Rocky

Pretty much... yeah.

However, it's looking like the NLWest is still going to have strong pitching for the 2008 campaign.

Yeah... THAT's the one that counts, IMO... THAT is when spring starts.

That's pretty much how I look at this thread also.! :)

HEY! I heard THAT!

Schilling to Clemens: prove it! Clemens told to prove innocence or return awards Thu Dec 20, 12:23 PM ET NEW YORK (Reuters) - Boston Red Sox pitcher Curt Schilling has called on Roger Clemens to give up four of his Cy Young Awards if he cannot clear his name after allegations in the Mitchell report that he used steroids. While Clemens has denied allegations detailed by former Sen. George Mitchell's report into doping in Major League Baseball, Schilling wrote in his blog (38pitches.com) that he believes Clemens must take legal action to prove his innocence.continued...

Do you mean other than -- I don't believe him?

As do I.

Well, A-Rod last night, to me, when he answered THE question, looked like he was lying... but no way to really tell. However, the images of him taking swings in his custom made, home batting cage... well, the images alone were so-so... BUT with the SOUND?! That crack of the bat clearly lent credibility to everything he said in the interview. So, MY take is this -- IF with diligent testing, he always comes up with negative results... and if his performance doesn't take a nose dive, then A-Rod's off the hook completely. Clemens, well, NO way I'm believing him. Petitte... probably did what he had to do (this weekend, I mean). Everybody looking for (calculating) ways to minimize the damage. Petitte's will probably work. A-Rod's will probably work. No way am I believing Clemens... he just flat out denied any use. And THAT has to be bull hockey.

Yes... I'm aware of the big trading day the Dbacks had yesterday. I mentioned it on this thread, btw. Byrnes DID do good... and having traded Valverde, is NOT being criticized locally for doing so... THAT, IMO, is a very significant indicator of the incredible job he did yesterday. I'm pleased to see that the Dbacks got Qualls from Houston. He gave the Dbacks fits everytime he came in a game against us.

To my knowledge, this situation (notably, regarding A-Rod) is NOT related to "our legal system."

Apparently, enough people thought so that A-Rod felt compelled to come out and flat out deny steroids use. And didn't use the kind of language that Bonds did. A-Rod apparently said "I have never used steroids!"

When I think of Roger Clemens, I think of the bozo that threw the spear end of a broken bat at what's his name... the catcher... Mike Piazza.

Well... that's the point I was trying to make -- that to really take any serious action against anyone in particular, you'll need much stronger evidence than is noted in the Mitchell report. And the union AIN'T gonna make it easy to do that.

Yeah... Tom, what ARE you saying? Yes, Petitte was trying to speed up the elbow healing... but what about Clemons?

I don't know anything about Petitte (other than the Dbacks beat him in the 2001 WS) and I don't know what Clemens is saying... but I'd bet Clemens is lying, no matter what he's saying. I've felt for a long time that he's got a cheaters' mentality. :blink: And the Dbacks picked up Dan Haren today! An excellent move, IMO.

And, especially for the sake of teenagers now and in the decades to come... make major examples of the cost of using... in every way that cost can be portrayed.

I like those ideas. Yet, I don't think background checks on "clubbies" will put a stop to anything. Tracking packages, however, could be helpful... but I'm thinking that guys with lots of spending money and mischief on their minds can find plenty of ways around that too... can you say "Mailboxes, Etc."?

I hope you're right on that.

If Fehr has his way, this WILL be all for naught. That's more or less what I expected. Hiway... it won't be nearly as bad for the named players as you suspect... One day of weeping and gnashing of teeth and a life time of sweeping (under rugs). And I don't know what Selig's going to be able to do... that could have simply been first day bluster... the union's going to go to bat for any of them that face any repercussions from the league... and that alone WILL obscure the issues. BUT... IF they do blood testing, then we can say they will have made progress. The most significant thing that needed (still needs) to get addressed is the cultural impact on youth wanting to develop themselves into professional athletes. THAT youths feel they can and should do steroids has got to change.

Was that Dizzy Dean (not to be confused with Howard! ) and guys who played in that era? btw, Mr. Corked Bat (Sammy), though not mentioned in the report, is thought to be a steroid user, I think...?

What the report does is use the names of guys they had somebody provide evidence on. Like with Dbacks' Alex Cabrera... it doesn't say "he used steroids" but does say that the team intercepted a package, told Cabrera the package had gotten lost, sent the contents to the DEA for analysis, and this is what they found in the package. But before the DEA could report, Cabrera was playing in Japan, so they didn't bother asking the union for permission to test him. It seems there's a lot of that kind of thing. Which boils down to circumstantial evidence against individuals, but so many incidents that the case is made that the entire culture of MLB is saturated with steroids. btw, I took a nap... so, I didn't listen to Bud or Donald.

That was my initial reaction to seeing Pujols name... he's supposed to be one of the good guys... however, he did have a hard time last season... perhaps due to coming off of steroids. I'm not sure Giamatti would have been able to do any different than what we've seen. Fay Vincent, wasn't he forced out to make room for Selig? I read last night in the NYTimes that Vincent had wanted to try to do something about steroids... I'll be very interested in what he might have to say in the next days...

I searched the report for the word Arizona and came up with several names. It's also likely that many big names NOT in the report are cheaters even though not in the report. And some of the names are associated with steroids and some only with HGH. I'm not making the distinction yet. Arizona names: Jason Grimsley P Jack Cust 1B, has played in the majors, but was in the Dbacks farm system Chris Donnels inf played for several teams, never really made a consistent career, but did play some games for the Dbacks. Stephen Randolph P played a season or two with the Dbacks... mainly a reliever... eventually was traded... may not be playing anymore. Matt Herges P few games with Dbacks... many more games with other teams. Troy Glaus 3B one season with Dbacks... wasn't he WS MVP one year? went to Toronto after Dbacks. Jose Guillen OF very little time with Dbacks... later played with Seattle. and of course, Matt Williams. Again, this is only a very limited set of findings on individuals... but clear evidence of a pervasive drug culture in MLB. I also understand the players union will soon have a press conference, as will MLB. And Tom, I'm not in denial about Dbacks using steroids or HGH... My comment last night was simply a reflection that there's no obvious power hitter getting significant advantage via steroids currently on the team... obviously, that doesn't mean there's no current users. Mitchell bluntly replied to a reporter asking about whether he was prepared to respond to subpeonas, by saying there is no evidence that any federal prosecutor has or will go after any individual user... Mitchell recommends NO punishment for those cited in his report. Those PLAYERS named in the report, that is.

I got the .pdf file... it's a total of 409 pages. There is NO one single list page with player names. I did find one interesting item in it so far. In 2000, a long time minor leaguer, Alex Cabrera, played 31 games with the Dbacks. He his a MASSIVE HR in his first major league at bat. It always caused me to wonder why this guy didn't stay with the team. He went on to become a major HR hitter in Japan. He is named as a person who had steroids shipped to him at the BOB. Apparently, in at least one incident, such a shipment was intercepted by the team which reported it to the league and sent the drugs to the DEA for analysis. The package apparently included over the counter diet pills AND injectable steroids. Apparently, Matt Williams is named in the report, but I have not found that yet... and apparently, Luis Gonzales is NOT included. But Juan Gonzales IS named. Anyway, I have the Mitchell press conference on ESPN on my tv right now... it's in the Q and A stage... It looks like Clemens is going to be a primary focus of media questions and subsequent reports.