chockfull

It is amazing how what was passed off as "quality" that the world can not duplicate in all of these endeavors really turns out to be second or third-rate product with a lot of hype. None of these hotshots would even land a C level interview with a medium sized company. Any fortune 500 company would sift their resume to the scrap pile faster than anything.

Since 1986. RFR formed an "alliance" or "friendship" with D0nn@ M and through this procured a position as the leader of the Trustee Cabinet. From that position, when Don W's health turned worse she vied for and stepped into VP position. Howard was replaced by John R as a retirement type of decision by okie. When the first lawsuit came out and Way lawyers forced a deposition and account of all improprieties from okie boy in front of trustees, RFR used this as leverage to convince okie to step down, and that she was the logical choice as 3rd prez. ALL SUBSEQUENT CHANGES have been initiated, decided, and driven by RFR. There is technically a majority vote, but as she has filled positions with those who will not stand up to her that is an irrelevant point. She chose Platig as a prime bobblehead yes-man to her, which he dutifully fulfilled for a time. She drove banishing okie and keeping D0nn@ on (so much for Corps policies regarding marriage). She replaced okie's treasurer John R after building up a bogus case on his personal life and demoted him to a staff department head position. She brought on De-Lisle as a personal choice. Platig started having misgivings about the accuracy of the debt "research". She demoted him to region coord, and replaced him with R4pp. They added McF around Indiana campus sale as another loyal bobblehead. And Mittler through all the physical / building project stuff - again one who functions under directives well. RFR functions as all good political despots have through history - Hitler, Stalin, Lenin. Encourage free exchange of ideas through open speech, through that identify those who oppose your viewpoints or present alternative ideas, and systematically attack and eliminate them. Retain all completely compliant as your top level people. The view of consequences consistently keeps free speech out. Her initial platform was balancing things out by removing all the power from one - the main teacher and main administrator being different. Functionally she moved behind the scenes to garner all the power and move the main teacher function into a spread out function of many with no power. Easier for her - she doesn't have to prepare quality teachings regularly, and can work behind the scenes controlling and driving everything. This is why all the current teachings are so horribly bland and scripted. All pre-submitted, recorded, and approved by one person.

Why we bought it? We were young, impressionable, seeking good, and we didn't listen to our parents.

To end the cycle of abuse and victimization will require professional help. Those that are or who have been in that direct cycle in the past are themselves not best equipped to provide that type of help. Although some of the reading materials recommended here are good - like "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse".

Umm, victim, no. Scumbag and loser, yes.

Rosie has money from inheritance which she used to purchase land. TWI staff built her house for her with free labor - she paid for materials. This level of hypocrisy cries from the rooftops for her to dwell in a cieled house while adamantly opposing those in TWI from having a mortgage as the only viable option for them to own houses. Rosie has her own boat which she stores on TWI property as opposed to needing to pay for moorage. She has servants take care of her house and do all maintenance without paying for it. She does not incur a fraction of the normal costs of living people living in the real world do as she has so many perks included that are all under the table. And like the megalomaniacs that preceded her the absolute authority she's garnered to herself have many practically worshipping her like a goddess. It is vomit inducing. The reason she works long hours at times is because by nature she is one of the most controlling individuals on the planet. EVERY decision goes across her desk. High levels of control, low levels of service. And a position of absolute authority. Control freaks always seem to have a lot of work because it takes a lot of effort doing everyone else's job for them. There is a lot of activity, but little really produced. It also sucks the life out of anyone with ability or talent. It is a complete collectivist culture, and individualism is attacked. Polar opposites of how Jesus Christ walked around on earth. Polar opposites of how the apostle Paul lived. Paul spoke of people like this when he stated after a Jerusalem visit that they seemed to be somewhat but added nothing to him. In all actuality, how they live there is more of a pattern of what you see in Jerusalem at the end of Acts. It is not "It Is Written", it is "It Is Position". Who says something is ultimately more important than the truth of what is said. In that you see the model of the Roman Catholic Church and their priority of decisions 1) What the Pope says, 2) Tradition of the Church, and 3) Scriptures. TWI absolutely functions like that currently and most of the time in the past too with exceptions where genuine people within that devilish structure could act out of the love of God. Those leaders are the Pharisees of Pharisees, and those they raise up like Jesus Christ said will be 3-fold the children of hell they themselves are. Politics, bribery, building of fiefdoms - you have it all there, with legacy money backing it. VPW on the other hand, when receiving the inheritance of his family farm donated all of it to TWI. At least the old lecher was all in to what he was doing. He could have kept so much for himself and his own family. Nowadays they all hide money away and retain lawyers. The salary structure of the top TWI leaders is markedly above the workers who are almost poverty level. And the cost of living is low too. President's Cabinet members are buying houses with cash from the salaries they've saved up, while the poor idiot on the field struggles to work long hours at a normal job or two, raise a family and then spend all spare time attending a fellowship and meeting the requirements of their curriculum and on top of that all the time required to shine up to the local leader so you don't get burned and defamed by their strong-arm tactics. Just the problems of countries without a democracy. There is no middle class in TWI spritually and even more and more culturally and physically either. The middle class are smarter than to subject themselves to the kind of control they observe. The Pharisees used to build huge structures of other Pharisees around them. They would only do business with other Pharisees. This is the history of the "corban" Jesus confronted. If all business was only with other Pharisees all goods and services were tithe free. They could take a widow's last mite, yet themselves live on the fat. TWI is like that in many ways where they isolate themselves from direct contact with the despicable acts they initiate and so have the insolation of legal protection against those acts even if you have a legitimate case. This is the problem with trying to sue them right now - at best you're going to cause some lower level goon to be disciplined because they were stupid enough to do what they were told and loyal enough to "protect the ministry" and take the consequences. A lot of all that is why I think most people have just adopted the stance of just letting go and letting God deal with it. I'll be a witness against them at the bema. For now I can build my own life in positive directions like many of you are doing.

Or maybe they kept trying to get her to and she put them off until she was no longer able.

Since I was the one talking bans I just wanted to say the voting aspect would be there to express the collective opinion of people posting on the site, and would be something to forward to a moderator to consider the appropriate action to take against an individual. Ban, moderate posts, or whatever course of action necessary - I'm glad I brought it up. Having to argue every little point with these two on here is a complete waste of time. Maybe this type of action will reign them in a little. Beyond that, from my perspective I'm certainly not important enough where I think moderators need to please me with their actions. Run your site and your forums as you see fit. I'm glad they are around.

Oak, I'm not an innie but have enough contact with people who are to know a lot of this stuff. 1. Yes - Corps at HQ as of a couple years ago. Gunnison is only a vacation spot now where they run classes. No BOD member there anymore. 2. No, still in force. 3. Well, last year yes. This year the BOD is a new structure where the 5 pompous @sses are just "Board Members" with R0sie 0'Donnell R1venbark as the "Chairman of the Board". They even have new titles, like Donna as "Chief Administrative Officer" - hahahaha, and a CFO. They have people running things for them with titles. It's still all about politics and shining up to the right people. 4. Candidate = like old Apprentice year in local areas. Apprentice = assigned to go out Way Disciple and run a team. 2 yrs in-residence, then graduate. The old pillars are trying to convince their kids to go in now, with little success as Gen X/Y seem to have a few more brain cells than allowing all that control over them.

You know, Don, one interesting thing about that book is that it only covers time prior to the hippie days of the 70's. I've always wondered if that was because Dorothy felt that the time before VP got his motorcoach and started acting like Hugh Hefner was the only genuine part of the man and any positive influence he had. I always thought she was a sweet lady and was glad to know her, but in all honesty she probably was an enabler, if due nothing more to the strong character of the culture she grew up in preventing her from leaving him.

Yeah, when you get to thinking about it everybody looked at them like the next incarnation of the apostle Paul, yet in reality you could probably go into any random church in any town and pick out any random Christian that would have twice the moral Christian character of any of these idiots.

Yes, what bothers everyone is pretty universal. The problem with asking these two to apologize is it's never going to happen, along with them never stopping this type of activity. How long have we read this same type of drivel from these two? I mean one guy has a business interest to protect, and the other is probably a current TWI leader with a lot of time on their hands living off the ABS thinking they're 'protecting the ministry' by attacking victims. What exactly do they add to these forums?

Sure - I'm glad paw doesn't ban people quickly. I also agree that the normal squabbles that go on shouldn't be a cause to ban someone, or that community votes should be the method. Attacking a victim, now, in my opinion is a different story. I had enough of people attacking victims and covering up their actions in TWI. I don't need that kind of thing having discussions and/or debates on a site that is the only place that allows the uncovering of the BS. Everybody is pretty much sick of the pseudo courtroom type of posturing going on with these two clowns which completely bypass the intent of any law which is to provide a level playing field, not to cover up witness testimony. I mean, as much as it pains me to not provide a smoke screen for someone to peddle their old bootleg collections of VPW teachings and materials by keeping the VPW hype alive, I think I could live with that to get rid of some of the static. (OK, maybe it doesn't pain me that much). I'd just prefer that people's stories are allowed to be shared without the attacks.

Can we vote to ban WhiteDove and Oldiesman from the forums as punishment? Many forum sites impose this upon people for a period of time like 30 days as administrative action. Temp ban them for being bullies and continuously spewing the same BS attacking victims and acting like courtroom lawyers. Maybe if you temp ban them that will communicate what are acceptable posts. Or maybe they'll get all huffy and leave. Either way great.

Seeing it's your birthday, are you 65 yet? If so, you would be eligible for your own policy to step down from your high throne and become emeritus rather than continuing to garner power to yourself by placing yourself in the highest position you can. Do you plan to do this? If not, it is something you should seriously consider. There are broken lives and the innocent crying out which all witness against you calling for your demise. Listen to their voices and stop adding to their numbers. Since you have no idea how to do this, stepping down would be your best option. That would indeed be a happy birthday.

That's the difference between a genuine minister and false ministers. Genuine ministers are able to see the wounds of the sheep and apply dressings to heal. False ministers cause the wounds, deny their involvement, refuse to acknowledge that there are any wounds, if confronted by the abundance of evidence of the wounds they blame the sheep all the while themselves subsisting on that which the sheep provide. Also, their conscience is seared with a hot iron so they don't even see they are like that. Which is why you have to spell it out in terms a kindergartner can understand. Genuine ministers behave like the gentleman you describe above. False ministers behave like the BOD in TWI.

What is likely to happen is TWI consults with their Columbus attorneys, ABS $$ at work. They may or may not decide to draft some kind of ownership challenge letter to eBay. eBay probably has corporate policy in place for challenging ownership. They certainly have dealt with this before. eBay could potentially have liability making a mistake on either side - either as a fence for stolen goods, or for a lawsuit for opposing legal ownership sales. The latter would negatively affect their reputation as an online commerce entity, so they would likely pursue it rather than a policy like YouTube has - if you challenge video ownership, they take it down while it's being sorted out. There are real damages that could be made a case for if they take down an item for sale, so they likely have a level of burden of proof. The real likely scenario is that because eBay has $$$$, TWI may not pursue it beyond an initial letter. They only pursue small entities with less resources that they think they can push around with their capital. You know, like widows, small businesses, poor individuals, small churches, etc. And TWI has become a lot better at disguising what they spend on legal endeavors. They control the flow of information to their followers. As an example, how many TWI followers do you think have read even the publicly available financial statement posted in another thread? I would guess next to none. They completely bury any potentially damaging numbers, like the cost of retaining attorneys in Columbus, or the cost of pursuing the insurance company that dropped them like a hot potato after all the lawsuit payouts. I think one of those legal lawsuit documents disclosed that the BOD spend like over $20,000 per year on liability insurance on themselves. I mean how would you feel as a follower to know that more than all your annual ABS goes towards providing insurance for BOD members potentially breaking the law and getting sued?

I do think it's interesting all of the detail regarding various blends of Unitarian logic. The main reason why is that seems to be the primary area that divides out all of the types of groups from mainstream Christianity. Many times people absorbed in this type of logic will live seperatist lives from mainstream Christians and avoid any kind of integration. Is Christ divided? Apparantly due to man's ego he appears to be. Personally, most of the main concerns I have with STFI, TWI, etc., are the fruit which you see at the top leadership levels. People who feel they have been "called of God" and who amass political power in organizations seem to commit the greatest atrocities against their brothers and sisters in Christ. This can be true in trinitarian and unitarian organizations. STFI / CES you can read all the transcripts about personal prophecy, and how those "ordained" behave, prophecying against one another. In many cases what's in a person's heart associated with that seems to be more "entitlement". The megalomaniac viewpoint is that because they view their accumulated power as God given, those that present any form of opposition they view as opposing God, and therefore evil. Like the leaders at Jerusalem zealous for the law, they seemed to be somewhat as Paul states, but added nothing to him. That's what I ask myself. What do these people add to our lives?

No, it means claiming LEGAL guilt of said crimes is not provable. And trying to apply LEGAL standards to evaluation of the life of a deceased man is delusional. And you keep trying to steer the evaluation towards the LEGAL arena where it does not apply. The LEGAL arena could apply to the current behavior of TWI current leadership, and that is probably why they refuse to do much of anything in public. It's very transparent that you have some kind of view of VPW that you are personally attached to that you need to preserve. This is why instead of allowing the public MORAL evaluation of VPW's life you try and discount his victims saying they present opinions only not fact, trying to steer the whole evaluation criteria under the purview of LEGAL standards. That is what is delusional. I can judge VPW's life by whatever standards and criteria I damn well please. And 20+ years after his death his legacy is looking more and more like that of a drunken lecher that latched on to the Zeitgeist of the "free love Jesus movement" and took it for a ride for about 14 years from 1972 to 1986. And there's a reasonable case to be made that his totalitarian style of leadership combined with sexual deviancy is the primary thing that has been passed along to subsequent leadership administrations in TWI. These damn people act like they are more of an intermediary between the believer and the Lord Jesus Christ than a Catholic priest you have to confess your sins to. We are not judging VPW guilty of LEGAL crimes. At times there is speculation as to how the man actually survived without any LEGAL consequences. Or get shot by someone he abused's relatives. We are judging VPW guilty of MORAL crimes, based upon the testimony of many firsthand victims. He was a MORAL deviant. He was a totalitarian. LCM followed in his footsteps, and the current idiots also.

That is true that there are undocumented claims by physical evidence. So because VPW is deceased, he doesn't seem to have anyone to be able to respond with facts to be able to refute the claims laid against him. Many people who were around during the timeframes of these accusations can provide corroboration of facts involved in the stories. Of course, it is very available for any of VPW's relatives, or current members of TWI to come forward in public and provide facts that would discount stories. Trying to hold these claims to some level of legal standard is ludicrous. There is no court case as there is no defendant. That means there are no depositions, or any of the other legal artifacts that are a byproduct. Which means that someone trying to apply those standards is delusional.

One of the difficult things is that the people in TWI leadership that have and continue to perpetrate, foment, and support these atrocities cover up their actions. They will not discuss actions publicly, or allow any factual evidence to come to light that they can control. They spin personal accounts, and continue to mark and avoid people, which closes the ranks around their version of facts. Part of this is due to fear of legal repurcusssions. So reasonable logical people in the absense of actual factual evidence need to reconstruct factual evidence through sources that they judge as reliable although they may not be to the level required by a court. However, on the other side, court proceedings have leverage in place such as the deposition process and consequences for false or incomplete testimony that also are not available to the individual. In other words, that leverage makes it more difficult for leaders to lie to cover up their atrocities. A clear example of this is that leverage is what flushed out LCM acts which he previously lied about. So whether or not individual detailed personal accounts of atrocities are "documentable" or not is irrelevant. In a public forum, they can be laid out for examination. If the leaders being accused want to refute the accuracy of these claims, they are certainly welcome to do so in the same public forum.

Thanks for the verse, Mark!!! Merry Christmas to you and yours.

I would say that open communication helps develop better relationships between people. Since they have not brought it up to volunteer information if you want that you would have to initiate it. Many times people aren't very good at talking freely to others - there are barriers. You have a barrier of fear here - that somehow asking them about their life might trigger a negative mental reflex. They have a barrier - maybe they are ashamed, hurt, etc. You never know that until talking about it. I would say basically prepare what you want to ask and ask it. You can always ask "What happened?" questions in various forms, and "How do you feel about that?" and "What are you going to do now?" types of questions without needing to interject a soapbox stand of any kind.

Jeff, Great job with how you're handling all this. You guys are in my prayers. Because of freedom of will there's not a whole lot you can do to affect the negatives from coming at you. But you can focus on building the positives. I remember studying 2 Tim. 1:7 about fear as a negative and power, love, and a sound mind as positives. Sometimes it takes a lot more work in building the positives to overcome one negative. But that's how we'd rather live anyway. As you are faithful to build a positive continuing relationship with your son it will bear fruit. -cf

It's amazing the lengths deluded people will go to because they believe the end justifies the means. What's really funny about that one is that the damages were originallly set around $25M. The settlement was sealed, but speculation has it that it had to be upwards of $1M. Rosie and crew talked about how their insurance "paid" for it so they didn't have to use ABS money. However their "insurance" was very expensive to pay for, and for the later lawsuits the insurance company tried to drop them for cause. One of the unpublished lawsuits in play recently is TWI going after the insurance company for not covering damage settlements for one of the subsequent lawsuits. Tell me they aren't using "the tithe that doeth still provide" to pay lawyer fees, initially cover settlements, and buy expensive liability insurance for their abusive head honchos. That should really make people feel comfortable sending in their weekly check. NOT!!! They pay for that instead of putting on events for their people like they used to. One thing that I hate on this site is people always appealing to the process of law in defense of abusers. Many cases of abuse are not able to be covered up exactly because it became public knowledge and the sheer outcry of public opinion forced a semblance of justice. The latest OJ case is an example. There is no jury in America that would not nail him to the wall after the fiasco involved in the first case. GS is exactly such a resource. People can come here and read up on things that happen behind closed doors in TWI leadership circles from firsthand accounts. There's a reason why they happened behind closed doors. There's a reason why TWI leadership is secretive. Eph 5:12,13 talks about things done in secret and made manifest. When the secret abuse, greed, political posturing, covering up, and more are made public and manifest, then the light can reprove them. These leaders know what they are doing is wrong, and that is why they hide things and lie about them. They don't allow things to be brought to light, lest their deeds would be reproved, and public opinion could be brought into play regarding their real actions and motives of heart.