otherwise kind and caring people who seemed hostile in their posts. I just wanted to remember that we are talking to a young man whom has not the scope or experience to understand the roots and possible pit falls of this group. I know if folks tried to talk to me about the ministry like we just did when I was his age, I`d have been a lot more provoking...lol I just felt like maybe if we were a bit more understanding, a bit less interrogating, he might get to know and appreciate some of our points of view.

Caleb - couple of thoughts for you - meant in all earnestness. A lot, if not most, of the people that are regulars here are old enough to know your mom and maybe your grandma. Anywhere from 5-25 years in TWI and for some a few more years in some offshoots where, in some or perhaps many cases, the damage continued. Everyone with a brain will respect your right to "religious" choice - heck it's your constitutional first amendment right. Bear in mind however that SOWERS has some "roots", if you will, in an organization which was so damaged, and in many ways malicious, that that is how GSC came to be - a gathering place (read mission statement) "to tell the other side of the story." Some here will be genuinely curious - some have been damaged enough that they are never going to listen to you. Go with the flow like any other networking site. Talk to the people not to the organization. No one goes to facebook and talks much about facebook - people go to facebook to yak at each other - consider GSC a microcosm of that - a group of people who have some rather odd past experiences in common (to lesser or greater degrees) who often enjoy yakking about anything from sports, cooking, to TWI. One other thought - at the age of 22 you might want to just keep some options open. Hope it all works out for you. RR

Rascal YOU need to lighten up...a lot...not a bit. Jeff is still relatively new and you of all people come down on him - not an unusual pattern though...however you of all people should know that it takes time for a lot of people...not all...some of us just walked out and were done in 10 minutes instead of spending 2 more decades publicly portraying victimhood ( oh and don't play your usual word twist game here - I didn't name any names about the 2 decades of whining - but you know darn well it's true for some)...oh yeah - GEEZ I MISSED IT - YOU DID POST IT TAKES TIME - so you lighten up on Jeff..everything you lay on Jeff you should listen to yourself. Heya Jeff - she does have a point about Caleb apologizing - let's see what the young pup has to say about sewers. And don't worry Jeff - with a temper like his he won't pass the psych exam to be in law enforcement - except maybe in Mississippi or NK.

Hey Caleb, As far as your first post and my former response I want you to realize that I meant every freakin word of it! I also want you to know that I do not hold anything personally against you and my response was not an attack at you. It is just that most all of us at the greasespot has seen that "passive aggressive crapola" that spewed out of your computer in the very first post in your thread. And I guess we all have different ways of dealing with it. Here you are looking at a possible career in law enforcement and one of the first things out of you mouth (so-to-speak) is a direct threat from you that any of us may have a p!ssed of redneck knocking at our door. Well that prospect really does not frighten me. I have kept my head in more bad situations than you are years old I'm fairly certain. And I know how to deal with that "fight or flight" adrenalin rush that goes with those situations and can still manage to hold onto my poker face through it all. Let me tell you something boy, IF YOU EVER THREATEN ANYONE HEAR AT THE GREASESPOT AGAIN I WILL BE MORE OR LESS PERMANENTLY PO'D AT YOU UNTIL YOU SEE HOW VILE THAT BEHAVIOR REALLY IS. I mean what is it, do you like the idea of threatening women, kids, and people who are still recovering from the very ministry brutallity that you have already abundantly proved yourself capable of? And then even while threatening to be pounding at some kids door as an angry redneck you have the unmitigated gall to say that you want to keep things respectful? I suggest you take a real hard look at how you and your "Great man of God" use anger and threats. And if you can honestly say that threatening people who have been so badly beat up by their TWI experiences that some of us still need to find a reason every day to keep going sounds anything like JESUS CHRIST, then fine, but I know that you will not be able to justify your brutal behavior unless you have already became settled in TWI style delusion when it comes to determining who needs tenderness vs. who needs a slap in the face. I'll tell you what, go ahead and ask your best law enforcement teacher what he/she thinks of your first post. I'm betting that if you don't actually have a change of heart that they would consider it a black mark on you for the rest of your law enforcement career. You dumbazz kid! You are not practicing a biblical faith here so far. Who taught you this crapola?

This guy seems like a drive-by. Says enough to get 4 pages of comments going, never comes back and answers anything. Must be too busy stringing chairs, or corn stooks, or whatever they have on that farm.

I think the questions here will fall into two categories: 1. How "connected" to twi and pfal is the group sponsoring S.O.W.E.R.S.? Is vp the elder talked about as if he were some kind of patriarch? Are his wrong-doings acknowledged? The plagiarism. The drunkeness. The abuse. It doesn't matter how old v2p2 was when his gramps died. v2's dad was an adult and he knew full well what was going on in that cornfield. How much "family history" does the young grasshopper know? If der Victoid is being set up as some sort of great guy - that would speak of deep-seated dishonesty. It sure seems like v2p2 is being used because of his name. 2. What are the details of the program you just completed? So many of us here saw abuse in twi - that we keep hearing playing in our heads. <===== click the link - it's been sanitized of all debbil spurts!Good luck answering these questions - hopefully the answers you give us will also help you.