waysider

I offer my apology. I didn't do a very good job of explaining what I meant when I said man invented time. What I meant ( I'm hoping this explains it) is that man can't grasp the concept of "time/eternity" having no end. Thus, what he has done is to invent a system that will divide out small portions of that endless continuum that make more immediate sense. That explains the concept of minutes, days, seasons, etc. In reality, it is a continuously evolving transition that follows a somewhat predictable sequence that man has isolated and used to give some sort of quantitative value. And so, God can look down at the helix that spirals down around the cone representing "time/eternity" and observe any given moment, whether it be in the next millennium or the last, in an observational but non-participating fashion. This also explains the dilemma with Isaiah's death prediction and reprieve. God could see the points in time that represented the precipitating conditions, the resultant death, and the subsequent changes that resulted in a reprieve all at the same time. Thus,for God to say He saw Isaiah's death represented on that spiral staircase of "time/eternity" would be an observation not an interference. At least I think that's the way I remember him teaching it.

Yeah, I see your point. It was a big hit in Country and Pop at the same time. Did I mention it's sappy? :)

Happy Thanksgiving!!!!

Well, I couldn't find my previous post on this so I'll post the essence of it again. I heard G@yle W!n3g@rner teach this a long time ago. I don't know if it is Biblically accurate but it makes a lot of sense. Foreknowledge Picture an ice cream cone, without the ice cream, in 3-D. Now, turn it upside-down. The ice cream cone represents eternity. Now, picture a line that extends from top to bottom and spirals around like a spiral staircase that has a zillion steps. Any step on that spiral staircase represents a moment in time. (You see, "eternity" is much too large a concept for the human mind to grasp. Therefore, man invented "time" as a means of measuring out portions of eternity in quantities small enough to comprehend.) Now, God is seated at the top of the cone.(the apex) He can look down toward the base of the cone and see any step on the staircase. Thus, He can look backward and forward at any moment in eternity(Which you and I call "Time".) He's not manipulating what happens on those steps, He's just observing like a security camera in a parking lot, at least when He is operating "foreknowledge". And there you have one explanation of Foreknowledge. Right or wrong? You be the judge. .

Hey there Bulwinkl My Dad worked nights as a bartender back in the late '50s. This one used to get a fair amount of play on the jukebox, along with Patsy Cline, Jim Reeves and Hank Sr. I agree, though, it's sappy!!!!

Hi Irish To capture a post, you click on quote/reply in the lower right. Then, you can delete sections that are not relevant to your commentary or insert your own commentary as you see fit. You can bold it, underline it, color it, or whatever else you think will show a separation of your words from the captured post. -------------------------------------------------------------- I "drifted" away in about 1990. (Took "the class" in 1972) Re: The devil. Remember when you were a kid and the devil was represented as a guy with a red cape, horns and a pitchfork? Fast forward to your time in TWI where you learned that he was actually not that guy with a pitchfork, but, rather, a spiritual creature. The reality was still there, but your perception was altered. Now take that one step farther. Perhaps he's not a spiritual creature, but, rather, a metaphoric concept that represents some larger truth. Again, the reality is still there, but your perception has been once again altered. Ditto on the devil spirits and power surrounding this whole subject. You see, it does not nullify the scriptures that pertain to this subject. Instead, it raises them to a new level of awareness. But like I said, this is stuff I thought I had figured out (somewhat) before I got into The Way. I could be completely wrong. But, it seems like I am moving back in this direction in my thinking. Have a happy turkey day----That's an order!!!!!

Deleted.Not the one we're looking for.

Having left TWI many years ago, I no longer think of the "devil" as an entity, per se. I now personally view the devil and his powers as being metaphoric in essence. That doesn't make any of it less real for me. A lot of things we were taught about the devil and devil spirits, I now consider to be highly inaccurate in a Biblical sense. In other words, no, I don't believe in his existence as an individual entity yet I still believe the concept, itself, is valid. Ditto on the question regarding power. The power exists but I don't believe it emanates from the "devil" we have come to know through TWI and mainstream Christianity in general. Funny thing is, I actually feel like I had a pretty good handle on much of this stuff BEFORE I got "in the Word". TWI taught me I had to put God under some kind of spiritual microscope and never step back to get a panoramic view. Here's an example. Before TWI, I was pretty sure God could "talk" to me in non verbal ways such as nature and emotions. Then when I got involved with TWI, it seemed like I had to put Him in a jar like a captive firefly and never marvel at the beauty of it as it flits carefree through the night sky. I don't know if that makes much sense but I wanted to try to answer your question honestly.

For me, at least, the real issue is credibility. If VP had this all wrong, (and I personally think he did) what else did he have wrong? I never saw this used to deliver and heal people. I saw and heard people SAY it was being used that way but never actually witnessed it in "real time". It seemed like it was used to control people and put them in the passenger seat.(or maybe the "rumble seat") Just my 2 cents.

My condolences go out to you and his family, Seth.

I'd like to be Under the sea In an Amazing Sea Monkeys garden In the shade.

Hi Patrick I enjoyed a good deal of your post but find I must disagree with you on the issue of believing. The attitude you carry with you, be it negative or positive, has a very real effect on your physical and mental health. This has been proven in a multitude of controlled studies. Likewise, taking affirmative steps to achieving a goal can bring about positive results. Simply "believing" something into or out of existence, however, is not a realistic or healthy approach to life. Unless your thoughts cause you to act in some outward and tangible fashion, they will have no effect on what comes to pass. You can't literally move a mountain by simply "believing" it will move. You can, however, cause it to move by a conscious effort to employ explosives and excavating equipment to facilitate the result. That conscious effort may require that you retain a positive outlook so as not to be deferred from your goal. Too often, people have used this magic believing idea to try to accomplish that which is best accomplished through a concerted and deliberate action (or accepted as being unrealistic.) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- But back to topic Death is merely one part of the cycle of life just as birth is one part and childhood is one part and adulthood is one part. Unlike childhood, adolescence and adulthood, though, it harbors an aura of uncertainty that can't be explained by those who have experienced it. Thus, blaming" the devil "gives us a tangible and perhaps necessary focal point to reference our thoughts. I could be wrong, That's just my take on it.

Hi Seth I found it fascinating. Kinda makes me wish I could be around at the start of the new age in 2150 to see "what's next?" Not likely, though. Does it make you wonder why there is such a parallel similarity to all these accounts? It does for me. Surely it must go beyond the coincidental observance of lights in the sky. I think there may be a brief, immediate, parallel and basic explanation observed in comparing it to the music of our generation. ie:The same human concepts presented in music of the 1940s or 1950s continue to be explored in the music of today though the musical forms are miles apart. There must be some profound reason for the similarities. I wouldn't even begin to venture a guess what those reasons are. How can I find this site without going through GSC? I would like to show it to someone at work without bringing them to GSC.

Hmmmmmmm Has a "50s" kinda ring to it. Sounds remotely familiar. I'll have to kick it around in my head for a while.

Dooj My first memory is amazingly similar to yours. When I was about 3, I "woke up" at the back screen door and saw my mother hanging clothes on the line. It was like someone flipped a switch and the lights came on. I can still see that moment in my mind like it was this morning. I have memories of all sorts from that point on but nothing before that. I don't know how to explain the sensation that came over me at that moment. It was kinda like when you fall asleep on a bus or park bench and suddenly wake up with total awareness of your surroundings. That's not real close to the sensation but it's the best description I can muster. I remember very minute details of things that have happened to me, not just as a child. I can remember casual conversations I had 40-45 years ago, including things that were said and what people were wearing. It's a bit weird, actually, and sometimes I wonder if the people in those memories have the same recollection of those events. I can still remember my first day at kindergarten(I was only 4) and how, when my mother came to "collect" me, I felt so sad that I had to go home. This is an interesting subject. I think I've heard it discussed before but I can't remember where or when.

Hi,WG I posted once on a teaching that G. W!negarner did that explained predestination. I have no idea whether or not it was academically accurate but it spoke to me in a very loud and clear way. I'll have to see if I can find that post. If not, I'll try to restate it.But for now, here's a brief glimpse. ------------------------------------- Long and short of it is, seeing something and causing something are two distinctly different things. If you look down the street and see a car about to hit a light pole, it's not at all the same as causing the car to hit the light pole.And, having the option of stopping it is out of the question. Re: the cancer thing. I don't buy it. Sure God saw it in his foreknowledge, but cause it? NOPE. can't buy it. God can teach you all kinds of great truths without causing you to suffer in the process.

John, with all due respect. Picture yourself, if you will, being awakened out of a dead sleep at 3 AM, in the middle of Podunk, USA, with almost no money and being informed that you are a total disgrace to God and you must immediately vacate the state you are in if you have any expectation of even remaining inside God's hedge of protection. Failure to do so could not only result in your falling from God's favor, it could result in your death. Would you still have those warm, fuzzy feelings or do you think you would feel like the world is crashing in around you? I saw this happen to my FLO brothers. Two of them lived in the same "house" as me. It almost happened to me as well, later on, but I had a "cute" wife who unwittingly bought me a reprieve. I'm thankful you never saw this stuff but it really did happen.

Good advice. NY? Nice to see you. Nero-----------You sound like a "kid" that any parent should be VERY proud of. (When you start getting old, everybody's a "kid".) They need your love and support right now, not a bunch of doctrinal razzle dazzle, mumbo-jumbo. Just continue to do whatever you can to help them with what needs to happen at the physical level, and deal with the doctrinal, addiction stuff after things settle down. Who knows? Maybe that stuff will resolve itself anyway. Just my 2cents.

Freebie----Freebie----Freebie!!!! Who'll post the next one? How about you, Strange One?

I'm sittin' here with my grandson Cletus(that's his name), Cleophus(he's the ornery one) and Clara Belle(that's short for Helen). When they saw this, the three of them, in unison, exclaimed, "AWESOME!!" For once, I totally agreed with all three of them. Life is one big, exciting adventure.

Hmmmm! "A spirit of Wierwille type BS" I think he may have skipped that one in the Advanced Class.

Okay, again I'm off topic. I remember VP smuggly criticizing denominational Christianity for using "five senses" criteria in determining where to send missionaries. He flat out stated that he just asked God where to send them and God told him. He made a big deal out of it. The guy was either delusional or one dang good con-man.( probably both.) The same hype surrounded ordinations. We were always led to believe that an ordination signified a genuine gift ministry. When someone got ordained, people would speculate on which gift ministry/ies the person had. I think there must have been some who actually did, but that's not really the point, now is it?

Hmmmmm. I'm with you on quite a bit of that, actually. 1. "Believing" is a crock---------check 2. "We must tithe" is a crock----check 3."It's your own fault 'cause you didn't blah, blah, blah" is a crock---------check Bad stuff happens because sometimes bad stuff just happens------check Here's where it gets sticky. I can't even count how many times I've heard the following section of scripture used to show that God does not tempt us.(also translated "try" us) --------------------------------------------- James 1:12-17 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to him that love him. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted neither tempteth he any man.: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. ------------------------------------------------------- Then, of course, you have the stuff about God being light (and no darkness) and "God is love" and the God tests us theory seems a bit thin. But, I could be wrong about what these scriptures mean. Back to topic The guy seems Waaaaaaay too obsessed with elevating Wierwille to a super hero level for me to even want to try to give him a "listen". Just my opinion.

On your mark.Get set.------------------Post!------------------------

Scout Most reputable places are more than happy to offer that service to you regardless of the model. I have no idea what you should expect to pay in terms of a fee. For most places, it's kind of a "foot in the door" opportunity. They get to show you they are competent and develop a business relationship for the future when you need to buy strings and picks and widgets and gizmoes. And, it's a good way to see if they might offer lessons at your level. My nephew is a guitar instructor in the Cleveland area. He actually has a waiting list of people who want to enter at the beginner's level so you may encounter that if the teacher is very good. Good luck to you. I hope you have a rewarding experience.