Leaderboard

Ya know, this is another good reason anonymity can be a good thing. Now that the kid has "outed" himself by revealing his real name, it must be terribly difficult to come back here and offer any kind of response without hearing from his leadership. Of course, I suppose it would have been a bit difficult to conceal his identity in view of the fact that there were only 4 graduates. (assuming he was really who he said he was, not someone else using his name as a shill)

I wonder if they had "night owls" and "pajama parties" like their predecessors. :o

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,533871,00.html This is an AP story.

Hi everyone, I came across this article in the NY Times archives today and thought some of you might want to read it. It's an older one, from 1982, but some newbies here might benefit from it especially. The Psychology of the Cult Experience Cheers!

By the time I arrived on the scene, VPW was already being referred to as the (not a) MOG and the MOGOTW. How did this designation come about? When and how did he transcend being a preacher? At the time I thought it leaned towards hyperbole, but a LOT of people in TWI seemed to think it was true.

Y'all have this all wrong! MOG is "Molester of girls." See kids, initials are always explained right there on the bus, in the context or they've been abused before. But I'm glad you can't see it in the original. JT

Wow, WordWolf, it's a freakin' miracle that news of VPW's healing touch would travel that quickly. Not sure how a member of Parliament could offer someone keys to any city, as even back then members of Parliament represented regions, but who am I to question the great man o' god? Quoting that excerpt does uncover one disturbing thing: The way the mind will not let one critically assess certain things. The tendency to take something at face value while ignoring obvious problems is fascinating. At that time there was no reason to question the validity of what this guy said, and so nobody within the organization did. I can read that excerpt now and not doubt for a minute that he made it up. There's nothing included that would verify anything that he said, but it sounds pretty impressive. The difference between this account and other people's accounts of their work on the mission field is that the emphasis is placed on Christ, not on what they are doing. VPW's emphasis is on him and what he did. At least that's my take on it.

Thank you Mark. Your website seems to be a well presented exposition of various essential truths from the Word. I will be honored to contribute although all of what I have written is very first rough draft, the essential truth of which I'm convinced of because of overwhelming verificaion I see in the Word, but the detailed exposition of which I feel needs a lot of refining. With that in mind, please feel free to use what you think will contribute. I've never had anything copywrited online or anywhere else, but please do that & let me know what that means to me & what I've written. So far, this investigation into shall I say the One Spirit has developed into a 3 part series. What I'm about to post here is, I don't know, maybe a part 4, or maybe more properly an addendum. Although addendums are usually added onto a publication at the end, this might have helped ExTWI understand all the preceding and so may have been better put at the beginning - for the benefit of ExTwi. For whatever benefit, here it is: We’ve been talking about (Part 3) our uniqueness as members in the Body of Christ – the particular nature of our membership, and the process involved in the development of that uniqueness. That Part 3 post had these two things to say at the end: “There is no membership APART from the One Body.” and “There is yet one clear MAJOR impediment to this input placed in the way of God’s energizing by previous TWI teaching that I would like to take out of the way.” Jesus’ job description in this process is clear. He is in charge. What does that mean? I reasonably can figure that I’ll learn more of what it means to have him in charge as I engage in the process. But that much is crystal. He is in charge. But what about me? What am I supposed to do? Let him be in charge. I have to let him be in charge if I want to grow into my unique membership in the One Body. That much is crystal. As to letting Jesus be Lord, there is a significant word in 1 Cor. 12:3b, *** no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. This exclusively identifies saying that “Jesus is the Lord” as a spiritual matter – a fundamentally important and crucial spiritual matter. That’s why the statement is in 1 Cor. 12 that starts out, “Now concerning spiritual matters, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.” The “one clear MAJOR impediment” to God’s spiritual input into our lives that I refer to above has to do with who or what energizes the spiritual input into our lives. Do we? Does a spirit within? Does the spirit within – or without? Does God? Does Jesus Christ? 1 Corinthians 12:6 says, “And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.” The words “operations” and “worketh” are forms of the same Greek root from which we get the words energy and energize. The word diversities is the Greek word diaresis meaning appointments. Clearly all the energizings of all the spiritual matters in all of us (that verse 1 says Paul would not have us ignorant of) are energized by God via his choice or option. For all you ExTWI, I think VP did a rather creditable job of exposition, IN PART, on this truth that God chooses and energizes every energizing of the spirit in all of us. So much so that he points out that in verse 11, “But all these worketh [that same word energizes] that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will” that “one and the selfsame” Spirit is “a unique triple reflexive emphasizing one, self, and same - & dividing is that word choosing. In triplicate, God is doing the choosing and the energizing of every energizing (operating) of the spirit is God’s prerogative. The big problem with that is although VP points out in this section of RTHST that God operates (energizes) all the energizings at his option, he ends it by saying that we operate. I could show where VP, like Eve, subtracts a word from the Word, adds a word to the Word, & ends up changing the Word to its exact opposite, but you can do the same by a close inspection of that section in RTHST should you care to do so. I did point out Eve’s process with regard to Matt’s “exposition” of why God gave each of us an individually unique gift of holy spirit, but Matt declined to answer that from a biblical point of view. It is pertinent to note that both Matt & VP needed to insert the factor of an individual spirit (an addition to the Word) to justify their theology. Obviously, that’s the exact opposite of what the Word says. The Word says God operates (energizes); VP says we operate. In the midst of VP’s duplication of Eve’s process, VP says the spirit within us energizes. From there he uses the analogy of a car battery. God has now been reduced to a car battery that WE operate. I know that analogies connect to truth in only 1 or 2 points, but there is such a thing as lame analogies. This is a lame analogy if there ever was one. Proverbs 26:7 The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools. The legs upon which this analogy rests are not equal. A major point in the analogy, God who energizes all spiritual matters, has been reduced to a battery that WE now operate at our will. What can I say except LAME. This idea that we operate the spirit at our own will was carried out to the point that all the definitions of the manifestations of the spirit (BTW, VP pointed out that there is only The Manifestation of The Spirit, not nine manifestations, but he continued to use the terminology that he already stated was erroneous – sloppy and fraught with error increasing) were preceded with these words: The manifestation of *** is your operation of the God-given ability whereby you may receive from God by His revealing it to you. Many words, no? For those of you who have run that through your brains until it made sense, that makes sense. For those of you who have never heard that, or never run it through enough (anything run through the cranium enough makes sense), your response may be WTF. Either way, that’s a lot or words. Not to be found in the Word, surely something so basic to the children of God doesn’t need to be so hard to be entreated (Matt’s proclivity to hard to entreat posts notwithstanding). The 1st century believers certainly didn’t seem to need such theology. So, how did the 1st century believers operate the spirit so effectively (sorry, they didn’t operate the spirit), how did they manifest all 9 (sorry, there aren’t 9 manifestations), how did they with great power give witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, great grace being upon them all? Now, that’s a good question. Back to the basics of I Cor. 12, verse 11b says, “[the Spirit was] dividing to every man severally as he will. “As he [the man] will.” All we are ever to do is believe God. E.W. Bullinger had something pertinent to say here: “Man MUST BELIEVE GOD in what He says in His Word; and he must believe ALL that God says. In what sharp contrast does this set all that goes to make up RELIGION! Religion occupies man entirely with himself; with what he das DONE, with what he CAN do, and with what he must DO. God would occupy man with HIMSELF, and with what He has SAID. This it is which gives its character to all “religion” in the present day; “Man’s Day.” Man is exalted, and God set aside. Man’s doings are substituted for man’s believing. This is why, on all hands, mans WORkS are substituted for God’s words. And as the importance of man’s works increases in his estimation, so God’s Word decreases.” Of course, one may say that Bullinger didn’t understand the field of the spirit to the degree that we do, but to that I say that the foundational truths may never be correctly departed from, only built upon. Who gets the glory? Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works[same word for energizings], lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works [same word for energizings – in this case God’s option and God’s energizing], which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. God is energizing. We should walk in those energizings. Ever realize after the fact that God had been working in your heart to will and to do of his good pleasure, even though, at the time it was happening, you weren’t aware of it? God was energizing at his option, realizing your believing heart even when you weren’t aware of it – that’s how he can do above what you can ask or think according to the power that works (God’s working) in you. If you are aware of God’s energizing within, so much the better; you are walking by the spirit in an immediate sense, but you are still playing catch up. God is energizing; you are following his energizing. Even if your following is inspired in the sense of in breathing – you speak and act in immediate synch with God’s leading, you are still acting as Jesus said, “My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.” Isn’t that so cool? God energizes first, so you can carry the energy (energize) the act to completion. No one’s free will is messed with. God has so set up spiritual things that we (God & I, or God & us, we all being in concert as Jesus prayed) would all be one with him and God the way that he was/is one with God. The difference? In the TWI model, God has already moved; all waits on human slugs to operate. In the Word, the manifestation of the spirit is (present tense) being given to all – God is operating. Attend to your believing self in whom God is operating.

May I simply puke now? WIerwille's concept of the "greatness of God's Word" was based on his ability to get an erection.

Orange Book, pg-29-31. ========= Whenever I read this record from Mark 3, it reminds me of the times I was practicing the principles of the greatness of God's Word in other countries of the world. On one occasion when I was teaching in Jubbulpore, India, a lady who had worked in a mission service for thirty years was delivered by God's power of a number of sicknesses which appeared incurable. This deliverance caused such a stir in the city of Jubbulpore the morning after the miracle occurred, that when my family and I were ready to board the train and leave Jubbulpore, hundreds of people gathered at the railroad depot. This crowd, which was composed mainly of Hindus, wanted me to lay my hands on them individually because they thought that I must have some special powers in my hands since I had laid my hands on the woman the previous day. They felt that if I just laid my hands on them, they too would be delivered. Just before the train on which we were traveling moved out of the depot, a high-caste Hindu, whose paralyzed arm was hanging limp at his side, ran up to our railroad compartment. He said to me, "Will you pray for my arm?" However, he immediately added, "But I do not believe in your Jesus." What would you have done? I asked him if he believed God would deliver him. He said, "I believe that God will heal me if you pray for me, but I do not believe in your Jesus." So again I asked him, "Do you believe God will set you free?" And he said, "I believe God will heal me, but I do not believe in your Jesus." I laid my hands on him, and I prayed that God would set him free in the name of Jesus Christ. When I finished I said to him, "Now lift your arm." He began to put it up, and suddenly he thrust up both of his arms. He leaped and shouted with tears streaming down his face. Once he had lifted his arm a little, he realized the miracle. He was totally set free. About then the train began moving, and I said, "Praise God; thank God that you were healed in the name of Jesus Christ." At the next stop, a man came to our compartment in the train, saying that he was representing his master who wanted to come and meet the man of God He said his master was so-and-so, a member of Parliament in New Delhi, who was also riding on the train. The member of Parliament then came to our compartment to tell Mrs Wierwille and me that what he had seen in Jubbulpore was the most tremendous Christian event that he had ever witnessed- that a man of God would bless all God's people irrespective of whether they were Christian or Hindu. He offered us the keys to his city and said that any time we wanted to minister in India, the doors of India and the Far East would be open to us to teach the accuracy and the greatness of God's Word. "

"The Way:Living in Love", copyright 1972. pg-34 "But what The Doctor teaches in that class in 33 hours I couldn't teach you in 33 hours. He's been doing research and teaching for 30 years now and he's a terrific teacher." pg-82. "They were black and white clips from the TV program called 'The Teacher' that he had made out of Lima in 1963." pg-215. "It had never happened before that a man of God and his whole family went on a missionary tour. And I went unaffiliated, not under the flag of any denomination." "

Doesn't "prove all things" simply mean to test things? That's what it says in the NIV anyway. When I say "hold on to the good", I mean to not be bitter. We all know bitterness will suck the life right out of you. While it may feel like we're actually hurting the person who hurt us, the reality is we continue to be their victim as long as we remain in a state of bitterness. However, pointing out abuse and naming it for what it is is not being bitter, it's being honest. Reading posts here on GSC has helped me to put words and definition to my abuse and to bring it more into focus. When I'm able to do that, I'm better able to heal. When I hear, "just get over it", I hear "deny it, pretend it didn't hurt". That's like having a broken leg and trying to live the rest of one's life without getting the bone set.

God first hi chockfull I see one thing you see a different thing no problem here because I love and you love me there are just small matters I love you love Roy

Much of this parallels what happened in The Way. Substitute MOG for "chosen one". Substitute Motorcoach for Alamo's "special" bedroom arrangement. Substitute Harley's for"ponies in the backyard". Substitute babes in the word for "baby Christians". Note that followers were expected to live on minimal subsistence while the leader lived like a king. Note that they had their own special language and were expected to maintain an attitude of submission. And so on. 1.Holding people against their will Most of this was of a psychological nature. When you are stuck in the middle of nowhere with no money or transportation, it can feel like you are being held. Add that to the "hedge of protection" concept that basically states you can never really leave "the household" without leaving yourself open to an attack from the boogie man. And, as was pointed out, there is a documented incident on the front page of this very website, that details the house arrest, at gun point, of a former Way leader. (Through the fog) 2. Withholding food. Yes. In fellow laborers, we had a food co-op. If you didn't make your weekly payment, you had to sit at meals with the group but were not allowed to eat. It was not permitted for anyone to offer you part of their share or offer to make a payment on your behalf. (We found ways around this one.) 3. Beaten with boards I never personally witnessed anyone being physically beaten. Many of our posters who spent their childhood in The Way, though, have posted first hand accounts of severe corporal punishment for misbehavior and non-compliance. One poster has stated that she and her husband were admonished, by leadership, to discipline their child with a 2x4. Armed guards walked the various Way properties and functions. One poster here has stated it was part of his responsibility, as a HQ staffer, to maintain the evesdropping "bugs" in the BRC. So I would have to conclude that MANY similar things happened in The Way.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,533871,00.html "Alamo's 'Child Bride' Says Evangelist Leader Controlled All Aspects of Life TEXARKANA, Ark. — In the years after evangelist Tony Alamo took the 14-year-old girl as a bride, she said, she caught glimpses of her father on the surveillance cameras that fed into the minister's office. As her father walked by outside, monitors provided views from every angle. But even though only a few walls and doors separated them, leaving Alamo's home without permission was unthinkable. Alamo was a prophet, she'd been taught. He was "God's chosen one." And she was scared. "I felt uncomfortable asking Tony to see my dad," the woman, now 20, testified at his federal trial on charges that he took underage girls across state lines for sex. "So you had to ask Tony's permission before you could go outside and see your father?" a prosecutor asked. "Yes." The woman, who left Alamo's compound in Arkansas three years ago, was one of many witnesses whose testimony offered a rare glimpse inside the evangelist's secretive ministry. They said Alamo made the decisions: who got married, what children were taught in school, who got clothes, who was allowed to eat. He also chose which of his followers to "marry," witnesses said — including one girl who was 8 years old. "He had control over everything," testified a 30-year-old woman who said she was another child bride. Families moved state to state at Alamo's command, living in apartments, trailers or houses owned by the ministry. The church had a language of its own: Alamo as "Papa Tony," new members as "baby Christians" and those suspect few living outside as "visiting Christians." At his compounds in Arkansas, students learned Alamo-approved curriculums, with ninth-grade biology tossed aside because the course material discussed sex, one witness said. Alamo began separating the sexes in the 1990s, and by the time he was released from prison following his 1994 tax evasion conviction, brothers and sisters often lived separate lives, another woman said. In the 1980s, Alamo's ministry sold elaborately designed denim jackets made by members to celebrities. At the compound more recently, followers filled out request forms for everything, whether clothing or toiletries. Alamo himself approved all expenditures, witnesses said." ================ That's a lot of different things. Which one did you want to know about- if anything like it happened in twi that we know about?

"The Man of God of the Whole World." "Is 'the MOG of our times' biblical/godly?" "False Prophet or good minister with problems?"

" Is the MOG of our times Biblical/Godly?" "VP, who called himself the "Man of God," which was inscribed on his little bracelet, was not the MOG."

Well Runner...I guess that falls under the copout, er, I mean category of "revelation changes as circumstances change". You know, circumstances changed for The Way when 2/3 of their contributors dropped off so God changed the revelation. Suddenly it became "off the Word" to do such sinful things as buy a nice home for your family to live in, or improve yourself by getting an education.

I'm sure the terminology and implications have evolved over the years. However, I can remember him being called "our father in The Word" and "The man of God for the World" and "The man of God for our time" in the early 1970's.

The odd thing is that if what they have is so unbelievably wonderful as they tell you, you would think that they would want to share it with the rest of the world and correct our misperceptions instead of running and hiding, or just never coming out of the wood work in the first place. Isnt there something about "hiding your light under a bushel". I have sat with Bishops and Archbishops, Higher ups of various denominations and 95% of the ones that I have talked to are straightforward and honest even in regards to the obvious problems that they face. In other words even if I dont agree with them on certain matters at the least they deal with things in an honorable way as part of their 'witness', most of them I have genuine appreciation for....and although I would never use a phrase like "man of God" to describe anyone, some I admire and might consider it if I had no other words available to me. I really dont understand the "we have some great secret that you dont" mentality, or the John Lynn type driveby "buy my book" postings of a few years ago either. Christianity especially the organized kind is hard enough to get my head around under the best of circumstances let alone someone slamming me with "buy my stuff" "Bumper Sticker Christianity" replete with false bravado, secrecy, and an attitude does nothing for me, it holds about as much spiritual appeal as Billy Mays hawking OxyClean or Vince selling ShamWows (absolutely amazing!!! act now!! bring your credit card!!) on 3 AM TV. I'll give him a chance by fercryinoutloud how the heck does he expect to convince anyone of anything with his current stance. He seems like a good kid, Working all these hours I hope that he is saving up for either his years of therapy or his years of alcoholism when it finally dawns on him how they took advantage of him and his naivete. O---and have the damn courage to speak up Saint Vic Jr, Im talking to you, paint your own damn house you lazy weasel

Interesting and predictable. Yup. A young buck from a cult-spinoff slides into the forum sideways and starts yammering about the great new fellowship/class/sign-here sorta thing he's into. He's full of the latest-n-greatest of RFAL (Revised For Abundant Living.) Right in the middle of a big ol' forum of ex-wayfers. Yup. Bold. I guess. He makes you want to like him and he says some funny country-hic things that are a hoot. I get a mind picture of a big ol' corn-fed Iowa boy at a computer, pecking away at a keyboard with his calloused fingers. Sorta cute. But as you read his posts, you know there's a hook in those posts he's putting on the forum. He's fishing for something'. And the little rules in post #1 - waz that all about? Nope, he wasn't here to bash anyone but.... somehow he's got something wayyyyy better and boy, you'd better not have anything to say in disagreement unless you experienced it first hand. Um... yeah. Okay. Whatever. We've never heard THAT before. <_<

I generally try to avoid running into people in general. I hear the fines are too steep and the possibility of jail is just way too unappealing. Though there are a few ex-wayfers that might make it all worthwhile.... *Note the tongue firmly planted in my cheek*

so, what are you supposed to do in the mean time? Camp on their doorstep or front yard, like a vulture?

As I have mentioned before my dearest friend for more than 30 years is an ex-wayfer. As a matter of fact she is the one who "witnessed" to me. twi plays no part in our friendship. Really never did. Jackie and I live in the same town and hooked up some years ago. We were in a way home together a lifetime ago. She is a true genuine person. My precious Stan and Claudia live in the same town as well. Now you want to talk about real... true... genuine... folks!!! I don't know where my life would be without them. There is none other like them. Our love for each other runs deep. So, yes, I suppose I do "run into" ex-wayfers....