anotherDan

Yes. She's our youngest. She's 21 and married now. She wrote the song when she was about 18. I happen to think she's amazing, and her two sisters as well, but that's to be expected. This link for this video on YouTube is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgx86eQocas in case you want to send it to someone, or comment where she'll see it. The guy who posted it is Tim, my other son-in-law, who's married to Rachel. Quite a musician himself.

Just twice in the KJV, Grouchy 1Ti 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. Act 5:14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.

Capiche

Service with a smile! Thanks! I needed that!

Belle, that picture is precious!

Hi Doug. I'm Dan Haas. If you're not near any "splinter groups," I would say you're lucky. There's a lot of Waybrain to overcome (and a lot that was taught in the Way was very good, in my opinion). You appear to feel the same. Anyway, I don't know if you're a reader, but there are a lot of wonderful books on biblical research by F. F. Bruce, Dallas Willard, Fee and Stewart (How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth) and Bruce M. Metzger, and many more. Speaking strictly for myself, one of the greatest leaps of growth was when I began to realize how important the Gospels are. They were written AFTER the Church Epistles, you know. Disconnecting ourselves from the teachings of Jesus as "not addressed to us" is a huge impediment to what you're looking for -- fellowship. It starts with God and His Son.... "that you might have fellowship with us, and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ." Secondly, FOR ME, getting to know Jesus as Lord by doing the things he says was a big step forward to him actually being Lord. "Why do you call me lord, and not do the things that I say?" If your current church doesn't seem like the place where you can really grow, go to a different one each week, and also during the week to bible studies that many churches offer, often in members' homes. There is so much to learn once you're out. I'm glad you're here, too, and I also have made some wonderful friends already. I'm sure you'll get many different takes on the subject. This is just mine. PM me or email me if there's anything you'd like to talk about. Dan

This is my youngest daughter.... ain't she purdy? Glad to help! It's fun! Hey exie, if you really get into it and want to upload a LOT of photos at a time to different sub-albums and such, the next step is to download and install the FLOCK web-browser. I think it's somewhere on the photobucket site. Makes uploading a LOT of files easier. It's pretty easy to learn, and I find I browse with Flock all the time. And, the price is right.

I found myself (if I can call it that) sitting across from a kindly gentleman, in what could only be described as a perfect office. By "perfect," I mean it was comfortable, elegant in style and scale, yet nothing intruded on the senses. There were no question-begging photographs or egocentric art, nothing to distract from the task at hand. I felt disembodied and yet very present. I didn’t know who "I" was. I remember thinking briefly about it as Jeffrey—I’d guess he was in his fifties—looked at me with gentle patience. Perhaps I was in a psychiatrist’s office, I thought, and was under some kind of drug. It didn’t matter. I felt safe. I needn’t figure it out now. Jeffrey asked me if I wanted to be born male or female. As odd as it seems now, I didn’t at the time find it a strange question. Rather, I answered with surprising certainty, "Female." He made a note. "Now, tell me what is important to you. I don’t want to suggest any categories or lead you in any way. I want you to have full control over this. Just go with stream-of-consciousness for now." He looked at me over the top of his glasses. Again, it seems strange, but I was quite forward with my answer. "I want to be pretty." "Pretty? How pretty?" "As pretty as possible." I saw the faintest look of concern on Jeffrey’s face. Asking for "pretty" is pretty vain, I thought to myself. Maybe I should have said I wanted to be wise—wise, and then pretty. "There is a down side to being pretty, you know." "Like what?" "Well, a pretty girl may wonder if her friends—and especially her suitors—really love her for her whole self, rather than for her looks. She may be an object to them, a prize." "Yes," I said, "I can see that." "It’s like the guy who says, first thing, that he wants to be rich and/or successful. A lot of people who are in fact rich find themselves with a lot of friends, (his tone indicated quotation marks) and pursuers, but the rich man is wary of them. He’s often not quite sure why they are so friendly—even the sincere ones, who love him for what he is, and not just because he’s rich." "I follow you, but are you saying I might be better off if I choose to be homely?" "That’s entirely up to you. There is nothing wrong with being pretty." I studied him. He returned my gaze, it seemed, without a trace of insincerity—no defenses, no masks. I felt that he was for me. I went on, "I also want to be wise." "In what way do you want to be wise? Describe the kind of wisdom you want to have." "I want to be able to tell when people are sincere, so I don’t get myself into trouble." He waited, as if to allow me to go on, but I wanted his feedback. "A better term for that would be discernment," he said simply. "Yes. Discernment." "Very good." He made a note. "Is there a downside to discernment?" "Not that comes to mind." "Shall I go on? "Please." "I want to be comfortable. Not rich, but comfortable." "Why not rich?" he said, and smiled. I looked at him, knowingly. His smile broadened. "I also want to have a good husband, and a family." Jeffrey stopped taking notes, and looked up. "Essentially, we’re working on what you’d like to be." He said, gently. "What you are will determine the type of mate you’ll choose later—and who might choose you." "I see." I thought a minute. "But I can choose to be comfortable, financially?" "Not really. It’s a bit complicated. You’ll get the hang of it as we go along. You’ll feel it in here." He pointed to his stomach. "Someone else might have said they wanted to be a hard worker, faithful, a person of integrity, and frugal. That would pretty much assure that they would be comfortable. Do you see what I mean?" "Yes." "You have all the time in the world." "What if I said I wanted to be happy?" "Would it be all right if you were born with Downs Syndrome?" I looked at him in shock. He was not joking. "Of course not!" I exploded. I waited for a reaction, but he remained steady, and gentle. I then said in a more normal tone of voice, "That would pretty much negate being pretty, wouldn’t it?" "Not necessarily," he replied. At this point I began to feel a little panicky. Looking back at this, I marvel that I even continued the conversation, but nothing seemed more natural to me at the time. This was my destiny we were talking about! "I want to start over." I thought a moment. "Once we’re done, I get the feeling that a lot of blanks are filled in based on my choices… and they all seem to be filled in with what you call the down-sides." I meant this as a question. "Well, yes… but there are also many ‘up-sides,’ if you will, that may fill in the blanks." "I’m happy to hear that." My expression conveyed wry humor, and Jeffrey joined me in a smile. I went on, "What if I said I wanted to be poor. Might there be some up-sides to that?" "Certainly. And some down-sides, of course." He had been right. I could not cognitively get a handle on what was happening, but I was catching on by the feel of things. It felt similar to that moment in my childhood when dad was teaching me to ride a bike, and he had just let go of me. The theory was one thing, but the experience another. I began to review the lives of others I have known. I saw so much heartache, even among people I admired—especially among the gifted! And I saw ‘lucky’ buffoons, and good people taken advantage of. I suppose I thought of these things for about ten minutes without a word to Jeffrey. My eyes were closed. I thought I’d better check to see if I was inconveniencing him, but when I opened my eyes, there he was, looking at me without a trace of impatience or distraction. I had all the time in the world. I thought of a man in the news who had won the lottery, and had a lot of money stolen from him. He seemed to be a complete azz —a pathetic soul. I thought of the Kennedys, and of O.J. Simpson. I thought of Jesus... I took my time. I thought of my Grandma Lois. "I want to be pure of heart." "We’re starting over?" Jeffrey asked, with a faint smile. "Yes." "People will take advantage of you." "I know." "Okay. Pure of heart." He turned a page, and made a note. "What else?" "I don’t care how I look. I don’t care if I’m male or female." "No, you’ll have to choose that." "Okay. Female. And I want to be dependable, without guile, and tender-hearted." "Okay." He was writing. "I want to be poor." He stopped writing and raised his eyebrows. "Are you sure? Do you want to be destitute?" My gut and my mind were fighting with one another. I wanted to say ‘yes,’ but I couldn’t, and I couldn’t tell if it was my mind or my gut that wanted to say ‘no,’ nor why that might matter. I finally replied, "No, I’m not sure." "Then let’s just leave that for now." he said, reassuringly. "Do you want to define ‘pure of heart’?" "No. My head is swimming!" I felt dizzy and weak. My heart was racing; I could hear it, almost, in my ears. "It’s okay. Don’t worry about it." Then, reassuringly, "Let’s take a break. Would you like to get some lunch or take a walk by yourself in the park?" He motioned out the window. "I’ll be here when you get back. Take all the time you like." "No, I’m okay. I want to go on. But can I ask a question?" "Certainly. Anything you like." I needed to know. "Is there any justice in the world?" "Oh my, yes." he said without hesitation. "Justice and mercy aplenty—both." "Good." Again, this seems strange in retrospect, but at the time I felt I could just take him at his word. There were both mercy and justice in the world. Period. End of query. "I want to be understanding, patient, quick to hear and slow to speak, trustworthy." "How about frugal and hard working?" he said. Now he was joking. "I’m in charge here, right?" I said firmly. "Right." He said, and with a look of mock humility, jotted his notes. "…and trustworthy." He put down his pen. "You want to be a virtuous person." "I do. Is there a downside to that?" "Well, some people will admire you. But some will despise you." "Yes." "And some will envy you." "And that will be their problem, right?" "Yes. But you will not be immune from suffering as a result of your virtue." He was perfectly serious, and I knew it. "So be it." I said firmly. I felt an impulse to reach across the desk and grasp Jeffrey’s hands in gratitude, and felt perfectly at liberty to do so, and as I did, I found myself reaching across the bed towards my husband. Morning light was streaming through the sheer curtains, and the normal smells of the linens, my home, and my husband were at first comforting, but then I remembered where I "was" a moment ago. Then I felt upset that I didn’t have time to finish my instructions. I felt indignant and cheated. Jeffrey said I had all the time in the world! I walked into the kitchen and pushed the button on the coffeemaker. My normal life was continuing. Silly dream! Looking out the kitchen window, I began to think of my day, but as I made my way back to the bedroom, the details of my dream came back to me in sharp focus, and not just the thoughts, but the feelings. "What a crazy dream," I said to my husband, who was stirring. "What was it about?" he asked. (He loves me; he was always interested.) I sat on the side of the bed, the details of my dream still coming to me. "It frustrated me so much, except for one thing. I’m glad I asked the question, ‘Is there justice in the world?’ and the answer was, ‘Yes. There is justice and mercy aplenty—both.’" I stood up and walked toward the door. "I’ll be right back. Want some coffee?" "Uh huh." I left the room. Then he called after me. "I’ll have some justice and mercy, too!" I returned with two mugs of fresh coffee. Tom turned on his side, propping up his head with one hand, while reaching for the coffee with the other. He sipped gratefully. I sat beside him, and sipped from my cup. "Do you think I’m pretty?" I asked, and looked into his eyes. "Are you kidding? You are drop-dead gorgeous!" He said, and started to pull me towards him. Coffee was sloshing around dangerously. I pulled away, giving him the ‘not now’ look. I was serious. I started crying; I don’t know why. Tom said nothing. He put down his coffee and squeezed the back of my neck just as I like it, and ‘did nice’ on my back, waiting. "I don’t really care if I’m pretty." I said. "Well, you are. You are the prettiest girl in the world." I looked at him through my tears. Suddenly, my dream forgotten, I realized more fully what this morning was to be about. The coffee was doing its work. I’d waited up for Tom last night, but he got in very late, and I’d fallen asleep on the couch. His face came into clearer focus for a moment, and then blurred again as my tears started again. I willed them to stop, and smiled broadly at Tom. "We’re going to have a baby," I said, a little too breezily. Tom’s hand stopped moving on my back, and a look of awe came over him. "It’s positive?" he asked, quietly. I nodded.

I THINK it's fixed: I am sorry for the false start! Hope you enjoy it. The world will tell you differently...

Raf, that makes sense. Thanks edit: Larry, we're posting at the same time. I think you're right about some folks, and johniam may have picked that up from some people's posts, and read it into JohnJ's thing. I haven't read it... only the excerpts. At this point, I'm taking Raf's word for it. I guess I should shut up, since I haven't read all of the available material!

You've made that clear, Oldies, and on a certain level, I agree with you. I also think they have some important things to say. You have demonstrated a willingness to see it another way if it's explained in a way that makes sense to you. They've tried to do that, but you are unconvinced. Again, I can respect that. Been there! I do think they make some good points that you don't acknowledge. The reverse is also true. I think you're misunderstood and underappreciated. edit: yes, of course, you can call me Dan or dan... easy to type, and friendly. Unless another other dan or InvisibleDan is here. However, being invisible, how would we know? :P

I think the term "heaven" conveys the meaning of "that which is above us." In that sense, we will "go to heaven," where there will be no sun, for God Himself will be our light. But this heaven will be on earth. Paradise restored. Redemption complete. Justice and mercy administered, God's way. It's a happy thought.

WW, you object to subscription radio for what reason? Do the streaming ones have commericials or not? I tried one once and it was too much trouble... maybe it's better now pre-86 would definitely put me more in the running. Pre-74 even moreso (the year I first went WOW) <_<

Sunesis... I happened to land on that too when I was skimming. I felt sure someone would comment exactly as you did! LOL That's funny. (Of course, the subject and your observation are NOT funny.) likeaneagle: I don't think it's inappropriate at all. Hope that isn't how it sounded. I say "good," let the man speak for himself. My own feelings are that the teaching has some valuable insights and heart, and it has a lot of "private interpretation" and pride. "Those are THE seven characteristics." I let others have their clear view of him as black or white. To me, he is an enigma and an amalgam. Well, I'm done with my "processing" about "what VP meant to me" for the morning... I'm late for work, actually.

Oldies, you know I respect your POV, but I have to say, this is absurd. You're saying that unbelief defeats the promises of God to the one who is unbelieving. I get that, but don't you see how this so-called "law" turns faith into something it really isn't? Don't you see that the emphasis shifts from the One-who-is-to-be-believed to the believer? To you, it may look like a subtle difference, but once you allow yourself outside the box, it's like night and day. Terms like "demand payment" on a promise also get the process backward. I know you are trying to be a faithful man, and I really am glad that you are around here to provide some balance once in a while. Many of the things you say make a lot of sense to me. Is it your position that PFAL was all doctrinally correct? I don't know what your answer would be. In other words, I don't recall you ever taking exception to what VP taught. You have come out against his personal "sins." But what about doctrine? Is there anything taught in the class that you disagree with? I think the verse itself is hyperbole. And it very effectively communicates the power of faith. I loved that one. You and Raf have made some great points. Thanks, George! That's easy. "God be merciful unto me, a sinner." This is the man who went away justified, rather than the other. We are saved by grace, through faith. But (as you know, but apparently some do not) it is "not of ourselves. It is the gift of God. Another great contribution! Good point about the double standard. Good insight regarding the "healing word" thing. Thanks, John Groucho, the term is "mentally assented" It means that we agree in our minds. The context was always as a mental process but without actual faith, (which we pigheadedly HAD to refer to as "believing.") Your posts were great.

I think he has a point there, Larry! likeaneagle: You're gonna get flack for posting that, I would guess. But it's good. I browsed a little. I remember studying the heck out of that teaching at one time. I think it may have been his last public teaching. It brings me back to "the day" and makes me a little sad. What are your thoughts on it?

but now I see, Thanks for taking the time to post that (parts 1,2,and3). Great perspective, and a proper warning from the Lord. I've decided to save it to Favorites so in case I run across a newbie here, I can point him or her to it as recommended reading. Outstanding!

bul... that one is goofy-cool! Wonder where he is now. Maybe working at Home Depot.

johnj, We've not met or conversed before. I've read your work a number of times through the years. I agree substantially with your post. I tend to be an anti-anti, and though I think maybe Larry could have said it better, I also tend to appreciate those with more affirmative ministries. Apparently, God can teach old dogs new tricks, because I now understand that I've become an "anti" if I take an anti-anti stand! Rather hypocritical. I spent about 25 years "in the ministry." I lived it day after day. In some ways, I'm still living it because I believe it. I haven't left "the Way," because Jesus Christ said, "I am the Way," something VPW taught me. Certainly, I could have learned it in any number of churches, but I learned it there, and many other things that I still believe. I also learned error, which I've had to correct, and I practised error, for which I've had to repent. One example is in relation to "the Word." I learned my love for God's Word in the ministry, and yet I didn't REALLY "love the Word" enough to honestly let "interpret itself." And I am ashamed of how long I remained in that juvenile state. Regarding the headline question of this thread, I cannot say "the jury is still out," because there is no jury, only one Judge. There is a tension in me between the "judge" and the "judge not" verses in the Bible, just as there is a tension between justice and mercy. Mercy triumphs, I think. That is the message of the cross. It's dangerous sometimes to answer a question when it is framed either-or. I would like to say that I have no problem with the snow on the gas pumps story. I don't care what the weatherman reported. Could it be a false claim? Absolutely. What about the "revelation" that went along with it, that God would teach him the Word like it had not been known since the first century? Was this a figment of his vain imagination? Maybe. Men are anomalies, from King David to John Smith to Isaac Newton and Victor Wierwille, to Mother Teresa. I happened to live in Victor's time, and I happened to be attracted to some of the things he was preaching and teaching. Some of it resonated very powerfully within me, and caused me to commit myself, and though I saw foolishness and pride at times, and though I was hurt by it, I remained until the leadership of the ministry became untolerably astray in ways that were known to me. Reading what I have read here, I think I should have left much sooner. I was recently at a funeral for a man who apparently wasn't a very good father, and the minister had the curious boldness to suggest that his family forgive him. I say "curious" because we don't normally get into that kind of thing at a funeral. We're there to honor the life of the now departed (or whatever!) But sometimes these things must be said. It must be acknowledged that the guy hurt me, or us. VPW was like that man to me. When he sinned, it was a betrayal of his ministry to me, and what he held himself up to be, a Christian minister. He was too full of himself, and though I heard him acknowledge his debt to others many times, your point is well taken about the dropping out of written acknowledgments. To some he was a monster, to others a Teacher. To me, he was a charismatic and enthusiastic student and teacher (small "t") with feet of clay, sometimes pitiable. I don't get it, how the brilliant Isaac Newton could be into alchemy and biblical research. How priests can molest little boys. I just don't get it, but there it is. It is a good thing to separate the evil from the good. For your work, John, in that regard, I thank you. You're a valuable member of the Body of Christ.

LOL! OK, this pot is admitting that the Potter knows better than he! If WW gives a quiz, I'm toast!

notawafer.... remember, well-behaved women rarely make history!

exie, if you're trying to post a picture here, I'd advise uploading it to Photobucket.com. Signing up is fast and free. Then you browse your desktop to upload the photo to your main album. Then you post the IMG line and the picture pops up. If you're trying to upload it to the Gallery, I don't know... I haven't tried that yet. The Gallery confuses me! PM me if I can help. Dan

Shame on Me Bob Cooney (on left) is my son-in-law's dad... which makes him WHAT to me? :huh: This was recorded two days ago, by Tim (the son-in-law/son). Backup by Glen (Glenn?) Eliot.

A friend offered to put me on his plan... costs him 5 bucks a month to add me... he was gonna send me the receiver/thingy.... I gave him forty bucks... 3 months ago! LOL What a fascinating modern age we live in! :B)

that's it, RB.... I just talked to Tim, the uploader... he's going to make it public... I'll let you know when it's done. Thanks for your help! ((((((((( RB ))))))))