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In regards to the recent trend of "is twi worth our efforts anymore"...my opinion is that if twi is faltering and shrinking for "various" reasons...it's not the time to let up on them...now is the time to put the boots to them and finish them off...after that, we can go after the splinter groups like nazi war criminals... This entire Wierwillian philosophy of "power of the mind" should probably be labeled as witchcraft...his disciples continue on like mold growing in a dark damp place. I am repulsed by what they do to people. They rape the mind and ravage the soul. ...Because of what they have done...I will continue to do the Mexican hat dance on their faces.... Any thoughts?

Well I wont check any questions that have to do with open or transparent, honest, truthful or forthcoming--Those can immediately be checked right off the list I will however give them an "A" for hiding well under the bushes, as well as fearfulness. I'll give them great marks for those, although those arent personally my top priorities of things to look for in a religious group. ....St. Vic Jr. come on over---Where are you? Show us what you've got--we are all interested in what you have to say- Stand and be counted Dude

and whoever anonymous member marked down the last post.. lets look at a few facts and reality here.. the numbnuts down south failed to "get a life".. perhaps one or more did..but what happened? Now their little camping "adventure" is cloaked in darkness.. why? It wouldn't survive the light of day.. feel free to disagree all you want..

Yep.. I couldn't have said it better.. You'd think they'd just go get a life, and be satisfied with it.. but nooooo...

Maybe..Id genuinely be interested in talking to the "Great Man of God"...I talk to just about everyone I meet about their spiritual beliefs eventually...normal people, "important' people--It makes no matter to me....Some of it is very interesting and enlightening, some of it is completely nuts--- but I do give them the opportunity to speak. In some manner or another I learn something from it all. Some of it is really extraordinary stuff BUT I have never before heard anyone (except in way circles)refer to themselves as some great one, even the higher ups in well known organizations. I have also found very very few people in life that remain so hidden and secretive as way folk or now the SOWERS. Why is that? Whats the big deal? and what exactly are they afraid of if "God" indeed is on their side? All the badgering in the world wouldnt change whatever great thing that they have found if its genuine---If its just a concoction of course it will be laid bare in short order...so far they arent even willing to talk or be open. As an organization on the free market with big claims they have opened themselves up to honest inquiry. If they refuse to acknowledge and answer simple questions it says much more about them, than all the badgering in the world could ever lay on them

Have you seen the photo of these kids? I don't think any of them need a "fat farm".

I would not badger him either.. I'd start all over again, calmly with the original set of questions.. what are you doing that's any different from the old ministry? Are you aware of the abuse that occurred in a "send them home any time you feel like it for whatever reason" environment? Who is on "staff"? What exactly are their qualifications? What kind of safeguards are put in place to protect the "students" from the "teachers"? Then we can proceed to a few other questions.. there's quite a log jam.. what is the sleep schedule for the "participants".. how about food? Is the menu good, or is it near to way corps standards of starvation? Do you REALLY think you are a "great man of God"? If so, why? If not, why do you let your pledgelings refer to you in an inappropriate manner? Do you require the trainees to sign a hold-harmless statement? well.. I don't think the questions are really that hard.. and my questions are not directed to the new "graduate".. but to the ones that are supposedly running the thing..

I can only speak for myself. I have no desire to badger the young man. I would genuinely like to know what the program was like on a daily basis so I could compare it to the program I participated in. Maybe it's completely different. I don't know. Nor will I ever know unless someone from the program steps forward to field questions in a factual, unemotionally tainted manner. Even the most basic of questions such as "what did they eat?", "Did they follow an exercise regimen?" and so forth, go unanswered. It certainly makes one curious why there would be any need for secrecy.

The reality is that most here don't really want to do anything other than badger the heck out of the guy. There are very few people that I've been acquainted with that can hold their own in that kind of situation. Although one would think that four hours a day of bible study/training, along with four hours a day of disciplined physical labor would adequately prepare someone to hold one's own in a debate or arm wresting competition.

It pretty much already has--Here and at a hundred other sites--Even 99% of the people who once believed it have grown up and seen it for the swiss cheese theology that it is and moved on. It never held water and it certainly hasnt held any water over time. It never was the E=mc2 great revelation to change the world, it was more like a glass of Tang that was empty of any nutrients and had a very short shelf life. If it was released today it would be laughed at as a bizarre relic of a bygone era--I dont extend much to the honchos but they must know that

Interesting that each category got at least one vote. Geez, I guess we're just not like-minded. JT

The current thread on "Inactive Notices" started me thinking. Why has The Way put PFAL, the class that started it all, on inactive status? This is not so much about why it was replaced, but why it remains in mothballs, long after the vociferous herald of "present truth" has slipped into obscurity. It was promoted as the greatest inroad to Biblical insight since the first century. It promised to answer questions that have plagued mankind for millennia. It came with a lengthy laundry list of ways it could improve one's life (ie: The Green Card) One poster has even suggested it was God-Breathed and, as such, replaces The Bible. They even tried to upgrade it once, in 1977, but found, much to their chagrin, that it was simply too "perfect" to be improved upon. So why wouldn't The Way hold it up like a cherished treasure for all the world to behold and revel in? Are they afraid it will come under a level of scrutiny that couldn't have been imagined at its conception? Are they afraid it will stand naked, with all its imperfections and deformities, in front of the world's picture window? It's like building a house and pretending the foundation doesn't exist. Perhaps some current or recent (non)member could come to the fore and offer some insight.

It appears they are more fat headed than pudgy,To take an old sick concept,where they saw what happened in twi,and still continue is fat head as well as numb nuts stupid.

Yep.. these kids don't need a fat farm. But that appears to be what they are on.. Pudgy, overweight "staff" might benefit more from the program.. half a year manually pulling stumps and splitting firewood should just about do it..

I dunno, I think this is something cults just DO. Even the RC Church has old dogma they don't like to talk about anymore. Just ask "Mr". Claus or your local cafeteria menu planner (with all that fish stored up for Fridays). And The JWs are trying pretty hard to distance themselves from the teachings of their founder - Charles Taze Russell. I think maybe he had one too many "prophecies" that didn't pan out so well. And the Mormons don't spend a whole lotta time talking about the early daze of their church either. Like the habit Mr. Smith had of prophecying by looking at a black rock placed in a white hat. Or Mr. Smith's rather dubious translation of Egyptian heiroglyphs (this was pre-Rosetta Stone) that became another "foundational" book for the early Mormons. I think it was called "The Book of Abraham" - and turned out to be basically made up out of whole cloth, the "translation" being entirely erroneous.

He talks a little quickly and uses adult language, but how refreshing is this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIaV8swc-fo&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Erandi%2Eorg%2Fsite%2F&feature=player_embedded

"These kids" don't need a fat farm - I'm just saying that the regimen might actually produce real transformation rather than package free labor under the guise of spiritual enlightenment.

Ok, let me reframe that - it might appear that most here don't really want to do anything other than badger the heck out of the guy. However, four hours a day of disciplined physical labor along with careful eating over a period of nearly a year would probably make someone a winner on the biggest loser. Why doesn't the guy just start a fat farm? Now that would be a transforming experience.

and the kid who apparently runs this thing.. I think he is just as inept and unprepared. I don't think he had a clue of what the "elders" were dragging him into.. so they want to know what kind of reception they will get in the "world".. I think they found out. There will be many, many questions. "Oh.. that's nice. Who is your group affiliated with.." Oh, nobody in particular.. "who did you say is on staff?" well, there's me.. "They were trained by who?" oh, just spent a few years in a work study program on a farm in Ohio..

You would think. and its supposed to be an "honors" program, at that.. the "best of the best" and all..high achievers.

This just occurred to me - whoever wants to could start pounding TWI with requests to get the video version put on DVD and made available to all people who took the class - free of charge, of course. I, unfortunately was never privy to the video version, which I was told was "superior" to the audio version I had to keep myself awake through.

That was the first post. About two months after I requested information. So that makes it going on about two years.. no real information. One guys shows up and says he'll answer questions, as long as they aren't too hard.. and then slips away into the night.

Maybe they are waiting for the right kind of offer. Some offshoots think every word in it drips gold. da way could retain ownership.. and just sell limited "publishing" rights of sorts.. I'm almost surprised they haven't advertised it on ebay.. but then about ninety five percent of those in offshoots are grads anyway. Legally, they could not be charged again.. maybe that's it. There's just no money in it any more.. there are probably enough illegal copies floating around, that those who wanted one bad enough probably already has one. But I'll admit, it is odd.. where else is the "greatest work" of the "founder" of a group buried like this? look at the scientologists.. it would be like boxing and locking up dianetics and all..

I'm with Rum. Let's just party over His victory. Of course, I could go for surf and turf every year. Porterhouse, ribeyes, NY strips, ribs, lobster, crab, oysters on the half shell, shwimps (not a typo)infinity choices every year.

I've thought about it. I'm not sure the time is ripe yet.

Well Krys - isn't this the time to bring your biological training to the table? Maybe distribute some mitochondrial destabilizers?

How old is this v2p2?

Groucho you are right on the money IMHO. We here at GreaseSpot have been "bragging" (ahem) about all their shenanigans since the beginning. I think we played a role in wearing them down. This is the time to "go in for the kill" so to speak....not let them get up and regroup. I'm with you.

The Mexican Hat Dance! I couldn't agree with your more. Now if the other countries who lack knowledge of there decietful ways would learn! I think America is pretty much aware of their snake oil sales pitch.

The publisher's description of this book sounds very interesting. I particularly like... "Where personal daily interaction with God is more important than institutional church structures, where faith is more about a way of life than a belief system, where being authentically good is more important than being doctrinally right." Tzaia, when I think of Christianity the religion I think of Jesus' words..."you draw nigh unto Me with your lips but your heart is far from Me." See, honey, even He lived with it. Don't let your colleagues cause you any fret. You go on loving and giving and thinking just that, as always, no matter what others may say or do. I struggled for a while with the attending a church thing. I don't now. It doesn't happen. Don't see it happening. Maybe in August when Mars is suppose to be closet to earth than in an infinity it could happen. I don't need the "institutional church structure" to live and give love. The last part of the publisher's description I found very interesting because it has been my experience in most "institutional church structures" that being "doctrinally right" IS being "authentically good." I am going to purchase this book, Tzaia.

Doojable brought this up in another thread. I thought it might apply here.. This is the complete quiz. http://www.factnet.org/cults/Toxic_Faith/index.html Might make a good assessment for those who exit your little "program".. or is it you don't care..

I would so love to hear you expand on this if you feel so inclined. The mind picture of it all just raises so many questions.

Nothing like the benefits of group-think..

Sounds like the ladies fron The View but they do mention TWI. <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value=" name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

That makes a lot of sense.. box his ears in private.. then "reward" him with followers who praise his name.. rewards/punishment.. yep. it is obvious that mac can't do it on his own. Pathetic.. idea of "witnessing" is trespassing on way property. and pa.. apparently didn't have enough power to keep rosie, or was it loy, from tossing him out on his rear.. pathetic. usurped by those who learned the "craft" from his pa (gramps).. I sense a great deal of thinly veiled anger there..

OK knowing my reputation for cynicism let me preface this post with the promise that the question I ask and the reasoning I use to come up with the question are genuine and not meant to derail, demean or in any other way devalue this thread. Question: Why would I care what Jesus' birthday was? Unless I was a Pharisee of the times perhaps and watching over the young lad to make sure he got his Bar Mitzvah on time, or some such other calendar driven event, his birth would seem to be pale in the face of his sacrifice and resurrection. The birth was simply an entrance into the world - an unpleasant place at best; little noticed by contemporaries at that; and not noticed by the local powers (Rome & Jerusalem). The death and resurrection was the culmination of Jesus' public and indisputable victory over evil and the promise to all mankind of their ultimate victory as well. Now those dates - heck yeah - those are worth remembering regularly. Hey Martha!!! Tomorrow we can party and celebrate how Jesus kicked Satan's azz right into the 16th sub-basement of the heavenly outhouses. Make sure you pick up some tequila and limes on the way home from work! Ohhh - I'm a month early?!?! So what let's celebrate the victory anyway! Further, if I am going to watch dates, verify actual dates through several calendar changes etc, I got bad news for those congregational types. I am really going to celebrate Jesus' victory with some margueritas and some grilled steaks. No need for putting on a suit and tie and sitting in an uncomfortable chair while someone intones the same snot as last year. Let's party over his victory. Steaks this year! Seafood next year. None of that repetitive congregational snot.