engine

All the best, T-Bone. Enjoy your life and exploring on this part of your journey.

ROA Honey Wagon crew= KP duty.

Vpw thought of himself as a great general and his love of the Marines is common knowledge and we were Corps. One quote stands out: "The request of a general is tantamount to a command." I heard that several times including the first month of first year in rez. Once vpw said it about himself all the BS Leaders started saying it. That meant that even his suggestions were to be taken seriously. That's why I read The Source by Michner in 1982: (who I can't stand.) The standing up reminds me of the "Ten-HUT!" seen in the WWII movies when a superior officer enters the room to give briefing at a podium. That's Military, and not Scriptural. "The mission ahead will be hazardous," we were told,"but you have been well trained and armed with the 9. Success is yours. You shall stand before Kings and Queens in the end." BS. But Rank was all over TWI. It started with the nametags: Plastic was first, paper inferior. Rev. meant superior rank, corpse was high rank with corpse number playing into it, too. Also who is on what Board, the seniority of who had been around longer, and on and on. I'm surprised we didn't salute at HQ. Yep. We did all but salute. To me It started with vpw's twisted, arrogant, superior view of himself, and trickeled down to the field. I don't believe it had anything to do with standing up in Church when the Minister and Choir come into the Sanctuary kind-of-thing. I'm surprised, now that I think about it, why there wasn't a "Standing Up Code" like there was a "Dress Code." HA! More rules to march by.

When I began to use some newly found critical thinking skills to look at the teaching of TWI and the Bible, things turned topsy-turvy for me. As my unravelling went, I became aware that the indoctrination of TWI had limited my thinking in awful ways but wasn't exactly sure how. The last point and next to the last point above spoke loudly to me. Thx, T-Bone. Seems that VPW's attitude was incorporated into those early corpse real well because of all the close, personal contact they had with him. That episode with DWBH was similar to one I had with a 3rd corpse, KF. It was early summer 1974 and after 2 months of reading the Gospels solo ( I had started on my own in the evenings at 19 years old in my quest for the Truth) I was ready and yearned for fellowship. An old friend came into town and we went to a Twig. I loved it! And best of all, they were teaching from the Bible. I was learning as fast as I could and loved it. But the control mechanisms had already started to be put into place- the first was "Be on time." Sometime later on in July we had a Limb meeting at the Limb home in my city. There were about 30 of us there, and we were all seated in folding chairs that were all lined up. KF walked in and got behind the little podium, and some people stood up but most did not including me. I was really happy to be there and innocent and wide open and KF proceeded to reprove us for 10 minutes for not respecting the word of god that he represented so stand up next time. I felt terrible. I was devastated. I had not meant to insult God. Here I was all happy and KF terrorized us. I can't believe I submitted to that garbage. Thx and Peace.

I left in 1986 and stumbled onto Waydale around 1999 perhaps. I spoke to Paul Allen one time, too. He was calmly furious at twi and determined to push them as far as he could. IMO, it was because the Allens filed suit that lcm was "fired?" as Prez and then left HQ. It was because of Waydale and the Allen's fearless approach to those bullies that this happened. LCM was forced out of the ranks. Perhaps advice from twi's lawyers to put the abuser as far away from the Corporation as possible ushered that departure forward. Later donna divorced him. I scoured Waydale a lot and posted there, too. They took documents and other info from HQ and posted it online. For example, Waydale posted audio clips of lcm's rants from SNS teachings on all he hated, homosexuals and seed boyz and all that crap, and posted them. Having left in 1986 I was stunned at what was going on, and by how much tighter the leash had been tightened up there. From Waydale I learned about the command to tithe and the review of 1040's to check income and enforce tithing. I learned Corpse were full time per lcm. I learned that everyone within a 200 mile radius, was it??, had to attend one SNS every month because the vpw wow auditorium was not getting filled too much. I learned I was DFAC, hahaha. And there is more. The links in this post are good, and even Waydale is linked in this site. For me, Waydale was a great site. And, the info they had was transferred here, a lot of it, before they shut down per the settlement. I think they only had a week or so to make that transition. Greasespot is the direct descendant of Waydale. I thank the Allens for what they did. In all sincerity, I do believe that TWI would still be in a much better position with supporters and finances had Waydale not come along. It was also the first major site that Ex- way like me could go and touch base see some of our Brothers and Sister's from back then using Friend Finder. Before that there was really no where to go.

I could not agree more, Bolshevik, and thank you for saying it just like you did.

I'm going to toss in Act of worship here with Belief for another angle on this. I have read that the only religion that brings belief into the equationas the main requirement for "entry" is Christianity. For example, Jesus told people to believe in Him, or His sayings, for example. "Believe in me", He said. No other religions make believing a core tenet other than Christianity, do they? Other religions only have the Act of worship. For example, I know a person who places food at the feet of her idols in her little Hindu shrine in her home. She doesn't believe in the idol- she is simply doing what she raised to do. This god has powers that other ones don't. Should she need help in another area then she goes to that god and pays homage and obesisance by an Act of worship. She does not love or adore the god. She acts as she needs to to get favor. And she only pays homage a few times a week, and in between the little visits she doen't give that god another thought. She did her part. Should one decide crop help is needed then they might place Baal on the mantle and feed him, too. Or light candles. These are the acts of worship. No belief for results is needed. Only an Act. You could be hating that god as you place the gift at their feet, but it does not matter as long as the Act is ok because your dirty selfish impure thoughts aren't part of the deal. There is an element of belief here in the act, I suppose, but Chritianity is the only one that says ALL you must do is simply Believe. In Pagan religions I can freely jump from one god to another as long as I can do an Act of worship. So belief and acts are a little intertwined, but not like Christianity. I must say that I am astounded at the things I used to believe while in the way and afterwards. I didn't begin serious "deconstruction" until 3 years ago, unintentionally as I followed my curiosity, and what a SHOCK! The Noahic Flood never happened! And what a shock to find a site full of former Fundamentalist and Biblical Literalist PhD's and scientists and academics that have gone through deconstruction and are flipping out over how their belief system was utterly crushed and dismantled all the way back to Genesis and Adam and Eve. https://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/index.html Gee whiz and LOL, I suppose. I can relate. How disappointed I was as I learned more. That's my 2 cents that I wanted throw in here if it wasn't mentioned already. Don't mean to throw thread off. Just wanted to mention Belief vs. Acts. Good luck all!

Red Dots: Chip S., one of the smartest guys around, was a Research Dept. fellow, and he was 6th. We are from the same city, our parents knew each other, and I hung out with him a little in Morgantown, WV at WVU before his and my corpse days. A building at WVU is named after his grandfather. Big educators that family. Chip was in the Research Dept. at HQ and more than qualified for it. He left about 1980? for Calif. to get his PhD in Humanities. Having worked a little in the first days of JCOP with him at week seminar at Gunnison (1978) I called him in 1995 with a question on it that J. Schoe*nh**t had asked me on it. I had been out since 1986 but, unfortunately, was getting engaged in a splinter group (DOH!). By this time he had been long gone from the way, got his PhD , was married with a small family, and was teaching at a small college in VA. We got caught up, and when I posed the question on the six denials of Peter there was a long silence on the phone, several seconds, and then he pointedly asked, " Are you still thinking about that " schnit?!" (censored earlier) These days I, too, knowing what I know, do sometimes ask myself that same question. There's just no way to unravel a lot of this, and a lot of it simply does not matter. That laser dot example is a pretty good one. Peace.

According to Bart Ehrman, UNC Chapel Hill Greek NT scholar, the KJV is the worst version for any research (study). He says that at the end. In the video link below he will take you through how, even today, any KJV version, including New KJV, still only uses the original 8 to 10 texts from the first translation for revisions or updating. They ignore all the new ones; it's really a massaging of what was done over 400 years by updating words and the like and not much else. Also, the new translations use over 5000 more texts discovered since 1611. I am trying to cite him from the video and if I err so sorry. The folks who have worked on KJV, including our beloved 1881 Version that vpw said was one of the best translations (how would he know? LOL how would he know???) did not reference any newly discovered texts. Well, aren't all the Concordances and other research materials are keyed to KJV?! Hence, even more books of mine went out the door in disgust- some to the library and some to file 13. A lot of this info is the book I posted in Doctrinal titled Making Sense of the Bible by Adam Hamilton a Methodist minister. BTW, Ehrman was a Fundamentalist like I was in the Way (don't know what you considered yourself to be), lotsa' classes at Moody Bible, and Literalist all the way until he began doing textual work on his Masters at Princeton University in New Jersey and he started to question some things. Like him I did, too, and I've been learning a lot the last 4 years. I was just reminded last week that we were discouraged from outside investigation. And, we (me) did not have the internet. Was the author of the pdf living at Defcon3 or something? Gee whiz. Red dot.

I'll try and elaborate a little then to clarify. I don't think he was savvy, shrewd, or perceptive in the way a con man (the ones I've met) are and need to be. The way their minds work, to me, seems to be particular type that sizes folks up and the opportunities they may afford in a mtter of minutes, and how to manipulate them. Geer has that kind of mind to me. Did it end up as a con? Yes, but perhaps it morphed into something like that because of his own flaws. And the flaws of Howard Allen (another big drinker), and others. I also don't think a man like him would waste all that time, a decade?, developing a class to a point where folks like Peter J. Wade and Dave Anderson and others put lots of effort into it to tape it. They would not be "OK" with the intent to pull a massive con. So, I don't think he or any of them had the foresight to see the opportunity that the Class would offer them as far as money and power. I could very well be wrong, Rocky. Maybe I'm still conned. Like Waysider said, he stumbled into it. He was a swindler in that we did not get, at least I didn't, all that they said God has for us. Not even close. The attachement is how I see it (by Ralph). RalphDubofskySummation.pdf Better go or I'll go off topic.

He didn't "fall" into it, but I don't think he planned anything much. He put the class together over a decade or so? Taught it to Adults. Got discouraged because the adults (Midwesterners!) wouldn't get onboard. Taped it because Dave Anderson pushed him to (Vpw a visionary?? Nope. He couldn't even see the value of multiple classes running with with multiple income streams being generated at the same time). He took it to the younger folks somehow, found out about the hippies East and West- tapped into them with the class, and then it spread like wildfire. From what I have read, it was Del Duncan that told VPW to take over the West. At a big meeting out West Duncan got ol' vpw to get onstage and told him, esesentially, to sieze it. Tell them things are changing. So, vpw gets up there, said they were combining West with East. Then it became Way West and Way East, I think. (need Ralph). Yes, and he donned the garb and played the role of an unorthodox Preacher. I think that was about all he could figure out. After that everything moved fast fast fast. I don't think anyone back then could keep up with the growth- it overtook them at HQ. He got a Motorcoach. Then, a plane. Like any good salesman vpw (1) believed 100% in his product, and (2) was enthusiastic about it, and that assuredly helped it sell. I saw bootleg copies of piffle a few years back. I watched a couple of random sessions and the opening session 1 for about ten minutes each. I have to tell you, the guy was good, really good, and it was easy to see how young, lost folk could get sold and sell out to all of it back in the early 70's. Just look at me! 10th corpse! Well, I just don't see that he ever intended to con folks because he was not smart enough like that- he used fear and bullying and intimidation. Probably one of the worst tactics in the corpse was yelling at us, dressing us all down until we felt shame and being less than. Then, he (Craig et al, too) let us stew in that for a a day, then get us all together later on and love us up real nice....ooooh- all warm and glowing now. I think I read where that's a common play of an abuser, and a lot of folks had been abused (physically or verbally or emotionally) before getting in the Way and so that felt normal. Just can't see that he had that kind of foresight. Thx.

I don't think that he was smart enough to be a con man. I think he fell into taping piffle (Dave Anderson), young ones came in (us), money came in, and they expanded. I find no brains there at all with him. He had the farm as a starting point and had family to help out. He was a flawed man, and those flaws permeated and influenced everything and everyone around him. His drinking was apparent during teachings as he slurred his speech, his anger was unmatched as he could melt a face, his lusts were not controlled by him, and his Germanic background lended itself to authoritarianism. Lots of fear used as motivation....there's that nasty Sand again. I don't believe there was anything like a long-term business plan. Why? Because I don't think he nor howard or ermal or harry knew how to do long term planning. Preparing for the influx of people and the astounding growth would have been a touch hard to see, yes? They were flying by the seat of their pants for sure. Very few top leaders had any true leadership ability. Why were they in senior positions then? Those like the moynihans, reahards, andersons, the allens, finnegan, and on and on. They were in those positions because they were there first and not because of skill necessarily. Yes, we were led by folks who themselves needed to be led. And vp had them under his thumb and indoctrinated with piffle. And they kept flying by the seat of their pants as we got onboard.

I'm a little behind on this but I left in '86 and recall hearing it before then, too. I wonder now why we were so afraid because, after all, we were loaded for bear with Spirit power. Hmmmmm. I guess I was in really bad shape. sigh...

But Way Productions is really humming along superbly! First rate entertainement (soooo painful to watch them onstage) with the women's midwestern hair salon hairdo's.....50 years with the same hairdos!! You can't add more starch to their acts. Gawd....

Tuesday afternoon's forecast predicted, at worst, 50 mph winds and big time rain and squalls Sunday Monday. We've had worse summer thunderstorms and low pressure systems stuck over us for days here in South Florida (Hi Raf). The track up the peninsula like Irma from Sept 2017 is eerie. My experience tells me, after 30 years in S Florida, that it's the Canes in September- October that are usually the fiercest and sometimes they come one after another. Dorian last year was nerve wracking as we waited for that Cat 5 to hit us. We were spared its awful destructive wrath, but the Bahamians weren't. The watching and waiting is killer on Cat 3's and above. This is just a Tropical Storm at best. The anxiety of waiting for the big ones as they approach is no fun I assure you. And, the aftermath of no electricity (air conditioning) sometimes for weeks in the super intense heat and humidity is no fun. No ice, either, so I've had to toss my entire freezer and frig contents out several times since Francis and Jeanne in '04 and Wilma in '05. Remember, they can turn on a dime.

Hi there, Bob is in San Diego. I saw he and Annette and their 4 sons about ten years ago. Reconnected on FB.

You're welcome, T-Bone. Thank you for posting that.

This book is an easy and enjoyable read. Written from the Methodist viewpoint, it addresses inerrancy and infallibility of the Bible (it is not), the assumption of many regarding verbal, plenary inspiration (Biblical Literalism Fundamentalists cling to and demand) of II Timothy 3:16, Genesis and it's writers, how reliable are the Gospel accounts and the sources of the Gospels, suffering, homosexuality, Canonization, science and Young Earth Creationists, and on and on. He does all this by discussing the various arguments and viewpoints in a respectful manner, and not from a Bully Pulpit. The Gospel Coalition disapproves of this book. I turned a friend of mine onto it, Ex-Way, and she finished it in 5 days (390 pp). I enjoyed it a lot, and it answered so many nagging and perplexing questions for me. I share this, and many may know about it as it's not that new, so you can check it out yourself. Not going to debate or discuss anything as that is not my cup of tea, thank you. Just tossing this out there so you know about it. https://www.amazon.com/Making-Sense-Bible-Rediscovering-Scripture/dp/0062234986/ref=asc_df_0062234986/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312111868709&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13776057707950460462&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9012050&hvtargid=pla-546573317487&psc=1 It brought me a lot of peace because I had already sniffed a lot of this out myself with online articles. Had I read something like this many decades ago, I doubt I would have been sucked into the way, and for sure not the wretched corpse. Peace

Hi Rejoice, I, too, was stunned after I stumbled on it. An admiration site for he who shall not be named. Yechhhhh!

I burnt up a lot of good music Albums during those UH Days in the late 70's. And a few books. Black smoke heavenwards. Not quite incense. Burnt the wrong books.

I recall that, too, as Raf does....exactly... in Piffle. Thought about it last night. But, we know there was more, too.

Stay away from Momentous. I almost took it, and it would have destroyed me in my disorganized and confused mental state of seeking answers. I have spoken to two Directors of Momentous. Once in 1996 by phone. I was dissuaded to take it by the lack of clear reasons as to why a release was necessary. I had not heard specific horror stories then but only about the extreme intensity of it. Then, the second one a few years ago. Said it was a great seminar, though it destroyed one facet of her personal life. Like her marriage. I had long ago abandoned the idea in 1996 because of that legal Release, and the stories that had emerged, but now it was 2016, and this was a former Board member. Not known here, BTW. Still, after 20 years, she still believed it was good. Not a thing wrong with it. Stood by it. I know plenty of others who it really messed up. They had no idea what was about to happen, and our training as corpse to tough anything out for God and the Word kept them there in that scary and abusive environment. Then some came out all whacked out. I speak of the ones I know. Well, if it personal Transformation you're after, then that takes time, and quietness. That can be done on one's own time. No yelling and all that other junk. Momentous is destructive to the Self, and my Board of Directors person applauded the methodology. But, then, she also believes, as of 2016, that vpw was a genius at putting all that diverse material together from all those other teachers, Leonard, Stiles, Kenyon, Pillai, and on and on, and getting it so fabulously to us. And, vpw, in spite of what she knew about him, was tremendous in his teaching and compilation abilities, that personal shortcomings could be noted, but overlooked in favor of the former. We had that discussion 3 or 4 times, and she just could not budge from that view. We do not speak anymore. The "Eternally Blessed" website is for her Ilk. That person also LOVED the corpse....the 14th. Need I say more?

I simply think we were poorly and pathetically taught. The Splinter Groups simply cannot admit they were taught wrong. Session One? Piffle.....what corrects wrong teaching? Hah! Right teaching. And, that ain't coming from The Way no matter the Era. I also think that's why splinter groups keep splintering further and further into the Wild Blue Yonder: It appears to me that the Splinter Groups believe they were taught correctly, ALMOST, but, like a Cook, this needs more salt, hmmmm, some more of this, or that. Then, we'll have this Manifestions of the Spirit stuff cooking, our Walk by the Spirit, and the Word will move. Well, I'd love to see that, but, I doubt it. Nope. Sorry. Your Foundation is a mess, IMO, designed poorly, and the exclusion of the Chief Cornerstone was a fundamental mistake. Go back. Make a course correction. Raze your building, and start over, or do some costly repair work. And, costly it will be, I assure you, but better. These daze, my opinion is that if you cannot or will not sincerely try to practice the "Sermon on the Mount," or other sayings of Jesus, then SIT DOWN and SHUT UP. One more thing: Splinter Groups that we may know will never change what they are teaching- they have too much time and effort invested in their writings, publications, events, websites, people, organization, and so forth, to CHANGE their "theological" positions. After all, some have their "doctorates" now, and an honest reevaluation of their positions after 40 years would be nearly impossible it seems. It is out of the question for some to consider that we were instructed so terribly and anemically in comparison to other Fundamentalist Christian groups (if that is one's ilk): Baptists, Reformed Theology, other Biblical Literalists like RC Sproul, Al Mohler, and John Piper- they can dismantle the Ways "teachings" easily because they were schooled well, and ours was developed by a POS who was a shallow thinker, but a good salesman. Oh, let us not forget Dr. John Juedes. BTW, I have seen the claims that they went to Seminary now to explain away, bury, the three brutal years of corpse doggy doodoo brainwashing. An Ex-Way claiming Seminary? Weren't we taught to despise Seminaries? Why did they say this, then? To bolster their authority or credibility? And one of those didn't even know what Eschatology was, and that by abandoning Dispensationalism, as he said he sorta' did, the entire Eschatological viewpoints change or vanish. So much for the critical thinking in YOUR realm of studies. Doctorates? I am very fond of the folks I met in those years, I truly am. Isn't there an adage out there that goes something like "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?" My insanity that led, in part, to my many woes over the last 40 years was just that: trying to get Way doctrine to work. It simply didn't, and, for me, and caused me great harm and loss. Fare Thee Well to all Way offshoots.

The journey to realiization of self outside Christian Fundamentalism and Twit has been long and arduous for me. This site has, again, proven invaluable. DWBH, unbeknownst to him, has helped me tremendously on the finding of the Authentic Self and by mentioning other concepts to which I was CLUELESS. I truly thought I left the Twit outlook on life years after 1986, but the last ten years showed me I had not. I essentially cocooned me, myself, and I (ALL of US) for the last 1 1/2 years to investigate where my behaviors and actions, beliefs, and so forth, originated because my life was still a true mess. Worse than ten years ago. Oh, and my sisters deserve credit for saving my life: they told me that they thought I had some kind of PTSD or something (in addition to one vice I've struggled with since '86), and that IT , that Thing, was from Twit! That was 3 years ago my sisters told me. Shocking what I have seen. I have felt like I was one of the engineers in Chernobyl (HBO) who, so well "trained" in the Soviet- Communist doctrine, that they could not believe the reactor blew up. But, there it was: blown up. Denial. Why could they not wrap their heads around it? Well, all the information in the studies proved it couldn't explode, plus, it was Soviet made, and therefore the BEST, and THIS reactor type CANNOT blow up. Check it out. Don't want to spoil it. The cognitive dissonance term I've seen around here was in full view on the actors faces. What a fine job those actors did. And, my goodness, it's a really bright world out there. WOW. Might what I am experiencing here of late perhaps be compared to Helen Keller's first understanding "water?" An awakening? One step was going back to my science. That's in another thread. Genesis 1 "became" (hah) allegorical to me and not literal. If Fundamentalist folks don't like that, well, I'll just say Revelation is mostly allegorical and symbolic, yet you chose to make it literal, right? So, why, based on your approach, can't I take your literal and make it allegorical and symbolic? I investigated myself because I knew Twit had affected me, but how deeply? How much. What could I not see? What did I leave unfinished? Sisters said trauma??? So, off I went. Why was I erratic? Where was my happy personal life? The doctrine and abuse from Twit and corpse did traumatize me, and the fact that it was force fed and with a good helping of abuse there really f'd me up. As I see it, the introjected regulations, beliefs or actions that do not agree with my Authentic self and that I "integrated" these into my "self" as good. They were not good at all, caused severe conflicts. I was not aware how PERVASIVE the "trauma" went inside me until lately during my sabbatical. And, it's mostly Twit/corpse junk, and I know when the first "shudder" went through me, and who it was- a 3rd corpse..close to VPW. Summer 1974, West Virginia, 2 months in, at the limb house for a meeting w/ fellow servants, all local believers- a great bunch. I was so happy to be there. So happy. All open and vulnerable. Limb Coor walks in to the front of room to the podium, but we remained seated, then we got a 10 minute reproof session to STAND next time he entered the room out of RESPECT for the word of god that is inside of him. Severe reproof. Blindsided. Mortal Sin stuff. We were all scared (fake reverent and humble). Then, a few weeks later, I HAD to see him about something (?), and when I sat down in his office I was so scared that I was literally shaking in my chair. He saw me shaking. Shaking like a wet dog in the freezing rain. The first trauma to self had occurred, IMO. More to follow as I get led in. Because of this path, I was able to formulate a much better view of all this for me. This question of homosexuality is not too hard for me to handle now. I now say that each person has the right to be who they are, no matter what that is. They have the right to be their fully beautiful (hopefully?) selves....their Authentic Selves. Their struggle to find their Identity and acceptance and place in this world is, undoubtedly, much easier for a heterosexual person like myself, and that was confusing enough time for me. I was in NYC this past April with my family to see "Hamilton." Yes, I loved it, and because my sister gifted me the ticket I don't get any Christmas presents from her for the next 10 years! OK!? TEN YEARS! But, our waiter at lunch before the play, a slender 30'ish year old man of Oriental extraction, had a remarkably beautiful, soft, and feminine voice. Later, my sister, more advanced than me having never been in Twit, mentioned that he might be transitioning. I was happy for that person if that's what it is. Finding themselves. And, being themselves. I am heterosexual, and I do not understand the attraction at all, not one whit. Therefore, I find that world unappealing, and, to me, repulsive. But, in all honesty, if I think for a moment of sex between couples I know, well, that really super grosses me out, too! Like, gnarly, dude. Go away. So, I ask you, do you really care what goes on in someones' bedroom? I don't like a local Market with just potatoes (Lo Shonta or Russet) , but one full of the Variety of foods and colors of all shapes, sizes and kinds, and different flowers and aromas, and rocks. M'OK?

Too CUTE! LOL, 2.