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Sunesis, ((snickers)) Look who's talking, lady. Look who's talking. And many times you don't even see it. And the same arguments for supernatural occurances could be said re: other characters in the Bible. Or other characters in other religions, and the respective followers believe in them just as much as you do yours. Uuhhmmm, ... you don't? (For an example of why I voice my doubt about this, check out your posts re: Obama, ... then come back and lie to me again.) Tell ya what. You look at the critter you see in the mirror, and tell her exactly that, m-kay? Mark, ((here comes the onslaught, ... ;) )) You, no doubt, have read in that letter where Jefferson explains _why_ there is the 1st Amendment. So that it supports separation of church and state. And, (IMNSHO) for it to be effective, that wall must go _both_ ways. Has to, or else that 'wall' is a sham. And frankly, if your church (or any other) _needs_ the support of the government in order for it to carry out its doctrine, well, as Ben Franklin once said: Think about that one for a moment. How about _that_ as being a proper usage of said wall.

Community Reformed Church reborn as The Way The website How long before they have to change their name yet again? And, why on earth would anyone want a name that could easily be confused with TWI?

My husband is basically non-confrontational. He usually keeps his mouth shut. On a number of occasions we would get called to do stuff that he didn't want to do, like clean up someone else's yard, whatever. At the time, we had 3 small kids and quite a bit of work we were doing on our own home (which we were buying), so essentially, he didn't volunteer to help out. So, someone would invariably ask me to volunteer him, and I'd invariably tell them no. A conversation would go something like this (usually on the phone): We're cleaning x's house and need someone to clean out the gutters. Would your husband be available to help out at 10am Saturday? Me: No. Them: I'd like to talk to him myself. Me: No you're not. I already know he's not going to have the time, because he has plenty to do around here. Them: He needs to grow a pair. I can't recall how many times I was told my husband needed to grow a pair, but it was more than a couple of times. Why would someone say something like that?

This last post has been bugging me steadily since I posted it yesterday. I don't REALLY mind the crudeness, because LCM was often a very, very crude man. And when describing his actions it seems abundantly clear that he was often rude, crude, and lewd in his private actions and in the things he did and said as the president of TWI. So while typing words that themselves are crude I feel there is justice in describing LCM's lewd, crude, and rude behavior with language that makes it very, very plain that in spite of the times that many Greasespotters legitimately remember interaction with LCM that was kind and even times he was charming, that he used his charm to cover up and give people reason to excuse his many, many lewd actions. What I DO REGRET in the previous post is ascribing lewd actions to LCM that I can not be specifically certain of. I can not with certainty ascribe to LCM specifically encouraging his wife's fairly thoroughly reported lesbian activity. The truth is that I can not be 100% certain that LCM thought about it at all, except to feel fairly certain that considering the crapola he learned from Wierwille that it is possible he considered his marriage to serve as a kind of sexual healing for his wife. But as this possibility is concerning a man such as LCM whose many lewd actions have been testified to by many people it also seems likely that any considerations he might have had as concerning "sexual healing" were twisted by the things he learned by Wierwille. So as to the specific issue of how LCM's lewdness might have played out in his marriage I regret speaking beyond that which I can feel certain of, but not for using crude language to refer to a crude, rude, and lewd man such as LCM. I also think that I will not do a lot of that anymore, unless I feel especially certain that it might actually help someone see LCM for what he was, but in most cases tried to hide or simply put a pr style spin on for the sake of the TWI faithful for years now.

I'm so thankful my family didn't kick me to the curb like I did to them because of their unbeliever status. I've done some apologizing too. I even apologized to a child friend for being judgmental of her life-style. Who am I to tell her how to live her life? We were so self-righteous. We were so busy seeing how effed up everyone else was that we didn't see our own crap. What a joke. What a tragedy. What a cult.

Somewhat off-topic, but this reminds me of an old joke: A newlywed couple enter their new home together. The husband (much larger than his wife) takes off his pants and tells her to put them on. They're obviously much too big, and she says, "I can't wear these!" "That's right," he replies,"because I wear the pants in this family!" The wife then takes off her panties and tells her husband to put them on. "I can't get into these!" he exclaims. "That's right, and you WON'T be getting into those until you change your attitude!" :lol:

A dickless Cabinet Member and a sacless Department Coordinator once went before Queen Q-tip herself to tell her Mrs. B was wearing the pants. What was Mrs B doing? Exactly what her husband had "told" her to do. Absolutely nothing wrong. Was I ever confronted? Did anyone ask me? Was Almighty Q-tip receiving revelation? She was too busy to get the facts. What did any of it have to do with anything? There are a few trees on grounds missing some a lot of bark. Who do you think they represent?

WW.....you beat me to it. I was just about to say the same thing. Wierwille was idolized......warts and all.

Mark, You are not seriously telling me that taxes impede charitable giving are you? Because of net and gross? Well, I guess you are. . . not much I can say to that kind of logic. I think you really miss the heart of the matter. One thing is not the same as the other and God does not say if your taxes are too high. . . don't give. He says pay your taxes. He says give. And he tell us do to things without whining or grumbling, moaning and complaining. Do you think God actually NEEDS your money? Money is a great heart indicator. Render unto the government what is theirs and to God what is His. . . doesn't get much simpler than that. . . . Jesus did not say if your taxes are being used this way don't give. . . if it has an effect on the net don't give. If you want to give 10% of your income. . . you know what you earned. . . give it. ________________________________________ As for the examples you cited about countries that overthrow despotic government. . . did you read the verses I gave you? Did you follow my line of reasoning? God is Sovereign over nations and NOTHING happens that He does not allow. God does not carry out His will in spite of man. . . we are ALL subject TO His will. . . . and if He has a purpose for something. . . Forget it. . . it is not worth more of my time. . . you figure it out.

I think they thought you were controlling him instead of the other way around. I understand that you weren't controlling him....you were just helping him keep his own calendar focused on the family. They wanted him to tell you that he would make up his own mind and come over to do the gutters like THEY wanted. I hope that made sense.

I have no idea what you mean by the last part of this. . . I was just sharing part of MY life with you. We are to love our neighbor as ourselves. . . if your neighbor or enemy is hungry do you check their employment status first? I would just read the specific context of the verse you quote and why Paul said this. . . or not. God looks on the heart and I don't think Jesus is going to be mad at us if our worst sin is we were too kind. I don't question your heart in the least. . . as I have told you before. . . you have helped me. :)

Taxes are not charity. How they are dispersed is not charitable giving. Do you understand the difference?. . . . Taxes do NOT impede charitable giving required of a Christian. Perhaps your understanding of this needs tweaking. Even the most dictatorial governments prevent lawlessness. . . even or especially the most tyrannical ones. What's next. . . Hitler? Like I didn't see that coming. Hubby owes me five. Pharoah, Pilate, Caiphas (Who prophesied!) Did God use them? He used all of them. . . . for HIS purpose and they were bad men. . . He used the most TRAGIC of events. . . . the death of His Son for good. . . for His glory. It is not about us, but about God. His purpose which may not be ours. Should be. Persecuted Christians in dangerous countries submit to laws and governments. . . .even to the point of death, but still perfectly obeying God. . . Did Jesus perfectly submit to God's will? Did He overthrow the Romans? Isn't that what they were crying for Him to do? Was God's providence and sovereignty what happened? Just as it is in the examples you presented. For the LORD Most High is awe-inspiring, a great King over all the earth. He subdues peoples under us and nations under our feet. He makes nations great, then destroys them; He enlarges nations, then leads them away. Ah, Lord GOD ! You Yourself made the heavens and earth by Your great power and with Your outstretched arm. Nothing is too difficult for You! Who should not fear You, King of the nations? Let the heavens be glad and the earth rejoice, and let them say among the nations, "The LORD is King!" From one man He has made every nation of men to live all over the earth and has determined their appointed times and the boundaries of where they live. . . God chose Israel and then raised up Egypt to enslave them. . . then delivered them and drown the Egyptians! God is sovereign over nations. . . nothing happens that He does not ordain.

Hey WG, It is the HCSB(Holman Christian Standard Bible) the version I use . . . Romans 13:1 is about civil obedience. Some theories have it as an interpolation. . . I don't think so. . . but that is me. Taxes don't take the choice out of charity. . . you can still give to whomever you wish. :) Sounds like a tough place you worked. . . I am sorry you have no sympathy for these kids. Most of them sure as heck break my heart. That is no way to grow up. No way to live.

Nice thread! Those trips down Memory Lane aren't always quite as rosy as we remembered (wince). Shellon, good on you for having the guts to apologize. And good on all those people who took your phone calls, and accepted the apologies. You must have some great family and friends. Growth and healing to our hearts is always possible.

How long has it been since we've had a caption contest? Well, that's TOO LONG! So caption this... <img src=http://www.rock103.com/pages/crew/pics/monkeybusiness.jpg>

LOL tazia at the time we felt like we were flaking out and really until I found Grease spot it felt like we had quit on God's Word.. We truly left before so much of what you all left about happened.. not that it wasn't going on but since we were in the more remote and less populated areas we really didn't know most of this stuff.. We just knew we were not happy ... Well he was not happy, I was beginning to really question and One night I told him how much sometimes I wished we were not twig coordinators and that it was difficult to be watched by all of the people in your twig who were just waiting for you to make a mistake, (we were running a twig near the Limb) and he said what if we left. and I said you mean Idaho and he said no I mean the Way. Would you come with me.. and I said with out a moment of hesitation of course I would come with you I love you why wouldn't I... Two nights later we left in the middle of the night Minus much of our belongings.. we took only what we could carry in our back packs... We felt like we were failures, we were struggling with making enough money to be financially stable and had been for over a year. and Hubby had been reamed out several times... We left the state and began our lives anew and it took a long time to feel like we had made the right decision... in fact it wasn't until sometime in 88 that I ran into a TWI believer and got invited to twig that I realized I would never go back... That gut feeling when something is dangerous that you get sometimes when know something is wrong but not what exactly. Well for me it wasn't until I came on here that I knew why I got that feeling. Now I know.

It's been longer for Montana, so they must REALLY be due! :lol: I love the counterinductive reasoning people attribute to these things. They even speak of a "law of averages," as if there were such a thing. Hurricanes happen when certain climactic factors are right. You're no more "due" than you were last year, and will be no less "due" next year. George

Yes, the lawsuit is certainly a possibility. I can hope that they'd choose to win the fight, but it is up to them to figure out how to respond to TWI if a lawsuit happens again. (grammar)

Hi Tzaia, It seems pretty clear to me that the ones who tell you this concerning your husband most likely intend it as an insult to you both concerning how your family runs. It sounds like you aren't refering to life in Wayworld, but as things are for you now. And even outside of TWI insults, put downs, and ignorantly judging folks like you and your hubby seem to be not an unknown occurance. But personally, I don't see how they feel they have the right to give the two of you such an unsavory commentary.

And how long before TWI decides to sue them for stealing the name?

Oh, in hindsight, it's not only believable, it's OBVIOUS. vpw HIMSELF didn't really respect JE Stiles until Stiles was rude to his own wife and "put her in her place." vpw enforced his world-view and indoctrinated the Corps and the other insiders (staffers, etc). As he planned, his views-including his carnal, unChristian, devilish ones- became widely embraced.

Oh, if I had a nickel for every time someone said that to me/hubby throughout the 90's... !!! Leadership LOVED to say that whenever they couldn't get the husband to do what they wanted, ESPECIALLY if the husband was allowing the wife to speak out or if he was deferring to her expertise or wisdom. Just like they would tell the wife she was being spiritually rebellious if she disagreed with her husband or the leadership over anything. Their other favorite phrase was to tell me that I needed to stop trying to wear the pants in the family. I think the first time I was told that was in 1987, about a month into in-rez training, and the last time I was told that was a few days before I was booted from twi in 2000. The funny thing is, usually the leadership agreed with whatever it was that I was doing, they just hated the fact that I was the one doing it and not my husband. That's when he would get the "grow a pair" speech, and I would get the "wearing the pants" speech. Unbelievable.

Seems to me that he'd need to grow a pair if he could get bullied to do something on the phone. Funny how they wouldn't notice that irony. (Please to note: I am not saying he would succumb to their persuasion or not. Not implying anything one way or the other on that)

Oh man! Squirrels are rodents! You might as well eat a rat. Squirrels are "tree rats".

that's the way I done sees it. mumble grumble mumble grumble . . .so on and so forth

I used to work in a place where I was routinely thrown around. :) By 200-300 lb men!! I had to restrain them more than once with applied non-violence. That is the rule. . . applied non-violence. Sometimes it worked. . . . . sometimes I booked and sometimes took a few punches! I was no match size and strength wise. Yet, I loved that job. These men could not help themselves. . . had anger issues and the cognitive ability of a three year old. One guy broke someone's neck. We were partially state funded. Respected their rights and tried to treat them with dignity. . . it is a fine line when you are giving the most basic care. Sometimes it is about keeping people, clean, dry, fed, and having a place to lay their heads at night. Who would care for them if there was not gov't money? Their own families could not keep them. . . state hospitals closed. . . and they would be dead if not for these funded homes. We agree then that those who cannot help themselves are a given? How do you judge those who will not help themselves? What is the criteria? Does past mental abuse and trauma count or is it just able bodied that makes one capable? What about anger issues in those adolescents? Does that come from willfulness or something deeper? Is it evident to the untrained eye and can we be the ones to make these snap judgments? Should we leave it to the trained professionals and in place systems to judge? Can we work within those systems to better them? Helping those who maybe really can't help themselves. . . not everything is so black and white. ". . . . . but I do not have any interest in helping those who will not help themselves. And that's Biblical." Is that really a biblical sentiment? Let us hope God's compassion goes beyond that . . . . because we didn't save ourselves. . .1 Thess 5:14 And we exhort you, brethren, admonish the disorderly, encourage the fainthearted, support the weak, be longsuffering toward all. Take Care. . . :)

What version of the Bible is that? Romans 13:1,2 etc refers to being subject to the higher powers in the church (who have not so far in the 21st century been worthy of it IMO) Most of us pay taxes whether we want to or not. Paying taxes that are used to supposed social welfare programs takes all the choice out of charity. My one brush with the system was when I was a receptionist for a year at a former orphanage which was then billed as a "residential treatment facility for troubled adolescent females." I have absolutely no sympathy for these kids. They did as they pleased - stole, beat the crap out of each other and the counselors, ran away, turned tricks whenever they could. And there was no discipline in place, for they were poor innocent children according to the all-knowing State, and under no circumstances should they be taught right from wrong or even accountability. "IT'S NOT MY FAULT" was their battle cry. They were schooled on grounds, got an allowance, and pretty much lounged around the rest of the time, when they weren't threatening murder and mayhem. One of the pitiful little darlings decided to commit suicide by setting her room on fire, changed her mind, and wandered off to play. Three people who crawled into her room to rescue her suffered smoke inhalation, while she was out enjoying volleyball with her friends. Another little lady threw a plugged in radio into the shower where a girl was bathing whom she didn't care for. The problem, as I see it, with this "charity" was that there was no godliness in it, no accountability, no real caring. Most of the counselors were just babysitters in bedlam. I think it would be much better if such charities were privately run. Like George Mueller. These chicks were turned loose on society with no skills, no home, no clue how to take care of themselves. The State should have just taken all the money it poured into that place and had a nice bonfire with it. WG

Yeah, like..... Even though I have encouraged my wife to muff dive I am sending the ministry into a homo purge. Not a quote of LCM on my part, but isn't that what he did?

Thoughts of your wife, Kevin, will keep you all in prayers. My maternal grandmother had breast cancer and my mother has breast issues that keep her cautious so I, of course, pay very close attention to my own health in that regard and I'm thankful for the ability to make informed decisions when needed. My daughter had most of her cervix removed 2 years ago (she was only 25) and of course that now requires extremely close monitoring of cancerous cells again as well as her daughter's attention for the rest of her life, too. If my daughter hadn't kept up with her annual Gyn exams.......... I get on a soap box and yell kinda loud at men, specifically, who don't tend to their health, won't go to doctors for physicals, won't listen when their body is saying something because of "ah, it's fine, nothing is going to happen to me" Bullshi+ We do, indeed, have to consider both sides of our genetic make up and value ourselves enough to not just "believe" and/or not just assume.

But imagine the growth in his swiss bank account!!!! Oh, his wife would be CFO and fire him on day 2. Then she'd promote her "special assistant." Day 3, she would explain that the business hadn't shrunk, Home Depot had just become "more exclusive." JT

I apologize if I made no sense. It is hard to explain thoughts in my head! But I will try and elaborate a little. I just hate to type long winded posts... Bore everyone to death! lol. To start, I think it is important that when we speak of love, we can be speaking of a myriad of things. But when we speak of God's love we speak of something a little more specific. In 1 John 4 we read that God is love. But it goes further, it says, 'He that does not love, knows not God.', and it answers why that is, because God is love. To know God is to be capable of love. Why? Here is where the Hebrew word for love is most revealing to me, the word AHB. The word in its most simplest meaning means 'to reveal the Father'. Now, there are other love's, such as the emotion love, the sexual love, and so on and so forth. But when we speak of God's love, we are not speaking of emotions. We are not speaking of thoughts. We are speaking of God himself and revealing His being, His ways, His care, His truth, His love. Thus back to 1 John, it is impossible to love (reveal the Father[God]) without first knowing Him. Those who honestly know only know Him in part and therefore can only reveal in part. Christ came to reveal God, the prophets revealed God, many throughout history have revealed God. They do so by imitating Him. Ephesians 5:1 'Be ye imitators of God...'. But since no one knows all, our glimpse of who God is, and His love, is limited. But I much rather like the KJV translation of agape as 'charity' because it describes God's nature of one who gives and cares, more so than our English word love which usually is just an emotional term which doesn't clearly fit the definition of agape in 1 Cor 13. ... tbc

I think "feigned" would more accurately describe it.

Again--missing my point. I truly understand why. I could once show you scholarship for The Myth of the 6 Million. I bet you, that at one time, if not believed it-----you seriously considered it. We ALL did.Perhaps we were PROGRAMMED to question the established history for less than NOBLE terms. Possibly, just possibly, I looked at this idea while looking at the evidence presented to me. That may in SOME SMALL way allow me to see things without as much previous predjudice. It is a KIND piece of advice given with guileless motives. Discarded with so much as consideration. That tells me something. Revising history, or believing those that do, and drawing definitive conclusions based on a reworking of the same evidence, is quite a feat. You HAVE to ask yourself what draws you to the ANTI-established ideas. Were we trained to be ANTI-establishment? :) Are you predisposed to easily accept these ideas? It is not a dig or an insult. These are not MAINSTREAM theories. My question of why Polycarp would call him "The first born son of Satan" is VALID. My point that Luke would have DESPISED the doctrine of Marcion and others is VALID. Based on the theology. But, to believe any of your THEORY you have to discard affirmations of the Apostolic Fathers as too bias for real consideration. You have to give nothing written the benefit of the doubt, and draw conclusions. I am saying that not only is the internal evidence questioned, so is the external. To far-fetched when you add in the theology which is VALID. How can this POSSIBLY be offensive or incredible to you for even consideration? UNLESS--you have discarded something so wonderful and so precious on the idea the bible was not written by EXACTLY who it says or teaches us it is. Previously believing at least the idea was possible. That by any stretch of the imagination, gives you a rather LARGE stake in the outcome. I am shocked that the "Mystery Religions" have not entered the discussion. When I said this was reminiscent---I meant it. To consider what I said would have leant you much more credibility in my eyes. What would it have cost you, pride? You are willing to believe revisionist history on slim evidence, but someone who shared a very similar and SHAPING cult experience, because she still believes in God, has questionable motives? I believe in God and it holds me accountable to love you. To care about complete strangers. Our SHARED experience only serves to make that easier. Just a thought. Please remember--there is NO animosity in me toward you--no condescenion. Is it even possible that these are issues that must be CONSIDERED? Being able to discuss them with you may be a clue as to my having asked the same questions of myself. Have you ever really heard the gospel--the one everyone else hears---spoken from a voice of love. It is reasonable ?

There, showered, changed and not rushed. Here is what I am trying to say. Revisionist historians provide a valuable service. I admire anyone who will take on this task, with objectivity. When new evidence comes to light, evaluation is crucial. History is crucial IMHO. Having said that, perspective and agenda HAVE to be looked at. They HAVE to. My perspective is different than yours. We are going to draw different conclusions from the same evidence if we allow our predisposed ideas to enter into the process. Revising history objectivley is almost impossible to do, if you have a BIG dog in the race. So, when I say to you---look at the big picture, including doctrine and evaluate, this is what I am saying. Perhaps they were more than ------like warring political factions. There may be things that don't fit in Marcions theology--with the rest of the bible. These guys used OT. Marcion diminished its importance. yada yada. Perhaps. there is something there you missed. AND, if you came out of a gnostic cult who exerted influence over you in matters of faith. . . . . . . hmmm it REALLY is something to honestly re-think. You were able to discard the entire matter of God on some thin evidence that a heretic was copied by Luke. Fine, but Luke would have reviled him. Because of theology. As far as the epistles go, it is telling to me, that you are not remotely giving the document the benefit of the doubt. Meaning, it says I Paul, and you are saying, in essence, I whoever but Paul. That is why I mentioned the wisecrack about Clement in the cave. You give the document the benefit of the doubt . You don't show your disdain for one side over the other. Not, if you want to be credible. It told me something. Now, couple that with what we were involved in. Step back and look at what we were taught to believe. Add in a healthy dose of psuedo mind control, and consider the task. That is all I am trying to say to you. Read, agree, and enjoy Knox et al---------- But, honestly, given our history, consider why you do. Take Care

Said it better in less words=below

Let me just add this on--One of the reasons why I give little serious thought to the idea that Luke would have copied Marcion, is that Luke would have reviled him. Polycarp called him the "first born son of satan". He bought his way into the church at Rome--and soon after they booted him and gave him his money back. They were hurting after that, but it was better to be rid of him. They despised his teachings which were contrary to the beliefs and practices of the church. The only good to come out of his churches was celibacy. His churches didn't last. He reminds me of the Way--teach one thing-live another. Geisha Anything else you wanna talk about?:) By the way, historians could have saved themselves a bunch of trouble--they could have come to this thread---learned the life expectancy of the average man in the 1st century and threw out the whole thing. I wonder why they didn't consider this?

Hi Lindyhopper, I agree that it is a skeletal argument. I also understand why the noncanonical books were disputed. The criterea needed to meet, so as to find them reliable. You might be interested to know, or perhaps you do, that part of the reason was historical accuracy. OH MY!!! The men who chose the cannon were men who considered the facts. Much like today, there were standards by which biblical books were picked. These men disagreed. Which is why we have books considered apocrypha or false in other bibles. Do you honestly think that those books, declared to be innacurate, have just been left unstudied for all this time? I said it was a bare bones argument. I said that it was a piece of evidence---not the entire thing. Probabilities! Do you build a case with one piece of evidence? I didn't get into the argument of the canon. Not yet--but all may not be as it appears from a cursory reading of the differing councils. Probabilities and context with a stab at objectivity can often give one a logical conclusion. If you are not willing to consider an argument, but set out to refute on your presupposed ideas--no honest evaluation is likely. Read Gant. I'll be back.:) Take Care, Geisha Bramble, I am interested in what it was about wicca that drew you. I am not preaching at you, just wondering what kind of Christianity you were exposed to other than TWI? It might surprize you to hear that I can see, after the Way, what might have pulled you toward Wicca/neopaganism. It had to seem like a more gentle and less judgemental faith. I would not tell you that you are wrong either. I also understand the shrug. I would just like people to consider the God of the bible on a more accurate portrayal of His qualities of kindness and love. Of His love for His creation. After all, we claim He made the earth and all that is within it. Worth a look, don't you think? A gentle, calm, nonjudgemental look? Perhaps hearing what He is really like, might ring somewhat true to your inner-self. You did say you missed the whole personal relationship thing. What you have been exposed to here on this very thread is enough to get you to RUN not walk to the nearest exit. There are some great things about God, that I bet we might of missed in TWI. Just a thought.

Wow, I even went to the storage shed today and dug out all my notebooks. But you are right, if you don't want to know, then nothing I say will convince you. I am more than willing to engage in civil conversation. Why on earth would I judge you for your unbelief? Is there a direct sign leading to God. Step this way? NOPE. But then, if God is ALL he says He is--His presence might just overpower our free will. Love has to be given freely. He woos He doesn't compell. I didn't tell you anything untrue. If I sounded condescending it was my horrid mistake, I sincerely apologize. Let me say that I would not engage in doctrinal conversation for sport. I really believe what I say. I know why I believe it. I am ready to defend why I believe it. That should offend no one. George, why would I take the time to discuss these matters with those here I don't respect? Contrary to what you might think--Christians have a life. I have two jobs--two kids--a husband--a home--a church--and I work on behalf of persecuted Christians. I see something in the posts here. I see bright thinking people. Christianity is reasoned thinking. It appeals to history. The data is so accesible. Jesus is a factual historic figure. Eyewitness accounts are relied upon everyday as factual. There are cognitive, informational facts, the same of which we use in legal and historical decisions today. We make important choices everyday on less facts than you have to support the reliability of the bible and its claims. The NT is the most reliable ancient document we have. The number of copies--the translations--the documents of the early church fathers. Extra biblical writings. The history of the OT is the most comprehensive ancient history we have. It is amazing. But, if you don't want to know--it will be of little interest to you. I went to the British Museum, the Library in London, and the Ashmoleum and looked at what I could. I wanted to know. Lindyhopper, Yes, there are MUCH better Christians than I who everyday defend what they believe. It is called Apologetics and there are very bright people who are able to give comprehensive answers to the questions of why? If your interested you should look into it. You might be pleasantly surprized by the academics of it all. Christianity is not only factual it is an objective faith. It has an object--Jesus Christ. There is amazing work done in the defense of the resurrection. It has been awhile, I think one book is called "Who moved the stone" or something similar. I had the breakdown of all the translations of the NT and their comparisons to other ancient lit we have. I even got ancient history we rely on today as factual and compared it to the reliability of the OT. I was going to show you why I believe it to be factual. I have a great quote from a distinguished archaeologist about the OT history. I have quotes from The Cambridge Ancient History. I started putting together my case for you on why I believe. However, I sense little interest in a really deep discussion and I will not foist my beliefs on anyone. Defend them--YES--hit you over the head--NO. I have to tell you this as well, nobody here has upset me. I lurked before I posted. I think you are all bright and articulate people. Oakspear--glad to hear you shower--it was keeping me up at night.

Word Wolf--That. . . was. . . an. . . AWESOME read!! Thank-you for that effort. Astute very astute!

Hi Abigail, The first part of your question is a definite yes. I have and do discuss issues of faith with people of differing faith. And to a degree-but not in perhaps the way you might think--it does influence my faith in Jesus. Did you know that no other faith but Christianity teaches salvation by grace? This is amazing to me. Some other religions teach a need for salvation--but by works. I recently spent some time with a Buddhist. We had a great discussion, and I learned a great deal. It didn't change my heart or my faith, it only served to affirm it. I have examined most faiths at one time or another. Which is PART of the reason I am a Christian. Since I think that most of the worlds faith's have less in common than more--it would be hard for another religion to cause me to grow in my own faith. I do love to hear what people believe and why. How commited they are and how able or willing they are to defend their beliefs.

Hi Oakspear, In what way does the bible conform to God's reality? How do you know hat this "reality" is? By your experience, or by the bible? If by your experience, or five senses, then how are they superior to anyone else's? If the bible, then that is circular reasoning. I hope that you will bear with me. I went to school for history. That is my degree and for a time my field. I didn't go to a Christian or bible school. Just a few secular, well respected Universities. I only tell you this to illustrate a point. I wrote a paper once, and at the time it was all consuming and rather important to me. I was stuck on a question about the Apostle Paul. I called a Professor who couldn't help me--but did give me the name and phone number of one of the most respected and published authorities on the life of Paul. Being blonde, bold, and brassy I called him. Do you know what he cited as a reference for me? The Book of Acts. I in turn, used this reference after working it myself. I was never hauled into the Deans office and quizzed on my bizarre theory that the bible is an historical reference. I was able to defend that paper successfully. I tell you this to emphasize the importance of the bible as an historical document. I am sure you know that the historical Jesus is not often disputed with any real credibility. That being said--your question wasn't about historical fact: it was how I know the bible conforms to God's reality. Very simple. It declares it. Exodus 20:2. Anticipating your next question--Galatians 1: 8 and 9 Now, given that the bible is a credible historical document---Jesus is a credible historical figure whom we are still discussing some 2000 years later. Given that Jesus still causes such an emotional and often vitriolic response--pretty amazing for some old, crucified, dead, Jew, wouldn't you even consider the possibility that the bible is a book about the reality of God and His relationship with man? That is what it declares itself to be. It declares that it has all things pertaining to life and Godliness. It declares He is evident in creation--a whole big discussion. It declares His existence. There is nothing circular in that reasoning. Most historical evidence is written. Magna Carta--Declaration of Independence. . . . . . . .

The letter of Assumptions--by St. John the divine of Indiana This is what happens when people isolate themselves from the Christian community at large. No accountibility. John, get out there and meet some of the Christian youth today. If you can catch them off the missions field or in-between building houses for low income people. That is if you can catch them in-between ministering to the sick==or raising money for persecuted Brethren. Go to a reputable Bible College and speak with any freshmen. Bet he/she could give you a run for your money. We were never better, or smarter, or more "Spiritual" than anyone. We were duped. Stealing Dale Carnegie, EW Bulliger, and EG Leonard does not a biblical "research" ministry make. Hasn't this all caused enough pain and suffering? Quit trying to lead people astray---What's the matter? TWI lite run out of personal prophecy? Go find some widows and orphans to pick on.

HA! And then maybe you can have a judge rule that your right to believe is fine---as long as you don't act on those beliefs by raping and abusing other men's wives. Just cause your the MOG don't cha know! --if it wasn't true it would be comical. What were those allegations again? What did the Way settle out of court on? Oh yeah, I remember. When was it any "Leadership" just sat and read the bible--WITHOUT expounding? From what I remember you couldn't get them to shut-up. Our turn now and that just gets under their skin-doesn't it? Ahhh Freedom of Speech--Gotta love it.

We have a judge and he DOES make such a distinction. If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine CONFORMING TO GODLINESS, he is CONCEITED and UNDERSTANDS NOTHING; but he has a MORBID interest in controversial questions and DISPUTES ABOUT WORDS, out of which ARISE ENVY, STRIFE, ABUSIVE language, EVIL SUSPICIONS, and constant FRICTION between men of DEPRAVED mind and DEPRIVED of the TRUTH. 1Tim 6 3-5 Conforming to Godliness:does NOT include sexual abuse-drinking(Drambuie anyone?), smoking(got the beanbag ashtray and Kool shorties?), abortion, abusive language, foul language, and on we go. . . . . . Concieted: Man of God for our day and time(Choke) Understands nothing: Those collaterals come to mind---- not to mention JCING Morbid: Advanced Class need I say more? Disputes about Words: I am now laughing--throughly/thoroughly-My God My God why hast though forsaken me-I could go on. . . . Envy/Strife/Abusive language--Ever hear a Sunday Night Service Evil Suspicions: Seed boys and a devil spirit under every rock or in most questioning believers Friction-Depraved--LOL Behavior does separate one from scriptural truth.(Actual Scriptural truth, not the free-love doctrine of VP the Ohio Huckster) WD -- Your arguments while verbose are ridiculous. Men like VP et al do not accept sound healthy teaching. They advocate a different doctrine and they reject doctrine conforming to Godliness Teaching not based on scripture will always result in a life that is UNHOLY and is marked by sin. These men usually have known the truth and walked away. They are predators. They can fill their bathtubs full, but cannot walk on water. VP will have his day in court. I don't want to be standing next to him shoring up his "Ministry" on that day. I think I will just stay on my knees before a HOLY God.

Sounds reasonable, except when you consider the "Word" or "Commandments of God" taught by VP. Then the whole premise is flawed. As many times as we heard--It's the word-the word and nothing but the word. We were not taught the word. We were taught a religion. The religion of VP. A very legalistic religion in fact--hmmm kinda like the Pharisees. The true word is pure-Ps 12:6 19:7 and actually does condemn adultery and abuse, both spiritual and sexual. Do I ACTUALLY have to quote scripture on this one? We never had the truth in the first place. So, VP et als behavoir fits like a hand in a glove with what he actually taught us. Let's see some of the gems carved out for us. True Godly sorrow and repentence-eh whatever-no longer have a sin problem--administration of grace dont-cha-know. Abortion-Hey a-okay! The ABSENT Christ???? MOG?? I thought the Pope was bad. The Gospels were OT????????? For our learning--yeah we may have missed a few things in there. Wasn't John 10:10 the whole premise? Believing=Recieving Works for saint and sinner alike?? Well, that sure takes God out of the equation. The suggestion of the MOG is tantamount to a command--Please don't quote David to me-- Christians should be prosperous? Who says, Jesus didn't even have a place to lay his head? Romans 13 - Taking old Billy out behind the woodshed. John 1:1--at least the Jehova Witnesses got it. The company we kept! The fear in the heart of that mother-- 4 crucified-the 6 denials I forget how many temptations he added?. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . What a crock! This doesn't include the more advanced teachings for the uber-spiritual. Abusing the women of the kingdom to heal them--yep that's a gem. Real pure-peaceable and easy to be entreated. No word in the Way to make void. What that man and his minions did is sadder than I can even express. The condemnation heaped on his head is frightening Rev 22: 18 & 19 Oh, I forgot we don't fear the Lord. I bet he does now. Shame he ruined the bible for so many. If you have not picked it up in awhile--it is a Great read, less the way doctrine-it makes some sense.

I heard a rumor that David repented and had some Godly sorrow for His sins. I missed TWI "LEADERSHIPs" sorrowful heart for the pain they caused. Even Jimmy Swaggart had the good manners to cry crocidile tears.

"it is my opinion that, the conduct of these hypocritical "whited sepulchres" indeed nullifies their purported "beliefs" as being "biblically accurate"...........it is also my opinion that, despite their interpretation of what is "scriptural truth", any such "scriptural truth" they may have spoken or taught is indeed negated (as spoken or taught by them) by their blatantly "unscriptural" conduct!" DWBH Yes, God gave His HOLY-JUST-PARADOXICAL-PEACEFUL-KIND, and WORTHY-TRUTH- meant for the meek and humble to a bunch of ABUSIVE-PLAGARIZING-ADULTEROUS-DEVIL SPIRIT OBSESSED-HUCKSTERS. The rest of Christendom which (missed the snow on the gas pumps) was of course kept in the dark. Those idiots! Men and women martyred were "misguided" as they were put to death for their faith. They should have subscribed to the Sunday Night Service. Hmmm 2 things God HATES--Powerful language from a HOLY God. 1. To be a peddler of HIS word.2Cor2:17 2. To cause one of His little ones to stumble Mt 8:16--I think in IMHO rape and sexual abuse may cause one to stumble-just a guess. Peddle-Dishonest men seeking personal profit and prestige at the expense of Gospel truth and peoples souls. John MacArthur This goes for those ridiculous "Off Shoots" Who still hold the "Truth" VP et al taught them. Deep breath and here we go----Keep denying who Jesus said He was and is and look what it gets us. However, we were always in good company. The Moonies, the Mormons, the Jehova Witnesses, and the little known Christadelphians. All because VP couldn't hold up under accountability to a church. Yeah--their behavoir nullifies every last word they speak. IMHO

Hi Again, Politically correct? Expedient? Or gentle, loving and kind. There is a big difference. It is expedient to say there is nothing wrong with homosexuality--everyone has a right--I don't care what people do in their own bedrooms. It is politically correct to support "Gay Rights" or join Rosies Cruise and march on pride day. It is gentle, loving and kind to reach out to those who are lost--anyone who is lost. I remember when I realised that God is HOLY and JUST! Post Way. It scared the H out of me--quite literally. But, not knowing Jesus from Adam, I set out to save myself with acts and words of righteousness. I was going to save everyone else as well. Turns out they were self-righteous works and words. I ran around telling people what God says is right and wrong. Nothing wrong with that--if I had done it in love, motivated by God's AMAZING graciousness. I was motivated by fear and frustration that people didn't see a Holy and frankly SCARY God. He loves everyone right? I heard that alot. How can he condemn when He loves. He is Holy (A bad word in TWI) He cannot abide sin--he cannot tempt with evil and none of us--Not a one can stand before Him on our own merit. Each one of us needs a Saviour. Someone who is perfect and accepted on His merits--to stand in our place. We have been freely offered such an awesome gift. That is love. If you liken God to a HUGE-POWERFUL - Storm--something you cannot stand-up in or control--You can liken Jesus to the sweet dry and tender shelter provided in that storm. A place to be loved and accepted. If you see others out in the storm staggering -- unable to find shelter---do you yell out their sin to them in hopes they will change and make their own little shelter? Or do you reach out and say look--there is a way to be safe and loved. Here it is--join us. When we enter such a place we find the most amazing love and peace. We are drawn to such an unspeakably kind, merciful and loving presence. When we see that love --our hearts yearn to love Him back and to obey His words. That is how we change. Being accepted and loved. We love Him because He first loved us. God never defends His existence. He declares it. He doesn't beg us for our obedience-He expects it. He doesn't call us to condemn--He calls us to love. There is no condemnation of Christians here. Not any that I have seen. If you want to see what a persecuted Christian looks like--Go to the VOM (Voice of the Martyrs) website. While you are there--pick up a pen and paper and write a prisoner in chains for his or her faith. Otherwise--I would just suck up the few little comments here or there. We were all in a very destuctive and nasty cult--many still stagger in the storm. It is a different journey for each here. Have a little confidence that God is able. Another two cents please!

I am laughing because I remember the great change hunts!!Check the couches--check the laundry! Did you check ALL the pockets??LOL I became a master dumpster diver. Once my daughter grabbed an apple at the store-took a huge bite and I worried!!- But, we had exactly 18 cents to cover her toddler purchase. A close one!! When I think now of all the houses we had to share and the basics we went without I shudder. Good life lesson I guess. Think I have it figured out now though, which is why I give where I want when I can!!

Hi, You can reach Tom at bauer777@comcast.net or tbauer777@gmail.com He lives in Massachusetts and I am sure he would love to hear from you.