Twinky

BUMP on this thread for the benefit of others who have come to the Cafe recently, and as it seems relevant to another resurrected thread currently on display. Did VPW lose his eye to a fish hook? Or to cancer? Or one to a fish hook and one to cancer? Whatever...the man lost an eye and the man is dead from cancer. And nobody at TWI was honest enough about any of it. It's GSC telling the other side of the story that has exposed the reason for his death. I don't care why he died. I do care that TWI still isn't honest in its dealings with its people.

And while you certainly could build a theology about unbelievers being "thorns," by no means should you build a theology that says people who don't agree with you are unworthy of the love of God, or consigned to the fires of hell or to become greasespots by midnight, or that such people are otherwise to be badly treated.

I don't remember this from PFAL. What I remember is that VPW said that people said that the thorn in the flesh was some issue they themselves were grappling with. Like weak eyes or a feeble body. But (he said) it was people - people who went round straight after Paul had taught freedom in Christ, and those people, "thorns", were trying to put the new converts straight back under the law. The implication from that would be that VPW was teaching "freedom" and others - mainstream churches? deprogrammers? - went along straight afterwards to try to uproot freedom truths. Ironic, really, as it was exactly the opposite that was happening - he was teaching bondage disguised as freedom, and others were trying to uproot his pernicious teachings. "Thorns" - VPW taught - were definitely people. He referred to Num 33:55. Here are some scriptures referring to people as thorns: Hey, if you wanted to, you could build the most amazing theology about "thorns" really meaning "unbelievers." Check out any Bible search engine. But I'm not at all sure that you can build a theology about "thorns" being illnesses, addictions or other physical ailments.

One thing to be sure of... However one chooses to avail oneself of healing - prayer, medications, surgery, homoepathic remedies - it's not up to anyone else to condemn or judge that person for not believing enough. And what works for one person won't necessarily work for another.

Hello mchud. Don't know who these people are, but thought you'd gone AWOL. Seems to have been a long time since you've been at the Cafe...?

I don't think that would work here. A few people have pools, but not too many. I did have a spa pool in a property I lived in, in another country. We never got the balance right. One time, even, the spa had mosquito larvae swimming happily in it. (Could have been worse - could have been snakes.) Still, we had fun in the pool.

Good advice, mstar. It surely is a hard market out there with lots of people selling volkswagens. Yep, I surely can offer a RR service. I really appreciate all the ideas people have suggested. I'm getting quite excited by the prospects ahead of me...that's when I'm not feeling depressed about how little there seems to be around and about. My city council is offering a couple of short courses - one is for 2 hours (free) on very basics of business start-up (probably: register your business for tax purposes, keep accounts and pay your taxes!). They also offer another of 3 days duration for which there is a fee (not a huge one) that goes into more specifics. I am booked onto the shorter one which seems to be offered every 2-3 months but one is taking place this coming Wednesday. Not sure how often the longer one comes around.

In case it's not clear to people like Johniam, this thread is NOT about healing. What you said is totally irrelevant to this thread. This thread IS about the correct use of GRAMMAR and the correct UNDERSTANDING of the English language. To heal gaps in understanding. Anyone can stay in their errors if they want to. Their business. Their pride. I'm just saying: that if one understands correctly, one will get more meaning out of ... anything one reads, not just a Bible. My vocabulary is great. But you know what? I still look up words I don't know in a dictionary. That way, my understanding increases. I understand the nuances. Same with grammar. When one understands the pluperfect tense, maybe then there is also scope for a discussion about subjunctives. Subjunctives are very delicately nuanced. There is quite a lot of theology out there that is based on misunderstanding subjunctives. But let's start with the easy stuff.

“By whose stripes you were (past tense) healed…” “By whose stripes you are (present tense) healed…” How many times have I heard that? And every time, inside I cringe and think badly of that person: “Go and learn English before you set yourself up as a teacher! If you don’t understand the obvious, do you really understand the obscure?” If you must, these sentences should read: “By whose stripes you were healed (past tense)…” and “By whose stripes you are healed…” – which is something different again. I understand the verb in the Greek may be in a tense which suggests something that happened in the past with continuing effects in the present, and we don’t have an exact equivalent in English. I don’t want to digress into ancient Greek grammar. Friends, the “were” part is NOT the verb, as such. The full verb in this tense is “were healed.” It’s compound. I know where this erroneous understanding comes from. PFAL has Wierwille pontificating and splitting up verbs into parts without recognising that in English sometimes one of the various tenses is formed of more than one word. I don’t Wierwille was expert in either Greek or Hebrew, though he might have had a passing knowledge of both. “So what?” you might say. Let’s choose a simple verb: to walk. We probably all know that “I walk” is not the same in meaning as “I am walking.” Would you split the latter into: “I am (present tense) walking…”? Actually “I am” is from the verb “to be” which is nowadays only used , in this manner, in dialectical forms of English. “I am” has a whole lot of other connotations relating to permanence (I am black, white; I am tall, small; I am male, female; I am a doctor, a nurse, a journalist…) but not a temporary condition of strolling along a road! Likewise, “I walked” is not the same as “I was walking” or “I have walked” or “I had walked” or “I did walk.” Likewise, “I will walk” is not the same as “I shall walk” nor is either the same as “I will/shall be walking” or “I will/shall have walked.” I’m not setting myself up as an English grammar teacher, though my English, whether written or spoken, is excellent and I have taught English to other people. I would just like people to think a little more deeply about what they read, and what they repeat, parrot-fashion – and how much richer, much much richer, their understanding would be if basics of English language were understood. English grammar can be studied in great depth. I’m not advocating you take a degree in it. I’m suggesting just enough study to get more out of what you already know – to understand the subtleties of written English. You probably do understand the differences in the tenses even though you can’t quite put your finger on what the differences are or what they mean, and it’s not quite so important in spoken English because there are usually non-verbal clues to a fuller understanding. Here’s a very simple item I located on the net; you may find other items. My link Okay, I’m getting off this soap box for the time being…

This is how judgment should be carried out: And there are loads of other references in the OT about how judgment is to be exercised, like this: As regards the partiality of TWI, this is relevant: This warning about "respect of persons" (= paying attention to a person's status) is widespread through both OT and NT. And how many of Jesus's parable or actions illustrated that? As well as the culture of "the ministry not being blamed" – TWI suffered from respecting persons and their perceived usefulness or wealth or contacts (their "gift"). If you had what TWI wanted, they accepted your "gift." If you didn't have what they wanted, you and justice for you was a disposable commodity. Sorry, TWI … no avoiding it. No way did you deal with things impartially. You even abused "grace" to avoid dealing with things appropriately. You wrested "mercy" as "God's withholding of merited punishment" (or whatever) to further your agenda - not to demonstrate God's grace.

You're right, BA; it picks up in Mt 5:25 and Luke 12:58 (a different event). There is some expansion of the thought in the rest of Mt 5 in (say) 39-44. And of course there is 1Cor 6. There are other references elsewhere about not seeking revenge, not getting upset where people wrong you or abuse you. I think the essence is not taking offence unnecessarily; being forgiving or at least tolerant; and not exacerbating wrongs, whether intentional wrongs or otherwise. We all have our tolerance limits but many things can be resolved by taking a softly-softly approach, if necessary with a neutral third party's assistance. That's the kind of approach mentioned in Mt 18:15-17. Bear in mind, of course, that the "church" of that time was also the "court" - which in our society is now a secular authority. If people are pushed into a position, their attitude necessarily hardens up and negotiated solutions (compromise) become progressively more difficult. Litigation (resorting to law) should be a last resort, not the first resort, for most things. Is there some other way to deal with the present difficulty? Sometimes the more patient approach yields better results, long-term.

Good one, Cara. I would be brilliant at that, actually. Just checked out the Society for Editors and Proofreaders (SfEP) website, which is informative. One more for my basket of services offered! Thanks.

Thanks, Linda, and OperaBuff. Good ideas. I can also think of cleaning ovens (on domestic kitchen stoves) which some people make a living at. Because nobody really likes cleaning the oven. I'm somewhat uncertain as to how to bid for a job, whether one-off or ongoing work (like cleaning or gardening or painting). Do you have any suggestions as to how to price? OperaBuff: yes, tending the borders is looking after the flower borders. One particular client (J & W) has a lovely big garden that has been loved by the couple there for 35 years. J is 88 and W is 94 now; she can still just about kneel to do the borders but he uses a walking frame. They have nice borders with roses, lilies, pretty flowers, round 3 of their lawns. They have a gardener who does "heavy stuff" like dig the vege garden ... but when he failed to do it, I dug over and prepared the seed bed over two visits. He is seen as clumsy ("got big feet") and hamfisted, and not to be trusted with more delicate stuff like the borders (which he has crushed in the past). I got my second client G from this one's referral. G has had two flower borders laid to lawn (by this same big footed gardener!) and the grass was sown before the soil settled and the level is horribly uneven. I am digging those out, removing deep-rooted pernicious weeds and levelling. I am also providing some extra soil to top the borders up to the correct level. J offered me the same rate as her gardener; and G said she would pay whatever J was paying. Both will give me referrals. G has made her living by doing what comes to hand for a long time but she is a pensioner now. She gave me some very good advice this evening.

Soul searcher, I did get a job, lasted two months. They hated me and I hated the job. Still, it was nice to have it over Christmas, made things a bit more relaxed and I felt able to put the heating on in the house. Currently I have had two back to back temp jobs, each for one month; the second finishes at the end of next week I think. It's been so nice having an income and it's my money and I'm not accountable to anyone for it. I have done a bit of chatting with the woman whose borders I tend; she has lived for years on bitty jobs as s/empd Whatever. She's older now (which is why I'm doing the borders) but she really enjoyed her working time. For me I have to raise enough to pay the mortgage each month; feed myself; pay the usual utilities; etc. So pin money it is not. I visited the local cemetery today, as a colleague had suggested grave tending. That's something else to check out. There were stonemasons there erecting a memorial and they don't tend "garden graves" but could be persuaded to give out business cards if I got some printed. Geisha, that's something that never occurred to me and well worth checking out. mstar1, that's just the encouragement I need. I am feeling more positive about this with every passing hour. Broken Arrow, glad this helps you too. All the best in your endeavors. I am sure you and I are not the only ones considering this.

There are many references to agreeing with the other side quickly, which prevents wasted time and effort and can put an end to a dispute before it gets out of control. Perhaps the scripture in 1 Cor 6 is an exhortation to deal with things that can be dealt with quickly - dealt with quickly! Don't litigate at the smallest thing. I have practiced in law and now work as a volunteer doing advice work. And I've often said to clients: they might have a case, but how much is the "head space" worth? Not to mention the time and money. How much is it really worth, the emotional involvement in having a fight with the next door neighbour or the ex-wife about some relatively insignificant matter (one ex-wife thing was when husband spitefully wanted custody of ... the sunbed!) I don't think 1 Cor 6 is a blanket prohibition on never taking legal action where there has been a serious wrong - an abuse, wilfully, by the other party. The "guilty party" (if you like) has abandoned Christian principles and (by TWI definition) has walked out of the hedge of protection (I don't believe that, particularly, just trying to think like TWI might). Abuse is allowed to flourish where it's not checked. Think of the abuses in the RC church, where nobody ever challenged paedophile priests - and the church itself just moved the abusers to new locations, where they were free to abuse. And abusees found themselves effectively gagged. I think we at the Cafe - and all TWIers - owe a debt to P@ul @llen, that he and his wife did take legal action against LCM, TWI in respect of the abuse suffered by his wife.

It can be good for some people to get to work. Take their mind off their problems. But for most people who aren't well, "proper" healing is needed. Most people know when they really are ill and need help. Ignoring the obvious (though a TWI strong point) and burying one's head in the sand simply gets sand in the ears. Ah! That's why people at TWI can't really hear what's going on...ears full of sand And also, working in a reasonable environment certainly does help keep one healthy. Healthy mind. TWI isn't any good at all when it comes to dealing with illness caused by worry and stress - which isn't surprising, since they are prime stressors and motivate through fear as much as anything.

Well now Camping is reported to have "made a mistake" and the date is 21 October. Actually he always said that something is happening in October - after the event of 12 May had taken place. False prophets...be not afraid of them. Be not afraid of laughing stocks, either.

Ham, it's an idea, but could be expensive. My local council has in its Recycle Centre an area where old TVs and computers and such like can be placed (separate from other stuff) and I believe that gets recycled, what can be. Socks, thanks for that - the "hobby" bit is in part why I would like to do gardens (I always build a garden, even if I live in a tiny flat). I like the way you word your final para ("...how difficult it can be for businesses to find maturity + skills + experience. A willingness to learn and the level of maturity to maintain a professional attitude are valuable assets."). My self-confidence took a huge dent during TWI days and prior to that I'd had to work for a man who was demanding, bullying and generally mocking of all his staff. Had to stay there two years and then stayed (in a different office) for another year. I'm somewhat lacking in that department (not that most can tell) and very "eager to please" which might come across as desperate. And three years out of work doesn't help. Self-employment could be just what I need. The more I think about it, the more attractive the idea becomes. There are many people out there with far less ability than I have, and they're not doing too badly. Thanks for suggestions. Keep 'em coming.

Thanks for reminding me - I did do that for a period in my WOW year, for a while. Washing shop windows was well priced. I also wondered about setting up ironing shirts - I know people who simply don't have the time. One of a string of like activities.

Manwich???

Fellow Cafe denizens, as some of you know, I’ve been without a proper job now for some time – in fact, over three years – despite having applied for hundreds of jobs and been interviewed for some of them. So maybe it’s time for me to do something for myself. Maybe I should be a self-employed Wotsit doing Whatever for Whomsoever. The thought is scary and exciting. I'm not sure if Americans are more enterprising or better at looking for "gaps in the market" or whether that's a perception...that might be accurate or not. Or maybe it's just that there are so many more people in the US! And it's a different market over here, with different regulations. But an idea is still an idea. I know some of you have started your own businesses. I work hard, do a great job, get on okay with most people - and as ex-WoW, ex Corps, whatever, can turn my hand to most things. Except using my prof quals is pretty much out of it because I don't have current skills or enough years of experience to set up on my own. I have a few ideas – like gardening or housecleaning or painting or being a virtual Personal Assistant or proof-reading – but I’d appreciate any suggestions as to the Whatever that you think I might be good at. (I note that one Spotter reported some enterprising people started up post-Rapture petcare - but that person probably doesn't have a lot going on right now...LOL) Only proviso: services provided have to be legal and decent! The start-up costs can’t be excessive – like purchasing very expensive equipment – and I will look for night-school classes in some of these to learn better or complementary techniques or skills, once decided. So in summary: 1. What do you think I could turn my hand to? 2. Who might be the target “employer” for any of these services? 3. What attributes would help me be successful? 4. What attributes would count against me? 5. What pitfalls might be encountered - if you tried something in a similar line? Would appreciate your help.

That's really on the ball, DogLover. Enterprising. Hope he didn't promise refunds if the event didn't happen. A fool and his money are soon parted....

It's now just after 1AM local time (00:08 GMT) on 22 January. I'm still here... No earthquakes in the UK. Hey, how's you guys over in the US of A? You still have a few hours to go... Anybody reading this, or have you all gone Camping?

This item even hit the staid Radio 4 news magazine that I listen to in the morning...the presenters do actually have a rather good sense of humour. As for me, I'm going to a farewell party tonight. My friend and her husband are emigrating to Cyprus. Nearly everyone there will be Christian, from the charity that I support and raise sponsorship for. My friend's husband is not, however, a believer. He, and the friend accompanying me, may be in for a surprise when most of the people there emigrate to some other place, without them. ...Or maybe we'll just enjoy a jolly good party and we will leave in the normal manner...on foot, taxi, car, etc.

:biglaugh: :biglaugh: Well done, Paw! Hilarious!! Did you invite them to draw up a chair and enjoy a Java? (edited to avoid inadvertent disclosure of ID of Cafe proprietor)